"Like the Forums on Crack"

From Sept. 8 transcript of Metaverse Justice Watch group IM -- from where I tuned in after two events, where someone pulled an "officer recall" on Jauani Wu anonymously (that's how the system works) and Jauani himself, right before that recall, issued a proposal about having a "democratic" vote in the group for officer in contrast with my "bolshevik" call for no elections given the wackiness, uninformed, and chance nature of the group.

Just to give an explanation of vote after the vote, I voted "yes" to recall Jauani, despite my loathing of this pernicious institution, because I not only couldn't think of what else to do at the time the notice came, I just felt it was time to try to signal that Jauani should end his griefing of the group and his hideous and hypocritical pretentions that he is there on good faith.

I voted "no" for his proposals that we should have elections with the group as is, because I reject elections in groups of this nature as demagogic and manipulatable, and I also refuse to bus in tenants and friends to "Compete" on the "ballot".

I view this problem of fake democracy and allegations of bolshevism as not unlike the Algerian problem. If you have to ask, well, google. It's bad. Democracy can yield up tyrannical rule by rogues like Jauani, who has bussed in his pals from the old SimArts (of which Coco and I were also once members in TSO) as well as the worst of the worst of the forum hectorers, to harass me over my desire to remain in this group, and have it be structured as a likeminded, small group of people who figure out an effective program of principles and proposed actions and promote it -- without the arrogance that they "represent all SL".

***

Jauani Wu: i think we were talking about neu-burger as an example .. zugs is gone
Jauani Wu: so let me scroll up and get my bearing
Aimee Weber: mmmm burger
Prokofy Neva: Plotting coups again, J-Wu?
Verbena Pennyfeather: Ok, lets talk about a small group of SL residents trying to affect the whole, and the good bad and ugly about it
Jauani Wu: well i do know that verb you put forth some challenges to the inclusivity of this group
Jauani Wu: that went unanswered
Cocoanut Koala: Prok, it turns out many of the people in this group
Cocoanut Koala: have never read the "Preperation notes 31-Aug-05"
Cocoanut Koala: which lays out the ideas this group started with
Jauani Wu: no we were discussing the lobby
Jauani Wu: and membership
Cocoanut Koala: So I passed those out to all interested
Cocoanut Koala: including new officer Ulrika
Cocoanut Koala: and Verbena.
Prokofy Neva: Yes by all means, and pass out the letter to Phil and ask me for the complete set of all things put out to date
Verbena Pennyfeather: My idea is, personally, that you cannot and should not lobby LL for changes in core SL policy and ideas, without having a good cross-represntation of the entire group of SL residents.
Jauani Wu: coco pput forth that dissenting people should leave.  verb challenged it.  cocoa's response is forthcoming we pressume
Prokofy Neva: Geez, not enough that Ulrika has to have socialism in one sim, now coming to spread it further eh lol?
Cocoanut Koala: My response is that I said Jauani should apologize for lying to everyone in the group that I instituted the officer recall on him.
Verbena Pennyfeather: Nor would LL take a group seriously, about core changes to SL, without a good cross-section, which includes dissenters.
Prokofy Neva: I don't believe any group can make that claim Verbena, and that is not what we attempted originally
Jauani Wu: ulrika has a lot of experience lobbying sl.  she once got a whole sim for free for half a year.  so she can help us
Cocoanut Koala: Verbena, I feel LL can listen to ALL such groups.  Just like inthe real world.
Cocoanut Koala: In the real world, we don't have just "one" group to represent everyone's interests.
Prokofy Neva: Groups packed by griefers by one or two officers trying to jockey and posture is political theater, not a group and elections are a sham when some poeople pack the group and others don't
Prokofy Neva: Totally, this is not a government
Prokofy Neva: it was a group with a set of very specific issues about leveling the playing field in SL
Jauani Wu: prokoy we are having a serious conversation.  please keep your power plays for later thank you
Verbena Pennyfeather: Example, Cocoa.  Group A lobbies to disconnect totally RL$ form L$.  Group B wants an even closer integration.
Cocoanut Koala: Jauani, you can't silence people like you try to.
Prokofy Neva: Ulrika can work her plans for world government from her free sims, Juani, she doesn't need to be hectoring us in this group -- and you've only brought her in to be obnoxious and you know it
Jauani Wu: cocoa: "hush up"
Jauani Wu: oops sorry
Jauani Wu: i take that back
Cocoanut Koala: Right, Verbena.  No such group has any power to make those things happen, so LL listens to them all.
Jauani Wu: before you diatribe
Cocoanut Koala: They will do as they feel is best, or want to, regardless.
Verbena Pennyfeather: Now, given the idea to keep dissenters out of each group, we would be presenting two polar opposites to LL, and asking them to decide, as opposed to one group coming up with a mutual plan that everyone accepts, and presenting en-masse
Cocoanut Koala: I don't think that will happen, though, Verbena.
Jauani Wu: prok: this group is not related to neu - burger.  i think ulrika understands to limit her ambitions here
Cocoanut Koala: I have pretty good faith in the messy democratic process.
Jauani Wu: prok: people can participate in many projects.  most people are versatile like that
Prokofy Neva: It's not "keeping dissenters out" Verbena, there will be lots of groups, and you need to work with people you can trust and who care about the same issies
Prokofy Neva: Juania is showing myself to be just a griefer and hectorer, he's just running hate campaigns and posturing
Cocoanut Koala: That's why I gave you the notecard, so you could get an idea what the group was about.
Prokofy Neva: I'm not bussing my tenants, cronies, friends, relatives and God knows what into this group as he is doing and as Anshe did
Verbena Pennyfeather: I'm all for messy democratic proccess, but you run into what I think of as the "Iraq vote syndrome"  Anyone remember the 99% positive fote for saddam, he had back in the day?
Jauani Wu: prok: i think your postings on the herald today against aimee and cubey were where the haite campaign was headed.  not my way
Prokofy Neva: That notecard isn't even "what the group is about" in the sense that we had ONE DAY to draft it and we never got to discuss it -- it's just a draft outline for the purpose of originally meeting with the Lindens
Prokofy Neva: I stand by my postings, and they are not hate campaigns, they are a legitimate concern
Cocoanut Koala: Well, we also now have Concerned Citizens (anshe's new group) and RAC, which Lordfly is titular head of.
Cocoanut Koala: So already we have three.
Cocoanut Koala: EAch wishes to put forward what its members want most.
Prokofy Neva: you aren't proposing a slate of issues to raise Jauani, you're just trying to play high school government and bring in your clique and kick out your enemies
Prokofy Neva: it's silly
Jauani Wu: prok: if you don't have a solid idea than don't solicit members.  if you solicit members and kick out the leader by not cooperating, then prepare for a new concensus
Prokofy Neva: No, this group represents NO group of likeminded
Verbena Pennyfeather: All of which, will of course have the 99% agreement voted with anything the group of like-minded people agree to.
Prokofy Neva: it is a stage merely for griefing and theatrics
Prokofy Neva: I refuse to work that way
Cocoanut Koala: Yes.  More or less.  But they represent ONLY their own group!
Jauani Wu: i've brought in some very useful, intelligent and well connected players to further the lobby.  please don't malign my efforts
Cocoanut Koala: This group was never intended to be a government, or to represent everyone.
Verbena Pennyfeather: But, when they present themselves to LL, and use the guise of a democratc vote to persue their own agendas, which might not be beneficial to SL as a whole.
Cocoanut Koala: They are using the guise only of a lobby or special interest group.
Jauani Wu: prok: why are you trying to hold up our progress.  we were having a good conversation just before you showed up.  please participate constructively
Cocoanut Koala: They don't intend to stand for something like a full-resident vote.
Jauani Wu: yes i agree coco: we can't be a government
Jauani Wu: this group can not be about telling players how to play
Prokofy Neva: YOu aren't serious about any groups Jauani, you just glommed on to this at the 11th hour and ignored most of the work that went into it
Cocoanut Koala: Which it never was.
Verbena Pennyfeather: THe problem I've seen with lobby groups, and if it follows true in SL, is that if there is noone to disagree, the idea generally swings to the lobbying group.
Prokofy Neva: if you need a group, work with Nberg where you are a member
Jauani Wu: but to tell LL what players want, expect, demand, desire
Cocoanut Koala: To tell LL what WE players want and desire is totally legitimate.
Cocoanut Koala: We in the group.
Jauani Wu: prok: i was on vacation ok! sorry for having a first life. i play that one too still
Cocoanut Koala: Who originally basically agreed on the notecard I sent out.
Prokofy Neva: Jauani this group is ALREADY about telling players how to play because you're telling people who made a group of serious people to work on the issues to overthrow themselves with fake elections which you run by bussing in SimArtians
Cocoanut Koala: Sim Arts?
Verbena Pennyfeather: True, and I disagree with some key points, so I join discussion here, not so much to cause grief and drama, but to come up with more and different ideas, and to present a more refined case to LL itself.
Prokofy Neva: I mean Barnes, Toast, etc.
Prokofy Neva: the way he brought in ilke 6 officers at once so he could posture and do political theater and put steaks in the icon and all the rest
Cocoanut Koala: Oh - well I am in SimArts
Prokofy Neva: Yeah me too : )
Jauani Wu: prok: i joined this group when you did.  and i recruiter good people.  you recruited noone.  instead you pushed out anshe by not cooperating .  no stop talking about the past. let's move forward.
Cocoanut Koala: lol
Cocoanut Koala: Prok did NOT push out Anshe.
Prokofy Neva: Jauani, I don't recruit people to a group being griefed by you and waste their time
Cocoanut Koala: By your own admission, you weren't here.
Verbena Pennyfeather: And, as for the group itself, I DO see a disparity of "normal" players as officers, and "high end" players.
Prokofy Neva: and a group that doesn't stick to a program open to all and in which all participated in drafting
Cocoanut Koala: Verbena, I think that is because the high-end players were getting nervous by the GOM thing, etc.
Cocoanut Koala: Can't blame them.
Cocoanut Koala: I believe things like that really should have more imput from players before they are put into place.
Jauani Wu: prok: i invited people with integrity to stabilize this group because it was clear you were playing power politics to push out all dissenters as you still do, demanding people to go to other groups.  why don't YOU go to another group?
Prokofy Neva: Yes, we decided to get together to raise concerns and guess what, we didn't raise telehub compensation like people so foolishly claim but the basic ground rules of SL itself
Cocoanut Koala: You are just being ridiculous, Jauani.
Prokofy Neva: We did not form a government or pretend fake representatin -- Anshe introduced that when she saw the moment might be right for her to seize control ike she did in Shadowbane
Prokofy Neva: she ran whole realms in Shadowbane for 3 years and she sees this as  a similar venue
Cocoanut Koala: Anshe worked with me to schedule the meetings.
Cocoanut Koala: One for the officers, and then member meetings start.
Jauani Wu: it's not government - it's electing leaders of the lobby
Cocoanut Koala: We sent out the notices.
Prokofy Neva: Anshe was confronted about her bussing tactics and *closing the group* before elections -- which is undemocratic Jauani
Prokofy Neva: catch up on the real situation please
Jauani Wu: this is what LL wants
Cocoanut Koala: By the time I got online the next day, she had already started scheduling electings BEFORE even the officers could get together!
Cocoanut Koala: I've explained that a number of times now.
Jauani Wu: LL wants community groups to be representative
Prokofy Neva: Anshe did not participate with the other officers in an open decision to hold elections, which might have been done
Cocoanut Koala: In detail.
Verbena Pennyfeather: And, as I've said, Anshe has a singular agenda in SL, agree or not.
Prokofy Neva: she unilaterally called them and packed the group with tenants then shut it to new members, geez, that's clear
Cocoanut Koala: We could not possibly hold elections BY Sunday, before even all the officers met.
Cocoanut Koala: And then she invited in all her tenants.
Jauani Wu: coco: enough of your reciting your opus.  you must be cut pasting it by now
Cocoanut Koala: The reason she did this was she didn't want to work with prok one more minute.
Cocoanut Koala: Jauani, when are we going to be done with you reciting your own fallacious version of history?
Prokofy Neva: I wouldn't be in a group of that type with Anshe pretending to represente "cross sections of SL" -- I was in it with her merely for the very narrowly-defined project of getting LL to establish rules about conflicts of interest
Cocoanut Koala: Which, I might add, you weren't even in on?
Cocoanut Koala: If Prok had quit, Anshe would still be here.
Jauani Wu: i'm barely even talking cocoa.  you too are spamming the air with anti anshe talk
Cocoanut Koala: He wouldn't; she quit.  The end.
Cocoanut Koala: She was ramroding elections through without any of the officers even knowing about it.
Prokofy Neva: BTW: He's the one who wants elections and claims I'm the bolshevik and he's the democrat? So why didn't he stand in that election, instead he left the group and got someone to invite him in to avoid election
Cocoanut Koala: And preparing herself, by bussing in voters.
Jauani Wu: right because prok is stubborn to control everything, demanding me to leave the group the day i returned
Prokofy Neva: I view any such election as illegimiate
Prokofy Neva: Jauani, you rae not in good faith
Cocoanut Koala: There was simply not enough time to do that.
Jauani Wu: prok: I was on vacation.  are you a moron?
Prokofy Neva: and I didn't deman you leave the group, I said that you are not in good faith to work on these issues and evidently
Prokofy Neva: we don't share the same views
Cocoanut Koala: For anyone interested, I laid out exactly what happened in my post on the general forums, entitled, "My Statement on the MJW Thing."
Prokofy Neva: you don't think we need the 10 percent bonus and you ally yourself with Nberg and don't see a problem with the favouritism they hvae
Verbena Pennyfeather: Officers of the group should simply be this..representatives of what the group, as a whole, feels is correct.
Prokofy Neva: so we're not on the same page here in terms of rules of the road
Prokofy Neva: I disagree Verbena
Jauani Wu: prok: those are seperate issues
Verbena Pennyfeather: Not because they have integrity, or make tons of money, or are the current awsome person of the day.
Cocoanut Koala: Anshe is not making these same mistakes in her new group.
Prokofy Neva: This group is a chaotic mess that signifies nothing, no real process of thoughtful invitation, but just "IM Democracy"
Jauani Wu: tis is not a forum to discuss your 10% tier donation scam
Jauani Wu: that is for another arena
Prokofy Neva: I am for 30 people who agree already making a group and then electing from among themselves officers then expanding
Cocoanut Koala: BUT - if ANYBODY pushed out ANYBODY, it was Anshe, working behind the scenes to do whatever it took to push out Prok.
Prokofy Neva: BTW Thinkers doesn't elect their officers out of some mass group, they don't elect them at all!
Cocoanut Koala: I still support Anshe, her concerns, and her new group.
Jauani Wu: this is about lobbying LL for changes to the game to benefit players
Prokofy Neva: nor does SL Education Senate or many groups, like Friends of the Forest
Cocoanut Koala: So to say that I or Prok worked to push out Anshe that weekend is a falsehood of the highest order.
Prokofy Neva: I actually don't think it's a good idea to keep meeting with Philip so the "lobby LL" part needs to be redefined
Verbena Pennyfeather: And, how many of those groups wish to change the core ideals of SL, Prok?
Cocoanut Koala: We became aware belatedly of her own efforts to get rid of Prok.
Prokofy Neva: a lot has happened since we met with him, one of which is that 2 other groups met with that express purpose Jauani
Prokofy Neva: why not join them?
Prokofy Neva: and the Lindens formed their own coopted round table process for the community
Jauani Wu: prok: why don't you go make your own group then? cause like you wouldn' leave when anshe wanted elections, i won't leave when you DON't want elections
Jauani Wu: and that's the end of it
Prokofy Neva: so go to that? like we did? And work at the difficulties of dealing with that? in good faith?
Prokofy Neva: That's fine Jauani, but then I'll consider this a group that is not authentic
Prokofy Neva: because you're not serious in it
Cocoanut Koala: Well, Verbena, the ideas in the notecard actually promote Linden Philosophy.
Prokofy Neva: you can't put forth a positive program as we attempted to do already
Prokofy Neva: you ahven't even attended a single meeting yet
Prokofy Neva: we've had 3
Cocoanut Koala: They enable us to have more to do with the world.
Verbena Pennyfeather: ALlow me to re-read a smidge, COcoa
Cocoanut Koala: ok
Jauani Wu: prok: who cares what you consider? you think everyone is corrupt, depraved and mediocre except yourself.  you attack everyones accomplishments through your lense of bitterness
Cocoanut Koala: Personal attack - irrelevant.
Jauani Wu: i won't apologize for being young and beautiful to you
Cocoanut Koala: lol
Cocoanut Koala: modest, too
Prokofy Neva: Jauani, you heckled and harassed me on the forums mercilessly, making up all kinds of lies and accusations about me to posture and feel good about yourself. Do you honestly think I'll work with you on a serious project after that?
Verbena Pennyfeather: Ok, Cocoa, Some things I would like to pick on.
Jauani Wu: prok: i never harassed or heckled you
Prokofy Neva: What is your lense Jauani?
Cocoanut Koala: ok
Verbena Pennyfeather: Lets take invisibile lindens for an example.
Jauani Wu: i had one debate with you on tier donation period
Cocoanut Koala: ok
Prokofy Neva: Oh, calling me a pyramid schemer for my open and effective tier donation program? hummm?
Jauani Wu: my lense is rose coloured
Verbena Pennyfeather: Now, the points themselves are pretty decent, but for the..lets say integrity of SL, they put LL in a bad position.
Cocoanut Koala: For example?
Verbena Pennyfeather: Lets take "Under what circumstances".
Cocoanut Koala: (got my card up)
Verbena Pennyfeather: Now, if I knew this tidbit of information as a griefer, I could potentially use it against LL.
Cocoanut Koala: as in, they didn't have an arrest warrent or something like that?
Verbena Pennyfeather: Close analogy, actually.
Cocoanut Koala: yeah, that sort of technicality
Verbena Pennyfeather: Basically, I could use it to "skirt" the rules of invisibile lindens, and stay out of trouble.
Prokofy Neva: Verbena, could i Just remind you that PHilip and Robin Linden not only met with us and greeted us and didn't get worried about us harming their product
Prokofy Neva: they suggested follow up meetings and they will me with Lordfly's group AND they made another community meeting process
Prokofy Neva: these are not people who share your nervousness for their future and their position LOL
Cocoanut Koala: Onthat section, I would like to know who has access - i dont care much about definition of circumstances
Verbena Pennyfeather: Thank you, Prok, but I'm discussing points with Cocoa that I'd like to think on.  If you want to inject points of your own, please feel free.
Cocoanut Koala: But the idea of notification is a good one.
Cocoanut Koala: (not that i wrote these)
Verbena Pennyfeather: Notification should always be after the fact, though.
Cocoanut Koala: yes
Verbena Pennyfeather: In fact, notification after the entire "operation" is completed.
Cocoanut Koala: sure
Cocoanut Koala: can't very well do a sting if you warn the perps
Cocoanut Koala: in advance
Prokofy Neva: OH ok Verbenea I thought it was the group discussion sry
Cocoanut Koala: I think she just means to discuss the points specifically, prok
Verbena Pennyfeather: It is, Prok.  Feel free to discuss along!
Cocoanut Koala: hey i have a question prok
Cocoanut Koala: it came up earlier
Cocoanut Koala: who exactly was in on writing these?
Prokofy Neva: Coco, this idea of the invisible Lindens is Anshe's idea, which others couldn't see a reason not to sign on to at that point
Verbena Pennyfeather: So, regarding the entirity of knowing "what circumstances" in regards to Linden actions..I think it's a bad idea to know these before hand.
Cocoanut Koala: i thought that would be the case in many of the points.
Prokofy Neva: I repeatedl pointed out that I have no issue with invisible Lindens, it's not my issue and until proven they exist even, I can't function on it
Cocoanut Koala: Who all was in on writing this?
Prokofy Neva: Originally there were 10 of us holding a meeting taking 4 hours to write a letter to Phil
Cocoanut Koala: oh dear phone
Prokofy Neva: And during that time we also drafted talking points
Prokofy Neva: then Anshe rewrote these entirely and made her own card to read in the meeting with him, then we took that back and started trying to correct it
Jauani Wu: i think personally think it's important to discuss who has access to invisible mode, but the notification i'm not concerned about
Prokofy Neva: then the group split -- it's an incompletely, and really at this point insignifant document -- these are talkingpoints , not a charter, a statement of principles is not drafted and that's what I'd be doing now if we didn't have this griefing operation un
Verbena Pennyfeather: Yes, knowing WHO has access to it is imporant..but knowing why and what circumstances they use it, is a bad precedent.
Prokofy Neva: No one in this group got to see anything to sign on to!
Jauani Wu: my concern with the whole issue is that most liasons are active members of the player community.  most are parttimers
Prokofy Neva: No one in this group k nows what it is ABOUT or FOR or PARTICIPATED in drafting anytihng!
Prokofy Neva: so it is ridiculous to force elections when we have no group effort to draft principles we SHARE
Prokofy Neva: that has to come FIRST
Verbena Pennyfeather: I can agree with that, Jau.  I can trust Linden impartilaity to a point.
Jauani Wu: prok: we can still discuss these points
Jauani Wu: because they can lead to our next draft
Prokofy Neva: well I'm just pointing out that they aren't some list of real hard and fast positions, I for example don't believe there are "invisible" Lidnens not visible in the world as avatars
Jauani Wu: prok we can have elections based on peoples views and reputations and ability
Prokofy Neva: We don't know who thinks what Jauani
Verbena Pennyfeather: I personally feel, that Lindens shouldn't have "serious" alts.
Prokofy Neva: THis group is filled with people who not only don't know each other, they don't know what each other thinks
Prokofy Neva: what would serious mean Verbena?
Cocoanut Koala: they haven't even seen the notecards
Prokofy Neva: like owning a lot of land or a busienss? That has been discussed I think, but where would the line be draqwn
Cocoanut Koala: (she says between conversation on phone)
Jauani Wu: there are.  we have been told since before the game went live that there are.  and lindens have told us that there are.  lindens can move undetected and lindens can read logs which is an invisible form of surveillance
Verbena Pennyfeather: Mmmkay, my definition of serious would be, making X dollars of profit from the game, for X to be decided on.
Verbena Pennyfeather: Once you reach a certian line in the sand, you can't trust impartiality of the Linden from furthering their own interests
Jauani Wu: prok: for example: people who want action, not just criticism and disdain might opt to not vote for you.  people who don't like sarcasm and extended absences from sl ( days at a time) might not vote for me
Prokofy Neva: Jauani, I take action and may I remind you that it is I who put forth to MJW the platform of an ethics guide for Lindens and a request to publish it
Prokofy Neva: and that is the *one action item* we are getting from them now, interestingly
Prokofy Neva: I can give you many other instances of my actions and my results but this isn't a campaign, it's either a group that trusts each other or doesn't
Jauani Wu: ok so you have proven you can take action.  perhaps people will be impressed
Prokofy Neva: I don't need to impress people Jauani, I need to set out a principles to see if others share them
Cocoanut Koala: people have not only been impressed, it has changed the game fundamentally.
Jauani Wu: like the posecube?
Prokofy Neva: what I find from the forums is that many people in the five-percent think the entire exercise of asking the Lindens anything is illegitimate
Cocoanut Koala: yes, like the posecube.
Verbena Pennyfeather: I'll whip out my brutal honesty here.  I can agree with quite a few things Prok states, but I feel he clouds his judgement of the core issues in....conspiracies.
Prokofy Neva: and I think they are not in touch with the reality of the situation which is the Lindens realize they need more accountablity -- they don't throw the Jeska Linden posing thing out of consideration, it's the forum FIC that does
Jauani Wu: well noone here thinks its illigetimate
Jauani Wu: or we wouldn't be here
Prokofy Neva: are you sure?
Jauani Wu: yes
Cocoanut Koala: thinks what is legitimate?
Prokofy Neva: Verbena, there's no conspiracy, there is a set of attitudes that are displayed frequently and prominently
Jauani Wu: everyone in this converation agrees lobbying is essential or useful at the very least.  we might not aagree on the points to lobby yet
Prokofy Neva: the calling to account of the Lindens -- thinks that is legit
Verbena Pennyfeather: I can agree with that, Prof.
Cocoanut Koala: well we DID have the points to lobby on
Prokofy Neva: OK I'm glad we do share that among those online Jauani, I can't be sure those offline agree tho
Cocoanut Koala: they were in that notecard.
Jauani Wu: verb: i feel similarly to you about proks analysis
Verbena Pennyfeather: OK, lets agree on some things real fast, ok.
Verbena Pennyfeather: We have these points in common, right now
Verbena Pennyfeather: Lobbying is a good idea
Verbena Pennyfeather: The notecard is a rough draft
Cocoanut Koala: yes
Verbena Pennyfeather: Not everyone here agrees with each other.
Jauani Wu: people have been lobbying sl for years.  and prok has spoken of it at length.  the problem in that was the way it was presented
Jauani Wu: no the lobbying will just be done overtly
Jauani Wu: and transparently
Verbena Pennyfeather: Now, lets take these three points, and use them to our advantage, as opposed to the namecalling and fighting.
Prokofy Neva: There was nothing secret about this lobbying
Jauani Wu: now
Prokofy Neva: It was avoided to put it on the events calendar precisely to avoid the kind of griefing and heckling it is undergoing
Prokofy Neva: the Lindens don't meet with grous in secret and organize cabals so simply Jauani
Prokofy Neva: REad the transcript
Jauani Wu: prok: i mean the lobbying taking place for the last few years
Prokofy Neva: The Messenger and the Editorial Hare guy were there and were not expelled by any body
Jauani Wu: read what i write. d on't assume
Prokofy Neva: wel lthat is what has been secret sure
Verbena Pennyfeather: Ok, everyone, one second.
Jauani Wu: verbena: i hope you run to lead this group :)
Verbena Pennyfeather: I'm gonna start a new notecard.  Now, civily, lets list our agreements on things.
Prokofy Neva: mindful that as just a handful of people online in a very chaotic group such a card is only a draft
Verbena Pennyfeather: Of course, I expect, and want refinement of anything put down.
Jauani Wu: we agree that LL should give assurances of which level of LL players are allowed to survey us invisibly in RT or in chat logs
Prokofy Neva: ok great
Verbena Pennyfeather: Now, lets get topics that, right now, we agree on.
Verbena Pennyfeather: Start simpler, Jau, but good idea.
Prokofy Neva: level? you mean office Lindens?
Jauani Wu: which category of lindens perhaps is a better way to state it
Verbena Pennyfeather: Lobbying LL should be transparent and open to all users, involved or not.
Cocoanut Koala: this group needs to decide these things in scheduled meetings.
Prokofy Neva: well we can get a draft going now tho no harm in that
Prokofy Neva: then have a schedule meeting on the events list
Cocoanut Koala: ok
Jauani Wu: good point cocoa.  we should add this to an agenda.  but we can have a tete a tete now
Verbena Pennyfeather: Example.  If Group A wishes to present something to LL, Everyone who has an interest should be made aware.
Verbena Pennyfeather: However, it's up to those who wish to know, to enlighten themselves on the topic.
Prokofy Neva: Verbena, that's precisely the meaning of the word stakeholder which isn't the discredited thing many think: it means everyone AFFECTED by a decision or INTERESTED in it
Verbena Pennyfeather: Semantics aside, is this something we can agree on now?
Prokofy Neva: yes
Jauani Wu: everyone in the group? or everyone in sl?
Cocoanut Koala: sorry - agtree to what?  (still on phone)
Verbena Pennyfeather: Everyone in SL.  The information should be avibile t o anyone who asks.
Verbena Pennyfeather: What I'm getting at is, if LL is considering a change to SL, and the change was iniatied by a person or group of people that that information should be avaibile tothe general SL populace, and not hidden away
Jauani Wu: certainly i agree, but in a group forum or website
Jauani Wu: or politics section
Prokofy Neva: It's hard for me to consider that there's be an example of a group that would swing LL to doing something without the entire community knowing from LL.
Prokofy Neva: Yet that sort of thing happens informally for reasons not alwayes clear -- like the intention in 1.7 to simply remove the "land for sale" tab on the map.
Verbena Pennyfeather: That's what we need to know more about, Prok.
Jauani Wu: has that question been asked on the hotline?
Verbena Pennyfeather: So, transparent lobbying is a go.
Jauani Wu: that is what a support
Verbena Pennyfeather: Next thing to quickly debate.  In the eyes of Linden Labs, every user is equal.
Jauani Wu: unlikely
Verbena Pennyfeather: Time in game, money, amount of land owned, content created should not be an influence on any decision LL makes regarding users.
Jauani Wu: prok is more equal than us.  she tiers more sims.  neph is more equal than prok, she makes clothing for thousands of players
Verbena Pennyfeather: Which I feel is a serious problem.  If I, for example, wish to air grievance against, say, Prok, then what either of us do in-game should have no bearing on LL decisions.
Jauani Wu: that is why the lobby is important.  to make sure LL knows that there as so many endusers who may add up to be equal enough
Jauani Wu: it depends on what the grievance is too
Jauani Wu: i'm sure hate speach or extereme behaviour would get anyone banned
Verbena Pennyfeather: I'm trying to kill two birds with one stone in that statement.  One, the idea that because someone does "more" in SL that they are more important, and two, that the idea that someone is "just a user" and is unimportant.
Verbena Pennyfeather: and Jau, nyet.  stop enticing.
Jauani Wu: although i remember critiano documenting a time that some one spread hate speach and he reported it and there was no action by LL and the player continued to play months later
Prokofy Neva: Jauani, you should not be giving out RL information that is not on a resident's profile in the game, number one
Jauani Wu: oops sorry
Prokofy Neva: Number two, you are full of shit about "tier more sims" because I've never raised any point that such tiering makes me BETTER
Verbena Pennyfeather: Prok, woah, slow down.
Jauani Wu: i didn't realise the implications ie proks forum suspension
Prokofy Neva: I've said that what must be done is that we have EQUALITY to the content creators who have pride of place, that's all
Jauani Wu: it was accidental
Verbena Pennyfeather: OK, Accident, stop, all.  DOn't care if it was an "accident" or not.  We're doing good.
Jauani Wu: oh sorry if i used a gender word
Prokofy Neva: *cough*
Prokofy Neva: You just said Neph is more equal than me for making more clothes
Prokofy Neva: and that's exactly the attitude I mean
Verbena Pennyfeather: Getting back to the point, all users hould be equal.
Prokofy Neva: and Isee a lot of your harassment of me is driven by some insane notion that I tier more sims and thereofre you have to take me down
Verbena Pennyfeather: And I'm going to see that as an example form Jau, Prok, and I ask you see the same, please.
Jauani Wu: yeah i'm talking from what i percieve is a LL perspective
Jauani Wu: not my belief
Prokofy Neva: So stop, because i'm not claiming that tier gives pride of place I just say it is *also* stake and must be recognized, which it is not
Jauani Wu: i'm talking of LL perspective
Prokofy Neva: Philip says money or land does not count as stake
Prokofy Neva: let him tell that to the ebay guy then!
Prokofy Neva: I challenge him up and down on thtat
Jauani Wu: from LL point of view, you are a very valuable customer compared to me
Prokofy Neva: monoey or land is stake TOO
Verbena Pennyfeather: Exactly, Prok, so we have an issue here, correct.
Prokofy Neva: not just his little content creation slaves working for free
Verbena Pennyfeather: From our perceptions, prok, Neph, or anyone who "invests" in SL is better, and taken at higher weight than joe newbie
Verbena Pennyfeather: Which is wrong
Prokofy Neva: Not better, just recognized as a stakeholder
Jauani Wu: yes but it's because prok and neph provide a compelling world for 1000 joe newbies
Prokofy Neva: if Joe Newbie gets behind something in the game -- even falling in love, even just logging on and caring and participating in a group -- he has a statke
Prokofy Neva: a stake is a stake
Jauani Wu: so i can't say i see a problem in it
Verbena Pennyfeather: Well, to put it bluntly then, Joe Newbie is just as equal a stakeholder.
Jauani Wu: unless it interferes in abuse resolution
Verbena Pennyfeather: So, the only metric that should be applied regarding stakeholder, is the fact that you exist in SL>
Jauani Wu: it's a tough comparision though
Prokofy Neva: wel Verbena Robin Linden said they'd talk to any resident in good standing
Jauani Wu: from a player standpoint we may all feel equal
Jauani Wu: but from the business angle to LL we can't be
Prokofy Neva: meaning just anybody with a paid account or free account logging on and not banned from the world I guess
Prokofy Neva: not sure what she meant entirely
Verbena Pennyfeather: That's true, Prok, but I can draw on personal experiences, where that don't apply
Jauani Wu: but they have the job of weighing who to appease when
Jauani Wu: i think it just depends on the issue at hand and who we are representing
Prokofy Neva: Again I think it's maybe useful to understand why Anshe wanted to use that word "stakeholder" to try to highlight "those who care and are affected by decisions"
Verbena Pennyfeather: Well, when it comes to Core SL ideals..ToS, CS, Economy, everyone is the same.
Verbena Pennyfeather: Any perks you get, from doing whatever you do in SL, should not stomp on someone "lower" than you.
Prokofy Neva: well what are the rules for perks?
Prokofy Neva: I mean it's understood Lindens pitch Aimee in all their media PR work
Prokofy Neva: I actually can't fault them for that
Prokofy Neva: it's business for them
Cocoanut Koala: ok im off the phone
Cocoanut Koala: i can fault them for it
Prokofy Neva: but they're also runinng a world, and in that regard I'd want them to take Aimee off the website 5 times, we have even other FIC who could go on it
Prokofy Neva: to just slice up the pie a bit more and also hvae a longer list of friends they pitch to the media so it is credible
Cocoanut Koala: ooo you have such a soft line on that prok
Prokofy Neva: I don't ask to be on this list myself because I don't have some world-burning thing to recount
Aimee Weber: :O
Cocoanut Koala: I've decided they shouldn't hae a list at ALL
Verbena Pennyfeather: That's pretty fair, Prok.
Cocoanut Koala: make those reporters do their own work
Prokofy Neva: well you can't stop LL from acting like LL, but we can ask them in the *country* they have created to have RULES
Jauani Wu: i think LL advertises whoever is useful for them
Cocoanut Koala: How could that possibly be, Jauani?
Prokofy Neva: well the way to get around the problem of Aimee'ss panties in the media is to pitch our own stories, which is how I did in TSO
Prokofy Neva: call up your own journalists or write your own story and start the alternative
Jauani Wu: marcos and aimee have made pretty good products but have also made them in a way that they can be used as marketing devices for the game
Cocoanut Koala: There are other ways to get around the problem
Prokofy Neva: but we should also ask them to be accountable about this Game Developers' Directory or whatever it is, to see what criteria is
Cocoanut Koala: But so have others!
Cocoanut Koala: For instance, Torrid Midnight was mentioned this time.
Prokofy Neva: Jauani, there are other people who make clothes and cars and robots in this world, they can just broaden the list, we can ask
Jauani Wu: bbut do the promote themselves as well as marcos or aimee?
Cocoanut Koala: There have GOT to be more than five players of that caliber in this game.
Prokofy Neva: and we can get lazy journalists to stop this constant recycling of material
Prokofy Neva: AND we can have the website ROTATE
Prokofy Neva: geez
Cocoanut Koala: LL needs to promote more of thos eplayers on the website.
Prokofy Neva: even TSO rotates for offline Sims
Jauani Wu: those people must approach people like bub to get attention.  not wait for bub to find them on a 1000 sim grid
Verbena Pennyfeather: Ok, lets think like this.  As opposed to LL pitching one resident at a time, they should pitch residents as a set of groups.
Cocoanut Koala: Well, people can approach Catherine Linden
pandastrong Fairplay: Am I late to the party?
Cocoanut Koala: she left a web address for it
Cocoanut Koala: you sure are panda
Cocoanut Koala: o
Aimee Weber: hi panda :D
Cocoanut Koala: i've missed half of it myself
pandastrong Fairplay: but I am the party
Cocoanut Koala: I ask you:  What would we do without each other?
pandastrong Fairplay: Hey Aimee :)
Verbena Pennyfeather: And this is, in regards to direct LL marketing regarding residents.
Cocoanut Koala: we keep ourselves entertained this way
Verbena Pennyfeather: If paper X writes an article on SL resident Y, nothing we can do about it.
Cocoanut Koala: correct, verbena.
Verbena Pennyfeather: now if LL itself pimps out Resident Y exclusively, then we have issues.
Cocoanut Koala: Which they apparently do, judging by my question to the m in the Linden meeting last night.
Cocoanut Koala: They also do it by avatars featured unchangingly on the website.
Verbena Pennyfeather: They do, I've seen it.
Cocoanut Koala: They offer that we can suggest ourselves.
Cocoanut Koala: But that is not the only, nor the wisest, solution.
Verbena Pennyfeather: Easy solution to this problem.  A simple lottery.
Cocoanut Koala: They should (1) change out their website, featuring more players
Cocoanut Koala: and (2) stop recommending people to media.
Cocoanut Koala: Tell the media to go into the game.  (It's free now.)
Cocoanut Koala: They can soon hear names once they get in the game.
pandastrong Fairplay: Media doesn't work that way
Verbena Pennyfeather: If you wish yourself, or your creations to be featured by LL, you enter the lottery for it.  If you get pulled for it, then bravo
Cocoanut Koala: Oh it doesnt panda?
Jauani Wu: media wants a quick soundbite
Cocoanut Koala: do tell me how it works.
pandastrong Fairplay: If the media does a story on the airforce, they don't join the airforce
Jauani Wu: stop patronizing him cocoa
Cocoanut Koala: sorry for that, jauani.
Cocoanut Koala: Of course they don't.
Cocoanut Koala: But they DO go to all KINDS of people in the airforce.
Verbena Pennyfeather: Thank you cocoa.
Cocoanut Koala: Not just those the general tells them to talk to.
pandastrong Fairplay: Actually, they really don't
pandastrong Fairplay: but anyway
Cocoanut Koala: Actually, really they DO.
Aimee Weber: airforce usually has a PR department
pandastrong Fairplay: yes
Cocoanut Koala: gah
Jauani Wu: depends if it's a serious article or a fluff piece doesn't it? most articles on sl are fluff articles
Alex Vindaloo: aren't you guys asking that LL do more work? Its a job to them - maybe your expectations aren't that realistic
Cocoanut Koala: No - LL do LESS work.
Cocoanut Koala: Stop funneling the same few people to all the media.
Cocoanut Koala: Looks bad for the game.
Cocoanut Koala: Causes backlash to those funneled.
Verbena Pennyfeather: Being military, I know how that works.  Media talks to the PAO office, who is a representive of the whole thing they are promoting
pandastrong Fairplay: thanks Verb
Alex Vindaloo: they are taking the easy road
Aimee Weber: great example
Cocoanut Koala: That is just ONE source, Verbena, and yes, they are takjing easy road.
Alex Vindaloo: cuz they are busy
Cocoanut Koala: If you want a fluff piece on the military, do exactly that.
Alex Vindaloo: making a game
Cocoanut Koala: If you want an actual ARTICLE, do your own research.
Cocoanut Koala: Anyway, it's not good for LL to continue with that.
pandastrong Fairplay: well, that is a problem to take up with the media, no?
Verbena Pennyfeather: THe problem is, featured residents are NOT representative of the entireity of ther group, but reps of themselves
Cocoanut Koala: Gives the impression the game is smaller than it is.
Cocoanut Koala: Thing Two:  They can give media more fodder by rotating people on website profiles and pics, etc.
Alex Vindaloo: more work
Cocoanut Koala: Then take OFF the ones that are there, Alex.
Alex Vindaloo: nice idea though
Verbena Pennyfeather: And, cocoa, again, we're trained in the military that, if any journalist comes snooping around us, we point em at the PAO
Cocoanut Koala: Verbena, I have read articles on the military, in USNWR, Time, Newsweek, etc.,
Jauani Wu: i got to do some RL.  this rap session turned out pretty good.  i suggest we have verb chair our meetings until we hold elections and stuff.
Cocoanut Koala: which were not merely the bosses and who they pointed people to.
pandastrong Fairplay: later wu man
Jauani Wu: take care folks
Verbena Pennyfeather: I can't Jai.  Good old Deployment looms.
Cocoanut Koala: are you the one who posted going to Iraq?
Verbena Pennyfeather: Yessa
Aimee Weber: :O
Cocoanut Koala: I'm honored to know you, Verbena!
Cocoanut Koala: And my best wishes for your time there.
Verbena Pennyfeather: Thanks!
pandastrong Fairplay: word up to verb :)
Second Life: Jauani Wu has left this session.
Cocoanut Koala: When is this going to happen?
Verbena Pennyfeather: Now, Cocoa, more education.  Any sorta "on-the-spot" interview or such you seen done with military, passes through PAO first
Cocoanut Koala: I'm talking about print.
Cocoanut Koala: People can be anonymous there if they choose.
Verbena Pennyfeather: Same here.
Cocoanut Koala: When do you leave?
Verbena Pennyfeather: Can't give the exat day
Verbena Pennyfeather: OpSec and all
Cocoanut Koala: well - hopefully we will all still be here when you get back!
Cocoanut Koala: and we will have BIG PARTY!
Cocoanut Koala: can you at least say bye before you go, or will you just . . . disappear?
Verbena Pennyfeather: But anywho, stuff you see mediawise about the military, much of it is filtered through PAO first.
Cocoanut Koala: And much isn't.
Verbena Pennyfeather: What isn't, the DoD can dismiss pretty easially
Cocoanut Koala: DoD?
Verbena Pennyfeather: Department of Defense
Cocoanut Koala: oh
Cocoanut Koala: I am thinking of articles such as about the pay
Cocoanut Koala: that I've read.
Second Life: Alex Vindaloo has left this session.
Cocoanut Koala: Or the new regulations
Cocoanut Koala: and whether or not they are well received by the enlisted.
Verbena Pennyfeather: Again, all filtered.
pandastrong Fairplay: Anyhooooo....There is no equity in RL media. Why should this be a demand in SL?
Cocoanut Koala: I don't think so.  We have freedom of speech here
Verbena Pennyfeather: By filtered, I don't mean, negative comments are removed.
Cocoanut Koala: To improve the game, panda
pandastrong Fairplay: explain
Cocoanut Koala: filtered for sensitive info?
Cocoanut Koala: that I would be 100% behind.
Verbena Pennyfeather: Sorta.  I'll get ya off-group for exmaining, taken up too much time.
Cocoanut Koala: ok
pandastrong Fairplay: how does equity in media improve the game?
Verbena Pennyfeather: Nowthen, I think the agreement is, that LL needs to stop "pimping" residents out
pandastrong Fairplay: Well, I do not agree with that
Cocoanut Koala: I agree to that
Aimee Weber: i don't agree with it
Schwanson Schlegel: /me pimps his ass
Aimee Weber: :O
Cocoanut Koala: What would HURT SL to promote more diversity?
Aimee Weber: lol schwan
Verbena Pennyfeather: Allow me to elaborate.
Cocoanut Koala: in the media?
pandastrong Fairplay: Yes it could
Cocoanut Koala: How?
Aimee Weber: coco, there are a variety of reasons marketing does what it does...
pandastrong Fairplay: Well, I would want Babe Ruth batting clean up
Aimee Weber: for example, putting a human/familiar face on a product sells
Verbena Pennyfeather: If someone wants to do an article on SL, LL should not be suggesting specific people to talk to, espically of those specific people are going to reap benifits from it that others wouldn't
Cocoanut Koala: I agree entirely with Verbena.
pandastrong Fairplay: But that is not how PR works. It is the exact opposite.. I am not saying it is fair, but we aren't talking fair. We are talking improving the "game"
Cocoanut Koala: How does it work, do you mean?
pandastrong Fairplay: PR is about putting the best foot forward, the cream of the crop
Cocoanut Koala: Well.
pandastrong Fairplay: LL, as the REAL beneficiary of good PR
Aimee Weber: not just that panda, but its about creating something familiar
Schwanson Schlegel: and their panties! :p
pandastrong Fairplay: has everyright to choose what the cream of the crop is
Aimee Weber: lol schwan
Prokofy Neva: Being busy making a game is no excuse, they can broaden the list, rotate the website, share the wealth, which is literally the thing being asked of them, share the wealth
pandastrong Fairplay: we are talking about their free time now
pandastrong Fairplay: ?
Verbena Pennyfeather: Like I said.  Simple lottery.
Cocoanut Koala: Besides, showing only the same small slice of LL is shortsighted, and can backfire.
Schwanson Schlegel: lol....no way
Prokofy Neva: Not everyone has decided that the people constantly put forward are the "cream of the crop" and I agree with Coco that journalists can go in free now so it's even more accessible
Aimee Weber: also, when picking a spokesperson for SL, it's not all about technicalities, they want somebody with charisma, somebody who will generate GOOD press
Cocoanut Koala: How about - they just get out of the business of serving players to media.
Cocoanut Koala: Well I think we have two things confused here.
Schwanson Schlegel: Aimee Weber: also, when picking a spokesperson for SL, it's not all about technicalities, they want somebody with charisma, somebody who will generate GOOD press
Schwanson Schlegel: was worth repeating
Aimee Weber: thank you schwanson
pandastrong Fairplay: Prok, people have decided who the cream of the crop is. That is why they have celebrity status
Cocoanut Koala: One:  A spokesperson for SL, who will be essentially a PR person for SL, i.e., a mouthpiece almost.
Cocoanut Koala: In addition to a good example of player.
Prokofy Neva: I'm thinking that some of the stories about your panties Aimee actually drive away serious customers who might want to use this for RL non-profit or medical work or whaetver, so they can't just keep having the same stuff, that's all, they have to be more
Prokofy Neva: diverse
Cocoanut Koala: Two:  People who represent a wide diversity of what is available to do in the game.
Narmotur Pendragon: You don't do much marketing, eh?
Cocoanut Koala: Who represent a wide variety of viewpoints, rather than the same one or two.
Prokofy Neva: Um which people pandastrong? do they represent even the FIC? I'm not at all convinced of that, and they certainly don't represent the vox populi
pandastrong Fairplay: oh jesus
Prokofy Neva: We do a lot of journalism tho Narmotur : )
Cocoanut Koala: And even in that job, they fail, because they only have 3 people on their list!
pandastrong Fairplay: I have an  "FIC" filter on, prok
pandastrong Fairplay: sorry, couldnt read what you typed
Narmotur Pendragon: Everyone with a blog is a journalist. I don't see you on the news Prok.
pandastrong Fairplay: but I am sure it was brilliant
Prokofy Neva: Filter must be faulty then pandastrong, bettre consult the tekkie wiki and get it fixed
Prokofy Neva: I don't attempt to get in the media, I'm not here to do that
Cocoanut Koala: Me neither.
pandastrong Fairplay: no it isn't faulty, I really didn't read what you said
Cocoanut Koala: Well take him off filter then, panda
Prokofy Neva: I've actually pitched stories to journalists that have been covered here but they don't have to cover me
Prokofy Neva: No willing to the good you can do if you are willing not to seek the credit : )
Verbena Pennyfeather: Lemme give a quick example of how I first got into SL.
Narmotur Pendragon: Fluff makes for good general marketing, and it would be stupid to pass up on the opportunity from the standpoint of a business out to make money.
pandastrong Fairplay: no, cocoa, I am an officer of this group, and I am not going to be insulted IN MY OWN GROUP
Verbena Pennyfeather: I first got introduced by an article a furry did on furries in SL.
Cocoanut Koala: Well he is an officer too.
pandastrong Fairplay: great, and I did not insult him :)
pandastrong Fairplay: I am good cop
Verbena Pennyfeather: Now, I'm a furry myself, however, being newbie A1 to the game, I thought the ONLY source of furry gear in game, was the one person who the article was done on.
Verbena Pennyfeather: Nowthen, if that one person had been recommended by LL as the rep for the entire furry group, then other content creators in that subgroup get slighted.
Prokofy Neva: You cannot micro-manage the LL PR policy and make perfectly representational lists, what they can feel tho is the pressure of the community ROTATE THE WEB SITE.
Prokofy Neva: I mean that is just common sense, refresh your web site, geez, and don't tell me you can stream a 3-D world with 1000 servers and can't change a jpeg geez
pandastrong Fairplay: But that goes against basic concepts in marketing
Cocoanut Koala: nonsense panda
Narmotur Pendragon: LL will rotate the website when LL wants to rotate the website.
pandastrong Fairplay: so it is incompentancy then?
pandastrong Fairplay: they dont know how to do it prok?
Narmotur Pendragon: The fact they haven't just proves the point
Cocoanut Koala: Yes, Narmotur, and the sooner, the better.
Cocoanut Koala: And they WILL do so.
Prokofy Neva: This game isn't about marketing only Aimee's panties and Cubies blimps? There's a lot more to it than that? even in the blimp and panty department?
Cocoanut Koala: Or they will be cutting off their own nose to spite their face.
pandastrong Fairplay: How many logos has Cingular™ had?
Cocoanut Koala: We aren't talking about the Giant Hand.
Narmotur Pendragon: Well, it would seem LL doesn't think so, and so far LL is winning the war for changing the website.
Cocoanut Koala: Or the Perimeter Mall logo.
Cocoanut Koala: What makes you think they are in a war NOT to change it?
Prokofy Neva: a webpage for an interactive real-time 3-D world is not a static product like a cell phone, it is not a "logo" but something that should be refreshed
Cocoanut Koala: They have said repeatedly they WILL change it.
pandastrong Fairplay: Not in terms of marketing
Prokofy Neva: new players don't need to see Aimee's taunting pigtails on the forums, on their new account page, on 3 other pages
Prokofy Neva: end of story
Narmotur Pendragon: They say a lot of things! Havok 2 is coming!
pandastrong Fairplay: Marketing is about familiarity
Narmotur Pendragon: When they are good and ready
Cocoanut Koala: Let's say this is a mall.  The mall promotes its resident stores.
pandastrong Fairplay: actually , this is not the end of story
Cocoanut Koala: Except they only keep promoting just the one that sells pierced earrings.
Cocoanut Koala: Never any others.
Cocoanut Koala: That doesn't help the mall's image.
pandastrong Fairplay: but it helps the mall sell
Cocoanut Koala: As a large and deiverse place, appealing to many interests.
pandastrong Fairplay: you are talking about people with real jobs here, LL employees
Cocoanut Koala: No, it won't help the mall sell, which is why no malls do that.
pandastrong Fairplay: they rely on a good marketing department
Cocoanut Koala: The marketing department is not doing a good job of LL in this respect.
pandastrong Fairplay: not off-the hip social democratic branding
pandastrong Fairplay: not for you coco, but you still pay your tier
Cocoanut Koala: Social democratic branding?  what's that?
Prokofy Neva: ROFL
Prokofy Neva: geez
Cocoanut Koala: Not for me what?
pandastrong Fairplay: it is not doing good marketing for you
pandastrong Fairplay: you are here
pandastrong Fairplay: you are reoccuring revenue
Cocoanut Koala: reoccuring?
pandastrong Fairplay: this is about attracting new players
Cocoanut Koala: Exactly!
Cocoanut Koala: That is what I am talking about.
Cocoanut Koala: And what Verbena mentioned has to do with that.
Cocoanut Koala: gonna go stick a lean cuisine in.
Aimee Weber: how about separating internal and external marketing. externally you let marketing do whatever they thing is the best thing to attract customers. internally they can have "diverse player of the week" pages, and stuff celebrating non-aimees.
pandastrong Fairplay: Yes, Aimee, that hits the core
pandastrong Fairplay: a big thing I think some people are missing
Prokofy Neva: The two are so merged that we can't see the borders to these internal and external marketings and real money is involved
Narmotur Pendragon: I assume LL does their own market research and what they are doing is the result of that. I could be wrong. But I would also think it would be rediculous to listen to my thoughts on how LL should advertise because I am nobody!
Verbena Pennyfeather: WHat I'm saying, is that LL as a service provider, should not be advertising specific busness entities within it's service to others.
Schwanson Schlegel: New players are easy as all hell to attract now....theay want us to attract them
Schwanson Schlegel: All accounts receive L $250 signup bonus upon creation; Premium accounts will receive L$1000 upon activation
Aimee Weber: i don't think the winning solution is the same for both
Verbena Pennyfeather: Aimee, Hypothetical example time!
Aimee Weber: uh oh
pandastrong Fairplay: Aimee is to SL as Michael Jordan is to Nike™ and there is nothing wrong with that
Verbena Pennyfeather: I make panties at the same lefel as Aimee.
pandastrong Fairplay: It is a good thing
Verbena Pennyfeather: Level, even, Just as good.
pandastrong Fairplay: It is the foundation of marketing
Aimee Weber: i understood :D
Schwanson Schlegel: Aimee is Michael Jordan
pandastrong Fairplay: I look good in nikes™ too
Verbena Pennyfeather: Now, *I*, for some reason, get some pimping on the official SL website for my store.
Schwanson Schlegel: :-0
Aimee Weber: OMG AIMEE IS MICHAEL JORDON'S ALT
pandastrong Fairplay: but I understand Nike's™ decision not to use me
Schwanson Schlegel: and wears panties!
Aimee Weber: lol
Prokofy Neva: I disagree, Aimee is just the poster girl from the love-fest, beta-test era and they need to grow beyond that, it's a bigger world
Aimee Weber: i wasn't in the beta prok
Aimee Weber: i am a relative noob
Prokofy Neva: it's a state of mind
pandastrong Fairplay: doesn't matter aimee!
Verbena Pennyfeather: Now, Aimee, both of us being equal, my panties are going to get more of the newbie crowd, cause they are exposed to that, surfing the SL page.
pandastrong Fairplay: it is a state of mind
Schwanson Schlegel: when did you join?
pandastrong Fairplay: oh shit, he beat me
Prokofy Neva: pleasing the Lindens, ina  small world -- it's so last year Aimee
Narmotur Pendragon: so LL should stop caring about the community, and listen to the community about the community?
Schwanson Schlegel: hahaha
Verbena Pennyfeather: Following, Aimee dear?
Aimee Weber: verbana that's not a hypothetical you are describing. Its exactly how things were when I first arrived and Neph was the only game in town. Dear.
Aimee Weber: and i didnt complain
Aimee Weber: i worked
pandastrong Fairplay: word up to aimee and jesus
Aimee Weber: lol
Aimee Weber: yay panda
pandastrong Fairplay: and kudos as well
Schwanson Schlegel: wwad
Prokofy Neva: Lots of people work Aimee, you're not the only one, and lots of people even have pretty panties : )
pandastrong Fairplay: haha
Aimee Weber: what WOULD aimee do?
Schwanson Schlegel: :p
Schwanson Schlegel: WWAD
Verbena Pennyfeather: And congradulations on your success, Aimee, honestly!
Prokofy Neva: It's a question of mixing it up a little and getting ready of the record stuck in the groove to make it more of a chorus of voices
pandastrong Fairplay: I don't see any benefit in equity in media, in relation to how it improves SL
Aimee Weber: but seriously
Verbena Pennyfeather: I can go with that, Prok.
Cocoanut Koala: If Aimee is to SL as Michael Jordon is to Nike, then let them HIRE HER and make it official.
pandastrong Fairplay: I haven't seen an argument yet, but I came late
Aimee Weber: when i came to SL, Neph was all over the web page
Aimee Weber: she was in all the press
Narmotur Pendragon: The reason LL pimps Aimee is because she has a proven record of being good for LL
Schwanson Schlegel: Catherine asked for names and got 0 responses
Aimee Weber: and i didnt worry about it one bit. i did my thing and i stayed friendly
pandastrong Fairplay: I think that would be a great move on LL's part, coco
Cocoanut Koala: You can't tell me that out of 40,000 subscribers, we have only one person (or three) who can adequately represent SL.
pandastrong Fairplay: because I get 10% as her manager
pandastrong Fairplay: coco, that is not the point
Cocoanut Koala: apparently not
pandastrong Fairplay: marketing is not about a multitude of images representing one product
Narmotur Pendragon: If you stick with what you know, you take less risk
pandastrong Fairplay: it just doesnt work like that
Cocoanut Koala: What Verbena said above is the point.
Cocoanut Koala: You can't promote businesses.
Verbena Pennyfeather: Again, Aimee, good job on the hard work.  I only use you as an example, because your avibile, not out of any malice.  I apologize if it came across like that.
Narmotur Pendragon: If LL says "here, talk to Narmotur Pendragon" and i make an ass out of myself, it doesn't look good for LL
Schwanson Schlegel: I have seen press on quite a few players
Prokofy Neva: Yes what we're talking about is how the Lindens promote not only their OWn business but the world's businesses and we'd like to see it done fairly
Aimee Weber: no malice taken (though the "dear" part was sketchy).
Verbena Pennyfeather: Bad habit.
Loksr Mysterio: verb says that a lot
pandastrong Fairplay: I agree with that, prok, and I dont see anyone distinguishing the two
Schwanson Schlegel: Didn't Catherine ask for information from anybody interested and get NO responses?
Cocoanut Koala: And as you know from the many times I've said it before, nothing personal from me, either.
Aimee Weber: But the other part of this is...when i get on the phone with somebody from the press... i have them laughing within a minute
pandastrong Fairplay: and there is a huge rift between them
Cocoanut Koala: Yes she did, Schwanson.
Schwanson Schlegel: well? wtf?
Cocoanut Koala: Well, we tried listing other people.
Cocoanut Koala: She said that wouldn't do.
Cocoanut Koala: I say - just stop recommending people then.
Cocoanut Koala: How did Aimee get on the list anyway?
Aimee Weber: you cant subtract charisma from the equasion if SL is trying to keep it's head above the water when it comes to marketing
Cocoanut Koala: and Torrid?
Cocoanut Koala: and Juro?
Cocoanut Koala: There are LOTS of people who have charisma.
pandastrong Fairplay: Press attracts new users to SL
Cocoanut Koala: I listed a bunch of them in that thread Catherine won't accept.
pandastrong Fairplay: different than in world promotion
Prokofy Neva: um SL has to keep its head above water? Like it's failing? Like it isn't the greatest thing since cream cheese? I'm missing something here.
Schwanson Schlegel: I agree that people have to show interest....SL would be totally doomed if someone reccomended me and 60 minutes showed up at my house on a friday night
Verbena Pennyfeather: Since we have Aimee in the room, I'd say she earned the press right, from being charismatic.
pandastrong Fairplay: everyone is confusing the 2
Second Life: Loksr Mysterio has left this session.
Cocoanut Koala: They should recommend no one.
Aimee Weber: awee :D
Aimee Weber: thank you :D
Cocoanut Koala: Did you write them, as Catherine suggested, Aimee?
pandastrong Fairplay: Why coco?
Narmotur Pendragon: So if the press comes to LL and says "Who can we talk to about SL?" they should shrug?
Cocoanut Koala: Because it's unnecessary, for one thing.
Aimee Weber: did i wha?
pandastrong Fairplay: wait
pandastrong Fairplay: right there coco
Cocoanut Koala: They should say:  "Look at the website (which we change frequently)
pandastrong Fairplay: that is a false premise
Cocoanut Koala: read some blogs, get in the world, it costs nothing."
Schwanson Schlegel: hahaha
Narmotur Pendragon: that isn't what reporters want
Verbena Pennyfeather: Ok, lets put it like this, for a change
Narmotur Pendragon: they want a face
Cocoanut Koala: How did you get on the list, Aimee?
pandastrong Fairplay: there is no necessity in generating maximum revenue
Aimee Weber: what list?
pandastrong Fairplay: but that is what companies do
Cocoanut Koala: Catherine and other Lindens have said they select from a list of people
Cocoanut Koala: to recommend to media.
Schwanson Schlegel: "Hi this is 60 minutes here to do a story on your product, can we ask for someone to interview?"
pandastrong Fairplay: no marketing is  "necessary"
Cocoanut Koala: Catherine asks us to submit ourselves.
Aimee Weber: i am not aware of a list
Schwanson Schlegel: "look at our website"
Cocoanut Koala: I am wondering how they got the list in the first place.
Verbena Pennyfeather: LL should, for residents talking to the press, maintain a list of players who are interested, and can show themselves as the right people to put a good face on SL.
Aimee Weber: wait do we know an actual list exists?
Cocoanut Koala: Who they OFFER for an interview is members of their own STAFF - not
Prokofy Neva: First they said any9one can recommend themselves or another, then they said no we will decide? or? what is the status?
Aimee Weber: this is the first i heard of it
Narmotur Pendragon: I assume the list was when SL was smaller and LL could keep tabs on the happenings
Cocoanut Koala: members of the subscribers.
Cocoanut Koala: Ap[parently so, yes, Aimee.
Verbena Pennyfeather: NOWTHEN, if the only person who shows interest, and qualifies, is Aime..well, damn, good job Aimee
Narmotur Pendragon: And then, stick with what you know
Aimee Weber: where did you find this out coco? link?
Narmotur Pendragon: It's a proven business strategy
Cocoanut Koala: Well, Verbena, not fine really -
Cocoanut Koala: no one knows about it.
pandastrong Fairplay: haha
Aimee Weber: oh ok
Prokofy Neva: yes Narmotur I think that's well said, it was a small village and it was visibly evident who stood out but now it's far bigger and it's a COUNTRY
Aimee Weber: lol
Verbena Pennyfeather: Then the core issue is not WHO is chosen, it's HOW they are chosen.
pandastrong Fairplay: Aimee I will find you a link
Cocoanut Koala: Yes, Aimee, people kept saying there was a list they consulted
pandastrong Fairplay: As soon as I open dreamweaver
Cocoanut Koala: and I doubted that
Aimee Weber: hehe a fine link it will be too panda
Aimee Weber: hahah
pandastrong Fairplay: hehehe
Cocoanut Koala: so I asked Lindens last night, and they
Cocoanut Koala: what did they say?
Cocoanut Koala: They pointedly didn't deny it.
Narmotur Pendragon: Prok: twisting words into mockery is hardly a way to prove your point. SL may be a "country" but LL is still a business.
Cocoanut Koala: And Catherine today said how to get on that list.
pandastrong Fairplay: I like this Narmotur person
Cocoanut Koala: mockery?
Cocoanut Koala: twas Phillip's own word.
Narmotur Pendragon: That was my point
Cocoanut Koala: and in any case, the metaphor stands.
Schwanson Schlegel: /me scratches head
Cocoanut Koala: Hey.
Cocoanut Koala: If theyu open this up
Verbena Pennyfeather: OK, to point again.
Cocoanut Koala: more people will be pofiled
pandastrong Fairplay: Narmotur, I want to pos rate you for your building skills
Cocoanut Koala: and featured in articles
Prokofy Neva: mockery huh? I am quoting Philip, and not on one of his zanier interviews to the media, in his meetings with us f2f
Cocoanut Koala: like Travis Lambert
Cocoanut Koala: like SexyEyes Valkyrie
Prokofy Neva: sorry but that's not mocking, that's quoting and taking seriously
Narmotur Pendragon: Phillip talks like someone who loves SL, but LL is still a business and has to run like one.
Cocoanut Koala: like many others who live full, interesting second lives, and can talk articulately and excitedly about it.
Narmotur Pendragon: I don't understand why you can't seperate the two
Cocoanut Koala: His business will be improved when they fix this.
Schwanson Schlegel: This is like the forums, on crack. I am out all, please invite me in the future. It was fun
Verbena Pennyfeather: Woah, lets slow down just a tad.  I'm getting muddled myself here.
Cocoanut Koala: lol
pandastrong Fairplay: No, his business will suffer if he gives in to this hippierainbowlobbying mob
Cocoanut Koala: Well you know it is good, though, to actually talk to each other ingame about it.
Second Life: Schwanson Schlegel has left this session.
pandastrong Fairplay: :)
Verbena Pennyfeather: Lets get down to a core issue.
Cocoanut Koala: Better in lots of ways than the back and forth forums.
Cocoanut Koala: Panda, you are an officer of this hippierainbowlobbying mob
pandastrong Fairplay: I know, AND I am a vegetarian
Prokofy Neva: um, Phil already gave into the hippie rainbow mob in sstuff like the crappy group tools, this isn't that mob by any stretch
pandastrong Fairplay: guys, it is one word
Verbena Pennyfeather: Core issue, I can see, is this.  Certian people get chosen as the reps to the press for us.  Some of those people have busniess in SL, who reap benifits from such a rep job.
pandastrong Fairplay: hippierainbowlobbying
Cocoanut Koala: i put it in one word
Cocoanut Koala: :)
pandastrong Fairplay: oh, good catch coco :)
Cocoanut Koala: How about fairness and equality?
pandastrong Fairplay: coco
Cocoanut Koala: How about fair chance at having one's business promoted?
pandastrong Fairplay: I love fairness and equity
pandastrong Fairplay: I do
Cocoanut Koala: The Lindens let people set up businesses here,
pandastrong Fairplay: and in-world promotion is different
Cocoanut Koala: then persist in only promoting the same ones.
Cocoanut Koala: It is not different.
Cocoanut Koala: It is promotion, fame, recpognition, and more sales for that busienss.
Narmotur Pendragon: I thought I saw a thread about that on the forums. Submit yourself, tell them why you would be a good representitive for LL.
Cocoanut Koala: And as such, it is basically unfair.
Narmotur Pendragon: If you can't articulate that, you likely SHOULDN'T be.
Cocoanut Koala: It isn't necessary to even HAVE that process, Narmotur.
Cocoanut Koala: Imagine this:  "Yes, why don't you tlak to Phillip and Robin, reporter."
Verbena Pennyfeather: I disagree, Coco.  Good point was brought up, LL needs to put it's best face forward
Narmotur Pendragon: I'm not saying you don't make awesome panties or whatever, but when LL presents you to NBC or FOX, you're speaking for LL
Cocoanut Koala: "Then go into the game and report on what businesses or activities take your eye."
pandastrong Fairplay: residents should be absolutely HANDS OFF when it comes to interveining with LL's marketing objectives IRL
pandastrong Fairplay: it is unreasonable
pandastrong Fairplay: absolutely unreasonable
Cocoanut Koala: Lindens should not be in the business of promoting some of our businesses over others.
Aimee Weber: I sure am.
Aimee Weber: :D
Aimee Weber: Happy to do it too.
Cocoanut Koala: If they are, then the game is rigged.
pandastrong Fairplay: haha
Narmotur Pendragon: reporters don't want to do work, they want to talk to someone for a 5 minute short on some crazy people in an online world
pandastrong Fairplay: exactly
Cocoanut Koala: So?
pandastrong Fairplay: that is the nature of media
pandastrong Fairplay: go change that
Cocoanut Koala: If they dont want to do work,
Narmotur Pendragon: So they need people to talk to!
Cocoanut Koala: they can peruse the website
Cocoanut Koala: and/or previous articles written.
pandastrong Fairplay: how do you interview a website?
Cocoanut Koala: There is no paucity of easily-gained clues already there for them.
Verbena Pennyfeather: OK, I need another situation.  AImee, yer the target again!
Aimee Weber: :O
Cocoanut Koala: You get NAMES off it.
Aimee Weber: eep!
Cocoanut Koala: You get the lay of the land.
Cocoanut Koala: Which may well be very different from the lay of the land as viewed by LL.
pandastrong Fairplay: no, reporters do not ever try to "get the lay of the land"
Cocoanut Koala: ok
Verbena Pennyfeather: If, Aimee, LL required that you talk to the press through a neutral persona..no mention or contact with your busniess..would you do it?
pandastrong Fairplay: they get a glimpse and do their best
Cocoanut Koala: with all due respect, panda, I do have some idea how reporters work.
Aimee Weber: Yes.
Verbena Pennyfeather: Awsome.
pandastrong Fairplay: with all due respect cocoanut, I was a marketing executive
Cocoanut Koala: Panda, you would not have dictated my article for me.
Narmotur Pendragon: the fact of the matter is that LL is expected to have people that reporters can contact
Narmotur Pendragon: And they don't want to log in to SL and find you
pandastrong Fairplay: yes I would have, and I have done. That is what a VP of marketing does
Narmotur Pendragon: they want to call you on the phone
Cocoanut Koala: And they do - and there is no trouble finding them.
Aimee Weber: I have talked to people on the phone.
Narmotur Pendragon: They might not even care what SL is
Cocoanut Koala: Anyway, that isn't even how it worked in TSO.
Aimee Weber: The recent woman's wear daily article was from a telephone interview.
Cocoanut Koala: In TSO, people would put on the forums they wanted to write an article, and we would contact them.
pandastrong Fairplay: Did she try to cyber you aimee?
Verbena Pennyfeather: No way, I wanna cyber Aimee!
Aimee Weber: I tried to cyber her, but she was all bidness
Cocoanut Koala: Articles about TSO were not all about the same 5 people funneled to them by Lindens.
Aimee Weber: LOL
Verbena Pennyfeather: And her panties!
pandastrong Fairplay: word
Aimee Weber: take a number verb! :D
Cocoanut Koala: And I could make a good case that the stakes in TSO weren't nearly as high.
Cocoanut Koala: We
Verbena Pennyfeather: I'll take number one, please.
Cocoanut Koala: We are talking actual tax-reportable money gleaned from this game.
Aimee Weber: DOH!
Aimee Weber: beating the system :D
Narmotur Pendragon: Well, this isn't TSO, and LL is a small company with something to prove
Cocoanut Koala: No excuses for it, in my book.
Cocoanut Koala: You just do not promote some businesses over others, period.
pandastrong Fairplay: Yes you do, not in world, but for the press
pandastrong Fairplay: you absolutely do
Cocoanut Koala: ok y'all thanks for the discussion, I'm off to eat my lean cuisine now
pandastrong Fairplay: this is about money
Cocoanut Koala: talk to y'all later!
pandastrong Fairplay: bye coco!
Narmotur Pendragon: lean cuisine is horrible!
Verbena Pennyfeather: Seeya COco
Loksr Mysterio: cya
Second Life: Cocoanut Koala has left this session.
Grunion Shaftoe: Good Evening, All. how's the insane Paranoia doing tonight?
Narmotur Pendragon: a travest to taste buds :/
Narmotur Pendragon: travesty*
Verbena Pennyfeather: Anywho, back to my equality spiel.
pandastrong Fairplay: I don't see how anyone feels entitled to dictate how a private company interacts with the media
pandastrong Fairplay: that just doesn't happen IRL
Prokofy Neva: They don't dictate, they ask for accountability.
pandastrong Fairplay: when?
Prokofy Neva: Alwaysw
Prokofy Neva: and everwhere
Verbena Pennyfeather: Lets say, general article on SL, there shouldn't be an influence on who is chosen, besides standards set forth publically by LL.
pandastrong Fairplay: when have you asked for accountability in a Comcast™ commercial
pandastrong Fairplay: ?
Prokofy Neva: by askig to rotate the website, lengthen their list of contacts, and be more wilng to get pitches of stories themselves
Prokofy Neva: I dno't pay tier to Combcast
Narmotur Pendragon: what kind of accountability? if Aimee talking to the news brings in someone who buys a product you sell, shouldn't you have to go thank them?
Aimee Weber: I have panda. Comcast never once put me in a commercial, and i AM a paying customer.
Verbena Pennyfeather: That is reasonable, Prok.
Aimee Weber: <--- pissed
Prokofy Neva: and Comcast doesn't tell me they are a country
pandastrong Fairplay: you don't pay an ISP bill, prok?
Loksr Mysterio: SL's a country?
Prokofy Neva: That's not tier
pandastrong Fairplay: tier is rent, dude
Prokofy Neva: it's not a stake, it's just a user's fee
Prokofy Neva: and that's the difference
Aimee Weber: Second Lifostan
Prokofy Neva: big difference
pandastrong Fairplay: nobody ever told you that you had a stake
Grunion Shaftoe: It is up to Journalists to present a story in a manner consistant with an ethical protrayal of the facts
pandastrong Fairplay: there was no IPO
Prokofy Neva: Did I make up the country concent? No, not I, that's your friend Phil's idea
Verbena Pennyfeather: Grah, point.  Prok just made a valid point, issit agreeable?
Grunion Shaftoe: to this end, THEY choose their sources and citations
Verbena Pennyfeather: askig to rotate the website, lengthen their list of contacts, and be more wilng to get pitches of stories themselves
pandastrong Fairplay: where does it say that you have a stake in LL, prok?
Verbena Pennyfeather: Prok has an equal stake in SL, just as much as any other resident, simply via his existence in SL.
pandastrong Fairplay: nobody has a stake in LL though
Grunion Shaftoe: I disagree with the term 'stakeholder'
pandastrong Fairplay: and we are talking about LL's marketing department
Prokofy Neva: well grunion the term is used the world over
Grunion Shaftoe: Prok ; hehe ... really?
Grunion Shaftoe: wow.
Prokofy Neva: in the UN, in OSCE, in the European Union, in business, in non-profits -- it si an acceptable term everywhere except among the cloistered halls of the tekkerati I guess, I dunno
Grunion Shaftoe: that's such the non-response.
Verbena Pennyfeather: Prok m'dear....tone it down just a tad.
Narmotur Pendragon: LL has the biggest stake in SL, and I trist their decisions over anyone else's
pandastrong Fairplay: Prok, talk like a human being without condesceding
Prokofy Neva: Do you get out much? google it and look at World Bank, UN, I dunno, USAIDS, anything that has to do stuff where other people are affected
Prokofy Neva: pandastrong, stop hectoring
pandastrong Fairplay: you are insulting groups of people
Grunion Shaftoe: you mean ; in the halls of diplomacy where the purpose is to get along together , not in any place where progress is really being made.
pandastrong Fairplay: hectoring?
Prokofy Neva: no Grunion is insulting us by saying our use of the term is illegitimate
pandastrong Fairplay: HECTORING?
Verbena Pennyfeather: Ok, hostility level is getting abit high, everyone tone down just a tad.
Aimee Weber: lol panda
Prokofy Neva: and you all are the ones who put in the steak as icon
pandastrong Fairplay: H-E-C-T-O-R-I-N-G?
Grunion Shaftoe: Prok ; no , I said I DISAGREE with the use of the term
pandastrong Fairplay: NO PROK
pandastrong Fairplay: NOT US ALL
Aimee Weber: :D
pandastrong Fairplay: ONE PERSON DID THAT
Prokofy Neva: yeah lecturing and telilng me what to do in a pointed and hostile manner, hectoring sure
pandastrong Fairplay: ONE PERSON
pandastrong Fairplay: ONE PERSON
pandastrong Fairplay: NOT US ALL
pandastrong Fairplay: ONE PERSON
pandastrong Fairplay: ONE PERSON
pandastrong Fairplay: ONE PERSON
Prokofy Neva: no, pandastrong, on the forums we had TONS OF PEOPLE
Prokofy Neva: so don't misrepresent it
Grunion Shaftoe: Prok : you are the Lord God Queen bitch of hectoring then
Narmotur Pendragon: I don't even know who hector is
Prokofy Neva: the very term irks people cuz they don't get it
pandastrong Fairplay: ONE PERSON PUT UP THE PICTURE
pandastrong Fairplay: ONE PERSON
pandastrong Fairplay: Prok, how many people put up the picture of a steak?
pandastrong Fairplay: just so we are clear
Grunion Shaftoe: prok : you harangue and rail against people in such a slanted manner that it really makes you lose credability
Prokofy Neva: in the forums, several, and one here, and there are at least a dozen posters saying "I like stake" and all that
Verbena Pennyfeather: Ok, back to this game, I can play good.  What we would like to see, and anyone who isn't in a personal debate pipe up, is abit more variety in what and who LL pimps out, within the bounds of making cash for LL to keep this place going.
pandastrong Fairplay: ok, let me rephrase it in the same syntax
pandastrong Fairplay: prok, how many people put up the picture of the steak?
Prokofy Neva: Grunion, you're the one doing that now, by refusing to understand that this term has legitimacy the world over, and picking on it in a specious and hectoring way.
Narmotur Pendragon: I would like to say, as a relative nobody, I trust LL over ANYONE else to make decisions for the good of SL. Just because someone does more than I do in whatever manner doesn't mean I trust them to know crap about the direction of SL.
Prokofy Neva: pandastrong, you yoruself mocked it
Prokofy Neva: you yrouself dn't accept the term
pandastrong Fairplay: Prok, how many people put up the picture of the stake?
Grunion Shaftoe: prok: I doubt that you have any interest in the survival of SL as a platform, and I feel that you would rather have it torn to shreds than to experience  one iota of any injustice as it might occur on any common playing field amoung children
Prokofy Neva: Let me brak it down to you: your friend Phil doesn't tell the ebay guy he isn't a stakeholder, and that's what stake is
pandastrong Fairplay: jsut type in a number
Prokofy Neva: well Grunion that's a load of crap? and entirely tendentious and artificial
Grunion Shaftoe: HAHAHAHA
Verbena Pennyfeather: That's the point I'm pushing at right now.  Not so much, LL totally change their marketing strategy, just that they expand it to interested, qualified parties in a way that those parties can get in on it.
Grunion Shaftoe: Okay, dudette.
Prokofy Neva: you have no idea what i do here and your ascribing to me of malevolent intentions is just ridiculous
pandastrong Fairplay: ok, I will give you options: 1, 2, 3-5,5-50, over 50
Prokofy Neva: It has loads of injustice now and that discredits it and makes customers go away and prevents the goal of having it available for even a million people
Prokofy Neva: as a COUNTRY which is how they describe it
pandastrong Fairplay: Prok, do you have me on ignore, I would like this for the record
Grunion Shaftoe: well, if you are for open and fair play, you've totally masked that in a cruel twisted vitriolic cloud of cruelty and selfishness that prevents me from even WANTING to be seen in the same room with you
Prokofy Neva: If it isn't a country, if it is not a world, if it is just a 3-D resume polishing exercise and a prototyper for things like Aimee's designs, oh, I'm in the wrong pewe
pandastrong Fairplay: cause I want to know how more than one person can ascribe a picture to a group
Prokofy Neva: but they didn't say that when they advertised it, and took my money, so there
pandastrong Fairplay: 100-200?
Prokofy Neva: see that kind of heckling and picking on some tiny minutae is exactly what I mean by hectoring
pandastrong Fairplay: no, not minutae
pandastrong Fairplay: at all
Prokofy Neva: one person can upload a picture but one person or more can take it down
pandastrong Fairplay: you said we all did something
pandastrong Fairplay: you are lumping us together
pandastrong Fairplay: marginalizing our opinions
Prokofy Neva: it represents the entire chorus of forum jackals who called this steak like steak and not stake
pandastrong Fairplay: that is not minutae
Prokofy Neva: and you know it
Verbena Pennyfeather: Mmkay, we are wasting how much time right now, please?
Prokofy Neva: I don't aqccept you as an interlocutor because you are not sincere.
pandastrong Fairplay: no, this is at the core verbena, sorry
pandastrong Fairplay: you dont know me prok
Verbena Pennyfeather: Elaborate some for me Panda?
pandastrong Fairplay: I am an officer of this grouop
pandastrong Fairplay: this bias
pandastrong Fairplay: against people who hold a common idea
pandastrong Fairplay: I am not "you people"
Verbena Pennyfeather: Gimmee some detail, Panda, just so I know how to start defusing some.
pandastrong Fairplay: and I am sincerre
pandastrong Fairplay: and I am not going to sit in a group
Prokofy Neva: you were invited in to harass me, by Jauani, you did not joiin as an authentic and sincere person
Prokofy Neva: No you're not and that's self-evident
pandastrong Fairplay: and have someone dismiss my opinions because they feel I am not sincere
pandastrong Fairplay: I demand equity
Prokofy Neva: I've never known you to say a single sincere constructive suggestion ever on the forums, all you do is snipe
pandastrong Fairplay: EQUITY NOW
Prokofy Neva: Your record is clear.
pandastrong Fairplay: My record is hot, prok
Verbena Pennyfeather: Prok, I'm going to call that point on you.  Panda has spoken up sone very valid points in this dicussion.
pandastrong Fairplay: Yes I have
pandastrong Fairplay: but you can't get over your bias, can you?
pandastrong Fairplay: prok
Verbena Pennyfeather: Now, if you wish to BITCH PISS AND MOAN LIKE LITTLE CHILDREN OVER A SUPPOSED SLIGHT Go right ahead.
pandastrong Fairplay: I am not bitching, pissing, or moaning
Prokofy Neva: CAn anyone else agree that hectoring about who uploaded one picture and pretending that act was NOT indicative of the forums jackals, raise their hand?
Verbena Pennyfeather: Otherwise, lets drop the enite fucking FIGHT, and debate, civily, our ideas and come up with a mutually agreeable stance.
pandastrong Fairplay: but I am not going to be insulted in a conversation
pandastrong Fairplay: end of story
Prokofy Neva: Verbena, he is not conceding that stakeholder is a legitimate word, and trying to undermine the concept.
Verbena Pennyfeather: OK, let me talk then real fat
Verbena Pennyfeather: fast, even
pandastrong Fairplay: Prok, you are bringing up my "track record" and using it to dismiss my ideas
pandastrong Fairplay: you are not fit to be an officer
Prokofy Neva: That's what you're doing.
Prokofy Neva: You did not come into this group with sincereity, you don't care about such groups, you came to heckle.
Prokofy Neva: That's clear, because you've doing it now.
Verbena Pennyfeather: Stakeholder, as we are going to define it now, is someone who plays on SL and has an interest in keeping the game alive.  Iisat OK with everyone?
pandastrong Fairplay: No, I am not
Grunion Shaftoe: I am suggesting that the portrayal of those who do business on SL is not the same as those who have invested their corporate energies in the sole service of making this platform a better and better experience for those who wish to embrace ...
pandastrong Fairplay: I argued a point prok
pandastrong Fairplay: that is all
pandastrong Fairplay: but you cant get past all of it can you?
Grunion Shaftoe: the concept of a user-driven system of values and rules
Verbena Pennyfeather: OK, then we do it like THIS.
Prokofy Neva: Yes that's good enough Verbena, and the purpose in that term's usage was to underscore recognition and legitimacy of the things that Phil wants to de-legitimize and privilege content creators uber alles
Prokofy Neva: that's all
Prokofy Neva: that's all ti's about
Verbena Pennyfeather: Panda, point you are arguing, in consice terms please.
Prokofy Neva: pretty straightfoward -- stake is people who invest time, talent, treasure or all three or some form of involvement in the world
Prokofy Neva: and who are affected by decisions
Prokofy Neva: that part is imoprtant
Prokofy Neva: because not every trial account or beta tester who never logs on anymore is AFFECTED
pandastrong Fairplay: LL is a private company with a marketing department. We are customers of LL, and stakeholders in SL. This distinction must be upheld
pandastrong Fairplay: oh and point number 2
Narmotur Pendragon: so you have to be directly affected?
Prokofy Neva: affected
Grunion Shaftoe: Prok : But your stake is optional , in your own service and at your own choice, wheras 99% of the lindens are doing this as a JOB and the other 1% are doing it as a DREAM
Verbena Pennyfeather: Ok, Prok and Panda, what you've both stated work together with each other.
pandastrong Fairplay: point number 2: prok, stay in conversation, and dont address my history or my intentions
Prokofy Neva: ? I'm not doing it as a dream or a job? huh? oh please
Prokofy Neva: who decides?
Grunion Shaftoe: to colour their actions as other than that is unfair and biased.
Prokofy Neva: it is meant as a simple term to indicate that Linden Lab cannot do something like crush the Gom, or not remove bounce scripts that harm people, or suddenly remove land sale tabs from the map
Grunion Shaftoe: you are like a whining little child screaming at the injustice of the nanny trying to raise a bunch of kids (this pltform) to be a viable adult product.
Narmotur Pendragon: LL could pull the plug tomorrow, if you don't understand that, there are deeper issues.
Prokofy Neva: without CONSULTING THOSE THEY AFFECT AND GETTING THEIR IMPORTANT AND WE DO NOT ACCEPT TOWNHALLS KABUKI THEATER AS THAT
Grunion Shaftoe: Prok : Only GOM can crush the GOM
pandastrong Fairplay: continue, verb
Verbena Pennyfeather: Ohhh, I'm gonna wait, Panda luv.  Lets let all the venom out now.
Grunion Shaftoe: Rights aren't given by any state or person, but only by GOD and the only person who can lose them are those who surrender those rights for a percieved value
Grunion Shaftoe: if GOM wants to keep doing business, they will
pandastrong Fairplay: I am all peaches and cream, verb! ;)
Grunion Shaftoe: I have faith that they are creativce and inventive
Enabran Templar: I demand an explanation.
Enabran Templar: Why is cocoanut back in the officer list?
pandastrong Fairplay: enabran, my views are not important because I am not sincere
Prokofy Neva: Because I invited her?
pandastrong Fairplay: I will send you a transcript
Prokofy Neva: Because she agreed?
Enabran Templar: I thought she agreed to step down for the good of the group.
Enabran Templar: Obviously she is only here to grief the group.
Grunion Shaftoe: I also have faith that all the persons who have made money and a life here in SL will be able to handle whatever linden could throw at them. Considering that LL wants the active participation of such creative and energetic persons ...
Enabran Templar: And make light of our objectives.
Grunion Shaftoe: what do you reall think they will do ?
Grunion Shaftoe: Prok : stop being a victim. You're a survivor - you know it, i know it, dogs know it. you're better than this mediocre whining and useless bitching
Enabran Templar: I'm disappointed, Prokofy. If we're to get any work done, we cannot have rogue appointments of griefer officers.
Verbena Pennyfeather: Ok, some issues, here, to help break things down.  I'm gonna start calling people out now, so suck it up and learn
Aimee Weber: Enabran!! hi! :D
Prokofy Neva: I'm not being a victim, I'm insistingo n the meaning of words generally understood
Grunion Shaftoe: now lets strap up our fucking balls and get around to making SL the fantastic thing it can be - TOGETHER
Prokofy Neva: which you try to undermine knowing full well their ordinary use in RL and even in SL
Enabran Templar: Aimee, dahling, bless your kind heart, you were not griefed in the forums today.
Verbena Pennyfeather: Prok, tone DOWN the attacks, like now.  I could get a fuck lessi f yer officer for the universe itself, all it;s doing is causing strife where it's not needed.
Aimee Weber: I KNOW!! :D :D
Enabran Templar: You know who I credit?
Aimee Weber: torrid?
Verbena Pennyfeather: Panda, stop goading Prok.  Prok has strong feelings on some of these issues, and if you keep poking him, he will snap, and this happens.
Enabran Templar: It was that fine Jewish boy, pandastrong. Do you know he went out and, personally, mind you, executed everyone on the list I made last time.
pandastrong Fairplay: I would say  "yes mistress", but I am not in Gor ;)
Enabran Templar: Haha
Verbena Pennyfeather: Damn straight.  Now, lets pretend to be civil for awhile longer, ok?
Prokofy Neva: Verbena, scroll back and look at the tone of the others, it's instructive.
pandastrong Fairplay: guess not
pandastrong Fairplay: haha
Verbena Pennyfeather: Prok, over, now, ok. Same goes for anyone else involved.  Fresh sheet right now.
Enabran Templar: I want to know why griefing officers like Cocoanut, who called us all idiots in the group chat, are being appointed without consultation of the officers at large.
Enabran Templar: This is highly irregular, and most troubling.
Enabran Templar: ...
pandastrong Fairplay: looking down your pants, bra? ;)
Enabran Templar: Hahaha
pandastrong Fairplay: :)
Verbena Pennyfeather: Enabran, we were kinda on a different topic then..I'll open that can of haterade in a moment, please.
pandastrong Fairplay: HATERADE
pandastrong Fairplay: LOVE IT :D
Aimee Weber: /me ponders a new clothing item...the pants-bra
Enabran Templar: /me tips Verbena a boyscout salute
Enabran Templar: Aye.
Toast Bard: HEY BUDDIES
Toast Bard: i just logged on
Aimee Weber: yay toast <3
pandastrong Fairplay: thank god toast is here
Toast Bard: sup????
Verbena Pennyfeather: Now, the issue we were AT, before all the love just started flowing, was that as a whole, we'd like some more diversity regarding exposure to the outside world by LL
Grunion Shaftoe: anyone have a transcript from the meeting with the lindens the other day?
Toast Bard: sweet, an officail t-shirt
Toast Bard: thanks
Verbena Pennyfeather: Now, within THAT issue, we should take into account the fact that, LL wants good marketing, which is good for US, cause it males LL money,that keeps us here to have these lovely talks.
Verbena Pennyfeather: So, NOW within THIS idea, we should ask for a more varied exposure of people to the press and on the webpage, so long as those people chosen want the exposure, and that we all know what the criteria is.
Enabran Templar: On that subject, it's fascinating to note that Catherine got not ONE E-Mail, after her request for resident stories to be considered by the media.
Verbena Pennyfeather: Now, is this concept agreeable?
Prokofy Neva: I expressly didn't send one because I still don't know Linden criteria, I only know what someone like Cienna Samiam puts on the forums
Prokofy Neva: and I'd like to hear more what LL criteria is
pandastrong Fairplay: Sorry, verb, but I do not agree
Enabran Templar: The criteria was posted quite clearly by Catherine.
Verbena Pennyfeather: SO, we need to know what the criteria is, for Exposure by LL.
Enabran Templar: There are a million PR opportunities that can be taken
Prokofy Neva: not clear enough for me how she PICKS then using that
Enabran Templar: Prokofy, she picks depending on the subject matter.
Prokofy Neva: Her very criteria as put in the forums would mean she'd have a list of 100, not 3
Enabran Templar: Aren't you a writer?
Enabran Templar: I thought you understood this sort of thing.
Prokofy Neva: and i see from her website and her pitches to the media she has 3
Enabran Templar: Different stories require different people.
Enabran Templar: Yeah, of course
pandastrong Fairplay: it doesn't need to be clear on how she decides, it is her job and none of our business
pandastrong Fairplay: it is how she pays her rent
Enabran Templar: Because people are paranoid whackos and don't want to share your RL info.
pandastrong Fairplay: her RL rent
Prokofy Neva: Nope, not the subject matter, she picks the 3 because these stories tend to be formulaic and superficial for mass media
Prokofy Neva: there aren't these spcialized topics you imagine really except for maybe Architectural Digest
pandastrong Fairplay: exactly, and that is how companies make money
Verbena Pennyfeather: OK, so, two different sides here. LL needs to make the criteia clearer, and people who are intrested need to get off their lazy butts, and not expect LL just to choose them.
Enabran Templar: If you're not going to be all secretive about stupid things, odds are, you'll get to talk to the press eventually.
pandastrong Fairplay: No, verb, there are 3 sieds
Prokofy Neva: I don't seek to talk to the press, believe me, when I do, you'll know : )
Verbena Pennyfeather: DO share.
Enabran Templar: But, Prokofy, for example, won't even divulge RL gender and other simple info, so that's not really someone worth talking to.
pandastrong Fairplay: I believe that equity in PR is actually detrimental
pandastrong Fairplay: against our common good
Prokofy Neva: Um, did you read the WWD story Enabran?
Enabran Templar: pandastrong, of course. There's a lot of boring, stupid people around here. And obscene.
Verbena Pennyfeather: I'm not saying equity, Panda.
Prokofy Neva: It said "For privacy reasons this person preferred to give their avatar name not their RL name"
Prokofy Neva: did yo notice that Enabran?
pandastrong Fairplay: equity in PR is contradictory
Enabran Templar: Phht, boring.
Verbena Pennyfeather: I'm not for that, Panda
Prokofy Neva: no one is required to give all that to the media, and the media can get it privately without PUTTTING in in the story AS YOU DO
Enabran Templar: Don't expect to go to the top of the list if you won't share your info.
Grunion Shaftoe: I suggest next meeting with a linden, all of us wear our official Tshirt
Verbena Pennyfeather: Here's what I'm throwing out.  LL puts out the rules and such to be a "press agent"
Enabran Templar: People who won't share their info are only included because the writers are desperate, kiddo.
Prokofy Neva: You don't even get the simple rules of how a journalist would work with a source in this online game envroonemtn
Enabran Templar: Desperate and unable to find real people.
Verbena Pennyfeather: You follow those rules, get put in the pot.
Verbena Pennyfeather: Youget chosen, based on LL marketing needs, for whatever marketing needs done.
Prokofy Neva: OH, so then you feel the WWD mentioning Aimee, who didn't give her RL name for the story, is um "desperate" of that writer? Thanks.
Enabran Templar: Nah, I'm sure there's plenty of things I don't get that you're a big ol' expert on Prokofy, absolutely.
pandastrong Fairplay: That makes sense, Berb
Enabran Templar: I'm not saying you need to hand out your name
pandastrong Fairplay: Verb*
Aimee Weber: what?
Enabran Templar: But you can't be saying, "Oh, won't tell you my sex. Won't tell you my job. Won't tell you where I live."
Aimee Weber: i gave her my RL name
Verbena Pennyfeather: Now, the only changes we ask, are abit more transparency on what the choosing criteria is.  If you don't meet it, too damn bad.
Prokofy Neva: You know something Enabran? I happen to know QUITE a bit about this, more than you know at your level LOL.
Enabran Templar: If you're going to be secretive about stupid shit, you're a boring lead.
Prokofy Neva: ROFL
Prokofy Neva: but not for publication in the story because she made a point of putting in the story the bit about protecting avatar privacy
Aimee Weber: but i told her that there are some rather derranged people who have an unhealthy fixation on me, and that if she could avoid using it, i would prefer it for my safety
pandastrong Fairplay: Prok, can you have a conversation without insulting someone?
Prokofy Neva: or was that for Torrid? anyway it's in there go look
pandastrong Fairplay: or condescending?
Enabran Templar: Prokofy, haha, at the end of my life, I hope I have something similarly enjoyable to cling to in online chit-chats.
Prokofy Neva: um Enabran is claiming that i have no right to talk to the media unless I deliver to him my RL info through that sotry
Aimee Weber: she had my permission but also had my preference
Prokofy Neva: that's about as insulting as it gets
pandastrong Fairplay: no it isnt
Narmotur Pendragon: that is hardly what he said
pandastrong Fairplay: leave people out of this, talk about the concept
Prokofy Neva: given that it was my speaking to RL media, without linking my avatar in TSO, that led to the grand witch-hunt, that you are all continuing in LL, so SHAME ON ALL OF YOU.
Prokofy Neva: FOR SHAME
Verbena Pennyfeather: OK, going on Prok for this one.
Prokofy Neva: and I do not view you as valid colleagues in a group like this
pandastrong Fairplay: if you can't do that, you should not be a officer of the group
Prokofy Neva: You need the back story Verbena if you are "going on" Prok
Grunion Shaftoe: Prok : I think that if you wish to stand up and lead, then you have a responsibility to tell people who you are. That's part of being a public figure. You want anonymity? don't expect people to follow ot listen to you.
Enabran Templar: pandastrong, don't worry about it. It's post-mid-life crisis time for Prokofy, and s/he needs to cling to something that makes him/her the expert.
Prokofy Neva: they know FULL WELL what they are doing
Prokofy Neva: see there's a good example
Verbena Pennyfeather: And, we return to the love again!
pandastrong Fairplay: Prok, stop having a tempertantrum every 30 seconds
Prokofy Neva: scribing fake RL stuff to me, insulting me with this fake RL stuff lol
Prokofy Neva: um, I fight back as you all know
Verbena Pennyfeather: Panda, and others, stop goading him every 29 seconds.
Prokofy Neva: you met your match you bullies
Prokofy Neva: shame on you
pandastrong Fairplay: I am not goading
pandastrong Fairplay: or hectoring
pandastrong Fairplay: at all
Aimee Weber: who is our match?!
pandastrong Fairplay: I am having a conversation about ideas, not people
Aimee Weber: lol
pandastrong Fairplay: stop calling me a fucking bully
Dain Lambert: It's interesting - you can log off SL for an hour and when you come back the same old arguments are going on in here ...  totally fascinating
Aimee Weber: totally dain
Enabran Templar: Indeed it is, Dain
Narmotur Pendragon: it's because time doesn't really pass here
Enabran Templar: But I am confident this group can rise above the griefers who have infected its officer corps.
Aimee Weber: its stuck in a loop
Dain Lambert: It's like being in some weird temporal vortex or something
Enabran Templar: And return to the matters of justice.
Verbena Pennyfeather: Yaknow, I'm tempted, as of right now.
Prokofy Neva: You're part of that infection Enabran, and I for one to not consider any serious work is possible with you as an officer.
pandastrong Fairplay: If I didn't take this seriously before, then I really am now
Verbena Pennyfeather: To start a NEW group, ANOTHER one.
Aimee Weber: add me verbena?
Aimee Weber: :D
Enabran Templar: Prokofy, sorry you feel that way, gramps.
Enabran Templar: It's all good, though. I'm a patient sort.
Prokofy Neva: I view this group as merely a stage of some kind, some sort of ampitheater for people tod do political theater or attempt little reconciliation sessions
Prokofy Neva: It' snot likeminded
Verbena Pennyfeather: Open group, but I'll be the only imparital arbitrator.
Prokofy Neva: Enabran doesn't feel there's anyting wrong with the world, and I do.
Aimee Weber: like lordfly's group
pandastrong Fairplay: lordfly's group rules
Enabran Templar: There's many problems in our troubled world.
Aimee Weber: ya i like his group.
Prokofy Neva: I'd suggeste you go to that group then and stop harassing this one.
Enabran Templar: Many perpetrated by Prokofy himself, in fact.
pandastrong Fairplay: No, I like this one too
Prokofy Neva: You don't need to be EVERYWHERE
pandastrong Fairplay: haha
pandastrong Fairplay: jesus
Verbena Pennyfeather: In fact, I think I will now!  give me a moment to go spend another bit of cash I can't afford, to start the group.
Aimee Weber: <--- everywhere.
pandastrong Fairplay: can we get back to topic?
Prokofy Neva: you are in Anshe's and Lordfly's, so stay there and stop harassing those who founded this one
Aimee Weber: prok, do you need me to model for any of your ravenglass ads?
Toast Bard: guys
Grunion Shaftoe: Founders like... Anshe?
Prokofy Neva: No thanks Aimee I'm good.
Toast Bard: i say this as nicely as i can
Enabran Templar: Officer Pandastrong, I would recommend against indulging Prokofy in his/her bids for antagonism.
Toast Bard: shut up
Aimee Weber: i am just putting myself out there
pandastrong Fairplay: toast, will you go to prom with me?
Prokofy Neva: I don't believe in leaving a group and folding my tent because the founder Anshe grandstanded and split it off
Enabran Templar: It is detrimental to the health of the group. Instead, let us continue the business of justice.
Prokofy Neva: I stick to my guns
Toast Bard: i thought you'd never ask panda
pandastrong Fairplay: that is admirable prock
Enabran Templar: And perhaps, after enough time being ignored, Prokofy will go elsewhere.
Enabran Templar: And we may continue our business.
Enabran Templar: Of justice.
Aimee Weber: JUSTICE!
Enabran Templar: And watching it.
Enabran Templar: In the metaverse.
Grunion Shaftoe: Prok ; what makes a colleague 'valid' ?
pandastrong Fairplay: Aimee, I wasn't kidding about that whole 10% thing
pandastrong Fairplay: they have to be FIC, grunion
Aimee Weber: :O
Aimee Weber: what 10% thing?
Enabran Templar: Grunion, Porcine Declaration is required for a colleague to be validated.
pandastrong Fairplay: as your manager
pandastrong Fairplay: the reason I am griefing this group
pandastrong Fairplay: to continue your mass earnings
pandastrong Fairplay: duh
Grunion Shaftoe: eNABRAN: i HAVE TO SQUEAL LIKE A PIG ?
Enabran Templar: The process behind which is mysterious beyond words. But seems to have a lot to do with flattery and praise.
Aimee Weber: :O
Prokofy Neva: Grunion, these peeople who invaded the group on Jauani's invitation are here to harass me with their forums baggage
Aimee Weber: :O
Verbena Pennyfeather: Ok, seeong as how I'm just getting annoyed now, anyone who wants to actually discuss these points, hop over to the Secondlife Lobby Group.
Grunion Shaftoe: Porcine declaration means to 'squal like a pig'
Prokofy Neva: I don't view them as colleagues with whom I can work on this job
Prokofy Neva: if they want political debates we can arrange those on Tuesdays at 3 p.m. or whatever
pandastrong Fairplay: Prok, I am the hostess with the mostess
Enabran Templar: Thus, to be taken seriously by the Porcine Order, you shall have to praise and flatter Prokofy.
Grunion Shaftoe: Prok : well, I'm not here to harass you with foul language. The queen's english is good enough on most accounts, when assisted by logic and reason.
Prokofy Neva: but I think it's a fairly focused and small group, not like Anshe's attempt to make something "representational" or Lordflyl'sattmempt to pitch some "IM direct dmoecracy" thing to the Lindens
Prokofy Neva: I don't even care about meeting with Lindens
pandastrong Fairplay: pfft, who does
Prokofy Neva: so if you need power and posturing platforms, this isn't the group for you
pandastrong Fairplay: I mean lindens are sooooooo 2003
Toast Bard: omg 2003
Enabran Templar: That's right. Prokofy is already taking all the power and doing all the posturing for everyone.
Grunion Shaftoe: heee hee
Grunion Shaftoe: that's funny.... ;
Grunion Shaftoe: oh .... SQUEEEEEEEEE!
Enabran Templar: Unfortunate, but true.
Grunion Shaftoe: oh .... SQUEEEEEEEEE!
Grunion Shaftoe: oh .... SQUEEEEEEEEE!
Grunion Shaftoe: am I a vlid person yet?
Enabran Templar: Now.
Grunion Shaftoe: oh .... SQUEEEEEEEEE!
Enabran Templar: No.
Grunion Shaftoe: Valid, sorry.
pandastrong Fairplay: hahahaha
Grunion Shaftoe: hee hee
Enabran Templar: You need to squee in support of Prokofy.
pandastrong Fairplay: oh jesus that was funny
Enabran Templar: Pay attention, Lad!
Frans Charming: lol, i just noticed all those cool new officers.
Enabran Templar: Well, Frans, we noticed YOU! :0
Enabran Templar: And soon, the metaverse will notice ALL of us!
pandastrong Fairplay: Frans, officers are the new black this season
Enabran Templar: Haha, pandastrong
Frans Charming: hehe
Toast Bard: aw manz
Toast Bard: i have to go buddies
Toast Bard: kiss kiss
pandastrong Fairplay: later tater
Frans Charming: cya toast
Second Life: Toast Bard has left this session.
Second Life: Verbena Pennyfeather has left this session.
Second Life: Grunion Shaftoe has left this session.
Second Life: Aimee Weber has left this session.
Second Life: pandastrong Fairplay has left this session.
Second Life: Frans Charming has left this session.
Enabran Templar: Now, next on the agenda. I'm liking the Lakers this year. Who's with me?
Schwanson Schlegel: Heat...all the way
Enabran Templar: Yeah. Heat's going to do okay.
Second Life: Dain Lambert has left this session.

Comments

[Diamond Jim]

"Just to give an explanation of vote after the vote, I voted "yes" to recall Jauani, despite my loathing of this pernicious institution"

Wow, that's twice now I've seen you admit to this.

And then there's the posting of group IMs you're doing here - after whinging about the same thing being done on another site...

And then the encouragement of ARing, that you are supposedly so against, in one of your earlier blog entries...

Do I even have to type the word?

Nah, I don't "have to" do anything.

However, since I "want to" - let me just say that you are the biggest fucking hypocrite I have seen in my entire online life.

Certainly, you will counter with all manner of desperate excuses and diversionary tactics.

That's ok though, because each time you do, your credibility (the little that you have left with some less than quick folks) drops another ratchet tooth, and I relish in that. I really do.

[Prokofy Neva]

Um, I was *asked* to post the group IMS, people WANT the transcripts, duh. Nothing SECRET about this OPEN group and the open transcripts of its meetings DUH. You *are* truly an asswipe if you think you can play gotcha with that one lol.

And I opppose officer recall on principle, I don't think it's sound as a mechanism, I urge its removal. What is to be done when it is used on others in a group and used on yourself? Use the workaround, or vote yes, to make a point *shrugs*. Why not? It's a feature of the game that I oppose and I think it's rotten but if it occurs in a group I will vote in it -- most often to abstain to try to get the griefing over. I think in the case of the bad behaviour of Jauani Wu, it really raises the Algerian question: do you need to fight terrorists and killers and extremists who use democracy to come to power by stopping the democracy? These are not easy questions to answer. IN that instance when it was unexpectedly placed before me, I voted to recall Jauani because he has behave illegitimately from the get-go so as to undermine the whole concept of a group and its internal democracy.

As for ARing, I also think this is a police-informant's system. I don't go around bullying people with it. But if someone AR's me, or threatens me with AR, then I am forced to AR them pre-emptively to get my side of the story on the record with the Lindens -- there's no other way to do it. Also, I make it a policy if I am called by a tenant and some really obvious griefing is occuring like sexual harassment or fire prim bombing, I join in the chorus of witnesses reporting this at their request.

I don't believe in AR-ing for AR'ing sake to frivolously and vindictively settle scores. That's what I see happening all the time, on speech issues in particular. I'd be particularly opposed to reporting someone swearing in PG, or swearing repeatedly at me at all -- again, unless they AR me, so that I am forced to AR them with the chat history and make the point that they are maliciously and falsely doing an AR.

So my AR is merely an effort to get the story on the record with the Lindens as an example of someone's MISUSE of the AR against me vindictively, and not a use of the AR on them. Again, try to understand these subtleties that I know may be beyond your intelligence.

If you don't understand these distinctions, your loss. You're a heckler and a vicious sniper here on my blog and have no legitimacy due to that posture.

[Diamond Jim]

Excuses and assholes... excuses and assholes...

Funny how they seem to always go hand and hand init?

Excuses do not change blatant hypocrisy.

References to Algeria and the defunct Soviet Union don't either.

Face it Prok, your a hypocrite, and most people know it.

I would get a job at a circus, and play fortune teller, if I knew that all my customers would be as predictable as you. I'd be rich, and you'd still be one horrific asshole!

You'll never accomplish what you seek to in this virtual world Prok, you are simply an embittered, tactless, uncouth old lady with crow's feet the size of the Grand Canyon from years of sneering, jeering, and scowling. Anyone with an iota of common sense and clarity knows this.

You are the power hungry person you fear. You desperately want to project your own traits onto others, in an attempt to subdue your own guilt.

It's akin to the lover who cannot trust, because they know that they themself are not trustworthy.

Thank god you will never have the power you crave. You destroy any chance of that on a daily basis, and it's good entertainment. Daytime drama got nothin' on you.

[Prokofy Neva]

um, and your name inworld is...?

[Diamond Jim]

My inworld name is Prokofy Sucks.

Do you really think I would tell you, so that you could launch yourself into another of your juvenile, ToS breaking mass neg campaigns with you and your slew of alts? Or have you hatefully drag my name all over cyber space for months like you have with Aimee, Cienna, Nolan, Jauani and the rest?

First rule of dealing with obsessive assholes from hell - never tell them who you really are. You never know what type of sick lunatic you are dealing with, although, in your case, I think it's fairly clear..

It's going to be a happy day indeed for SL when you finally get LL so aggravated that they ban your ass from SL altogether.

Before you scoff at my prediction, realize that myself and others warned you that this was the road you were headed down with the forums... and lookie see! It happened.

[Prokofy Neva]

I don't view my banning from the forums as legitimate at all. It's an example of unequal enforcement of the TOS, and indeed I'm at worst a victim of selective prosection but at best a victim of FIC misuse of the AR system. I don't chose to campaign on this issue, however, it's not worth it. The forums are filled with low-lifes, thugs, and pathetic losers. The rare visions of intelligence there flash, and if they are not crushed by the Forum FIC, they withdraw silently in disgust.

It's entirely my right to critique people by name in my blog when they constantly criticize me on forums from which I'm banned and cannot defend myself.

It's not an offense against the TOS to neg someone, and also decide to neg them on your alt. Not an offense at all. This has been proved many times. And they're about to remove negs altogether anyway.

[Diamond Jim]

"I don't view my banning from the forums as legitimate at all."

It doesn't matter how you view it. You're gone. Linden Lab views it as legitimate, and so do about 99% of other folks who have spoken to me about it.

You don't know how to be tolerant of people who don't think the same way you do. You don't know how to criticize without fabricating lies and bizarre, paranoid back stories about people, and resorting to your brand of horrific ad hominem. You obsess about certain people. Worst of all, you are so fucking arrogant as to think you are smarter than everyone else - that has been, and will continue to be your downfall.

Orchestrated negging with alts IS a TOS violation, just ask the other overly vindictive misanthrope of SL, Angel Leviathan, who also shares with you a persecution complex. To her credit, she doesn't think her existence in SL signifies the second coming of Christ like you do.

[Prokofy Neva]

1. The 5 percent of the forum FIC who are themselves far more guilty of TOS violations are your sampling for 99 percent? ROFL. Fraud.

2. I'd invite readers to look at all your posts just on this blog to determine who engages in the bizarre and ad hominem attacks. What's different about me compared to all the newbies and timid midbies who are appalled at you and the rest of the forums jackals is that *I fight back*. Hard to take, hmm? But I reject all your claims as easily reputed just by reading my posts.

3. Angel Leviathan is neither banned from the forums or the game, more's the pity, because she is truly a vindictive psychopath. She swoops down on people completely unrelated to any quarrel, i.e. like my tenants, and negs them or tells them not to rent from me. That's just insane. She hits people on all 5 alts for no reason they can fathom. Anyway who gets a neg from me is directly involved in bad behaviour to me and they know the difference. It's not a TOS violation.

4. I'm not the second coming anything. Who are you, fraud?

[Diamond Jim]

"1. The 5 percent of the forum FIC who are themselves far more guilty of TOS violations are your sampling for 99 percent? ROFL. Fraud."

Nope. I am speaking of people in-world. People who are well aware of your shenanigans and appalling behavior, who are just normal, everyday SLers. I hate to break it to ya prok, your rep stinks, and rightly so. There are vastly more people than you care to admit, who pay attention to what happens on the forums.

"2. I'd invite readers to look at all your posts just on this blog to determine who engages in the bizarre and ad hominem attacks. What's different about me compared to all the newbies and timid midbies who are appalled at you and the rest of the forums jackals is that *I fight back*. Hard to take, hmm? But I reject all your claims as easily reputed just by reading my posts."

You don't "fight back". You attack through vicious lies and paranoid twisting of reality. The instigator does not get to cry foul when her appalling behavior is pushed back against. I think Newton's 3rd law can be morphed to fit this situation nicely.

"3. Angel Leviathan is neither banned from the forums or the game, more's the pity, because she is truly a vindictive psychopath. She swoops down on people completely unrelated to any quarrel, i.e. like my tenants, and negs them or tells them not to rent from me. That's just insane. She hits people on all 5 alts for no reason they can fathom. Anyway who gets a neg from me is directly involved in bad behaviour to me and they know the difference. It's not a TOS violation."

Angel was indeed banned from the forums for quite some time. This is because she, not unlike you, hasn't an iota of self-control. I said nothing about her being banned in-world, although she was suspended numerous times. Hopefully, your suspensions are forthcoming, what with the soliciting of the WA for tenants, your harrassment of mentors who are there to help -- not sell, your disgusting and rude monopolization of round table events, your gang negging with your army of alts, et al. You will weed yourself out, I am sure of that.

"4. I'm not the second coming anything. Who are you, fraud?"

I'm Jim Stuckey, and you're not (Jesus).