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« Sex in Second Life | Main | What Hamlet Erases »

March 11, 2006

Comments

Cory Edo

"a) don't post on the forums; b) if they post on the forums, obey the TOS; c) are not hateful and vindictive and d) don't require special attention to succeed; e) don't look for, or get, favours from Lindens on a consistent, regular, persistent, systematic basis."

So essentially its forums, forums, attitude, hypothetical favoritism, and hypothetical favoritism?

"The FIC...is the term applied *to that very phenomenon of the forums itself* whereby certain people get a pass."

Again, its mostly forum-based?

Prokofy Neva

The forums issue segues very much into the world. How? Because people use the forums to warp the platform, and get the Lindens' attention -- the Lindens read the forums. The forums are where they advertise their businesses, collect their mentors in the horridly named GOV (Group of Volunteers, or prototype government), the forums are not just a talk-shop -- they are a portal into the world with many economic and social consequences.

Some FIC avoid General in the forums entanglements in order to keep their rep free of drama but they show up in classifieds or groups or whatever and make a splash there.


Cory Edo

How are people using the forums to "warp the platform"? People state their opinions or discuss issues there - just like every resident of SL can, if they choose to. It would be rather silly if the Lindens didn't read the their own forums.

Let's say the official SL forums were entirely done away with - everything, not just General/Off Topic. What happens to the definition of FIC then?

Also, in reference to your very latest post, which also heavily uses the FIC terminology - I have to say I'm not sure how you reconcile the two concepts, the one you're espousing in this post and the one in the latest post re: Bedazzled's work. I've very rarely, if ever, seen Bedazzled post in the forums.

Cocoanut

Bedazzled posted once that I know of - a VERY VERY HURT response to the fact that I had criticized the Lindens handing Bedazzled Wells Fargo on a platter - which was even BEFORE I even knew it was Bedazzled!

Since it was Bedazzled, ergo, it had to be that I was attacking the folks at Bedazzled - according to that very, very hurt post I read.

Now we have the Developer's Directory, so supposedly things like that won't happen anymore. However they do. And anyway, now I know that Bedazzled IS Lindens and Friends, so it's all kind of a moot point.

My definition of FIC: Residents who enjoy special perks, privileges and rights, and the ear of the Lindens as a result of having favored status as friends of Lindens.

coco

Prokofy Neva

Yes, this is what is always skewed about this debate -- but it's no accident because those dinged by the criticism are really zealous to discount the criticism completely.

The issue isn't that they are creative and got to do something cool. The issue isn't that they show up at a casting call for a university, or answer the classified ad. Bully for them if they do that. We've all done that in our chosen fields and we all understand that you have to network, show up, show your resume, be prepared, blah blah blah.

But imagine a RL situation where you couldn't even find out about the job because it was only secretly notified. Or imagine that sure, the ad is open, and you can apply to get the job but the job always goes to the same people...or worst of all...that job is part of what throws the platform their way and their client's way...that they have special considerations to actually shape the very world we live in....to actually do something like succeed in removing telehubs to harm other's business, for example.

THAT is what is wrong with it all. It's not just some special project in isolation. It's always about having the power to CHANGE our world THEIR way to suit THEIR needs.

I don't need vehicles to have better camera angles to help make machinima films now. I need officers in groups to not steal land and I need group finances to work so that asswipes don't accuse me of theft, and I need a million other things before I need somebody's game dev wishlist to be amped up.

There's also the problem of the "specialness" and "sensitivity" of all this and the easily-ruffled feathers and angered indignation at being asked to be accountable in public for things that affect all of us -- because we are essentially at close quarters in a shared space.

Let's take something like Global Kids. They have a cool concept, they get a cool sim, they have cool Kim Anubis and her cool group work with them, and everything is cool, cool, cool. It takes up Linden time, too, of course, but that's the price for coolness! But...*is* it cool? Nobody dare really ask if it is and look at it critically and see if anybody goes to it, or whether in fact what it's doing is crushing resident initiative, resident business, even on the teen grid, just like the outside Linden-feted stuff crushes things on the adult grid and competes with resident business.

I haven't seen Global Kids because it's on the teen grid. But I ask the question, just taking it as one generic project that has been feted and FICed. Is it worth all the fuss? Is it any good? And I reiterate what I already argued when I had to read all this FIC argumentation about how they're "the very best" and therefore get to rule our world....well, just because.

http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2005/12/our_world_is_no.html

Kim Anubis

Prok, if you want to know attendance figures or don’t understand the goal of Global Kids, Inc.’s SL project or what organization is checking its effectiveness and how they’re doing so, contact Global Kids, Inc. and ask. I’m not their spokesperson; I was just hired to do a build to their specs. If you want to flame me and lure me in here to play with you on your blog, that’s one thing. But, Prok, I think you would probably approve of this organization and what they’re doing. If you don’t, then that’s something else, but please don’t attack their project without checking it out first.

I’ve indulged in posting a rant or two in my day, as you pointed out, so I understand how much fun you’re having here. However, I’ve seen your insightful comments about SL and its future potential and pitfalls posted elsewhere under your real name. I know everyone needs a break to play, but I can’t help feeling it’s a shame that you don’t write commentary like that here, because I think it would do more good.

Anyway, where were we? Oh yeah, you’re the evil land baron and I’m the “cool” content baroness and we’re mortal enemies because . . . I dunno. Never mind, just feed me my next line and I’ll just play along.

Prokofy Neva

1. I've read the website, it seems like a good project, but frankly, when I ask actual teenagers actually playing Second Life about it, they are either uninterested, found it lame, or found it populated with the TG FIC. I didn't see it fit to write anecdotal testimony like that the first time I commented, but since you're pushing me to do it with your provocative post, I'll include that comment now -- no teens I actually know are finding it compelling. They aren't a scientific sample. But...Now why are we not surprised? I don't find Democracy Island compelling *either* -- a much vaunted and feted project on the adult grid that I actually have major questions about, especially the way it combines profit-making and non-profit grants and doesn't really seek broader participation from the "public" it is supposed to serve.

BTW, having a "developers' meeting" in which everyone is told the sim will be full so take a number doesn't count.

So I *raise the question*. I just refuse to be propagandized. I'd like to know whether these projects, much-vaunted, much feted by Lindens, and touted by people like you who make a living from them, are even interesting or worth it for our world. I do the same thing when local politicians spend the taxpayer's dollars on some unnecessary park reconstruction just to give a friend a building contract.

When I see the same bunch getting involved, the same bunch so heavily rewarded already, and so controlling of the forums, I *raise questions*. The reader is invited to make up their own mind and do their own research.

2. I *did* read the website, check around, but not being a teen, it's not appropriate for me to go and visit Global Kids for some kind of exhaustive analysis. I *ask questions*. There's a breathless, uncritical approach to all these things that is hugely annoying. Could we get statistics? What kind of traffic and participation, etc. Obviously, any private group can come along, rent a sim, and do whatever the hell they want in this grid. They do get the non-profit sim rates that other projects don't get so the public is right to ask -- are they all that?

3. Oh, stop it, Kim, you're just being an ass. This isn't a "play blog". This is my commentary about the world I live in. I don't post under my real name because I *already have* idiot and creepy stalkers outing my RL and harassing me with hate email to my regular email. No thanks. '

Stop trying to pretend you can "appeal to my better self". This is like Hiro Pendragon telling me to "stop role-playing" if I write something he doesn't like. It's bullshit.

Read my past long post dissecting your tone and your attitude and your contribution to the malice on the forums, that says it all.

Kim Anubis

1. The reports I’ve had regarding the reception of the project are not congruent with what you’re saying here.

2. As I already told you, if you want statistics, contact Global Kids, Inc., because no one else can give you official numbers.

3. I wasn’t asking you to post here under your real name. I said I’ve seen commentary about SL elsewhere under your real name and that I think what you wrote there was more valuable and effective than what you post here.

No, Prok, your past long post ranting about me and misquoting me doesn’t say it all. I did find it tremendously entertaining, though I wish you’d given me a title as cool as “infinite antelope” and included a cartoon caricature of me (in the style of the little guy on the Monopoly board) lighting cigars with 1000 L$ bills.

Prokofy Neva

1. It's too bad if they "aren't congruent," Kim, I can only cast a more critical eye on something that you are *paid to do* so have no critical stance about, geez, that ought to be obvious.

2. If at some point the hype continues, and the anecodotal information coming off the teen grid seems out of sync more and more with the hype, it would be worth it then sending journalists such as from the Herald in to cover it, and to make the kind of investigations of facts and figures one would expect. At this point, I can only say: here we go again, another FIC project, another set of feted people getting paid, another inside caper, another discount sim, another thing that everyone is all breathless about, but the minute you ask even one person outside the magic circle, well, what do you think, you get that less-than-breathless response. It's like *so many other things* of its like, Kim, please. You just have no critical distance on this stuff.

3. You're welcome to cherry-pick what you like out of my writings, that's fine, but you cannot me to morph my blog around this supposed "critical judgement" of yours because I believe Second Life desperately needs dissent. It's really a shame that I have so little company out here on the fringes of non-involvement with the FIC, non-fear, non-sychophancy. A world can't grow with such feting all the time, it has not critical feedback which is vital for any living system.

Yes, Forseti remains the "Infinite Antelope" and he will never know what that means, fully, and it will keep him awake nights gnashing and gnawing his teeth trying to think what it could mean. Maybe if you were as good a builder as Forseti, you'd get a cute nick-name too? I dunno. Meanwhile, go and and think that cutting and pasting off SLOG is "misquoting" all you like. When your blog has the courage to take comments and not wipe them off as they are still doing, come back and tell me about it.

Prokofy Neva

BTW, last night I happened to stumble on globalkid bixby's lot near Tuliptree where I have a subsidized newbie community. I took the opportunity to read 4 times his cloying, somewhat self-serving book about his "SL Adventures". (It's a genre we see an awful lot of, most of it on blogs, and now we'll see in books. I could add -- as Jeffrey Gomez could testify -- that I was the first, I believe, to make such a book -- but of course Forseti and others doing it now will take credit, and even steal some of my concepts -- it's that kind of place.)

Anyway, as I flipped the pages of this giant, expensive, book (you have to type each page and upload it individually for $10 per texture upload), it confirmed my feelings.

Anyone who comes in a public world and takes the name of their public tax-exempt organization has to be willing to take some knocks, so please note, this isn't a "personal attack," of the kind I'm always accused of. It's *public scrutiny about where our tax-exemption dollars go*.

Like many urban, leftish types, GKB came upon SL and found himself incredibly innovative by making not something "like everybody else" but -- as I could patiently explain to him -- like everybody *other* else. Evidently, he didn't like the Tudor houses and the bear rugs with the MF fuck poses, as Vue magazine summed it up, so he made a tower and waterfalls going up in the air -- it's often the "fascinating discovery" of the anti-suburban crowd that you can utilize the air, so they climb up in it. They're horribly annoyed at everyone else around them and slam their builds, completely unaware that they're making something themselves scarring the horizon. Oh well, that's Second Life, what can you do.

GKB also displays that squeamishness, even fear, that turns then to condemnation of all those who engage in open sex in SL. Some sexy avatar talks to him and he becomes nervous. He stumbles on a sex scene and decides he needs to go PG. Well, that's ok, that's actually befitting for someone dealing with teen themes, but no need to implicitly then condemn the rest of us in M to bourgeous, suburban, SUV-driving, Confederate-flag, Bush-voting hell, hmmm?

He noodles along, doing this and that, letting us know a thousand times a page that he has a day job, and isn't one of those people who has *time to play a game* during the day. He comes on and discovers "social networks" by night, then only the NYC transit strike keeps him home at his game, discovering daytime social networks (presumably people in places outside of America LOL, not to mention all those "people with no lives").

Suddenly, he gets a MacArthur grant. The process by which that happens is murky, but as it belongs to RL, let's throw a veil over it.

Speaking as someone who has also in RL gotten many a MacArthur grant, and gosh, as I think of it, probably in larger amounts, to do what I simply view as far more serious things than noodle around in what really amounts to a game, I take a weather eye to what comes next.

I mean, I'm all for funding public after-school programs for kids. Gosh, I have to make use of them as a working parent. We were all appalled when this nationally prominent after-school program was suddenly going to charge us all $1000 a term for this program, something actually against their bylaws, because of the harsh realities of New York real estate. Since then, a lot of us have had to make do even with wacky things like the Salvation Army, just because they are a warm, safe place with an after-school snack and homework help.

So given that kids go online *anyway* while their harried parents are work (and for many, their non-English speaking care givers don't know what they do online), Global Kids seems like the perfect thing. And likely it will come to play a very important role in the lives of after-school kid-dom.

But...what are they doing in SL? They are sponsoring an essay contest to write about...3-D technology. That is...it's about *itself*.

Like other vaguely leftoid socially "progressive" types, the business side of SL and the money-making aspect leaves them squeamish -- in their quest for a Better World, they'd like to re-do all that capitalist stuff and representative politics as oh-so-passe. They want to have Cooperation and Caring. Not Competition or whatever the mantras are.

So the aspects of SL which are like the Junior Achievement or the 4-H or Girl Scouts or whatever are all passe. Teens cooperating to learn business skills and learning from older people and their peers isn't very interesting.

What they want the kids to do is *write about the thing itself*. It's that giddy glorification of the platform itself we see from the adult FIC.

They could be writing about recycling in their RL neighbourhood, the suffering of Darfur, AIDS (yes, they're taught about AIDS now as young as 10 years old), poverty -- anything that is in their real lives and which they could expect an after-school program to mobilize them on (and no doubt this organization does precisely that in its other programs).

Instead, they're celebrating the platform and electronic technology itself.

Perhaps one could write about how they used this technology to do a business or mobilize on Darfur...except they aren't given positive reinforcement on that score.

I haven't studied the teen grid in depth, but from what I hear of it, it is still plagued with the same issues of the adult grid. Blue and Cyn *still hold land for insiders and give insider tips* --despite the scandals about this on the Herald and the teen forums, this, if anything, like other scandals, only more firmly entrenched the practice.

There's no land auction, so that exacerbates the land problem. Very sophisticated griefing is rampant. To be sure, it is a very exciting and fun place to be doing a business, like a mall or club or content creation. But the group tools provide no support for that, nor do Lindens -- the Lindens seem to be busy trying to drive traffic to their own builds and projects, and outside projects like the Global Kids, rather than let teens really get traffic at their own created lots. Figures.

Like Democracy Island, this stuff all seems to be incestuously *about itself* with the same people who are *about themselves* using SL as a 3-D resume hanger. I don't see how it goes beyond itself to point to the larger world of SL let alone the RW.

Indeed, ultimately all do-good stuff in SL has to get people referenced back to RL. That's where the pedal hits the metal, after all. These Democrats didn't defeat Bush with their fascination with websites and Blackberries messaging text to each other about Howard Dean.

Kiari Lefay

Quote from Prok: imagine a RL situation where you couldn't even find out about the job because it was only secretly notified. Or imagine that sure, the ad is open, and you can apply to get the job but the job always goes to the same people...

Umm.. I hate to be the one to inform someone this, especially someone already entrenched in the job market who really should know this.... The real world IS like this. A -vast- majority of jobs aren't advertised. They're hired out to social contacts, to people who have sought out the job, or to people who applied because they heard about it from social contacts.

You can argue that SL should be different because it's a game. But your comparision here is off because what you want your readers to 'imagine' is actually the RL job market, no imagining necessary.

Prokofy Neva

Um duh um hon Kiara, I um live in the real world and get real jobs and have been getting them for gosh, I hate to think, but surely lots longer than you have been on this planet.

Some jobs come to you due to friends and relatives. Some jobs come to you through connections. Some jobs depend on you reading What Colour is Your Parachute and pushing your resume on people and networking. Some jobs are -- yes -- openly and normally advertised in the press or on sites like monster.com or Craig's List. I've gotten jobs from The New York Times, Craig's List, and monster. I've gotten jobs from friends and relatives. I've gotten jobs from connections or flashing my resume at seminars.

The point here hon der duh um is that there is variety, choice, the ability to access fairness, accountability, and transparency.

There is NOT that in the virtual toy world of Second Life and its third-party sites run by its beta buddies.

The problem with Second Life isn't that it's a narrow niche, or an exotic niche for specialists. It's not, really. I mean, Jesus H. Christ, how smart do you have to be to work a PSP and make a t-shirt???

The problem is that it's not just friends, it's not just relatives, it's friends-who-turned-government-officials. It's people who BECAME the government whose alts you can't understand are government officials or not.

You're just not getting it, like most people who don't get it. It's because either you haven't experienced the world enough or just are part of a new Internet content-creating culture, which in its worst forms is creator fascism, that views it the norm to have friends-turned-government-officials who are available for graft, payola, and corruption.

This sort of thing in the real world leads to the downfall of said governments.

Most authorities in most countries actually don't care if you give your relative or friend a job. What they do care is if you don't explain or account for that. If you hide it. If it becomes known as a scandal. If you actually order the murders of people who happen to find out that the secretary who can dispense the news of the early bidding process is your mistress.

That's all. And if you're not getting this, I don't know to help you get it other than to urge you to stay tuned, and see if this government keeps on working like this and stays afloat...or not.

Keep in mind that the Soviet empire lasted like that 75 years. But hey, that was a shorter run than either the Roman or Ottoman Empires.

Kiari Lefay

You surely are older than me, tee hee, with more years in the work force. With such experience behind you, tee hee, I commend you for you surprisingly optimistic view of the real world market place.

Because in the real world, anywhere above lower management, there is a distinct lack of transparency, fairness and accountability. Oh, there's the appearance of it, after all, it's not hard to come up with reasons to explain why you didn't hire anyone but your golfing buddy. Or give a few million dollars to a company that never did what they were 'contracted' for, or to award million dollar contracts without looking at other bids.

Maybe I've just seen more corporate bullshit, friend hiring, government 'help' and lies than you. Tee hee.

Prokofy Neva

Har har Kiara. I don't know what country or state you live in. But in part you're talking in a kind of mind-meme about things you haven't really experienced, I can tell.

I'm going to make a safe bet that you yourself personally have never experienced those things that you may read about in the papers, or hear about, or see in a website or something.

They're not always like they seem, and if you tear about a golf-buddy situation or a million-dollar useless construction contract as corrupt, in fact if you keep digging all human activity will be found pointless, if not corrupt, if not absurd.

That doesn't at all take away har har from my point that there are things called monster.com or the NYT or Craig's List that are open communications systems whereby you can get a job, or at least hear about a job.

The developers' list in SL isn't that, and will never be that.

What matters is that the values of transparency and fairness exist and people go on fighting for them.

I'm going to take another wild-assed guess and assume that you personally aren't starving or oppressed due to any golf buddies or millionaires having somehow stepped on you and prevented you from making enough of a living to be able to plug into a video game online for many hours of the week. If you are, my bad.


Kiari Lefay

The million dollars for contract jobs that never happened/no bidding? Yeah, that's from the news. If you've ever seen the Canadian news, the sponsorship scandal is pretty popular up here.

The rest, nope, that's stuff I've witnessed. In Japan, in Canada, and in America.

And no, I'm not oppressed by any of it. Mainly because I've never been on the side of the deal where I was the one getting the shaft.

If you want to compare RL and SL job markets, The 'help wanted' pages on the forums and on the game are along the lines of Monster and Craiglist. You can use them to make a decent amount in SL and to boost your resume.

Prokofy Neva

You've seen it in the news, and formed a media-shaped opinion. You've "witnessed" it, yet it did not oppress you. Let me assure you, that your notions of things are skewed.

The 'help wanted' pages on the forums and on the game are along the lines of Monster and Craiglist. You can use them to make a decent amount in SL and to boost your resume.

Uh, you have *got* to be kidding. And I don't mean looking for actual equivalents to something like a job in television or Russian translation as I might get from Craig's List or monster. I'm not even talking about *moral* equivalents as to interest or complexity or skill. You have GOT to be kidding!

Please, bring forward your examples.

Kiari Lefay

They're not skewed. I generally work on contract, I get to witness quite a few interesting dealings that don't effect me. If they don't effect me, how can they oppress me?

What exactly do you want an example of? All you've said is "You have got to be kidding", not really a great rebuttal. Do you want an example of finding SL work through the help postings?Because most of my animation commissions come from there, or from word of mouth from jobs I've gotten from there, including larger jobs.

Prokofy Neva

Kiara, if you have a skill like animations, scripting, building, sure, you are one of the *tiny* pecent of people in SL looking for work who could in theory find a job on the classifieds. I know, because I've hired people like you to commission work.

But the overwhelming number of jobs involve bouncing at clubs, sexscorts, mall managers, events planners at best -- just bodies to show up and click.

There isn't a significant job market of diverse types of labour and interesting labour the way there is on Craig's List, so to portray the LL forums as some kind of even rough equivalent of Craig's list is just plain absurd, and is a function of your tiny, sectarian, skewed view of the world coming through your presence in the tiny clique of content creators.

As for you and your RL views and experience, everything you've said so far indicates to me that you're in the grip of a mind-meme that tells you that there is a kind of vast conspiracy out there of "America" or "all those evil rich people and their golf buddies" or "capitalism" or "corrupt contracts" who greedily grab everything for themselves, are immune to punishment, and if not oppress others, help confirm their mind-memes.

I find with people in the grip of these mind-memes, which are more virulent and tenacious than the flu or herpes, that it's impossible to have normal or reasoned discourse. Their entire world lense or filter has been hopelessly tilted and tinted toward this deeply-held belief that "America" or "those greedy capitalists" or "Bush" or "these corrupt landlords" are responsible for all the world's evils.

The fact that most of the world's land, natural resources, and people are in fact in the hands of non-American, non-capitalist, non-landlord totalitarians of various types escapes them, and will always escape them.

GlobalKids Bixby

Thanks for raising important questions related to Global Kids projects in the teen grid. Now that the essay contest is over, and GK's work there continues, I do hope you take the time to read more about what we are actually doing (as opposed to guesses, since you can't visit the island), in:

- the first teen edition of the Metaverse Messenger
- The log of the award ceremony in the teen grid -- http://www.holymeatballs.org/2006/03/abridged_transcript_for_gk_in.html
- Or the winning essays themselves -- http://www.holymeatballs.org/digital_media_essay_contest/winning_essays

Barry

Prokofy Neva

GlobalKids,

I'm glad you're doing your thing. I'm glad you got a job using Second Life, and it pays your bills. First things first!

I know it's hard to hear criticism of something that seems important and your life's work. But non-profits in RL get 501(c)(3) tax-exempt status. That means what might have been their tax dollars which might have gone into the public coffers to fund, say, hospitals or roads, can be used at their discretion, within the law, to do whatever thing they think is charitable and good -- but the public gets to be privy to it and gets to comment about it.

Since they've departed from the general public weal concept that we can all agree on like a hospital or a road, to other stuff that maybe we are not going to agree on is useful, it's right and just that the public look at it, examine it, and see whether it's something worth donating to.

Kids say they don't want to have a contest involving writing an essay in Second Life. That's because they already have to do that in first life and it's their boring homework!

They're in a 3-D exciting and interactive world, and yet the contest is about writing a turgid and dull essay, an old, first-world, 2-D product instead of a new intriguing 3-d interactive product.

Furthermore, instead of having that essay be able almost to write itself on enthusiasm because the subject is something like "my invention in Second Life" or "my group and my club and mall in Second Life" or anything that might really grab them, it's different.

It's about what well-meaning do-gooder adults want it to mean. And what that is, is good-for-you broccoli stuff like "what can technology do to make a better world" or "what has this new technology done for us all" etc.

I have to say that this contestant winner rather well hit the nail on the head:

" couldn’t think of anything that my generation would be known for, so I popped in my earphones, played a relaxing song on my iPod and Googled the answer while I texted my friend’s cell phone asking if he wanted to go to the new Wi-Fi coffee house to get a raspberry mocha flavored soy latte. That’s when it hit me: my generation will be known for having an abundance of absurd latte flavors!"

The contestant was the grand prizer winner because they finished up with the moral lesson of the day:

"Everything in moderation is my policy. Our generation has the potential to make the biggest advancements in medicine, mathematics, space exploration, genetics, and many other fields. I think that it would be a shame to waste that opportunity by playing online games and instant messaging all the time."

What the Lab is busy doing is trying to figure out how they can take mirror-neurons and brain chemistry and whatnot and the pleasure principle and get people to play games, but somehow siphon in something useful and even financially-rewarding to make it all seem worthwhile.

Works for you! Will it work for everybody? The jury is out yet.

What's scary about these essays is the dawning recognition you have about how AIM and Google and Wikipedia have mushed their young minds. This dawning recognition about the Google and Wikipedia problem is something that I actually began to realize when thoughtful young teenagers themselves explained to me the problem with all this stuff and how it pushes things at you and doesn't let you think for yourself.

There's LOTS I could be commenting on here, but it involves straying off to a lot of first-life topics and that's not the purpose of this blog.

dofus kamas

problem with all this stuff and how it pushes things at you and doesn't let you think for

Creative Recreation

You got a really useful blog I have been here reading for about half an hour. I am a newbie and your post is valuable for me. these practices are unfair; but they say that most of their rules are only to apply to people who overdra.

Elliot

これを得ることは に、 卸売ハンドバッグ ビジネス ので成功しました。 これら は は本当に 日常 低価格 あなた ある 圧倒 市場 約。 どんな 必要がありますどのような機会に、を取得する 非常に慎重 選択 高級 バッグ。 5 金属ベース フィート 保護、基本 の トラベル バッグ。

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