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December 08, 2006


John Hurliman

Thank you for the writeup. The libsecondlife project has been running strong for six months now and we are approaching a stable release of the library (targeted around Christmas). If you are looking for custom work done contact me through Second Life (as Eddy Stryker).

Here's another tech demo made with libsecondlife, showing the world through a bot's eyes:

Prokofy Neva

Going to be copying buildings and houses now, John? I wonder what architects will say about their custom work being copied? Or what's your point? Oh, right, everything can be copied, duh. And benefit *you* above all.

Perhaps you'd like to take this opportunity to explain:

o why you pulled your apology from the website
o why you are still in libsecondlife when you claim on your website that all the members "stepped away" from the project and it is "under new management"
o why you paid a source to lie to journailsts.

I mean, just to hit on the three basic questions I can think of right at the moment.

John Hurliman

The apology was in no way a retraction, except to correct a few factual errors like people being wrongfully exiled from the project. I only had a hand in writing up the whole statement, but we determined it would be better to let the project leader make his own statement.

I never claimed that everyone was stepping away from the project, what it literally said was that the leadership is stepping down and new leadership stepping up. It was a management reorganization, the same coders are still coding. No one has any desire to stop the developers from doing the work they are doing.

No one was paid any amount of bribery, and all of the interviews that I have been involved in (and I think all of the libsecondlife members) have been completely factual.


The LibSL project isn't running strong, it's running scared.

That's why they keep saying things like "running strong" here and "here to stay" on their website.

And they should be running scared. They've been given a pass to do as they like in SL, regardless of the TOS that applies to the rest of us, and that sort of thing really doesn't go down well.



Oh now, this is good. This person lies like a rug. A slippery one.

1. That apology post you wrote specifically stated that Baba Yamamoto had been evicted from LibSL.

2. We have seen the chat lot where Nimrod was offered the bribe.


David  (D)

A chat log produced by whom? By nimord? The very same person who had a active hand in its release for sale? Who also was feeding information to prok how very very convenient.

How much did you pay to have nimrod manufacture a log prok? What its not an accusation, just a question, isn't it?


Handy, David (D), who is now getting around the closing of his other pseudonym because for some reason, he can't bear for us to know who he is in SL.

And what about the original apology notice written by John Hurliman, which said that Baba had been evicted?


Eric Rice

Heh, you know how much it cracks me up when "Chat Log" is somehow the same as "Signed Sworn Notarized Document in a Court of Law Under God"?

Serious Business.

Prokofy Neva

Yes, what *about* that original apology? And was there any Linden hand involved in telling the boys not to worry, they didn't have to apologize so hard? Why did Baba emerge on top? Who protects Baba at LL?

I don't pay sources for information nor do I tamper with any transcripts -- that's simply an unacceptable practice. I try to check them.

Nimrod is what I would call a D-source: "D-Source is not very reliable but can provide good information".

He was correct with his information on a number of occasion. His character is far from sterling, but his information was usually good -- i.e. it panned out. But of course, by accepting a payment to lie to journalists, he's made himself, um, peachable.

Prokofy Neva

None of the parties in the infamous libsecondlife transcripts have ever used that argument, Spin. They never denied those logs. In fact, John's apology came after -- and was based on -- the appearance of the chat logs.

Chat logs are the Sacred Holy Writ of Second Life, Spin, never forget it.


Apologies for the anonymous posting, but, given the current ban-happy hysteria permeating all things connected with copybot, I'd sooner protect my identity.

However, something in this article made my spidey senses tingle -- that mention of a "demo" in early December?

Can you think of any high-profile early-december events? events that must've had several weeks advance planning? I can.

Now, go and listen to episode 45 of secondcast, around the 38 minute mark, where Johnny Ming is describing his new job for the electric sheep, and specifically the NBC tree lighting event. He describes how they had to have 19 identical avatars log in for the tree lighting ceremony, because...

"That's one of the key problems with the current technology. There's no way to 'shard' an avatar. Well, actually, I think there is.... but it's not... urm... it's not stable."

Interesting implication there -- Somebody, somewhere, is experimenting with having a single avatar, appearing in many sims at the same time?

I wonder what kind of technology THAT might rely on?

Might've just been Johnny getting hold of the wrong end of the stick (god knows he often does in those secondcasts), but still -- food for thought.

Prokofy Neva

Good work, anonymous. I hadn't heard of that podcast, but yes, I noticed that Johnny Ming had gotten Sheep-dipped and that yes, there was a demo that didn't demo, a dog that didn't bark...unless it did.

So. Let's get this straight then.

Who's on first?

Did libsecondlife make a Mannequin-Maker for the NBC (or other similar type of events) tree-lighting - but it never lit? ESC in fact had trouble even putting out 19 of *anything*, let alone bots -- there own live avatar people were scattered thin on the ground, one of my criticisms.

Or did Eddy Stryker make the mannequin for NBC or something related to NBC outside of ESC? Through ESC?

Did the Mannequin-Maker or Bot-Builder get hijacked and tweaked into something else?

I'd like to hear the pedigree of that transformation. Because I don't believe Sable Sunset is right about her claim that all that's different between the Mannequin thing and the CopyBot is a consent-card (I have it myself). That's just the difference of a note-card script, and I can't believe that's what it is all about.

By him saying "it's not erm stable" he may have shut himself up in time before blurting out something that would disrupt his NDA. But wait...why couldn't he then have merely edited out those remarks before his podcast? He always does anyway. Hell of a thing to leave in a podcast, no?
(Quick, get a copy!)

See, if anybody probes on this or criticizes on this we'll look like we're in the way of Science and Progress. Logging on 19 avatars at once of course has its pluses and minuses. One of the things is that you can't tell who is real. And how can one person run them (I suppose that's not hard). I hate WoW for that reason -- I keep trying to strike up conversations with people who turn out to be NPCs. There's nothing on them to indicate (to me anyway) "Hey,I'm not real like the avatars in SL).

Seeing a slew of events where the handlers bought avatar names and dressed up avatars and warmed up their butts on pixelated seats before show-time, I'm starting to think we'll probably never know if some of the people we see are really those people -- it's like lip-syncing. Av-syncing. Uck.

Prokofy Neva

I guess I don't have to connect up the dots of how THAT looks, btw, a technology commissioned and deployed to help NBC have a big splash in SL with 19 Christmas tree lightings, that ended up striking fear and panic into the hearts of hundreds of content creators and causing them loss of business.

nimrod yaffle

"No one was paid any amount of bribery, and all of the interviews that I have been involved in (and I think all of the libsecondlife members) have been completely factual."

Hahaha! What a load of shit!

John Hurliman

nimrod: So you are saying you accepted a bribe to truthfully reproduce a chat log to someone? Or you took the bribe to lie about taking the bribe? Or you lied about your intent to lie so you could take a bribe?

Prokofy you should promote him to a Class-A source of material, nimrod should be a staple of this blog!

Prokofy Neva

Sounds like word-salad to me, John, most of the time, the truest explanation is the simplest. I think it would be pretty convoluted to accept a bribe to fake a transcript that others could probably easily dismiss. I'm betting this transcript is true, and you were sufficiently cynical and sufficiently worried that you were willing to bribe your way out of a jam.

Everything about that transcript -- not just the bribe -- is sucky. It's the cynicism, manipulativeness, hatred, and lack of remorse. It's the lack of any inner moral compass whatsoever. That's not what I want digging in the innards of Second Life. But I guess Cory Linden is happy with it; I can only ask him to intellectually and morally justify it, in addition to technically justifying it, if that's what he is doing.

But I had been given to understand that the Lindens were as repulsed by this transcript as any of us.

There remains the curious matter of the apology and retraction, too.

Oh, and whether 19 mannequins were being ready to be debuted for NBC. Comments?

Jesse Malthus

Last time I checked to look at the "appology", it was shown as "created by Baba Yamamoto". I think it was a clever ruse/joke by Baba. otakup0pe is the new project head, if I recall correctly.

Prokofy Neva

I often observed otakupOpe at v-5 gatherings and grief-ins, and he's one of the people who harassed me.

Yeah, it was a cynical, manipulative, asshole ruse, right, we got that.


I never created the post..

Our back end software makes it easy for an accidental slip by an administrator to change the name on a posting.

Truth is I was asleep at the time the post was made.

Prokofy Neva

Hahahah that's rich, Baba! Totally. You guys are a laff riot.

nimrod yaffle

John I'm not going to argue with you. You handleded yourself well throuh this, and you know what the truth is.

nimrod yaffle



John, how stupid do you think people are?

Or maybe the question is, how desperate are you?

You wrote that apology post, saying that Baba was evicted, then the post disappeared.

Now you are trying to act like you never wrote that or said that at all.

That is lying.


Prokofy Neva

It's like the time Jesse Malthus assured me that he had expelled a passle of v-5 griefers from libsecondlife after I handed them proof of their griefing.

And then reported back later when I saw them back in that whoops, he lost his eviction powers. That must have been Baba pulling them.

Who protects Baba?

Prokofy Neva

I got this anonymous mailing, with a picture that didn't load on an anonymizing site.

So if anyone would like to study this and make sense of it, they may:

"Pretty interesting. Go try to find any one of these anywhere in-world and you'll see
the same results.

The scripts and the object itself were made by one user, AFTER the notecard selling it was
made by ANOTHER user, who just happens to have sold copybot, neat eh?

Sell the problem, the solution, and then update the problem to work around the solution."

I'm not quite getting what is meant by "who just happens to have sold copybot".

Perhaps Nimrod can explicate.

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