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« Snarky Shirky, or Why the Geeks Got to Go | Main | Fix the World For Me and My RL Clients KTx Bye »

December 14, 2006

Comments

Kyrah Abattoir

did you noticed the libsl group is open enrollment? me, you and your mother can join it if you want. You should come really, before spreading lies on your scribbler blog.

When i am not versed on a subject i keep myself from posting about it, a healty beahavior that you should follow you too if you want to become a good writer.

Baba

Actually the fact that it's open enrollment has been one of Prokofy's many complaints.

Tyken Hightower

While all of the happenings of CopyBot mostly don't concern me.. I'm still mystified as to your stance on scripters thinking themselves and their products 'above' other content creators. As you said, some tekkies, even your own tenants, were of the non-FUD-assuming persuasion, people who even protested themselves. Along another line, you say of scripts, "Yeah, scripts can't be copied. CopyBotters made sure THAT can't happen." In reality, Linden Lab made sure that can't happen. The only parts of the world itself that aren't technologically vulnerable to being stolen are scripts. If you have evidence to the contrary, evidence that indeed scripts can be stolen without some permissions bug and without packet sniffing someone local to their point of connection, I'd certainly be interested and highly concerned (and I mean this in a way not at all intended to sound 'above' other content makers - 'scripterati' - nice). Sure, LL could have encrypted the protocol, made textures and the like much more difficult to steal. They could have chosen a non-OpenGL route, even. Why didn't they? This is not to say that CopyBot wasn't an absurd project. While CopyBot and its purposes are back-asswards and wrong, LL has enabled this from the start as well. I don't believe their mission has ever included TRYING to protect content aside from stopping server-side bugs.

I agree with the idea that things probably won't devalue anytime soon. While there is such a thing as competition, there's so much of it, and so little transparency as to the comparison of prices, that there really won't be much slashing in order to compete. Right now, aside from buying online through SLE or such, you'd really have to go out of your way and TP all over to find *the best price out there*. As long as something isn't ridiculously overpriced, people will buy it. Besides, one designer can mark down their prices all they want; it doesn't mean people won't buy other brands just for the different styles or their own personal tastes.

Open enrollment really is a retarded plan, Baba. If I make any group that isn't just for fun and has some dedicated purpose, I certainly wouldn't let whatever unknown people join as they wish. In a place like this, at that point you're asking for people to start wiping their asses on your group's reputation. That is not to say that I agree with Prok's instant interpretation of all group members' actions as being representative of the whole, but really.. you've never intended to prevent such 'bad eggs' from sprouting up, have you? Sure, you could make libSL itself an open project, but that doesn't mean it's a shiny idea to let just anyone represent your primary members' intentions, especially on the grid. Comments?

Desmond Shang

There is a notable side-lesson in the Copybot issue; one that the Ministry of Truth couldn't teach any better than with this example.

Even on the grid, in this supposedly hallowed Information Age, many people on the grid I've talked to don't even know about Copybot. At all.

Sure, *we* all knew about Copybot. But there are the multitudes that see forums, polls, or whatnot, - and just keep moving along.

Their world, their grid, their agenda.

The population is no longer forced to tramp around the color-named sims and soak up the 'main topic of the day' (along with brand names!), simply because there are now other places to go.

Sic transit gloria, for all of us. Likely a good thing.

Prokofy Neva

I don't care if it is open enrollment. Ravenglass Rentals is open enrollment, too. When I get a griefer, I expel them. I keep expelling them. I even close the group temporarily if they keep griefing by joining a group where they have been expelled *for cause*.;

I *do* think that a group involved in *reverse engineering the client* for God's sake might consider having a closed, invitation-only membership, eh? Given everything. Gosh, I know "information wants to be free," but it might be a show of consideration of the rest of us to stop the flow of v-5s and other assholes, including their own long-term, cycnical members like Baba Yamamotoa, and to create a group with a more distinct face and mission that no one can say, oh, it's open, and that's why that asstard joined. I view that as completely facile and indefensible to make that sort of argument, and to hide behind it.

Tyken, Linden Lab and scripters are all of one class of tekkies who sure as hell make damn sure that their scripts can't be copied. They are hysterically anal-retentive and have the motivation to develop systems in this regard. Of course, they can be copied if they are essentially sheets of paper you cut and paste too. I'm well aware of the mechanics of how scripts work as distinct of how textures render. Still, I point out this deep hypocrisy -- they hide behind mechanics, and they have their own heavy motivation to protect *their own* livlihood (here's the livlihood Hiro is even telling everyone to go into now that textures are really not safe).

I dunno, when Aimee Weber and Cristiano Midnight were screaming about the failure to have protections on flaws and exploits and the ability to copy textures, this was accepted as an honourable, legitimate, needed exercise. Suddenly, when ordinary people who aren't famous and aren't FIC ask for the same protections, they are dismissed as suffering from FUD.

Packet-sniffing has been tolerated by the Lindens often for long periods -- remember the questions I asked about Rathe Underthorne and the hysterical reaction?

And yes, there is a question continually to ask: why didn't they go the route of a different path to protect things more? This should be challenged technically and politically.

I am so glad you challenged the "open-group" stuff, Tyken. We've had to hear the point of view of those with malice and hatred of others and their interests, like Kyrah, over and over and over again. It's in their interests to shirk responsibility for the tekkie class as a whole, as they benefit from the largesse given to it.

I'm glad you are honest enough to call them on this. And call you must: because while they can even be making an open-source product, I don't see why they have to have an open group to do it -- especialyl when over and over and over again, dozens and dozens of alts come from v-5 and w-hat to grief people viciously.

I don't know why this is rocket science. People with the membership "libsecondlife" have repeatedly crashed the grid, making self-replicating objects and stuff. The Lindens not only know this, they finally banned those people.

It's as if they and many people who are carrying water for libsecondlife are completely blind to the social and political ramifications of their actions.

They joined libsecondlife because they found it hospitable. Huns Valen in particular has been a willing host and an apologist over and over again, and a victory dancer after many of their antics.

Ravenglass Rentals is an open group too, and some of these same assholes deliberately invaded it and used the exploits to harm other people. I expelled them, over and over again, appealed to the leaders over and over again (that's why I finally got Jesse Malthus to start expelling some of them, until Baba evidently took away his expulsion powers -- funny how Jesse never admits that now publicly).

I kept naming, shaming, abuse-reporting, telling Lindens. I even closed the group for a time. Libsecondlife did nothing like that.

Desmond, your notion that the masses of blingtards in their blissful ignorance and atomized state of SL and its lack of civil society is true; but it is a irresponsible thing to say, nonetheless. It implies that just because every blingtard doesn't know about any of this, it's fine to not care, or imagine that all of us and are concerns are irrelevant.

You know full well that every society has its intelligentsia, its elite, and its educated and aware classes who think in conceptual terms about the world itself, some of whom have the power to affect conditions in the entire world.

So for Lindens, who rule this world; technical elite; FIC and SIC and all the powers celebrating and residing in libsecondlife, it is all completely irresponsible and malicious to allow a thing like this to happen and not take action.

Just because you can't do EVERYTHING and "stop CopyBot," doesn't mean that you can't clean up the act of this group, print the apology that really must go up; kick out the people who really are demonstrable malevolent assholes; and move to invitation-only.

Pyutaros Achterbahn

Wow. I think I'm starting to get this "rant" I've been reading across your many posts. While there are many issues I may disagree upon, I don't think they are worth squabbling over, as the main portion of your message is very articulate and reasonable. I believe this post is the first time it has been framed so well, and that may be attributed to the fact that there were "fewer" accusatory statements and more content actually describing your position.
Since you have done such a good job in framing your point of view, I will not attempt to rehash it. I believe your words can only do that job well. I am however drawn to a metaphor which perhaps pushes in the direction of where I believe you are arguing from.
I would like to draw parallels between this "virtual" world and our real world. I would liken scripters to genetecists in our world and data to DNA. I suppose in this metaphor, our REAL world has been rather "closed sourced" up to this point. But now genetecists have begun to reverse engineer the client that was designed by nature. Science would like to convince us that these little on / off switches in our DNA are the total sum of who and what we are. They are just bits of data, and are not unique and can be easily copied. The humanitarian argument is one that just because DNA can be copied and manipulated, doesn't necessarilly mean that it recklessly should be. Perhaps scripts could be compared to a soul, or consiousness, maybe brain function. At this point not easy to copy or reproduce.
I apologize, this metaphor shall remain incomplete and disorganized as it has just come to my, and I haven't the time to completely flesh it out. I think you may be right though, that many "tekkies" fail to see the human aspect of data, as it is second nature for us to manipulate it. In fact, it constantly amazes me how much humanity there IS in second life. Literally, my mind is blown over how passionate everyone I meet within is about this seemingly virtual world and it's not so real "objects" as though there were REAL life within second life. As though this walled garden actually has a soul to it. Amazing.
Well, I think your writing has managed already to change my mind and make me think a little deeper about the overall issue. Though I still hold issue to many sidepoints you make, I don't find them relevant to the argument you seem to be making here. Of course, I could really just be grasping at straws here, wanting to try to understand just why you are so very passionate about these issues. Well, thanks for the good read. Still glad it's not on the Linden Blogs.

Hiro Pendragon

Interesting thinking, Prok. I wonder what this post would be if you removed all of your assuming-all-developers-are-evil attitude?

I find it ironic that you first tell me that I've ignored "commerce circles", which is essentially brand loyalty, and then later when I mention brand loyalty, you waver.

Also, regarding making money from copybot, as I understand the person(s) who sold copybot earned a few thousand linden per sale. You know very well that this is peanuts compared to what many content creators make. I, for one, have the vivid memory of the infamous payoff-chatlog in my mind, and if other people remember, that's one hell of a hit to reputation, ain't it?

Prokofy Neva

In our little context, they *are* evil. Oh, I've seen quite a few that aren't. I don't think Lindens on the whole are evil, though they have some decidedly evil ideals. But I see currently that the bunch at the fetid inner core are objectively destructive and selfish.

Commerce circles and "brand loyalty" aren't the same thing. If you think they are, you have a shallow understanding of human relations.

Just one person selling it -- there were many -- made $70,000 Lindens. That's only $245 US, but so what? The issue isn't HOW MUCH they made, but THAT they were cynical enough to sell it and take advantage of it and terrorize people more, by disseminating it.

The pay-off chatlog involves John Hurliman arranging to pay $100 US to Nimrod Yaffle, John being the real name of Eddy Stryker and Nimrod -- who is he? Who knows? So no need to be coy; you can reference it. And that hit to the reputation has done absolutely no good -- Eddy remains firmly in place in libsecondlife, even cockily issuing me invitations to join this open group with the "interest group" title. Baba, also the cynic, is also in place.

I'm recalling how a scripter I know well made something that happened to copy a feature of something in SL. And instead of terrorizing people with it; selling it; testing it on unsuspecting people and sewing terror; behaving like a general dick, he tried it out on his own empty land and then talked to the Lindens about it and then heeded their advice not to use it. Some people are simply decent and moral.

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