OPEN SOURCE=CLOSED SOCIETY, PART 2

The new force set to rule over us -- libsecondlifer Kamilion Schnook in gangsta-av mode lords it over the puny Philip Linden.

This has got to be the most astounding conversation I've ever had with Philip Linden. If you care about how freedom in the Metaverse will turn out, it will make your hair stand on end, too. Oh, and check out this gangsta thug Kamilion Schnook. He's the sort of character we'll all be having as our "leader" in the new "resident-run" Second Life. I hope more than anything, those who aren't coders -- and even those who are, who might have some decency and conscience -- can see what kind of raging fucktards we are now going to be having monkeying with the very nature of our world. The belligerent, arrogant and taunting spirit they represent is ugly to behold--PN.

Kamilion Schnook: I spent all last night helping out on the wiki
Kamilion Schnook: (least, I *HOPE* I was helping, LOL)
Zi Ree: *giggles*
Tao Takashi: heh :)
Philip Linden: I haven't checked out the wiki yet.
Kamilion Schnook: Added the viewer's commandline options
Philip Linden: Will soon.
You: Well that was unjust booting me from the town hall, what was that all about????
Zi Ree: pfff
Kamilion Schnook snickers
Philip Linden: Hi Prok. I wasn't here yet I don't think.
You: Philip, you've open-sourced the client
Nanao Mahfouz: Oh yes, are we getting a global "Mute Prokofy Neva" function in tomorrow's update?
You: can you open-source the forums and the town halls and stop permabanning people????
Zaphod Kotobide: it's called heckling, prokofy
Kamilion Schnook: Danger, will robinson!
You: Yes the record shows I was being heckled, thanks.

Will Webb: uh oh, storm ahead :-)
Tao Takashi: nah
You: BTW the way there's a W-hat here named "Prokofy Novi" who is spoofing me that's not me
Nanao Mahfouz giggles and bats his eyes
Philip Linden: Prok if we didn't kick some ppl out of town hall they wouldn't work at all, don't you think?
Kamilion Schnook: Phillip: oh -- and another thanks for a feature! The mute list works awesomely now!
You: Philip you have GOT to be kidding
Philip Linden: vw K
Will Webb: touche :-)
Zi Ree: lol Kam!
You: you should see what other people say, it's not right
You: in room chat, people were cross talking
You: what of it?
You: it's not disruptive, people merely chat
Philip Linden: Yeah but I mean if someone just sits and shouts or something, we can't hear.
You: it's not like coming i n a giant dragon avatar and lagging theserver
Nanao Mahfouz: Prokofy Novi was actually quite decent, I'd say. Presented quite a compelling argument. :)
You: I didn't sit and shout anything Philip
Philip Linden: I just mean that there is some level of control.
Nobody Fugazi: O.o
Philip Linden: needed.
Shoq Venkman: Phillip. Why can't you let out a less than perfect "HTML dialog" window, at least. That will let a ton of external pages in, while you resolve the more elegant prim issues.
Philip Linden: I wasn't here.
You: well you are going WAY overboard
You: read the room chat I am posting it when typepad.com gets back up
Philip Linden: Shoq we will do that first and as soon as we can.
Kamilion Schnook: I admit I was a little uncouth.
Shoq Venkman: I dont' care about HTML on a prim.I care about HTML in world
Philip Linden: Just hard stuff. Geck hasnt been used that way before.
Zaphod Kotobide: seems like a prim's a nice way to get html in world
Kamilion Schnook: Phillip: have you seen how opencroquet handles prim browsers?
Shoq Venkman: Yes, I supppse nearly a year of uBrowser had our expectations up
Zi Ree: html.. to internal reference. sound pretty straightforward.. oppose to.. external reference
Philip Linden: No K. How?
Kamilion Schnook: Lemme see if I can dig up a screenshot, just a tick
Philip Linden: We've gotten a lot from ubrowser work. Just not all bugs out yet.
Philip Linden: And also not top priority, and only couple people who have worked on that code.
You: Philip can the registration API be extended to the point where it completely bypassess the WA and HI and lands on people's customized WAs?
Kamilion Schnook:
http://www.opencroquet.org/about_croquet/screenshots/images/slideshow9.jpg
Philip Linden: Actually.... that might be something you could now help with.
Will Webb: OI and HI
Will Webb: not WA
Kamilion Schnook:
http://www.opencroquet.org/about_croquet/screenshots/images/slideshow5.jpg
<--- also supports X-windows on a prim
Philip Linden: Yeah but what browser code are they using?
You: Will it lands people in WA's and infohubs too
Philip Linden: Yes prok it can.
Kamilion Schnook: All in smalltalk-80
Will Webb: true, but that's after initial orientation
Shoq Venkman: Phillip, why can't and SRURL point right to a landing spot? Why must it bring up the map first? Really impedes the continuity from a browser into world.
You: where people are bombarded with flying phalluses so some people wnt to skip that
Philip Linden: I think it is being used like that for the 'L-Word' thing.
Robin Linden: Prok, it can land people wherever you want them to land.
Kamilion Schnook: OpenCroquet is self hosted
Philip Linden: You login directly to SL, no OI/WA.
Will Webb: you're quite free to go where you want after HI
Philip Linden: Agree Prok.
Zaphod Kotobide: I think he means why not bypass the map entirely
Kamilion Schnook: All in smalltalk-80 with the Squeek virtual machine
Will Webb: or even during OI, though i dont recommend skippin OI
You: that's great progress, but so far only available to privileged coders who can code these things, can it be ever a DIY feature? where these things with such benefits become like tripod.com for users?
Zaphod Kotobide: which I agree would be more fluid
Philip Linden: It seems very likely that we need to have multiple starting locations which are user-created.
Zi Ree: coders.. no privileged.. just skilled.
Jarod Godel: Have things started yet?
Will Webb: heya morph
Kamilion Schnook: Jarod: Already over :(
You: skilled=priveilged
Philip Linden: OI+HI, the whole thing. With some sort of ability for people to choose where they want to start in signup.
Morph Wollongong: hi
Zi Ree: no ..can always learn skill..
Jarod Godel: Oops.
Alenzia Epsilon: Jarod - they already kinda finished up, I'm afraid.
Jarod Godel: Thanks
Alenzia Epsilon: This is just chitchat.
Christopher Wachmann: i agree... i think perhaps if you register thru a 3rd party site, when you first join you should have the option to go to OI or straight to that 3rd party location. and/or have the option to go to 3rd party location after OI
Philip Linden: Good idea prok.
You: yes everybody should be forced to learn comptuer programming so they can partake of the new society, yes
You: sounds good
Alenzia Epsilon: No problem. There is a posting to the linden blog woth the transcript.
Kamilion Schnook: Yeah, LSL is awesome to learn to code!
Philip Linden: Perhaps someone could make a web front end on the reg api and do that without needing our help prok?
Kamilion Schnook: I've used it to move on to C#, personally!
Zi Ree: *shrugs* learn code.. or leave it.. :) can contribute.. in other way.. than code.. always
Jarod Godel: Everyone should have their legs broken. If I have to life in a wheelchair, so should everyone!
You: yes and will they do it without your help, Philip? that's the problem
Nobody Fugazi nods at Zi
Kamilion Schnook: But you don't have to be a coder to contribute!
Jarod Godel: Viva l'Cripple. Civa l'Cripple.
You: people don't naturally tend to think, "how can I make it easier for ordinary users" they tend to make it something proprietary
Kamilion Schnook: I've been working on documentation, for instance
You: so that their company gets the advantage
Christopher Wachmann: i disagree prok
You: that's why I had hoped LL would remain in charge of this world because it's just more fair
You: than a lot of Balkanized franchulates
Kamilion Schnook: SL's still in charge of the world.
You: Mr. lee's Hong kong and the weak USG
You: like Snowcrash
Jarod Godel: The bipedarchy is trying to keep me down
You: is that hwat yyou wish?
Zi Ree: can work.. on wiki.. on translation.. on ..help new people.. on what have you
Kamilion Schnook: It's just the community is now in charge of the VIEWER
Christopher Wachmann: thats the difference wtih open source ideals... if you are an OSS programmer the idea of keeping stuff under wraps is someone foreign
Will Webb: Wow that keynote is going on and on :-)
Alenzia Epsilon: Hermia? May I have a bear? :)
You: Christophher, then why to this day do we not know the name of the author of Copybot?
Kamilion Schnook: Um, we do.
Hermia Linden: Coming up, Alenzia
Zi Ree: probably.. multiple authors
Kamilion Schnook: John Hurliman.
You: why wasn't copybot opensourced and its twin sisters MultipleInstanceBot?
Alenzia Epsilon: Thanks!
Nobody Fugazi: All egyptian hieroglyphs fall in the public domain. Only a few people can read them. Should I cry because I cannot? Or should I instead learn to read them if it bothers me so?
Philip Linden: Sorry I was away there for a moment.
Kamilion Schnook: He commited most of the source, from the SVN logs.
You: He denies authoriship
Will Webb: Yeah, Philip, any chance whatsoever of a bear now ? :-)
You: and they also say in libsl they can use anything for private commercial means, and not opensource it
Will Webb: (nag nag) :-)
You: what kind of GNU is that?
Alenzia Epsilon: IM'd you for easy bear-ness. :)
Wagahai Oddfellow: copybot is/was opensource.. although after the release it was removed from the main code tree
Zi Ree: copybot.. product of.. community.. no of.. one person
Kamilion Schnook: the same GNU everyone else uses.
Zi Ree: but.. go and.. get svn log :)
You: communities are made of people, and they can all sign it
Christopher Wachmann: what has copybot to do with OSS apis? different point. remember that OSS or not people are individual and act as they themselves see fit
Shoq Venkman: Phillip..do you ever sign on with a non-linden name, and just schmooze with newbies just off the boat, to really get a sense of where they SL hype meets their reality road, so to speak?
Kamilion Schnook: You don't need to make everything free -- GPL supports paying for stuff.
You: just like this version of SL we're soaking in this minute has a whole list of names up top
Zi Ree: in svn.. all commit logged.. so can see.. who write.. which line.. of code
You: I realize that Kamilion, but that means it is secret
Philip Linden: I have hung out with newbies, but not as an alt.
Kamilion Schnook: So?
You: and then what was the whole pont of clamiing pen source???
Nobody Fugazi: yeesh.
Kamilion Schnook: So that others can help out.
You: yeesh is right Nobody
You: so everybody gets to help make a secret thing
Kamilion Schnook: It's our choice to re-contribute our changes.
You: sounds good
Kamilion Schnook: Yes, it does.
You: so i t has no accountability
You: to the public at lrage
Nobody Fugazi: Don't agree with me, I don't want that reputation.
You: like libsl hasn't
Christopher Wachmann: prok open source ideals and attributing code are different... just because one OSS guy does something bad doesnt mean OSS as a concept should be scrapped
Kamilion Schnook: Yes it does, patches have to be aprroved and applied upstream
You: It' snot getting a good rap in SL Christopher
You: from what we've seen so far
You: all the products are used to grief people
You: ?
Kamilion Schnook: The maintainer would be the one to complain to
Zi Ree: every line.. of code.. have tag.. of who upload it
Kamilion Schnook: Excuse me?
Zi Ree: in svn database
You: 1) god mode 2) megprim 3) copybot
Kamilion Schnook: I use libsl code every day
Zaphod Kotobide: What we've seen so far is 95% positive and 5% bitching
Nobody Fugazi contemplates learning hieroglyphs.
Kamilion Schnook: and I do not greiff
You: also invading group loopholes, etc
Zaphod Kotobide: so I'd say it'll have a pretty good rep real soon now :)
Jarod Godel: Christopher, yes it does. If generalization is a good enough reason to hate Muslims after 9/11, copybot is a good enough reason to hate all programmers.
Kamilion Schnook: I use megaprims in my island build. They work fine.
Zi Ree: 1) no work 2) so what? 3) no as bad.. as people ..make it
Philip Linden: there will be 10x more people now prok.
You: No, one would like to understand why some programmers are such extremists
Alenzia Epsilon: Well this comes down to the age old issue - who is at fault for how something is abused / used? The creator of the product, or the end user?
Philip Linden: people are basically good.
Christopher Wachmann: lol jarod
Kamilion Schnook: Copybot has good uses. And god mode fixed server side permissions bugs that we'd have to deal with NOW
Nobody Fugazi: Programmers are extremists? And their critics are not? Geez.
Zi Ree: wiki work.. same way
Will Webb: end user ofcourse :-)
You: And that's why these things have all been used to grief, right Philip?
Shoq Venkman: I just have a hunch you might find that the alt gets different -- and instructive -- feedback. The retention issue is there to be seen, I think.
Zi Ree: 100000 good people.. outweigh 10 ..bad ones
You: And that's why 25 of the people who joined libsl had to be permabanned?
Tateru Nino agrees. People are basically good, but some people are extremists.
You: because people are basically good?
Kamilion Schnook: I use copybot's offshoot to export my primsets to XML and modify them outside of SL.
You: ?
Jarod Godel: Programmers are extremists because we all have low latent inhibitions couple with Aspergers and, um, ADD
Jarod Godel: sure
Zi Ree: 25 people.. out of.. 1.000.000
Philip Linden: So prok you feel we should not have open sourced?
You: I feel you need to ask for mechanisms of accountability
Nobody Fugazi: well, 25 out of 250,000 give or take an alt
Alenzia Epsilon: If we took out everything that could possibly be misused, we'd be running around with chastity belts and wiffleball bats.
Christopher Wachmann: i agree with shoq, but OTOH if I'd seen Philip 30 sec after joining i wouldnt have known... i'd just have said 'cool hair'
You: these are social and political not technical issues
You: the feature voting tool is now obsolte
You: anyone can deliver code to you and bypass the community's feedback
You: the ordinary people
Kamilion Schnook: It was never utiziled properly anyway.
Zi Ree: not anyone
You: who live here too
You: the non-coders
Zi Ree: lindens.. need approve code
Drew Dwi: ordinary people?
You: What about the poeople with no talent, Philip?
Nobody Fugazi: the community can provide feedback through code as well.
Kamilion Schnook: Yes, you're right. We can. But you have to choose to use it.
Hermia Linden: I'd like to hear of some of the positive uses - I'm sure they haven't all been mentioned
Drew Dwi: didn't know there were different levels :)
Jarod Godel: Let them eat cake.
Zaphod Kotobide: good lord :/
Will Webb: good one jarod :-)
Zi Ree: what do.. people with no talent.. do in ..real world?
You: Are we to just pay the tier to hold it up while everyone sandboxes on it???
Kamilion Schnook: Yes.
You: See what I mean?
Nobody Fugazi: Zi, they pay people with talent.
You: We are to be fleeced.
Zi Ree: rrrright :)
Kamilion Schnook: I'm perfectly happy throwing my money away -- this is cheaper than college!
Shoq Venkman: Phillip.. i have been watching the open source communities all day in key places from Source forge no down. You got all the buzz you hoped for, and more.
Christopher Wachmann: prok- feature voting is for what features LL should put time/money into. if someone wants to take his feature and code it, assuming the code doesnt suck why SHOULDNT LL accept it? and if they dont he can make his own client
Jarod Godel: Yes.
Zi Ree: so pay.. Lindens to.. select good work.. from people.. with talent :D
Drew Dwi: yeah its all over the tech new sites :)
Kamilion Schnook: That's what Rob Linden's for :D
Jarod Godel: Prokofy, as long as you play Second Life, your lot is to be fleeced.
Hermia Linden: Contests, Zi?
You: the old system had the Lindens reply to residents proposals for features over time
Jarod Godel: Deal with it or get out.
You: the new system has a tiny elite feeding the Lindens new features which they'll rush to put out to keep ahead of competitors
You: so where is the democracy?
Zi Ree: good thing.. Hermia :)
Hermia Linden: yes I think so too
Kamilion Schnook: I got two proposals over 500 votes -- and neither was implimented. But I'm not angry.
Jarod Godel: As long as you use Google, you're information will be scanned and catalogued
Zaphod Kotobide: you're making alot of assumptions here prok
Tateru Nino blinks. SL is a democracy?
Zaphod Kotobide: aLOT
Will Webb: who said there was democracy ? :-)
Zi Ree: well.. tiny elite go.. in thousands.. of people
Jarod Godel: Don't like being a data vector, stop searching.
You: It should be Tateru
Christopher Wachmann: prok- remember that if many ppl want a feature some of them will be coders so they may help code it. and OSS cleint doesnt mean LL will stop all client developing
Kamilion Schnook: Tiny elite? Um, there's more open source programmers out here willing to work for FREE
Kamilion Schnook: Why should LL have to pay us to maintain something we love?
You: are we to make a whole metaverse with just elitist programmers in charage?
Kamilion Schnook: ... That's how it is NOW
Zi Ree: programmers.. no elitists
Zaphod Kotobide: 15000 downloads in less than 36 hours is a "Tiny elite"?
Tateru Nino: So, you're in favour of resident governance?
Kamilion Schnook points at Phillip and Cory
You: All you cared about in your ad copy about this Philip was telling the shoppers that they could keep on shopping.
Zi Ree: they.. just happen.. understand logic.. algorithms.. mathematics
Kunnis Basiat: Yeah, but that small elite group can do a lot of work. I'm good with debugging, I've already started looking over the client myself.
You: To stay out of the way.
Jarod Godel: Philip, is it true that Linden Lab is going to squat on Alcatraz and name Second Life as its own sovereign country, ala Sealand?
Kamilion Schnook: So they're not elitist programmers?
Shoq Venkman: lol zap
Christopher Wachmann: prok you are assuming that all coders are some kind of secret society formed to keep normal users down... i assure you this isn't the case
Philip Linden: 1,500 Zaphod. But I agree.
Zaphod Kotobide: err sorry ;)
Kamilion Schnook: yeah, we just join the illumnati for that
Will Webb: cool, just outfit every cell there with an SL capable PC and i'm in :-)
You: You don't ohave a good advertisement for your brethren in libsecondlife
Philip Linden: Thx Kunnis.
Kunnis Basiat: Heck, if that tiny elite is 10-15 really dedicated OSS programmers, then LL is going to get a lot of free work.
Shoq Venkman: lol Kam
You: Who pays for their time?
Zi Ree: Prokofy.. how much say.. you have over.. operating system.. on your PC?
Mirceab Delgado: lol
Bopete Yossarian: Prok, do you plan to get involved? perhaps learn to program?
Kamilion Schnook: Nobody need to pay for it, we're giving our TIME AWAY FREE
You: Do you plan to learn foreign languages and international law Bopete?
You: or did you think this is a world that only coders rule and make?
You: without input?
Jarod Godel: Oui.
Zaphod Kotobide: the cat is out of the bag at this point anyway
Bopete Yossarian: if I felt it was i mportant, yeah, i would
Zaphod Kotobide: there is no turning back
Kamilion Schnook: There's plenty of reisdents who are RW lawyers and linguists.
Drew Dwi: LL gonna filter the code just like they do the proposals?
You: Well I become conversant on the issues of open source too
Kamilion Schnook: Have you seen IBM's language lab?
You: and so far I'm a Bezroukovite
You: he got it right
You: coders making an open-source project have a tyrant
Zi Ree: Drew.. only LL sanctioned code.. go in ..official viewer
You: hiding behind the guise of an altruistic group
Jarod Godel: Prokofy, you have become a zealot of ignorance.
Nanao Mahfouz: The great thing about programming languages is that, generally, there is no speech barrier. :D
Zi Ree: and.. guidelines quite.. stiff
Drew Dwi: yeah, so its the same thing?
You: You're a good example of the intolerance to criticism and dissent, Jarod
Jarod Godel: By asking "who pays oss developers," you prove you don't get the point.
Eoin Widget: alright well I'm going to get going, take care folks
Drew Dwi: not like random person can drop code in
You: just becauase we don't want to play Basement Pirates LOL
Zaphod Kotobide: !quit
Kamilion Schnook: Can I have permission to post this chat as "The funniest thing on the internet EVAR" ?
Jarod Godel: I'm a good example of misanthropy.
Zaphod Kotobide: oops
Zaphod Kotobide: sorry
Shoq Venkman: Phillip.. on the Joomla IRC today, I saw this : "Screw this kludge. I'll go code a SL viewer. ttfn" I think that covers it.
Kunnis Basiat: I think what will happen is a few FOSS developered will take part of the debugging off of LL's plate, that alone is a huge value, and is lower risk, while LL employees go do the larger changes.
You: Have permission to chat it as the moments when freedom was lost, yes.
Nanao Mahfouz: I want to play Basement Pirates LOL
Gigs Taggart: heh
Will Webb: :-)
Jarod Godel: I'm also a good example of a minority who's forced to get by in a world where I have a marked, permanent disadvantage over the general populace
Christopher Wachmann: prok i think you are more intolerent... you group all coders together as elitist snobs and say they shouldn't be allowed to work on SL if they want to///
Jarod Godel: And let me tell you, in such instances, you either adapt or you die
You: No, Christopher
Nanao Mahfouz: Harlequin, you can level up for the sofa, I'll grind towards getting the 360.
You: I don't know all coders
You: I know the ones here
You: libsecondlife
You: and their track record is one to be of concern
Christopher Wachmann: which you group together as one
You: it's all very local
Zaphod Kotobide: you don't know the libsl people any more than you know john lennon
Zi Ree: coders offer.. work for LL.. for free.. make client.. better for.. *YOU* t use
Christopher Wachmann: despite the facct that only a few of them are 'bad'
Kamilion Schnook: Look, I may be elitist, and a snob, but I'm willing to put my time, effort, and even PAY LL for the privledge of making SL a better place.
You: Oh, I think I know 25 of them intimately
Wagahai Oddfellow: if there's such a big concern about who's doing what in libsl, then use SVN and grab the authors list for updates submitted
ThomasD Cardiff: From a noob to 2L but also from someone who's been a programmer for over 40 years, congrats to Linden for going open source
Zi Ree: bad code.. never get.. into official.. viewer
Gigs Taggart: heh libsl doesn't even have 25 active developers
You: as they griefed me and my tenants intensively for a year
ThomasD Cardiff: There are +'s and -'s to both and they will never please everyone
Kamilion Schnook: <--- part of the libsl crowd, and a proud contributor to the project!
You: it had 25 active griefing members Gigs
Shoq Venkman: "And I knew john lennon, senator. You're no john lennon"
You: Gene Replacement?
Christopher Wachmann: and fwiw i (as a non coding user) thank you for that kamillion, and i think LL for letting you do it because it will benefit ME
You: distinguished libsecdondlife member?
Zaphod Kotobide: heh
Wagahai Oddfellow: <- libsl lurker who hasn't contibuted anything but likes watching ;)
ThomasD Cardiff: My FOSS experiences have been more favorable overall than closed
You: whose mega prim is over the IBM tent?
Philip Linden: Thx Thomas
Hermia Linden: Perhaps libsl might like to say something about the good things they've been doing?
Gigs Taggart: That's 1 Prok, now you just need 24 more
ThomasD Cardiff: but there has to be a "benevolent dictator" for every open source project
You: That's right Hermia, balance those saddle bags!
Alenzia Epsilon: Off to cook up some dinner. :) Semi-here.
You: I think they made some instant drink, like Tang
ThomasD Cardiff: A horse created by committee looks like a camel
Kamilion Schnook: Like for instance, TestClient now supports exportin primsets to XML as well as importing it back!
Shoq Venkman: Mega Prim over the IBM Tent.... it almost sounds like a Sundance film project.
Drew Dwi: thought I read that they already fixed a bug... without the open source there'd be +1 bug, thats good enough reason for me :)
Jarod Godel: They got the SL client opensourced through their continued efforts?
You: *crickets*
Kamilion Schnook: We finally can edit objects outside of the grid.
You: can we hear the list of good things libsl did?
Kamilion Schnook: That's something people have been asking for since 2004!
You: and the answer is: they forced the Lidnens hand into open sourcing???
Jarod Godel: Exporting builds.
You: ?
Kamilion Schnook: Okay, fixed the god proxy hole
Zi Ree: libSL find.. exploits.. deliver them.. to lindens
Zaphod Kotobide: you can't be trusted to edit objects outside the grid.. they might be someone else's objects :D
Christopher Wachmann: prok- how bout security testing for a long time
Kamilion Schnook: repaired megaprim hole
Christopher Wachmann: finding exploits
Gigs Taggart: you know the list damn well prok
Hermia Linden: Sounds like some good things to me - I'll have to read up on them later to understand them :o)
Christopher Wachmann: helping lindens fix
You: yes for example exploiting groups
Philip Linden: Nah nobody forced our hand. Not even close.
Nobody Fugazi: Umm, no I didn't Philip
Kamilion Schnook: Hermia: We'd be very happy to walk you through whatever we've done.
Drew Dwi: how could one force their hand? they own the code heh.
You: Who got copies of it early, Philip?
Jarod Godel: Philip, you mean the big, green hand, right?
Christopher Wachmann: lol
Philip Linden: What sort of stuff do you guys thing people will do first to the OS viewer?
Jarod Godel: HTML on a prim!
Christopher Wachmann: i think offline building will be a big one
Zi Ree: chat.. highlight colors
Gigs Taggart: fix annoyances :)
Brock Fitzgerald: sort out search!
Hermia Linden: Thanks Kamilion. Send me an IM and we can sort out something
ThomasD Cardiff: Finish the port to linux
Keely Lawson is Online
Shoq Venkman: Phillip. "hello world?"
Nobody Fugazi: Perhaps a command line.
Drew Dwi: yay linux port :)
Zi Ree: chat.. sound highlights
Kamilion Schnook: Phillip: I'm working on a patch to add URL rewriting to the HTTP and media code
Wagahai Oddfellow: get it to compile on alternate compilers will probably be 1st ;)
Jarod Godel: LOL @ Shoq
ThomasD Cardiff: Continue with ports to other platforms
Nobody Fugazi: maybe dockable widgets.
Bopete Yossarian: lol Shoq
Zi Ree: remove.. cone of.. context :D
You: I imagine they will be companies that will put in HUDS that take you to their commercial venues.
Kamilion Schnook: for instance, say I have an icecast server, and I want to authenticate people by their SL agent key
Philip Linden: Take care all. Gotta run.
Hermia Linden: I like the sound of dockable widgets
Nobody Fugazi: well, is it a HUD if it is part of the viewer?
Shoq Venkman: bye phillip
Zi Ree: bye Philip!
Will Webb: and he's off
Jarod Godel: heh. carnivorous billboards!
Zi Ree: lol
Hermia Linden: Bye Philip
Christopher Wachmann: thanks philip!
Nobody Fugazi: Thanks PL
Kamilion Schnook: http://[agentkey]:password@site:port/
Tateru Nino: Take care!
Zi Ree: quick poof
Kunnis Basiat: I was both a FOSS developer for a clone of a game client, (libfinf on sf.net) and a paid developer for that company (furcadia.com) You're right, there will be bad use made of parts of the FOSS software, but I know that the FOSS developers tend to report a very large percentage of the bugs they find, including writing complaints about parts that are poorly written.
Aslan Pertwee: Thanks Philip
Kamilion Schnook: Thanks phillip!
Zi Ree: Kunnis.. you work.. on furcadia? :)
Gigs Taggart: prokofy, the vast majority of people will still use the LL official client
DD Ra: Bye Phillip
Gigs Taggart: they aren't going to accept a patch for an ad HUD :)
Hermia Linden: Ok time I went - night all!
You: well at least you can have a normal frank conversation with Philip
Zi Ree: hight Hermia!
Drew Dwi: bet 99% not even know there's client other than normal
Zi Ree: night*
You: without being booted or corrected by net-nanny Lindens
Nobody Fugazi: Hmm. I wonder who built your computer, Prok? Are they holding you hostage?
Kamilion Schnook: nor are they going to accept a patch called "STEEL PPLS PASSWRD LAWL.diff"
Kunnis Basiat: I wrote a 3 page complaint about the downloader that fucadia uses (it has user created content just like SL) and within a week, they repaired the downloader with all of my suggestions; it increased the download speed 5x
Ref jetpack: All Go
You: or heckled to death by !#$ tards
You: I wonder who half-educated you Nobody?
Zi Ree: aah
You: can they finish the other half?
Kamilion Schnook: The american school systemn.
Zaphod Kotobide: shouting a compaint at cory about your precious tenants during his floor time is good grounds for a boot as far as I'm concerned
Nobody Fugazi: I mean, if you don't understand how your computer works, perhaps you should log off. :-)
Mirceab Delgado: nobody from romania?
DD Ra: Night Hermia
Shoq Venkman: Yes Neva... and he didn't even have to wear a duck costume to seem approachable.
Nobody Fugazi: No, not that Nobody Mirceab
Christopher Wachmann: prok the thing you must keep in mind is that just because some OS guys find holes in the OSS client does not mean OSS is bad- it means those holes are getting fixed, and that's a good thing
You: well if you don't underatnd how a free society works, don't expect one to benefit you, either
You: whine about Bush or somethinhg
Aberdeen Achterbahn: hmm, looks like I missed out on the first land faggotry
Kamilion Schnook: That's pointless.
Nobody Fugazi: roflmao only one person here whining that I can tell.
Gigs Taggart: prokofy, same to you
Zaphod Kotobide: these townhalls aren't free for alls. Democracy exists in small amounts here
Kamilion Schnook: We can't make much of a difference with Bush. We CAN make a difference here.
You: I don't make them free for alls
You: others do
You: I engaged in the same cross talk as anyone else
Aberdeen Achterbahn: hang on, I'm going to ridicule you for a while Kamilion
You: which is no longer barred by Lindens
Kunnis Basiat: libsl has distroed all the really bad code that it would have been for LL to distro when giving away the client, so it doesn't matter that they gave away the full client.
Zaphod Kotobide: you will never be reached. pity.
You: I didn't shout, I didn't say anything in the group
Kamilion Schnook: Look, SL's just like IRC .... It's not a democracy, it's a dictatorship. Deal with it or exit gracefully.
You: so spare me with the bull
Drew Dwi: how's he able to nock me so far thought push is disabled here?
Nobody Fugazi nods at Kamilion
Jarod Godel: Kamilion: well said
You: NO I don't believe in the exit clause
Subghoul Epsilon: yes, but you were the first to remind people it was a technical town hall before going off on a tangent
Nanao Mahfouz: He pushed you with his av
Shoq Venkman: Kam. well said
Wagahai Oddfellow: yah Sibrek Bert pushed me into the next sim easily
You: if Americans all believed in the exit clause you'd have no hope of replacing Bush
Nobody Fugazi: make your own virtual world. :-)
You: we aren't like Russians, fleeing
Nanao Mahfouz: And now all my attachments are disassociated
You: That's EXACTLY what I am doing here Nobody
Nobody Fugazi: now we're on to Bush. heh.
You: I AM MAKING MY OWN VIRTUAL WORLD IN SPITE OF EVERYTHING
You: And never forget it.
Kamilion Schnook: We already have laws to limit his term length, so let's not get into silly political discussions that have no bearing on the issue.
Zi Ree: *giggles*
Kamilion Schnook: Good.
Zaphod Kotobide: Bush will be replaced. It's a foregone conclusion
Kamilion Schnook: If you make it worthwhile, I'll join.
Nobody Fugazi knows Prok lives in Proks own virtual world.
Drew Dwi: Sibrek turn off your jet pack hehe :)
Garn Conover: i wish my search worked lol
Gigs Taggart: heh
Shoq Venkman: HOw did we get onto politics?
Kamilion Schnook: Until then, I'm perfectly happy with SL's direction.
Aberdeen Achterbahn: eh, at least I hope pointers were addressed this meeting.
Jarod Godel: Any idea when the transcript will be up?
Nobody Fugazi: Harlequin, I'm sure you can do better than a penguin :-)
Kamilion Schnook: I mean, honestly, I've only seen two people constantly complaining -- Lewis Nerd and Profoky.
Kunnis Basiat: Most of it was aviable in the FAQ, a few new tidbits though.
Bopete Yossarian: I gotta admit, I was uncertain about the open source, but more optimistic now - this has been a learning experience - thanks everyone
Christopher Wachmann: lol
Bat Wings - Large whispers: Visit Abbotts Aerodrome for fast 'n' shiny stuff. Abbotts (100,100).
Bat Wings - Large whispers: To set the speed, type 'speed,x' in chat where x is the speed.
Nobody Fugazi: w00t!
Aberdeen Achterbahn: Prokofy is a paranoid old wench and I don't know who Lewis is
Aberdeen Achterbahn: so don't feel too bad
Kamilion Schnook: Blog troll ;)
Sibrek Bert: Prokofy is annoying
Nobody Fugazi: roflmao
Sibrek Bert: That's all he is.
Tomoe Cataract salutes.
Jarod Godel: Harlequin, no, no, no. Prok would never start a world. That would mean she'd have to use something besides Second Life.
Sibrek Bert: Whines and complains like a 5 year old
Kamilion Schnook: Like a little chihuahua... All yip, no perforations...
Tomoe Cataract: good evening admiral sir
You: well I wonder if you will be laughing in 90 days when the grid crashes on the hour with every new sandbox toy from the scriptkiddies
Bopete Yossarian: lol Kamillion
Kamilion Schnook: So, he's going to create his own virtual world... and can't code... and can't understand OPEN code...
Kamilion Schnook: Seems to me you're out of luck.
Zaphod Kotobide: there are 2 or three persistent complainers about this whole mess.. and god do they make alot of noise
Nobody Fugazi: if Prok griped and no one heard... would it make a sound?
Jarod Godel: Prokofy, as oposed to what?
Sibrek Bert: Prok is making his own game?
Sibrek Bert: xD
Jarod Godel: The reliability we experience everyday now?
Christopher Wachmann: prok- what happens if in 90 days the grid is NOT crashing every hour on the hour from script kiddie toys? will you admit you werewrong? :)
Nobody Fugazi: Harlequin Salome: Since prok muted me, someone please state this. "Like how you predicted the grid would be empty 90 days after point to point teleporting, Prok?" [This is fake. I didn't predict the grid would be "empty" -- I predicted it would be a "sea of red lines" as people sought to prevent others from "exploring" on them -- and I was absolute right about that--Pn.]
Kamilion Schnook: Hey, we've almost hit 2.5 million.
Kunnis Basiat: One of my sharpest skills is debugging, I can actually read crash dumps.
Nobody Fugazi: np Harlequin
Drew Dwi: thought I saw 24k online few days ago
Zi Ree: 2.5 million? o.o
Tateru Nino: Prok's allowed to be wrong about things, Nobody. We all make mistakes.
Nobody Fugazi bows
Kamilion Schnook: I can remember when SL had 27,000 residents. Not concurrent.
Kamilion Schnook: That's true.
Kunnis Basiat: Hehe
Nobody Fugazi: Yes, we all make mistakes, Tateru.
Wagahai Oddfellow would be happy with reliable transactions, a stable sim and working estate ban at this point.. but some of the other items have admittedly caught my interest
You: Tateru like that absolutely idiocy you published about the First Amendment
Kamilion Schnook: 2,475,729... we're 25,000 short, abouts.
You: as if there are people who "game it"
Nobody Fugazi: Prok's just ahead of the game right now.
You: yet they can be fined or jailed for being "incivil"
You: that was truly laughable
Subghoul Epsilon: wow. just, wow.
You: honestly I need to give you a tutorial about supreme court decisions
Kamilion Schnook: Please do.
Aberdeen Achterbahn: so tell me, how terrified of W-Hat are you still?
Kunnis Basiat: wag Unfortunally that requires diving into the server. That's going to be a whole new can of worms. I've delt with a game simular to this, and if it's anything like this, the server is going to be huge and ugly.
Drew Dwi: this was interesting have fun all :)
Sibrek Bert: Prok, I read some of your stuff on things like the Grey Goo, and honestly, you complain too much.
Kamilion Schnook: I'd love to read it, Prok.
Aberdeen Achterbahn: is it night terrors or fearful dread?
Nobody Fugazi: Prok's a lawyer now. O.o
You: your notion that what I write on SLinnsider at all falls afoul any given SUpreme Court decision is laughable
You: totally laughable
Tateru Nino: Drew, peak concurrent population was: 2007-01-07 22:04:00 | 24441
Zi Ree: 2.47 million now O.O
Kamilion Schnook: I want to see a 10 page essay on it.
Tateru Nino: Time in GMT.
Wagahai Oddfellow: Kunnis: it's always a challenge ;)
Drew Dwi: yeah thought was over 24k hehe
You: I'm not terrified at all of What, I expose its antics
You: so that there isn't the support of it that there is by people like Huns Valens
You: and libsecondlife
You: and that's a good thing
You: some of the best people in SL
Kamilion Schnook: Hm, I've never had any problems with W-hat... Are you sure you're not just goading them into retaliation?
You: the best coders
You: left libsecodlife
You: in protest
You: due to my critique
You: mission accomplished
Robin Linden: got to run. bye everyone.
Sibrek Bert: Because oh whiners like you Pork...
You: you need to clean house and be accountable
Nobody Fugazi: how would you know who the best coders are if you cannot code, Prok?
Sibrek Bert: Prok*
Bopete Yossarian: thanks Robin
You: yes the Internet is serious when people have livlihoods on it
Frontier Linden: Take care Robin!
You: respect that
Kamilion Schnook: That's nice. There will be 40 more better coders to replace him, if nessicary
EFnet Kline: Really? Can you name some?
DD Ra: Bye Robin.
Kamilion Schnook: Bye robin! Have good day! :D
Kunnis Basiat: Well stability is hard to write, but with the approch LL seems to be taking, the foss developers are going to be starting with mostly code review level stuff. Hunt down the loose bugs and slay them.
Zi Ree: mrew Frontier :) nice ..meet you :)
Kamilion Schnook: Kunnis: we've already found some memory leaks and double free bugs
Aberdeen Achterbahn: well, I suppose when Gene Replacement c alls your kid, I suppose it's right to accuse him of imaginary crimes and placing yourself in hypocrondial danger, I must say!
Nobody Fugazi: ahh well, I'd love to stay for the Prokfest, but I have more important things to do. :-)
Frontier Linden: Thank you Zi
Nobody Fugazi: l8r :-D
Kunnis Basiat: Kam: really? Do you have a svn server setup?
Kamilion Schnook: Nobody: I hear that... XD
Zaphod Kotobide: me too. this has been great fun
Nobody Fugazi: don't feed the troll!
Wagahai Oddfellow: Kunnis: main thing I want is more with the reliability or accounting for $ transactions.. send an IM or something if a transaction goes stale.. this whole "just drop it" thing doesn't work when dealing with $
Zi Ree: always nice.. see new cat.. on grid *giggles*
Kamilion Schnook: Kunnis: Will be doing so soon, until the, we have the forums at
http://www.sllabs.com
Sibrek Bert: At some point, I say the Lindens have a real conference, IRL, and anyone who wants to go can go, and they should model the area after Pooley
Nobody Fugazi: nice meeting you as well, Harlequin
Jarod Godel: Does anyone know if Linden Lab has any patents? I'm curious they're going to patent their archetecture before showing the server code.
Sibrek Bert: xD
Kamilion Schnook:
http://www.sllabs.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&board=30.0
Frontier Linden: meeeoooow
Frontier Linden: /\__/\
Frontier Linden: =( ^ : ^ )=
Frontier Linden gives a *mews*
Kamilion Schnook: Feel free to post any diffs there
Zi Ree: *giggles*
Tateru Nino: I have some important things to get done too. Later all.
Zi Ree: bya Tat!
Zi Ree: bye*
Zi Ree: no can.. type tonight .. too late :P
DD Ra: ^^ frontier
Philip Linden: OK back... done with my preso.
DD Ra: Bye Tateru !
Frontier Linden gave you Frontier Linden Bear - Thank you Nicole!.
Kamilion Schnook: Cheers folks!
Kamilion Schnook: Happy Open Source day!
Zi Ree: how.. it go Philip?`
Jarod Godel: so, it's now an ex-preso?
Kamilion Schnook: Phillip: did it go well?
Zi Ree: lol Jarod
Christopher Wachmann: wb philip
Jarod Godel: Philip, is Linden Lab going to patent their archetecture to help profitability?
Kunnis Basiat: I'm conserned about what they said about 3rd party SL Clients not being able to login to the main grid. I'm seeing one thing that can be done is 3rd parties to distro modififed clients with enhancements over the stock client.
Philip Linden: Just gave a 3 minute presentation of SL and showed a clip of the bridge of the enterprise with people watching old star trek episodes
Kamilion Schnook: Very glad to hear that :D
Philip Linden: Funny clip. Hope they put it up somewhere.
Kamilion Schnook: Lol, The original series or next generation?
You: I was wondering today when you did that Google presentation why you had Cory knocking over dominos and didn't show resident content -- does resident content embarrass you sometimes ?
Christopher Wachmann: TNG > TOS, although personally I think ds9 was the best of them all...
Philip Linden: the grid was offline for an update prok.
Shoq Venkman: Phillip..does this mean teleporting will now be referred to as "beaming up?"
Kamilion Schnook: Voyager was my favorite, personally... Janeway and Picard > TOS, imho.
Philip Linden: it was update day... huge bummer.
You: not a single machinima on youtube Philip?
Philip Linden: I remember how dumb we felt.
You: yeah that's gotta hurt
Kamilion Schnook: No worries, you screwed up, you learn from it.
Christopher Wachmann: oh come on prok give it a rest they're human too
Kamilion Schnook: Bet yer not gonna do that again ;)
You: Yes they learned never to patch again every week right
You: or else keep some stuff in stock on YouTube
Kamilion Schnook: Personally, I'd love to see the viewer modularized.
Zi Ree: they indeed.. want stop.. patch every other week
Christopher Wachmann: kam- true janeway/picard > kirk... but I still say sisko was the best
Zi Ree: go for.. heterogenous.. grid
Kamilion Schnook: Hey, it's better than EVE!
Kamilion Schnook: They've got the same concurrent user base as we do and they have to go down ever night at 3AM for DB maintence
Kamilion Schnook: *every* night... hehe
Zi Ree: oh.. wow
Zi Ree: that.. kill me :P
Kamilion Schnook: So, complain all you want, It Could Be Worse (TM)
EFnet Kline: Well, I think we're at complain central, so..
Christopher Wachmann: problem with EVE is that every night during DB maintenance it respreads area load over their cluster... thus the nightly maintenance. If they could reallocate cluster time to different areas in realtime THAT would be impressive
Zi Ree: voice say: "smile.. be glad.. could be worse.." - so me smile.. be glad.. and .. it got worse!
Kamilion Schnook: Totally, Harle ;)
Aberdeen Achterbahn: oh Sabin Linden :(
Kamilion Schnook: Or in a big fleet battle.
You: Philip do you think to sell separate licenses of the whole thing to certain companies as Tateru predicted for 2007?
Kamilion Schnook: HAh, someone was a final fantasy fan XD
Gigs Taggart: hey shaun
Kamilion Schnook: Dangit... Can anyone get to berlios?
Kamilion Schnook: I can't SVN update libsecondlife :/
Kunnis Basiat: Philip, I'm wondering about people writing third party clients that are designed to be extensions of the offical client, that may have features that aren't in the final client yet. If I write a good mod to the client that LL doesn't want to put in yet, I don't like the idea that I can't get on the main grid and that I can't give it to friends and we can get on the main grid. What are your thoughts on that? (sorry, I wanted to be here sooner, but I couldn't make it)
Zi Ree: berlios.. down
Kamilion Schnook: Again?
Kamilion Schnook: Jeez.
Zi Ree: unknown host
Kamilion Schnook: Should think about getting a sourceforge account, heh!
Zi Ree: Kunnis.. you can
Kunnis Basiat: Yeah, the back of my mind is pondering opening up opensl on SF.net
Cancifer Ogg: well heellllll
Philip Linden: Gotta run u guys.
Philip Linden: take care.
Zi Ree: can always.. mod client.. give patches to friends.. then ..still connect to main
Kunnis Basiat: Zi But in the town hall they seemed like they were going to disable that.
Frontier Linden: Take care Philip
Kamilion Schnook: the OSS SL client can connect to the main grid most of the time.
Zi Ree: only.. when update.. and open source client.. differ too much
Kamilion Schnook: There's gonna be times where it won't work so well.
Jarod Godel: As much as the Linden one?
Rob Linden: Kunnis...you should try working with us before setting up something separate
Kamilion Schnook: LMAO
Kamilion Schnook: Good point, Jarod.
Kunnis Basiat: No, they said they were going to disable that.
Cancifer Ogg: hmmm
Zi Ree: um.. me miss that.. then
Christopher Wachmann: no the only time OSS client cant connect to main grid is right after an update if LL changes something and OSS hasnt cought up
Kamilion Schnook: Rob! There you are... :D
Cancifer Ogg: I landed here
Zi Ree: they say.. there always be.. separate grid.. that fit open source
Kamilion Schnook: Just wanted to say welcome, and keep up the good work!
Kunnis Basiat: Right now, yes. But they said in the meeting they were going to disable that.
Christopher Wachmann: if they were going to explicitly keep OSS clients out I missed that too, and im pretty sure they didnt say that... doesnt make sense IMHO
Zi Ree: but.. that no.. rule out.. os client.. connect to main
Rob Linden: hi all
Christopher Wachmann: hi rob
Kunnis Basiat: In the discussion about keeping pests out.
Kunnis Basiat: Give me 5 mins
Zi Ree: sure.. please paste
Jarod Godel: Christopher, if they're trying to encourage people to build emulators (backyards), that might explain it.
Christopher Wachmann: Jeska Linden: Broccoli Curry: will there be measures in place so that ONLY the official viewer can connect to the main grid, and homemade viewers have their own grid where no damage can be done Cory Linden: There is no technical means to perfectly ensure that only official viewers can connect to the grid

Comments

[Kyrah Abattoir]

i love to read you, showing yourself in your ignorance.

[Prokofy Neva]

What do you want to bet that Kamilion Schnook probably doesn't know what the words "chameleon" or "schnook" mean lol.

[Prokofy Neva]

hehe big mouth get us banned again did it?

[Justin D-Z]

Prok: your argument about feature democracy seems to assume that the Lindens will use open source contributions to the viewer as a replacement for their need to develop.

If Linden continues to develop the viewer based on the feature voting tool AND accepts contributions from the community which are in accordance with feature voting--not all of the time, because I like the idea of sometimes taking submissions that are new and exciting and no one thought of before--then it sounds socially fair. Is that accurate?

I don't get the sense that LL will replace their own viewer development, but supplement it, with community contributions. What do you think? It might be worth just grilling them directly on whether they will use the established open community feedback system to prioritize inclusion of community-submitted enhancements.

I should have put enhancements in quotes, haha.

I also don't like anyone comparing SL to Firefox. There are viable, robust alternatives to the web. I use Safari, for example. There are not, however, robust alternatives to the Second Life client for the average guy. Additionally, one does not pay for Firefox and "rent" portions of the Internet from Mozilla by paying land tiers. They're different beasts. Having open source in common is about where the comparison stops.

Appreciate your thoughts.

[Seraph Bedlam]

Oops, sorry, Justin D-Z = Seraph Bedlam. My Firefox tends to fill out forms for me...

[Zaphod Kotobide]

Prok - I need to offer an apology - I attributed something to you that was shouted by a prankster with a slightly different last name. That was my bad, and a sincere apology. I didn't catch this until this morning reading through the transcript.

zk

[Prokofy Neva]

Uh, but wait a second. One of the big arguments FOR open-source of the client is that it will get at the place where a lot of bugs and annoyances are located and free up the Lindens for....

...well, just what, we don't know. Projects like resident governance which they should keep their paws off unless it's to make a fair playing field not ovverrun by thugs.

Right now, the operation of "opening up to the community" something in SL is littered with bad practices.

It's littered with things like Angel Fluffy taking over the Feature Voting with Torley, Jeska, and Jean "BDSM" Linden cheerleading, laughing up their sleeves at anyone who objects or disagrees, and the brutal, methodical removal of content by their lights.

You can of course go suck up to Jean or Angel, who is anything but angelic with his ugly capture roleplay crap and his anal-retentive controlling sims and methods to control groups -- but hey, life is short, then you die. I preferred to expose the Angel Problem, and was hoping Clubside would mirror a voter we could use to do things like put in "no," but he's not willing to spend time on SL lately and I DO NOT BLAME HIM.

So we're supposed to wait until it is "overhauled" -- and...God save us. It will result in a thing where you STILL cannot vote no.

It's a flawed organ, but it's what we have. People put in things there, and because it has as a requirement or option that you can go and put up a link to the forums or to your own page, they are required thus to make their case. It's that "making your case" to the public that I find most attractive about the FVT. It forces people not to be whiners but forces them to think it through.

Town halls and voter tools are what we did have, yes. Now we don't.

You're saying that these coders will make nifty stuff, the Lindens will say, oh, we love it, but that then there will be another step where they "ask the community".

But why do you think they will do that?

They don't do that anymore.

They've long since dropped any pretense of trying to "run things by" people.

They unveiled their plans to "overhaul the abuse reporting system" without a single meeting or coherent post for the public about this.

They think Ban-Link pitched to them by Travis will be enough to go with and the hell with anyone's objections.

That's another example of how minority sects, without the knowledge of the broader public, whether mainstream or merely a collection of minority sects itself, are not included.

Travis, on his ban-link proposals for controlling parcels, at least made the argument and got some certain amount of votes (regrettable, trying to make counter proposals, as I did, which got some 300 votes, was removed and described as "a policy not a feature").

People CONSTANTLY smuggle in major, politically-significant features shattering the world as "features not policies". Ban-Link is one of them.

So we already have such an unfree situation, and it will grow worse.

Example: Forseti makes a search, a new Sheep client from the new OS thing we never did hear whether he's in fact had the client for months, and that's why Jenny-fur can gloat on the SC, "Oh, I'm glad that's out now" like she and her hubbie had months to play with it already).

No one gets to discuss or vote on it because it is so hugely important (see my execution article) that the Lindens rush to press with it.

Your notion of "socially fair" sounds good in the abstract -- I'm not for insisting every proposal or coded thingie be pushed through the flawed voter system -- but it is in the abstract.

It presupposes much of what we don't have in Second Life:

o good will
o consciousness of the different classes in society and their interests
o fairness and a track record for justice
o willingness not to put LL's bottom line at the expense of the world (we are dealing very much with insect politics much of the time when we deal with LL -- they can't help but eat us because they're hungry).
o transparency

Did you need flexible tails? I didn't.

t might be worth just grilling them directly on whether they will use the established open community feedback system to prioritize inclusion of community-submitted enhancements.

I've been doing just this over and over again for the last 2 days in every setting, venue, blog, and IM. I've asked over and over again.

I decided that the way to try to get at this problem of the open source=closed club of coders in-like-Finn with the Lindies, was to ask it in terms of the Feature Voting System.

For one, I know it was a pet of Cory's, and they are overhauling it. SO possibly he's willing to think merely in terms of how one of his brainchilds could conflict with another one of his brainchilds (honestly, I don't know how to reach these indifferent and superior Lindens who live in a state where "the communnity" is only a tiny handful of coders they went to beta with or their new apprentices, and has no broader meaning).

I'm so glad you mention that you don't pay for Firefox by renting portions of it. Thank you thank you thank you.

THAT IS THE POINT LADIES AND GENTLEMAN.

The Lindens earn 70 percent of their revenue from US THE TIER PAYERS.

If they want to exploit us to make their platform, many would be sheered willingly. But let's not sugar-coat it.

I asked Cory point blank what his plan is for a business model that doesn't rely on land.

He's thinking he's just dropped a bone to libsl and his other kiddies to play with while he really possesses the keys to the kingdom.

I really want to see the look on his face when he discovers somebody uses the bridge to the mainland of Second Life to invade the mainland's core itself.

[Prokofy Neva]

Yes, I figured as much, Zaphode, thanks for showing up, I appreciate it.

[Maklin Deckard]

Hrm, King Phil comes off as pretty much a twit...barely interacting in the world other than 'great idea' every time one of the OSS dumbasses says something.

And these LibSL people? Prok, fucktards is too soft a word. From the transcript, some of these people are barely literate in ANY languate beyond code! And I see the smug, Open Souce Assholism is alive and well...the political nature of their OSS beliefs (when they are coherent enough I do not need a universal translator) is almost a religious fervor. Such blind faith in a cause, especially on without ethical backing such as programming, scares the hell out of me.

Letting these genetic rejects within a league of the source code does not bode well for the future of SL for those of us not uber-techies

(Note - I work in the tech field, networking & servers, but do NOT consider myself part of the techie 'culture'. I am NOT a 'hacker' under any defintion of the word, but rather an IT professional)

Tech can and should have limitations, just because something is doable does not make it ethically correct of societally benificial. The first question in any tech-related project should be ethical, not technical...as in 'what are the repercussions of doing this? On society? On individuals?'.

As we have seen from copybot from lbiSL, OSS sees no real ethical limits, 'if it can be done, let's do it!' with no respect for non-techies or ramifications of their work is their mantra. OSS adherents seem devoid of human considerations, their world and beliefs seem coldly mechanical, like the very code they seem to worship. Mr. Schnook, quite appropriate name, and his fellow posters seem to follow this pattern.

[King Frederick]

Only Prokofy Neva could spin the removal of the viewer development from the hands of the few to the hands of the anyone-willing-to-learn as "elitist."

"Open Source = Closed Society" is a pretty hilarious Orwellian phrase.

No Open Society unless the software is developed by an elect, secret few. To put it in the hands of the community is simply bolshevism!

[Prokofy Neva]

I'm glad you've established this for the public to consider, Maklin, as the OSS SS' screaming mantra always revolves around the idea that "we are right and you think we're wrong because you're not tekkies".

So it's good when tekkies show up to say, wait a second here...

I will say in Philip's defense that he is not a twit. Anything but. He affects some of that Donny Osman wholesome California charm, but he's as sharp as a tack.

Note that what he is doing here is actually not being AFK, but listening very intently, and even rushing back from some RL press conference to keep listening.

You would think that if he were just patting the little ones on the head, he wouldn't answer my every question. Yet he instantly does, picking my line out of the noise of people doing stupid stuff.

He picks other people's queries out of the noise too -- study it again.

That's what has always impressed me about Philip, he hears what is probably LOTS of noise, but he picks out what is worthy.

I've learned to see that when I'm asking something and I don't get an answer to re-ask it, wait, ask another time, etc. because he answers what seems to be a signal-to-noise high ratio,

Of course, like any other monarch, he has his favourites, pet causes, etc. and no doubt he was annoyed that instead of hob-knobbing with these script kiddies more, air time was taken up answering me. I keenly aware of that.

But...it's a scroll-your-own moment in SL. They had 24 hours to play with it, and all any of them who showed up there could say is erroneous stuff, like gushing that 150,000 people, not 1500 downloaded it. 99 percenet of what they were doing there with their questions was saying:

"Look at my dick, Cory. Can you show me YOUR dick?"

One bug fix has been submitted (and we don't know if that was given by those who had this 90 days ago -- and I don't doubt FOR A MINUTE that they DID have it and that accounts for their SMUGNESS everywhere.)

Note that Philip is not above showing his sly solidarity which lets me know, that no matter how polite or engaging he might be, and how much time he might seem to have for me as a generic customer not of his tribe, his heart is with these dweebs who are like himself.

Note that one asshole talks about making a HUD or client that can mute out Prokofy Neva as a default.

Where was Hermia Linden, hmmm? She's the one always springing forward to get people to be nice, and fair, and accentuate the positive.

Philip had no comment, but when Schnook praised him for the enhanced mute functions we got recently (the ability to mute noisy stupid things like the Lucky Chairs), he said "you're vw K". So we all know that Philip, in his evil ways (as I've outlined below), thinks it's marvelous that people can be muted out of existence.

[Maklin Deckard]

"He's thinking he's just dropped a bone to libsl and his other kiddies to play with while he really possesses the keys to the kingdom." - Prokofy

Cory, from his posts on the forums, impresses me as one of those 'book smart' people. You know, the ones that get 1600 on their SAT but ask then a question about HOW to use that knowledge and they blink and look confused.

Indeed he gave away the keys to the kingdom. Has he not heard of emulators? A prime example is RunUO....bunch of OS fanatics with a bigassed load of hate for EA/Origin games gets togeather and basically builds a server emulator based off decompiling the client. Took them a couple years to get it going good...now, with the right scripting, its as good as the company offering. So, there are now people using EA's client to play free servers. Sure, a few EMU's aren't hurting gigantic EA games bottom line...but LL is NOT EA, and part of their future plans is user-hosted servers.

So, now they don't even HAVE to decompile SL Client....you've saved them time....how long until the first server emu's are released? Sure, the first ones will be buggy, but in a year? By the time LL gets around to doing their own customer hosted servers, there won't be a NEED for LL's code...the EMU's will be there and up to speed....and 100% free.

I can hear the uber-techies now 'It won't hurt LL, becuase folks will want to be on the grid!', but if enough emulated servers are created, and they can link for free, LL's plans for private servers paying to be on the LL grid becomes irrelevant...as does LL.

I honestly wonder if anyone at LL put aside their uber-techie political zealotry for OSS and thought out that scenario? Without full source to the client, libSL's work was limited to griefing code and toys...now, they (and folks with even less ethics...yes, I know that is hard to conceive) basically hold LL's future in hand. The whole things sounds like a mix of 'we can get the basement-dwelling OSS suckers to fix things for free!' opportunism and techie-OSS zealotry on the part of Cory and Philip. Shortsightedness at best....suicidal for LL's future at worst.

[Maklin Deckard]

"I will say in Philip's defense that he is not a twit. Anything but. He affects some of that Donny Osman wholesome California charm, but he's as sharp as a tack." - Prokofy

I know he isn't, he's gotten this far with LL. I meant that it is the appearance he gives off...detachment, no real knowledge of his own product and no interest in the players beyond the techie-types. Which I find frightening and sad....from his responses, I don't get the feeling of a personal 'fire' behind Philip, like I expected. He talks a good game about community, but when push comes to shove, his community is a tiny, tiny percentage of SL that just happen to be coders. The rest of us do not enter into that hallowed community.

[Prokofy Neva]

Maklin, I will study what you are saying, and also study the politics I see emerging over fascinating generic issues in the SLDEV list, which you should subscribe to -- i.e. whether the bug submitted is really a bug if it is "goto" which some thing isn't a bug (that may be some extremist position, IHNI), whether there will be a clean, authoritative repositive of read-only code to prevent clutter from all these show-offs with half-baked shit, etc.

If you have ever hired scripters or operated scripts in SL, you know there is a very wide range of ability, and the performance is uneven.

I'd like to think Cory is smarter than that. He's a credentialed human being with PhDs, papers, service in the Navy -- this is not a hacksters 'r us sorta guy.

Having seem him in person, however, I feel he is a zealot, literally looking right through people as he preaches, and assumes "we the smart people are surrounded by idiots".

The little tics and posturings on this transcript are fascinating to study, like that one guy speaking in little Yoda-type faux-wise half sentences with elipses...

I remember I asked Cory something in the SOP I. It was something about the voter tool or features or governance, I can't remember -- the tapes have it. And he stared at me like a deer in the headlights, and sort of looked around and said, oh, well, ask Robin that, that's her department.

I mean, part of it was a typical answer of "don't bother us boys with the girl's stuff, we don't do social," but part of it was like, "Ask Mom, I'm not authorized to answer". I found it made me queasy.

[Prokofy Neva]

Maklin, again, just from having seen Philip in RL and having talked to him over 2 years now in these townhalls and walkabouts, he isn't as bad as Cory and some of the other tekkie Lindens as far as being telescopic on his topics.

I think in fact Philip is about as renaissance as you can get, given the limitations of what he is and what SL is, which is not, oh, I dunno, the rulers of the Ottoman or the Roman or the Byzantine Empires but just a game pretty much.

He takes a keen interest in the economy, land, politics, the social features, the group tools etc. He may fade in and out of this stuff at times -- lately he seems very preoccupioed with interviews and going to game conferences -- but he surprises you by paying attention in ways you didn't expect. I think he has about as broad a take as you can expect on this thing.

I think the person who urged that he do walkaboutst not as Philip Linden but as Newbie Penisflyer or whatever is spot on. His own persona gets in the way. He should log on an alt and fly around and check out stuff when people aren't showing off.

I learn a LOT every day by standing in the infohub in Ross. I've overwhelmed with what I learn. I can't respond to 1/100th of what I learn. I try to add and change stuff and smooth the way but there are lots and lots of different people coming in and it's very hard to make a one-size-fits all reception committee for them.

As for the hallowed community, the feted ones, one of the things I've been sad to see is how they push away people who are tekkies and would seem to be of their tribe, but just don't wear the right sneakers or use the right deodorant or whatever it is they need to do to fit in.

[Prokofy Neva]

>Only Prokofy Neva could spin the removal of the viewer development from the hands of the few to the hands of the anyone-willing-to-learn as "elitist."

Absolutely. Because it's not a spin, it's a report.

Only the very feted will a) know how to download this AND -- MOST IMPORTANTLY b) get the right Linden ear and pipeline to see their script be turned into a screenplay.

Before, we had a powerful executive that was illegitimate as a strong-arm authoritarian ruler, but who still would have things called "town halls" and "voting machines" and "SL Views" and "the forums" to hear what people thought of stuff.

Now, with the forums killed off, the voter thingie under repair, the blog a morass of noise and removal of legitimate commentary, the SL Views hopelessly FIC'd, they don't have a system in place to hear the protests and cries of the people most affected by what they are doing -- rearranging the atoms of the world in ways that could well cause a nuclear explosion.

[Maklin Deckard]

"If you have ever hired scripters or operated scripts in SL, you know there is a very wide range of ability, and the performance is uneven." - Prokofy

Fully understood. On the old text-based MU*'s, I was a senior coder...I could make Multi-User Forth do things that amazed the other staff. Here, I can make minor, minor toys in LSL. Differences in languages, differences in projects, in people....and LL can no longer control quality level via hiring...sure they are going to get free work done, but how much time will be wasted separating the wheat from the chaff? And we cannot expect the libSL/OSS folks to separate it...It is a rare programmer that can say 'hey, I'm not as good as the rest' Usually they all think they are top-tier.

As to the politics on the SLDEV list, I expected that. OSS projects that I have had to deal with via work (reading their lists, forums) either tend to be highly dictatorial - AKA one man or small group runs the show -- or near anarchy of competing egos. Both tend to fork when one side gets annoyed with the other.

Personally, I prefer proprietary software...on central contact for help (not volunteers worldwide that usually reply RTFM), there is less wading through egos (those that rock the boat too much tend to leave the companies one way or another), and I have severe ethical disagreements with most of the fundamental priciples of OS. The GPL constantly mentions 'free' and 'freedom', but it is QUITE an orwellian definition of freedom...not a 'free to do with as you please' but more a 'replace the corporate restrictions with a whole new set of equally onerous restrictions and say its free because we have higher motives than you do'.

[Prokofy Neva]

>Philip Linden: 1,500 Zaphod. But I agree.

Where's Clay Shirky to tell us about the tryme virus, eh? And where's Philip Linden to tell us about the 10 percent burn-'n'-churn rate, eh?

[Schwartz Guillaume]

The only reason -- the ONLY reason -- you hate the idea of the Open Source client is that it attracts people to SL besides the ones you love to prey on: the inexperienced, technically non-inclined (or even technophobic) user that just wants a house, a set of sexballs and a landlady to look after it all.

You're astoundingly transparent, and all these thousands of words don't hide the fact that you want a dumb community to pad your bottom line.

[Seraph Bedlam]

You're welcome on the Firefox thing. I think LL views SL as a 3D browser a bit too much. It's also a currency, an economy, and a land regulatory agency. The comparison struck me as amateur.

But, sorry I wasn't clear on your response on coding balance. You don't think that it would be fair if LL did their own client work as they do now *and* accepted community submissions based on something like 75% votes and 25% this-matches-the-game-plan?

Or are you stating that it would be fair, but that's not how it is/will happen--a fact which is dangerous. I couldn't tell if you disagreed with my thoughts in theory or in practice.

I should note that I am a fan of the Apple product strategy, btw. I tend to like well designed, proprietary products guided by a heavy-handed dictator with good vision and taste.

That does not seem to be the route that Linden Labs is taking. Specifically, I get the impression, because they want Second Life to be the 3D Internet (not a 3D Internet) and are trying to mimic the path of open, hackable, organic technology with some basic protocol oversight by a few geniuses and techies.

[Prokofy Neva]

It *might* be fair and isn't worth parsing as it will NOT happen.

[jauani]

i thought balkanization was a good thing.

[Joshua Nightshade]

Oh man Prokofy.

[Seraph Bedlam]

Prok: Thanks for the clarification. I think I understand your position now.

Schwartz: The viewer code will attract more techies. True. That does not, however, inherently mean that it will turn away non-techies. Prok is arguing (well, part of his argument--they tend to be several arguments lumped together) that it will be a barrier to non-techies because it will be poorly regulated. I mean poorly both in the sense of "not enough" and "not well." I'm not agreeing with you one way or the other, but would like to point out an analogy.

I think Prok is saying that contribution by the community to Second Life should be like the US court system. The average person does not understand the legal code. The average person would be hopeless to defend their rights in court. But the US does not say "sux 2 be u, learn the code." It says "you have a right to this regardless of your legal skill so here is your lawyer."

Prok wants the *entire* community to have a very US-representative-democracy-like right to determine priorities for the viewer without having to learn to program. It's a statistical fact, I'm sure, that the community will include some people who's feature idea or priority contributions would be more beneficial than some coder's feature implementation. Or to put it another way, just because someone can code well does not in any way, shape or form imply that their intellectual contribution is at all beneficial.

Now, assuming I am capturing Prok's voluminous text accurately, I am inclined to agree with his approach because I think Linden should be democratic. MMORPGs are not typically democratic, but they don't typically have asset leasing/ownership by the customer and they don't typically have a an *officially sanctioned and endorsed economy.* What Prok is also saying is that Linden has to carefully respect the money that people have tied in to Second Life. If this were World of Warcraft you would be right in saying that people's financial expectations are unreasonable or sophomoric. But in this case, the L$ is a major feature of SL and Linden Labs promotes SL actively using the concept of L$ as real currency. As a result of this, users will expect a democracy regarding Linden features because that is the natural US (and many places elsewhere) choice structure to safeguard that investment. If Linden Labs outright stated that SL is a dictatorship, people would be less likely to invest because Linden would have the right to make those investments worthless. In a real democracy, the right to screw up the economy would actually be the customer's right.

So, if elitist privileges were given in Second Life based on the current political pseudo-structure they would be given by volume of fiscal investment in Linden. This means people who have spent alot, earned alot, own lots of land, etc. They have a right to influence the success of the world because they are, literally, invested in it's success.

Again, just trying to clarify Prok's position. I'll leave it up to him to confirm or deny my efforts in part or whole. As for me, I don't pay tier and have never purchased any L$ beyond my monthly membership. So, I'm clearly not arguing in favor of my own financial interests ;-)

[Cocoanut Koala]

What's worse, than, "It can be done, so let's do it!", Maklin, is "No, it can't be done, and we won't bother trying."

Which actually translates to, "We don't want to work on that, cause we don't care about that." And we get this from the Lindens as well as coder-type residents.

Where are all the things they could make to help protect us content creators from theft from our items?

They don't exist, because there we have 0/1. You can't ever stop all thefts, there might still be 1 in a thousand chance.

So it's not worth even trying, give it up, already. Let your content be FREEEEE!

Would that scripts were vulnerable. I imagine they wouldn't be nearly as philosophical about that.

coco