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March 05, 2007

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» Thoughts on “ageplay.” from Sanctuary|Online
All have valid points.The thing is, when it comes to Second Life®, anyway, usually the first thing people think of when they hear “ageplay” are the various locations in-world where sexual ageplay (adult avatars having trysts with child avatars) is... [Read More]

Comments

Lorelei Patel

"So far, the comments on Tateru's column are all self-justifying and all applaud her quirky and illegitimate take on things."

Yeah, all **TWO** of them :rolls eyes: Jump the gun much?

And what's this got to do with Asperger's? But if it's lack of empathy you wish to talk about, I do hope you take a moment to examine your own attitudes towards others.

So, you don't like people who role play being younger. Some people don't like those who role play being cranky landlords of the opposite gender. Imagine!

Prokofy Neva

1. Yes, all two of them, and that in itself is disturbing, that there are only two, and both pro-ageplay from the amen-corner. So I hope my article will stir more interest and get more comments going, because I believe it to be a serious matter, justifying ageplay morally in this way by lying about it and white-washing it.

2. Yes, Aspergers' is definitely at issue. What, we can have "Thoughts on Ageplay" and we can't have "Thoughts on Aspergers'?" We sure can, when people with Aspergers' rule our world, gaining a prominent column space in a widely-read and cited AOL-sponsored blog; gaining all kinds of feting and "cred" in SL for running Welcome Areas and then continuing to serve as mentor -- HELL yah, we SURE do get to do that.

And as I try to reason aloud about this, I conclude two things:

1) Aspergers as a condition may account for a lack of empathy for real children affected by abuse, and the real issues surrounding this crime, and a failure to take it morally and legally seriously enough.

2) Aspergers as a condition may account for the seizing on inconsequential features of "ageplay", like the fact that a minority of Linden-blessed types are in something called "Second Children" used to try to burnish the image of "child play" in SL to desexualize it -- when we all know that *sexualized* ageplay is rampant, widespred, and has hugely populated groups in SL.

So focusing on the minority of de-sexualized groups and ignoring the majority of obviously heavy sexualized and even violent and dysfunctional groups, willing to display pictures of child avatars bound, whipped, injured, caged, raped, and captured -- that could well be a psychiatric condition.

Because to ignore the truth like that, yes, could be a function of one's perceptive apparatus, and the inability to search for terms and see all the SEARCH results in Groups.

3) The curious apathy about the issue, the willingness to step on any number of concerns about this, the inability even to concede it as an issue -- yes, these may all be part of a condition.

4) On the other hand, perhaps not, but it can be publicly discussed. It maybe simply that it is characteristic of the FIC that their features overlap with Aspergers'-like symptoms, where they exaggerated details, obsess on the inconsequential, ignore the obvious, whitewash the inconvenient.

It's not up to me to "like" or "dislike" my tenants; I provide a service, they can pay, or refund, it's up to them. Hey, they have LOTS of choice in SL. And my remarks here aren't about "like" or "dislike" or having "empathise" or "not ephathise". It's about how you report an issue accurately, and whether you whitewash a community's concerns. I constantly see group chat and notecards and blogs and entire sites devoted to ageplay concerns, and I think you need to question when prominent people in power, leadership figures, whitewash it in this way.

Clayton Denmoore

I'm sorry Prokofy, but what crime? What children? I don't believe any US statues are being broken in SL. There aren't supposed to be any childern in there is there? Any sneaking in the onus would be their parent or guardian wouldn't it? There isn't any physical contact is there? No real sex right?

Finally I think the term ageplay includes more than fictional sex between consenting adults as you seem to imply but rather seems to be an umbrella term for a genre of role play that can also include any form of age-related roleplay, be it role playing a 2000 year old hermit, a kindly grandmother or 14 year old going to jr. highschool. Point being in SL and more importantly in the United States Adults pretending to be those things with other adults isn't a crime is it?

Are you saying that this Tatuero is a actual child molester? For roleplaying a child avatar in a non-sexual fashion? That She's supportive of pedophiles? When no childern are present? What is your claim here? I'm confused.

Prokofy Neva

1). I'm not at all certain that statutes against child pornography *aren't* being broken. I think, like the Dutch cases, it will require someone taking the trouble to press charges for these definitions to clarify.

2). Indeed there are children, and the Lindens acknowledge that there are minors by saying that they no longer can check, and can only produce a status of "unverified". It's up to users to determine whether "unverified" means "European" or "12 years old".

3). In any discussion of this topic, it's important to make the moral condemnation of RL child pornography and to condemn those who simulate it morally as well. I think that's more than fine. I condemn them. So should an AOL-sponsored publication. If AOL, for God's sake, can't find a way to condemn simulated child pornography, then who can??? It's important for mainstream Internet companies to take a stand.

4). I don't buy the concept that 'no real sex takes place'. Of course it takes place. Having a physical barrier like "the Internet" doesn't mean someone has not become influened or emotionally involved; of course they have.

5)."Ageplay" is a term dreamed up by those engaging in child pornography simulation to sanitize what they do. It's like the way BDSM makes the name for their Bondage, Domination, Sadism, and Masochism edge away from the ugly reality of those ugly words -- it's like KFC trying to hide the fat calories from you in *Kentry Fried Chicken*. We all *get* what's up with a fanciful term like "ageplay".

It's all part of the Big Lie. And proof of the sanitizing and obfuscating effect is that people who try to resurrect 'child play' as a legitimate innocent activity don't try to call what *they* do ageplay; they use other terms and try to shy away from the very clearly OVERWHELMING association of child play with *simulated child molestation*. That's what it IS, and it can't be prettified.

6). Adults pretending to have simulated child molestation and transmitting simulated child pornography may not get off the hook in every state. I don't know, I'm not a prosecutor or a lawyer. But morally, such activity is reprehensibe and is to be condemned. There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with saying IT IS WRONG. And so I do. Trying to bully and browbeat people from articulating freely what is the community norm and the mainstream is really unseemly. Only extremist sectarians do that. In SL, as dysfunctional and as sick as it is at times, with weak, excusing and exonerating liberals lurching all over, it may not be visible as a mainstream or moral position. That's ok. It's a good thing to remember that for most societies, and for the real world at large, simulating child rape isn't a normal or acceptable practice. It's a dysfunction, and morally reprehensible if put forth as an "entertainment". Glad we can be clear on that. If you are NOT clear on that, I think probably you're suffering from some of the same SL-inducted or medically-induced conditions that may afflict Tateru, who knows.

7) I have no knowledge of what Tateru does in SL in her home, I don't hear that she's an ageplayer, but I think her shtick here is more about trying to play man-bites-dog with what she views as some kind of 'oppressive majority'. She imagines herself fighting the good fight, serving as SL's Good Samaritan in bravely and gamely trying to punch up the "facts" about ageplay to counter "the media hype".

All that's happened, however, is that Fox News has given a rather truthful, even acidic coverage of this stuff -- and it's about time. It's good for people to come out of the self-induced hypnosis of thinking that "what happens in SL stays in SL". It doesn't. And it's not acceptable.

My documentation here -- and I've amply documented the propagagndistic methods -- is that Tateru is whitewashinging child rape simulationists. I think that's wrong. I think she's totally skewing the coverge, making patently false claims about the 'innocence' of this community, demonstrably false. I think she's purveying the Big Lie on this one, in the service of some higher agenda which I guess is about being Fangirl No. 1 for Linden Lab, I'm not sure. Whatever -- I'm here to condemn it.

Doug Sharp

"Thoughts on Asperger's", huh? My daughter has Asperger's and so I started to read this post with interest.

It should be retitled "Thoughts on Age Play" or broken up into 2 posts. Anyone looking for insight into Asperger's and SL should look elsewhere.

Prokofy Neva

No, they should look right here, Doug if they are in SL. If not, well, not everything on the Internet can satisfy your demands, and you have to keep moving down the Google list, eh?

A prominent figure with Aspergers' in SL, who prides herself on it even, is whitewashing ageplay. She is making bunches of excuses for it, and is making the most outrageous claims about it. How can this be? Well, we need to parse this. And it's a good thing in general to parse the way in which people like this, with their even avowed perceptional problems, nevertheless come to powerful and influential positions, and thereby inflict those perceptions on the public at large.

I don't get why I need to sit still for that? If your daughter has Aspergers, I sympathize, we all have our sad stories, but hey, why does that mean I can't ask questions about the condition, and about those in power who influence others and who whitewash ageplay?

What, we're all supposed to think that Second Life is the Upside Down Republic, where those who are the halt and the lame and the geek in RL all get to be in power and lord it over everybody who every mocked them in RL?

Therefore we need to discuss it. It's not politically correct, but, hey, that's not a problem I suffer from. I *do* discuss it because it's something that is one of those "givens" about the society of Second Life -- that we're all to remain mum on this topic for fear of appearing to offend -- or anger somebody who might happen to have a family member such as you do.

No, this is Thoughts on Aspergers, not Thoughts on Ageplay. And no, nothing has to be "broken into two". What we need to hear is an accounting of how these false and exaggerated impressions can come about -- and as I've explained, that may well be a function of the condition itself. I think it deserves exploration. If you don't, I quite understand, but then you can move on to the next Google link.

Economic Mip

My problem with Linden Labs is that their mindset is problematic. First and foremost, they claim zero liability. This is a myth, their site their responsibility to police. Second they claim that everyone on the grid is an adult. This is too similar to how chat rooms were originally dealt with. You claim to be a twelve year old on your profile, well then of course you are... We are far past that age, innocence is lost.

Eventually the real life and second life will combine in an unpleasant way, because anarchy leads to criminal minds abusing the freedom. How do you know those girls in a Gorean slave market are not just emblems of the real thing being sold to international bidders? How can you be certain that child avatar is not a real child being desensitized by a predator? You really don't and that is absolutely chilling to me, especially coming from a nation where a child is abused every five seconds, and people are sold across the borders every day. (That nation being Zimbabwe.)

Allana Dion

Ok first of all, whether a person suffers from Aspergers or lives life in wheelchair or happens to like brie cheese has absolutely no bearing on whether or not their opinions are valid or whether they are entitled to express those opinions.

Secondly, Prokofy, you have simply proven over and over again that sexuality is a topic you're just not qualified to lecture on. It's not because of any limitations you may or may not have, but because you, like many others, choose to base your opinions on a complete LACK of actual knowledge or exploration.

For those who prefer to make their judgements (or better yet choose NOT to judge) on actual knowledge rather than base emotional response .....

BDSM is not about pain, slavery, abuse, etc. It never has been.

Ageplay is not about sex with children, it is about experiencing BEING a child, not being WITH a child. Note the enormous difference.

In fact some forms of ageplay are often used by real life therapists as a means of healing the effects of child abuse.

The majority of people who ageplay do not include sexual activity in their roleplay. The minority who do, are doing it to experience the feelings of BEING the child which quite clearly differentiates it from pedophilia.

That fact was pretty clearly shown to me in a couple of interviews I recently did with two real ageplayers. See Prok, that's called actually researching a subject before spouting off about it.

http://www.allanadion.com/?p=83

Allana Dion

Economic: "How do you know those girls in a Gorean slave market are not just emblems of the real thing being sold to international bidders? How can you be certain that child avatar is not a real child being desensitized by a predator?"

Uhhh Logic? Common sense? Perhaps not having an overactive imagination?

These people are roleplayers, playacting. It's really no more dark and sinister than that.

Cocoanut Koala

"BDSM is not about pain, slavery, abuse, etc. It never has been."

Well, Allana, you had better get started changing the name, then. Bondage, dominance, sadism and masochism. If it's not about that, then they need to change the name.

And the Gor version of it - well, you had better let them know that it really isn't supposed to have anything to do with slavery.

I think, yes, that a lot of ageplay is about having sex with children (i.e., pretending to have sex with children; acting out a fantasy of having sex with children), and has always been, for centuries upon centuries before you were ever born.

coco

Prokofy Neva

No, Allana, you're merely spouting a politically-correct point of view, but it's not true, and you know it. It's appropriate in this case to ask, given that this is a disability that takes the form of altered perceptions and behaviours, if that is affecting the person's judgement. I'm sorry, but that's just the case, and you can't wish it away.

I'm entitled and qualified to speak on sexuality as much as anybody who spends a lot of time in SL. It's just that as we've long ago established, I don't accept the extremist dogmatic view about it espoused by BDSMers and Goreans. I apply liberal values to these extremist lifestyles and I find them contemptible.

As I've stated many, many times, the hallmark of their propaganda is to try to establish that you "know nothing" and "aren't an expert" and "can only become an expert by being indoctrinated by the masters for ages".

I wouldn't accept that argumentation if someone tried to sell me, I dunno, Catholicism in that fashion. And I don't see why I have to accept BDSM propaganda using the same methods. If a position is intellectually indefensible and morally contemptible, no amount of indoctrination and "instruction" can bring you around to reversing that truth.

Ageplay is the simulation of child rape. It's wrong. Sugar-coating it with all kinds of touch-feely bullshit about recovering one's lost childhood and "being a child" not "being with a child" is utter bullshit. It's about being with an abusive adult, that's what it's about being with, and the need to relive that isn't therapeutic, but dysfunctional, as I've argued very persuasively on the Herald. (I'll have to find the link, it was an excellent argumentation.)

Ageplay is NOT used by reputable therapists. *Play therapy* used with children and even adults, althoug less frequently, is not "ageplay" and trying to muddy the waters and capture some sanctification of "ageplay" in this matter is rephrensible.

No, Allana is up to her usual sectarian and cultic tricks, trying to pass off what as acceptable what is in fact to be condemned.

I'm glad Economic has spoken up about real abuse and real slavery in the real world, which really shows up the awfulness of wealthy Westerners play-acting this stuff as entertainment and pleasure in a virtual world. It's sick, and it's just fine to say so.

Prokofy Neva

If it's not about that, then they need to change the name.

Of course it's about that. And it's all part of the Big Lie that they try to lighten up the name by using the acronym "BDSM" like "KFC" ROFL. It's hilarious to watch the hypocrisy. Then they spin out a yarn about how it's all about "power exchange" as if this is some sanctified sacrament. It's utter crap. Of course it's not. It's violence and slavery, no way that can be prettified.

Allana Dion

"Well, Allana, you had better get started changing the name, then. Bondage, dominance, sadism and masochism. If it's not about that, then they need to change the name."

Actually Coco, that is only one definition. The definition I practice is BDSM meaning Bondage/Disciple - Domination/submission - servant/Master.

Same acronym, whole different way of practicing. You see just like the rest of the population, we are not all the same and will not all fit into the same neat little boxes.

"And the Gor version of it"

I am not a Gorean roleplayer, which is why, as you might notice, I have not commented on Gor. Gor does have slavery. Gor is also FICTION.

"I think, yes, that a lot of ageplay is about having sex with children "

"Ageplay is the simulation of child rape. "

Ok so by what research and factual information do you base this opinion? Or is that an opinion based on an emotional response?

Again, I'd say go read my interview with real ageplayers. They explain themselves fairly clearly.

"As I've stated many, many times, the hallmark of their propaganda is to try to establish that you "know nothing" and "aren't an expert" and "can only become an expert by being indoctrinated by the masters for ages"."

I've never said that. I've said research the facts if you are going to choose to form an opinion and don't base your opinions on emotional response. The three levels of thought Prokofy, look it up sometime.

Allana Dion

"It's violence and slavery, no way that can be prettified."

I am not, nor have I ever been a slave. I would not choose to be. And there is no violence in my relationship.

Prokofy Neva

I don't base my responses on "emotional responses" but on the facts of the matter. I see the Big Lie, and I dismantle it, as I did with The Tateru's rhetoric. Your rhetoric gets the samee treatment, Allan *shrugs*; it's emotional for you, not me, because I don't care about it like you do.

Slavery is slavery. Violence is violence. Coercion is coercion. Domination is domination. You don't whitewash this stuff, and we don't go to Room 101 to learn a Newspeak version of it, sorry.

I realize it's very uncomfortable and even enraging to be told your beliefs and lifestyle are indefensible. But they aren't defensible. Slavery and violence aren't the norm. Trying to recreate them as elaborate bullshit "domination and subjugation" RP doesn't prettify it. It is what it is.

I find that the BDSMers in RL don't pretend that they aren't all abuot the whips and the chains. It's the weekend whippers on SL that get all cerebral and virtual and try to pretend it's something it isn't.

You have a great deal of emotional investment in these beliefs, and they shape the only meaning you have in life, so I realize it's not something you can pry apart and examine. Nevertheless, it's contemptible.

Perhaps these BDSMers might be moved to conscience by the prospect of having *their own children* raised this way in RL -- that might be enough for them to wake up.

Allana Dion

"I realize it's very uncomfortable and even enraging to be told your beliefs and lifestyle are indefensible."

Not enraging, just mind boggling that it bothers you so much. And I don't use the word lifestyle usually, though I have a few times because it's a word people are familiar with. I prefer relationship style or relationship preference.

"Slavery and violence aren't the norm."

You're right, they are not the norm and they have absolutely nothing to do with my relationship style.

"I find that the BDSMers in RL don't pretend that they aren't all abuot the whips and the chains. It's the weekend whippers on SL that get all cerebral and virtual and try to pretend it's something it isn't."

Hahahahahaha... thanks I needed the laugh. Clearly a statement made by someone who has no actual knowledge of real world BDSM practices. The whips and chains ARE the weekend whippers. D/s and BDSM are about relationships not the toys people use.

"You have a great deal of emotional investment in these beliefs, and they shape the only meaning you have in life, so I realize it's not something you can pry apart and examine."

Quite untrue. I very often pry apart and examine various aspects of my life, my beliefs, my preferences. I'm always seeking to understand.

As to the "only meaning [I] have in life"... You know nothing about my life. My sexuality and my relationship style are a very small facet of who I am.

"Perhaps these BDSMers might be moved to conscience by the prospect of having *their own children* raised this way in RL -- that might be enough for them to wake up."

Now that's just a ludicrous statement. Really, my children have never had anything to do with my relationship or sexual preferences. Do yours? Of course not.

I've explained that this is a relationship/sexual preference for me. So that statement is as ridiculous as telling a gay person that they should be worried if their child is "raised gay".

But you know it's ok that you don't understand me, that's not the point here. You don't need to understand. But you also don't need to, nor have the right to pass judgement and decide for other people what is "contemptible" and what is not.

But anyway, I'm out. I'm done. Feel free to go back to bashing other people and their activities. I'm bored with you again.

Ace Albion

I'm not going to step in the way of the argument about BDSM etc, I just wanted to ask two question and make a comment about Allana's quote here:

"The majority of people who ageplay do not include sexual activity in their roleplay. The minority who do, are doing it to experience the feelings of BEING the child which quite clearly differentiates it from pedophilia."

My question is, do we have the numbers on this? Did we, for example, check groups related to "ageplay" and count "inner child happy friends" and "lolita rape fantasy" groups or whatever and get a head count of each kind?

My second question is, if ageplay, even in a sexual way, is only about "being" a child, then what's in it for "Daddy"?

My only other comment is that talking to two people will give you the sum experience of two people. It would take only one person to admit that yes, they enjoy the fantasy of child rape to turn the quoted assertion to a falsehood. I'm not arguing so much as just saying maybe you have to be careful with making statements based on small samples.

I have a friend who is an occasional ageplayer, and it's not something I really talk about with her, but I do know she's a wonderful mother to her children in RL. I also have another friend who tends to appear as a kind of Wednesday Addams type of goth child, ironically, because it cut down on the amount of harassing for cyber that she'd get.

As for the aspergers angle, well, yes, you'd have to wonder what kind of lack of empathy for the sheer emotional weight around the subject of ageplay could lead to such a by-the-numbers rationalisation of it.

I don't want to get into the BDSM argument here, though I'd be happy to put my views out on a specific topic about it. I will say this, though- I like Allana, I don't consider her as one of the "pod-people" of the scene.

Vargas Cleanslate

Sometimes I wonder where you find the energy to keep maintaining your constant level of moral outrage. You often make very insightful points, but they tend to get washed out in the noise. This article started out so well...

While I respect your distaste for BDSM and Gor and ageplay and other such sexual activity, I don't see how you justify them as immoral.
Sure, they may not be to either of our tastes, but all of these activities are performed by consenting adults.
BDSM is a huge category that ranges from playful spankings to complicated scenarios like Gor that boggle my mind. The common feature? They're consensual. What do you call non-consensual BDSM? It's rape, plain and simple. A particularly horrific form of rape, but this does not mean BDSM is inherently abhorrent. If you don't like it, you're under no obligation to participate.
I don't like Gor. I think it's misogynistic and rather silly. That being said, as long as everyone involved is a volunteer, I'm fully in favour. Any harm being done to the participants is entirely of their own volition.

You asked "How do you know those girls in a Gorean slave market are not just emblems of the real thing being sold to international bidders?" but this is a moot point. How do I know the prims of the latest Ravenglass build don't represent slaves being sold to the highest bidder? Or the cubes popping out of the ANWR oil rig? All three scenarios are equally possible. The only difference I can see is that you disapprove of Goreans. To disparage symbols because you don't like what they potentially might represent in a hypothetical situation is at best a straw man and at worse the exact sort of Soviet propaganda technique you so commonly accuse others of using. Uncle Joe in the picture up there could probably tell you a hell of a lot more about it.

You also asked "How can you be certain that child avatar is not a real child being desensitized by a predator?"

Well for one thing, that's not ageplay, that's a child being desensitized by a predator. It's a different issue entirely. Regardless, while there certainly is the possibility of children pretending to be adults on the grid, what sort of scenario do you envision that leads to their exploitation? A community where all members are assumed to be adults hardly seems like a fertile hunting ground for child predators, and any sort of coercive sexual behavior is against the community standards, regardless of the victims' age.

I won't dance around the issue. A great deal of ageplay is sexual in nature. For a lot of ageplayers, it's probably entirely sexual in nature. But so what? All the arguments above apply, "Big Lie" or not. Consenting adults should be allowed to roleplay whatever they damn well please. There is a distinction between simulating actions and performing them. It's certainly wrong to murder. Do you honestly believe we must decry anything that depicts killing? I find taking life to be so offensive that I refuse to swat mosquitoes that bite me, but put a game console in front of me with GTA in it and I'll show you a bloodbath like nothing you've ever seen. I can distinguish between a game and reality, and my desires in the two are not necessarily the same. Sexual roleplaying at its core is a game. While like any game it has the potential to get out of hand, that doesn't mean you should throw the baby out with the bathwater.

You said "Slavery is slavery. Violence is violence. Coercion is coercion. Domination is domination. You don't whitewash this stuff, and we don't go to Room 101 to learn a Newspeak version of it, sorry." but you seem to be the one lost in an Orwellian nightmare, unable to distinguish symbol from subject, fiction from fact and thought from deed. Like a good child of engsoc, you're more than willing to punish thoughtcrime. After all, thinking ill of Oceania is treason against Oceania! Thus, roleplaying slavery IS slavery. Should you ever decide to try and sort it out, I'll give you a hint: Just because it's called the ministry of love doesn't mean they'll treat you lovingly.

In the end, your only argument that isn't built on a foundation of faulty logic is that of morality. In your own words:
"I realize it's very uncomfortable and even enraging to be told your beliefs and lifestyle are indefensible. But they aren't defensible." But even this falls apart immediately when held up to the light of reason. While I personally find the stigmatization and marginalization of the transgendered/transsexual reprehensible, there are many who find it immoral. If morality is simply the will of the pack, how are your own beliefs and lifestyle any less indefensible? I'm sure we can agree that just because a large group disapproves of something or because it's not "normal," it's not necessarily wrong. (otherwise, you're in a logical tangle I fear you'll never escape) You could take a purely utilitarian approach, but it seems the greatest benefit to the greatest number would be the freedom to choose the behavior consenting adults see fit. I'm a great believer in Kant's moral philosophy, and for the life of me, I can't see how the categorical imperative would deem these act immoral. So please define how on earth sexual roleplay between consenting adults is immoral in a way that references something, anything more than your own personal preferences and notions of normality. Make a cohesive argument and you might actually have a point. Otherwise, you seem to have less empathy than those with Asperger's, and absolutely no excuse.

Desmond Shang

>>I think it's more than fine that people like Desmond Shang bar ageplay from their sims.

I'm not quite sure what "ageplay" means. It seems to mean different things to different people. This is what is in my land covenant:

"No ... combining sexual activities of any kind with underage avatars."

Jellin Pico

Prok, as usual you have only one side of an argument and refuse that there can even exist another side, unless it's the -wrong- side. On one of my Alt's I rp a 10 year old girl in SL. I found a couple who wanted to RP parents.

I think in today’s world it’s quite natural that the first question in someones mind is if there is a sexual component? Absolutely not.

My character, and yes, I do think of her as my character, an rp actress, does not at any time engage in anything sexual. My “parents” do not engage in sexual rp with me, nor do they wish to.

If you were to ask me why, why do I rp a 10 year old, my only answer that would make sense is that I’m trying to get a small virtual bit of the childhood I missed.

I was never sexually molested, but I did not have a good childhood. I had a very bad childhood. Neglect, emotional cruelty and violence was how I grew up. My parents were divorced but my father was still in my life. He was a complete alcoholic. I went to spend some weekends with him. He would buy me a large supply of candy and ice cream, enough for the weekend, and then drink himself unconscious.

My mother was an ex stripper who had a lousy opinion of mean and sex. She was also a binge drinker and a mean and nasty drunk who would take every possible frustration in life out on me. I grew up being told I was worthless, and would grow up to be a failure at life like my father. I was told over and over if it weren’t for my mother I’d be a bum on the street. I grew up never, not once, not ever having done anything that satisfied her.

She let me know I was a constant disappointment and because I was born I had ruined her life.

All of this in between the beatings.

My psychiatrist has told me that he’s very honestly surprised I didn’t turn out psychotic, that I only have some deep self esteem issues now.

So why do I rp a little girl?

So i can experience, even if it’s just virtually, some of the childhood I never had. I can be a little kid and no one will hurt me. No one will accuse me of ruining their life because I didn’t wash the dishes just right. I can tell my rp parents I love them and they tell me that I am loved. Simply loved for who I am

And to my great surprise, I do feel as if I’m experiencing a better childhood than the one I had — even if it is only virtual. I think it’s healing some old wounds. And I’m having a lot of fun.

Jellin Pico

Almost forgot to add, playing a child av you get to know a lot of other child av's. Whether you choose to believe it or not, there is a large number of people playing child av's who have absolutely no interest whatsoever in sexual ageplay.

No interest

whatsoever.

But I doubt you'll believe this.

Lorelei Patel

Jellin: *hug* No kid should have to live like that.

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Here's a fun trivia fact of the day. In the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory, a repressed personality and a histrionic personality are expressed as two extremes of the same scale.

Reading discussions like this one, I can see the truth in that.

Prokofy Neva

"What's in it for Daddy?" SO well said, Ace, good one. Very much the point.

Jellin:

1) I have no way of knowing if your story is true or not. You are a stranger on the Internet.
2) If it *is* true, or partly true, I can't be sure that your psychiatrist is correct; indeed, you may well have turned out psychotic, he may not know it, or you may not be telling the truth about it.
3) Many people all over the world have alcoholic or drug addicted or abusive parents. That doesn't entitle them to be assholes to other people; it goesn't give them a blank check to engage in morally reprehensible "ageplay" simulating child molestation. This faulty reasoning is absolutey suspect.
4) People who tell dramatic stories on the Internet suffer from histrionic symptoms, Allana; that's hardly what I do when I critique propaganda from The Tateru. Your comments might well apply to Jellin.
5) People who try to gain sympathy in the realm of Second Life by borrowing the coin of the realm in real life -- sad childhood stories -- usually earn if not my suspicion, then my contempt. I think it's low. Everybody has a story; no amount of sad story-telling gets your off the hook in SL, morally or legally -- or RL for that matter.

I simply open my eyes, count the groups in the group list, and watch what happens around SL on the grid. It defies the truth to claim the large majority of people play innocent ageplay, when in fact they don't. I personally have seen hundreds of them parade by, and can only think of one who plays the innocent kind of child-like play, one who deliberately puts on a child av to gross people out and make them feel uncomfortable that he might be justifying age-play (that's the detestable Baba Yamamoto) and then scores of actual ageplayers -- and indeed here, the question is definitely "What's in it for Daddy?"

Notice how we always hear the one-sided account about all this lovely child-like ageplay of someone playing the role of a 10th year old. So...why are there also people playing the role of 40-year-old Dad? Huh? Seriously, this stuff is all completely phony, suspect, propagandistic and contemptible.

Vargas, I'm happy to muster all the strength I can for moral outrage in SL. There's plenty to be outraged about, and so far I have little company. More will be along soon!

:unable to distinguish symbol from subject, fiction from fact and thought from deed. Like a good child of engsoc, you're more than willing to punish thoughtcrime.

Symbol, fiction, thought -- these things all affect deeds. They morally degenerate, corrupt, and undermine the soul. They are damaging. Thought-crime *is* crime in a 3-D world where you can very realistically act it out. That's why I think when you cheat on your spouse in SL, you really do cheat on your spouse. Don't whitewash it. It's cheating, in just as real a way as if you went to a motel with a co-worker behind your wife's back. The moral dimension, the mental dimension, is very real in human beings and SL is a machine that helps amplify it.

Just as the wife if she *feels* cheated on or if she is "less hurt" because it is virtual. If anything, she is more hurt because she knows that her hubby can present himself in an ideal way in which he is not in RL.

<"No ... combining sexual activities of any kind with underage avatars."

Desmond, you've worked on that wording considerably over the months. I'm fairly certain you originally used the word "ageplay". Even now, your wording leaves it unclear whether you mean people who are underage that have avatars, or "underage avatars," child avatars which have adult typists. And no doubt you've left that deliberately ambigious.

Jellin Pico

>>3) Many people all over the world have alcoholic or drug addicted or abusive parents. That doesn't entitle them to be assholes to other people; it goesn't give them a blank check to engage in morally reprehensible "ageplay" simulating child molestation. This faulty reasoning is absolutey suspect.especially< if it lets you feel outraged and superior about something, nothing will ever chage your mind.

Jellin Pico

Hmm a big chucnk of my response was cut out of that it looks like, so I'll repeat what I said just in case


What I find morally reprehensable is your bald accusation that I engage in sexual ageplay when I've said quite clearly I do not.

But I'm not surprised really. I've come to know that when you make your mind up about something, >especially< if it lets you feel outraged and superior about something, nothing will ever chage your mind.

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