Hobos and Habbo

Philip Linden scheduled an office hour the other day -- you can find him doing that unexpectedly on his "first life" profile. I camped the spawn with a group of other residents, some very old, some very new, and we had a very interesting conversation.

It was refreshingly free of that kind of sympering to Lindens and attempts to silence other residents with reprimands that you find in almost every other Linden encounter -- something about Philip's presence achieves that.

While we were waiting for the King to spawn, we had a vigorous argument among ourselves which he then later tuned into. So I've included that in the transcript to follow up on some of my past articles.

[13:56] You: Hi, camping the spawn are you?
[14:01] Retsel Gausman: hi
[14:01] Sergey Wollongong: hi
[14:03] Retsel Gausman: sergey could you tell me how to get a ride on a balloon tour
[14:04] Sergey Wollongong: sit in it and click somewhere - but i think there is a manual there
[14:31] Dirk Talamasca: Hi Hi Prok : )
[14:39] You: hi Dirk
[14:39] Dirk Talamasca: :D Hiya Prok. Doin okay?
[14:39] You: what brings you to the spawn camp today?
[14:40] Wrestling Hulka is Offline
[14:40] Dirk Talamasca: Well .. opening an OI and I am going to SLViews on Thursday.. Kind of wanted to get Phil's take on a few things
[14:40] You: if you are going to SL Views, why come to this?
[14:41] You: what are you opening an OI for, and is this one of those ones with the regapp?
[14:41] Dirk Talamasca: Because who knows what will take place between now and then.
[14:41] Dirk Talamasca: Yes it is
[14:41] You: is this for Dreamland?
[14:41] Dirk Talamasca: No, hell no. Have been out of Dreamland for over half a year now
[14:42] You: that's what I thought
[14:42] You: you have your own business now right?
[14:42] Dirk Talamasca: Yes
[14:42] Keely Lawson is Offline
[14:42] Drago Shan is Online
[14:42] Dirk Talamasca: And I am opening an OI because current offering by LL and others don't address what new residents need to learn
[14:43] You: I oppose LL handing out windfalls of newbie traffic like this to certain select busineses
[14:43] You: and only those who have programmers to do this regapp
[14:43] You: I think they should allow advertising of services in regular welcome areas and accept that market and volunteer forces will take care of these areas
[14:43] Dirk Talamasca: Anyone can do it really.. It is not that hard
[14:44] You: if a business thinks they have customers, let them get them not by scooping out of the general LL newbie sign-up flow
[14:44] You: well it's more the principle of the thing, I certainly wouldn't bother, even if it had 3 steps
[14:44] You: most people will come to www.secondlife.com
[14:44] You: I get more newbies than I know what to do with merely from having a blog andf being int he newb
[14:44] You: news
[14:44] You: but I don't think that having windfall giveaway slike this is good for business
[14:45] You: I'd love to see their retention figures as opposed to regular infohubs
[14:45] Dirk Talamasca: Well the thing is retention.. that is bottom line with us.. If we can increase retention.. and I am confident that we can, it is good for everyone in second life
[14:45] Savannah Glimmer: Prok it might surprise you to learn we are doing this to improve training, not as a business.
[14:45] You: I've invested a lot of time and money in developing an infohub that I do a lot of work at, and recruit volunteers for
[14:45] You: gosh can it be that I do it to improve training and help newbies too?
[14:45] You: it's not a business, I've only lost money on it
[14:45] Savannah Glimmer: yes itis
[14:45] Savannah Glimmer: but we dont make money on our OI
[14:45] You: it's wrong to constantly pick and chose select pals and throw them the newbies stream
[14:46] You: let market forces and people who are GOOD AT NON_PROFITS captuer the newbie stream naturally
[14:46] You: not giveaways
[14:46] Savannah Glimmer: Its not wrong if the people selected all share the same goal of wanting to improve the newbie experience.
[14:46] You: Nobody makes money on an OI, and that's why the Lindens should sell advertising there'
[14:46] Savannah Glimmer: lol
[14:46] You: Savanaah, you are truly naive if you think all the OIS are good newbie helpers and merely altruistic
[14:46] You: Azure Islands is using it to sell land
[14:46] You: Dreamland is selling land
[14:46] Savannah Glimmer: I do not think that at all.
[14:46] You: this is about sales
[14:46] You: NMC is using it to sell rental services too
[14:47] Savannah Glimmer: Thats why we are wanting to improve the situation.
[14:47] You: You actually think the Pond isn't about business?
[14:47] You: please
[14:47] Dirk Talamasca: This is about getting users to STAY
[14:47] Savannah Glimmer: lol
[14:47] You: but there's nothing wrong with selling land
[14:47] You: um, the Lindens do it?
[14:47] You: hello?
[14:47] You: it's not like it's a dirty and unclean act sanctified only by Lindens?
[14:47] Savannah Glimmer: Dont put words in my mouth Prokofy. We simply are offering better tutorials and an overall good experience. I dont see fault in that.
[14:47] You: Try to get customers for your altruistic fantasies on your own steam
[14:47] You: then why get a special windfall?
[14:47] Khamon Fate: Thanks
[14:47] You: which OI are you representing?
[14:48] Dirk Talamasca: Our own
[14:48] You: well why do you get to have part of the newbie stream for your land sales?
[14:48] You: hello????
[14:48] Savannah Glimmer: what land sales?
[14:48] You: I want newbies streams too! so which Linden dick do I suck for that?
[14:48] You: Dirk is selling land, no?
[14:48] Dirk Talamasca: I am not generating land sales
[14:48] You: and you are selling...what?
[14:48] Savannah Glimmer: lol
[14:48] You: the Metaverse?
[14:48] Jarod Godel: Look at me! I'm sitting in a Victorian chair
[14:49] You: well gosh Dirk, that's really logical
[14:49] Dirk Talamasca: Nothing on the OI contains anything about my land sales at all
[14:49] Jarod Godel: I'm the queen of England.
[14:49] You: I mean, just because the OI itself isn't a profit-venture in itself
[14:49] You: doesn't mean that it's not part of your business
[14:49] You: it's branded, it exposes newbies to your brand
[14:49] You: my God you can't be serious
[14:49] You: trying to pretend that's about the Salvation Army and soup kitchens
[14:49] Dirk Talamasca: I can be very serious : )
[14:49] Savannah Glimmer: Prok I see you writing on concierge all the time and I believe you take oppostion to any view of anyone. So I am not taking your comments too strongly.
[14:49] You: you are there to sell land
[14:49] You: and that's a noble pursuit
[14:49] You: but then everybody should get a chunk of newbies for such noble pursuits
[14:49] You: not just this select gang
[14:50] You: I can post and posture with the best of you on newbie altruism
[14:50] You: I have subsidized newbie stuff galore
[14:50] Dirk Talamasca: No, I am there to retain users inworld so you can rent land so merchants can sell goods so new residents can bring competition into sl with new thoughts and creations
[14:50] You: and I don't get Linden newbie stream hands outs : )
[14:50] You: um Dirk, why should YOU get to retain newbies to rent YOUR land out? hello?
[14:50] You: this is just not a normal free market
[14:50] Dirk Talamasca: It is good for ALL of us
[14:50] You: it's chaibolism
[14:50] You: no that's utter bullshit
[14:50] You: it's good for YOU
[14:51] You: so let's make that good equally accessible, shall we?
[14:51] Savannah Glimmer: lol
[14:51] You: let's all get a rotating piece of newbie streaming eh?
[14:51] You: why should only YOU get it
[14:51] You: only programmers of regapps and Linden dick suckers?
[14:51] You: hello?
[14:51] Savannah Glimmer: dirk you really can't explain a skydive to someone who has never jumped.
[14:51] You: I mean, not to put too fine a point on it
[14:51] You: since we're in PG
[14:51] You: Jarod can abuse report me
[14:51] Dirk Talamasca: Prok. I do not RENT land. You do and I send users to you all the time. I know you run a good biz and are fair. I do the right thing, not just what is right for me either
[14:52] You: um you sell land then? excuse me!
[14:52] You: I call it "renting"
[14:52] You: there
[14:52] You: that's what we are
[14:52] You: see my title
[14:52] Dirk Talamasca: Yes, I sell or lease land.. In other words my residents can resell the land.. I do not rent it.. You do and when I am asked about renting I send users to you
[14:52] You: Dirk, I don't care WHAt you do
[14:53] You: you have a bUSINESS
[14:53] Jarod Godel: I have a Life Account. I'm a tenant with "special priveledges"
[14:53] You: and you got a windfall
[14:53] Jarod Godel: wink wink
[14:53] You: and that's not a level playing field or a free market
[14:53] Khamon Fate: I could rent every square millimeter of Slate. People ask almost every day. It gets on my nerves sometimes when I'm a tired Khamon.
[14:53] You: they need to end that sort of bullshit
[14:53] Dirk Talamasca: I even inform premium users that they can donate their 512 to your group to receive a bit of a discount
[14:53] You: gosh Dirk thanks for the free ads
[14:53] Dirk Talamasca: Now if I did not do that, how would I even know you offered that?
[14:53] You: but it can't offset the generic problem here which is not "about" you
[14:53] Khamon Fate: Speak as Yoda we should. Drives Philip crazy it does.
[14:53] You: it's about feting and non-market forces
[14:53] Jarod Godel: You think you're som kind of jedi or something?
[14:54] You: Lindens need to have an OPEN bidding system
[14:54] Khamon Fate: That's because it's a game Prokofy.
[14:54] You: not windfall contracts like Russia
[14:54] Khamon Fate: For all the diatribing and BOGing, the Lindens are just playing a game.
[14:54] You: what is BOGing?
[14:54] Jarod Godel: It's called Scarcity.
[14:54] Khamon Fate: It's their toy world and we're their NPCs
[14:54] You: oh ok
[14:54] Jarod Godel: Scarcity, the game of boredom.
[14:55] Khamon Fate: It's your new favourite Official Linden Blog term.
[14:55] You: right right
[14:55] You: Daniel called it that
[14:55] You: forgot
[14:55] Jarod Godel: Kelly Linden called me Old School once.
[14:55] You: does she still work here?
[14:55] You: so many Lindens have gone over the wall.
[14:55] Jarod Godel: fuck if i know
[14:55] You: it's like my parish.
[14:55] Khamon Fate: She's a he and yes he does.
[14:55] Dirk Talamasca: thought kelly was a he
[14:55] You: don't know him
[14:56] Khamon Fate: But he doesn't host office hours as they weren't "a good use of his time."
[14:56] You: I imagine not
[14:56] Jarod Godel: Kelly can't work up the care to pick a sex.
[14:56] You: the ones making the donuts have to stay at the grill
[14:56] Jarod Godel: it's too much like work for him/her/it
[14:56] Khamon Fate: Kelly's always been a boy.
[14:56] Dirk Talamasca: Hi Philip!
[14:56] You: Yes I understand that, it's hard working to keep up one gender all thetime.
[14:56] You: Hi Philip
[14:56] Savannah Glimmer: Hi Philip
[14:56] Philip Linden: hi all, this is adreanne, philip's assistant
[14:56] Khamon Fate: Don't you remember when he tried to fix that crashing problem of flying into Slate from Teal
[14:56] Dirk Talamasca: OoO I want an adreanne too
[14:57] Philip Linden: i wanted to let you guys know that Philip is running about 5 mins late
[14:57] You: Just pretend to be Philip
[14:57] Philip Linden: but will be here soon
[14:57] Jarod Godel: Big meeting?
[14:57] Khamon Fate: Yeah we do that all the time.
[14:57] Philip Linden: no, no one wants me pretending ;)
[14:57] Dirk Talamasca: :D
[14:57] Eggy Lippmann is Online
[14:57] Dirk Talamasca: LOL
[14:57] You: usually Khamon pretends
[14:57] You: it works well
[14:57] Khamon Fate: Lindens don't show up for 1/2 their hours so we just elect someone to answer the questions.
[14:57] Philip Linden: hahahha
[14:57] Jarod Godel: On the Internet, no one known you're an Adreane
[14:57] Philip Linden: nice to see you all...Philip will be here soon
[14:57] You: KhamPhil, explain about the OI windfall contracts please!
[14:57] Dirk Talamasca: Nice to meet you as well : )
[14:58] You: I can give you a transcript of the discussion up to this point Adreanne
[14:58] You: but it's ummmm not PG
[14:58] Khamon Fate: I answered townhall questions for Philip for three days in a forum thread.
[14:58] Khamon Fate: They were funny. Happy Days.
[14:58] You: you're good Khamon you're an old timer
[14:58] Philip Linden: hahahaha, too funny
[14:58] Jarod Godel: There's a discussion? I was told Philip was handing out hard candy.
[14:58] You: no that's at Gaia
[14:58] You: you're in the wrong game
[14:58] Khamon Fate: It was all and there
[14:59] Philip Linden: Hi!
[14:59] Philip Linden: It is Philip
[14:59] Philip Linden: I have returned!!
[14:59] You: Hi really Philip
[14:59] Dirk Talamasca: Hi Philip :D
[14:59] Savannah Glimmer: Hi Philip
[14:59] Jarod Godel: You can al you want bit doesn't mean anything.
[14:59] Sergey Wollongong: hi philip
[14:59] Philip Linden: Please no valleywag.
[14:59] Philip Linden: :)
[14:59] You: hehe
[14:59] You: Happy Birthday! will you be still sitting in that chair here in Waterhead in 4 years?
[15:00] Khamon Fate: Who else is not really them?
[15:00] Philip Linden: OK so we aren't all using voice, eh?
[15:00] Jarod Godel: Federated Media perhaps? is SL "People ready," Philip?
[15:00] Philip Linden: Let's stay with text.
[15:00] You: oh well I could call on Skype
[15:00] Khamon Fate: voice ha ha ha
[15:00] Philip Linden: That would be cool prok.
[15:00] Philip Linden: Wow you guys are the oldbies today.
[15:00] You: I need to get the first look as everybody is advertising "voice enabled" as a real estate feature now
[15:00] Philip Linden: jarod khamon, prok.
[15:00] Philip Linden: Cool.
[15:00] You: Im' a midbie
[15:00] Dirk Talamasca: Didn't think about that Phil sorry about that
[15:00] Philip Linden: OK what should we talk about?
[15:00] Khamon Fate is glad to not be a landlord
[15:01] You: We were having a vigorous debate about the OIs
[15:01] Khamon Fate: Tell us what you were going to say at the b'day celebration
[15:01] You: I took the position that LL shouldn't hand out windfall contracts of the newbie stream like that, but should have an open bid
[15:01] Philip Linden: Cool.... what is the debate?
[15:01] Jarod Godel: I just wanted to say that Zero Linden's doing a bang-up job.
[15:01] Philip Linden: How do you mean an open bid?
[15:01] Philip Linden: I think that is what we should do.
[15:01] Khamon Fate: Yes We Love Icehouse We Do
[15:01] You: Dirk thinks it's about altruism, I say all the OIS are in it for business, and that's ok, it's a good thing, so open up that good thing to all businesses
[15:01] Philip Linden: Thx khamon will pass along.
[15:01] You: that anyone who wants a cut of the newbie stream can sign up for it if they can take it
[15:02] Khamon Fate: What's an OIS?
[15:02] You: if they have the staff and facilities
[15:02] You: it would be good to know if the retention rates improved, and how, and for what reasons
[15:02] Dirk Talamasca: And I think there can be a much better, quicker and more educational system that benefits all residents because retaining residents is in fact good for all of us
[15:02] Philip Linden: Here is what I think we should do with the OI's:
[15:02] Khamon Fate: Open Information Sponges
[15:02] Philip Linden: let anyone signup,
[15:02] Philip Linden: and measure success, and sort the presented OIs by performance.
[15:02] Khamon Fate: and let us type in our own last names
[15:02] Philip Linden: So it would work like adwords... you get rotated in and you stay if you have good performance.
[15:03] You: the traffic to the information hubs developed by residents has cut in half since you started to siphon off to the businesses
[15:03] Philip Linden: does that make sense?
[15:03] Savannah Glimmer: And success should be measured in improved training and increased retention, yes?
[15:03] Khamon Fate: Orientation Infohubs?
[15:03] Dirk Talamasca: That is fair enough I think
[15:03] Philip Linden: Yes Savahnah
[15:03] Jarod Godel: A background rating system?
[15:03] You: and that means those of us volunteering and investing in infohubs just got cut out of the stream in a sense, but there's still enough to work with, so it would be good to know the retention rates
[15:03] Khamon Fate: Philip how *do* y'all measure retention?
[15:03] Philip Linden: What would you guys suggest as to measuring retention?
[15:04] Khamon Fate: I would first suggest purging unused accounts.
[15:04] Jarod Godel: Logins.
[15:04] You: Sounds like not a level playing field, but social Darwinism, Philip, you first give the windfall contracts to favoured sons like Azure Island, then after they've got the leg up say, oh, the rest of you have to pass through my rigid performance test LOL
[15:04] You: why do you do stuff like that? I mean, does it even *work* for you for your own goals?
[15:04] Jarod Godel: If someone logs in every two weeks they can be considered a user.
[15:04] Philip Linden: Nope we just tried to get as many as we could to start. Do you have one you want to add?
[15:04] Khamon Fate wants to be a user and save the wora'uld
[15:04] Philip Linden: My understanding is that Ryan is adding folks as soon as they are ready.
[15:05] You: I'm in one called "The Ross Infohub" which is your last project of that type, called "the user developed infohubs"
[15:05] Dirk Talamasca: I think it would be rather obvious that you'd measure more active users that stay.. and they will stay and be more active if you teach them things that older residents just take for granted. I think we can do that in less than an hour and I bet we can even meet you goal of 40 minutes
[15:05] Jarod Godel: How do blogging services measure active users?
[15:05] You: and there are 12 others or so like that
[15:05] Dirk Talamasca: teach*
[15:05] Khamon Fate: I'ts possible to build a registration site and point it directly to the Ross hub.
[15:05] You: it should not require having to code a regapp however
[15:05] Khamon Fate: Well it does only if you want the business.
[15:05] You: you are handing off a percentage of your signups from www.secondlife.com to the selected list now, they aren't just getting it from their regapp
[15:06] Philip Linden: It seemed to make sense to get started, even with the coding reqmt, though I see your point prok
[15:06] Khamon Fate: Teaching shouldn't mean having to paint my own room and hang my own boards; but the job has to be done.
[15:06] SarahWearer22 Boram: hello whats going on here, is this a secret meeting area?
[15:06] Philip Linden: Yeah we need to make it easier.
[15:06] You: Khamon I hire scripters and pay them
[15:06] Jarod Godel: Sarah, no. it's public.
[15:06] Philip Linden: Sarah these are my office hours.... welcome.
[15:06] Philip Linden: its public.
[15:06] Khamon Fate: No you don't Philip. Where in the handbook does it say that LL owes a virtual business owner easy access to newbies?
[15:06] Philip Linden: Hi Hank!
[15:07] SarahWearer22 Boram: hello Philip
[15:07] Hank Ramos: Howdy :)
[15:07] Khamon Fate: Why does that have to be a rule of this new and better society.
[15:07] You: well if they give it out, Khamon, they could use basic principles of open and fair bidding
[15:07] SarahWearer22 Boram: Philip can u give me some advice?
[15:07] Philip Linden: My goal is to make the newbie experience better as fast as possible.
[15:07] Khamon Fate: Invest the money and time to build a regapp Prokofy if you want to reap the profits.
[15:07] Philip Linden: First priority.
[15:07] Philip Linden: Sure Sarah.
[15:07] Dirk Talamasca: I think it is important to have an API that requires coding as well as one that can be used right out of the box so to speak.. The reason being is that certain portals are going to be bringing employees into Sl via the app and they want to measure certain metrics by doing so
[15:07] You: Khamon, the newbie stream is being given not off the regapp, but off secondlife.com that's my point
[15:07] Savannah Glimmer: I feel our OI will improve the total experience Prok. We are focused on training and support.
[15:07] You: it would be one thing if anyone with a regapp got anyone they liked and took care of them
[15:08] You: but they are accessing what is a public utility
[15:08] You: of course I realize few see it that way : )
[15:08] Jarod Godel: If an API requires coding on the web, someone will offer up an open, free "shrinkwrap" version.
[15:08] SarahWearer22 Boram: erm ive been on second life since 2006, but everywhere i go no one likes me? even if i say hi they come up with some nasty remark?
[15:08] Khamon Fate: You should do that Jarod
[15:08] Khamon Fate: You're bored right now.
[15:08] SarahWearer22 Boram: how can i make people like me on second life?
[15:08] Khamon Fate: Work for Prok.
[15:08] Philip Linden: The good news is that the early results suggest that the non-linden OI experiences are outperforming LL.
[15:08] Jarod Godel: Show me a web 2.0 API that you can't embed into a web page by cut'n'pasting one line of JavaScript.
[15:08] Khamon Fate: That's to be expected really.
[15:09] You: Philip, what's the business plan for LL after you open-source? will only islands be told to go and get their own host? or mainland too? will you keep the mainland? and will you have some of your Lindens spin off and form user-friendly hosting services? or how will it be done?
[15:09] Philip Linden: I'm sorry to hear that Sarah! So many nice people around.
[15:09] Philip Linden: ususally.
[15:09] Khamon Fate: Does it encourage y'all to sell off the Mainland and get out of the managment business altogether?
[15:09] Khamon Fate: Sorry, I don't type as quickly as Prokofy.
[15:09] Khamon Fate: ha ha ha
[15:09] Dirk Talamasca: We will help to remedy that Sarah..
[15:09] Philip Linden: prok I think that we can always charge for services like having a server attached to the main grid.
[15:10] Philip Linden: As to selling the mainland... I think we will keep owning servers as well.
[15:10] Jarod Godel: So LL becomes the Yahoo of the metaverse
[15:10] Jarod Godel: Host and indexing/directory?
[15:10] Philip Linden: But there will be multiple server operators as well.
[15:10] You: Jeff from Amazon gave a presentation about his 10 cents an hour servers, but I think only that service combined with amazon's SP3 could handle the persistence and on-demand service of hosting a VW
[15:10] Philip Linden: And people will choose their hosting operator.
[15:10] SarahWearer22 Boram: nice photo of your first life, i like the background where was that taken Philip??
[15:10] Khamon Fate: Grids will come along that guarantee uptime though and don't cancel accounts for any or no reason.
[15:10] Philip Linden: Actually Amazons servers right now are too slow, last I checked.
[15:10] Khamon Fate: What's going to be the attraction of attaching to this grid?
[15:11] Philip Linden: There isn't enough speed per process to run an SL gserver.
[15:11] You: I wasn't clear on the technical details of course, but what would you envision and off-the-shelf new hosting set-up to cost? to be? $8000 for just a server and a T-1 line? Will you have some businesses that offer these packages you will recommend? like the headphones?
[15:11] Jarod Godel: Yeah, but Virtual Servers are getting cheep.
[15:11] Khamon Fate: As is bandwidth
[15:11] Jarod Godel: I've got a nice virtual linux box for like $40 a month.
[15:11] Philip Linden: Right Khamon... there will be different offerings.
[15:11] Khamon Fate: We're using a Metro-E line now for less than the T1 used to cost
[15:11] You: well maybe you dno't need fast for every kind of virtual world activity?
[15:11] Dirk Talamasca: How about people and interaction? I mean you can buy your own region and sit on it alone all day but you don't do you?
[15:12] Jarod Godel: I would.
[15:12] Philip Linden: I think that if SL is the biggest, the tendency to want to be on the biggest grid will give us a good long term business.
[15:12] You: Philip when do you plan on ceasing the printing of mainland?
[15:12] Philip Linden: But there will certainly be others!
[15:12] Philip Linden: No plans to stop prok.
[15:12] Khamon Fate: That's true too. If you have the place mostly built and downloaded with the client, the rendering speed will be much faster overall.
[15:12] Philip Linden: We are still doing a good job getting servers up and running I think.
[15:12] Khamon Fate: Must jet, thanks for hosting Philip
[15:13] Philip Linden: We'll be better off with competitors... they will help us get better faster.
[15:13] Hank Ramos: Any plans to make connecting to outside web services easier? Have to use outside scripting solutions to pipe in language translations.
[15:13] Khamon Fate: See you next week!
[15:13] You: what does it mean when no one, not even Lindens, can span the world anymore? It's no longer possible for me even to go through all the 60 servers where I have land now, it's just too far apart and growing too fast
[15:13] Philip Linden: TY Khamon
[15:13] You: who will watch the world? and how?
[15:13] Philip Linden: I think that is a good think, actually, Prok.
[15:13] Philip Linden: Since I really think that local rules need to prevail for us to be as stable as possible.
[15:13] You: well but your community dept has this thing called NOC I think that plans to monitor "grid health"
[15:13] You: but what about "customer experience health"
[15:13] Philip Linden: Yes that is true, for the servers we run.
[15:14] Philip Linden: But longterm there will be others.
[15:14] You: will you be sad?
[15:14] Philip Linden: Sad when others are running servers?
[15:14] Dirk Talamasca: Why be sad?
[15:14] You: that you aren't running them or even in touch with them
[15:14] You: or do you feel you have sufficiently left your mark
[15:15] Philip Linden: I don't think I'll be sad... but I suppose it is a good question. I'll tell you when we get there.
[15:15] Philip Linden: Here is a good question for you guys:
[15:15] Philip Linden: What should we call this whole idea of building an orientation experience that can get signups to SL.com?
[15:16] Philip Linden: I feel like it needs a clear name that explains the idea.
[15:16] You: well don't use the word "retention" that sounds like you know, bladders.
[15:16] Dirk Talamasca: I would be pretty happy that it has manifested so that so many people can interact and learn and communicate in new ways..
[15:16] You: Sustaining the SL Community
[15:17] Philip Linden: Yes but what about something that suggests what it is... like "Registration Portal"?
[15:17] Philip Linden: Like so I can say in a sentence at a town hall... I hope many people will build a XXX
[15:17] Dirk Talamasca: We are not calling it that already?
[15:17] Astarte Artaud: No cos that nmmeans something t step through quickly
[15:18] You: User experience improvement portal
[15:18] You: or streamlined portals or something
[15:18] Dirk Talamasca: Registration Portal is short and to the point.. Run with it
[15:18] You: portals is already a word that sounds like Star Trek
[15:18] Hank Ramos: That's transporter
[15:18] You: o0h ok
[15:19] Hank Ramos: Mabe something that suggests a transformation?
[15:19] You: The Virtualizer
[15:19] You: lol
[15:19] Jarod Godel: I think most businesses in SL have built XXX.
[15:19] Jarod Godel: That' what got you in trouble with germany.
[15:19] You: well Philip can you say whether this system *is* retaining users?
[15:19] Philip Linden: You mean the new ones prok?
[15:19] You: yes this last round?
[15:20] Philip Linden: well they are retaining more than before... early data.
[15:20] Dirk Talamasca: They are still pretty new. Probably not enough data yet to make a call
[15:20] Philip Linden: I need to get Ryan to publish some data there.
[15:20] You: even 2 percent improvement is an enormous change
[15:20] You: like when you do junk mailings
[15:20] Philip Linden: Welcome Vma... have a seat.
[15:20] You: it's because people laid on staff, many who had not laid on staff
[15:20] Vma Tenk: hello everyone
[15:21] Philip Linden: I think more than 2%. Usage hours per new users are up very substantially in some cases.
[15:21] Jarod Godel: hi
[15:21] Savannah Glimmer: That's great news
[15:21] You: Philip, what does it mean that there are more Europeans, yet Americans logging in more hours than ever, especially females? I wonder if this is people working harder and longer hours because of the economic downturn.
[15:21] Philip Linden: You think so Prok? Have you visited these new OIs?
[15:21] You: yes I have
[15:21] Philip Linden: That is useful data.
[15:21] You: I did podcasts on them
[15:21] You: some of them had 600 traffic, some had 3000
[15:22] You: some dropped out already
[15:22] Philip Linden: Interesting question prok.
[15:22] You: some had staff, some didnd't
[15:22] Philip Linden: your guess as good as mine
[15:22] You: nothing has the traffic of the Calleta hobo thing
[15:22] Philip Linden: what is calleta hobo?
[15:22] You: which shows you that asynchronous interactive content is just as much key to retention and traffic as live greeters
[15:22] You: well you know, the people who made the Hobo camp? like a train yard?
[15:22] You: it's one of the user made infohubs like Ross, only in Calletta
[15:23] You: and it has like burning trash cans you can pick up and tuna can rollerskates and fun stuff ilke that
[15:23] Vma Tenk: Philip My account premium was blocked without no reason has 15 days
[15:23] You: it's near the railyard for the Linden train on the atoll continent
[15:23] Vma Tenk: it has 15 days that I wait a reply of the support plus mine ticket is not answered
[15:23] Dirk Talamasca: :: makes note tuna cans great for retention rates :::
[15:23] Philip Linden: Vma, I can try and look into that, if you will send me an email.
[15:24] You: well you know what I mean, it has free stuff, activities, orientation to click on
[15:24] Philip Linden: got it prok
[15:24] You: some people like to browse in a store and don't like the sales help asking them if they need help, you know, you need both kinds
[15:24] Philip Linden: right
[15:24] Jarod Godel: Philip, how do you see SL competing with MMOG's like Habbo Hotel in the next year?
[15:25] Dirk Talamasca: I think SL is gonna kick them in the dirt
[15:25] Philip Linden: I think the reasons why people come here are so different than habbo... i don't even really see it as a competition.
[15:25] You: no I don't mean Habo Hotel
[15:25] Philip Linden: Habbo is a very young crowd too
[15:25] You: I mean like tramps, you know hobos?
[15:26] You: no I don't mean Habbo at all
[15:26] Hank Ramos: We need a player-run system that makes it somehow easier to find things in SL. There is so much now, it's mind blowing.
[15:26] You: you know old guys sitting around a burning trash can? in a rail yard?
[15:26] Jarod Godel: So, SL's target audience is 25+, would you say?
[15:26] You: you know, Neal Cassady?
[15:26] Philip Linden: Yes I understand Prok... I was answering Jarods question
[15:26] Philip Linden: about habbo
[15:26] You: ohhhhh ROFL
[15:26] You: got it!
[15:26] Philip Linden: our average age is 32
[15:27] Jarod Godel: Very interesting. Is that mostly male or female?
[15:27] Philip Linden: Hank I agree about search... working on it now, have some interesting internal prototypes
[15:27] Hank Ramos: Philip: any plans to increase http capability so we can do things like web page scraping for translators and such through LSL without having to go through outside web server scripts?
[15:27] Philip Linden: 43% female.
[15:27] Jarod Godel: Philip, thanks.
[15:27] Philip Linden: good question hank i don't know.
[15:28] Dirk Talamasca: I think Habbo and IMVU etc are a bit frightening from a mature user standpoint because it is so childlike almost anime
[15:28] You: I found Gaiai to be creepy that way with this little dinky avatar
[15:28] Jarod Godel: Hank, Zero or Babbage Linden might be able to field that for you. Once Mono gets put in place, we can break out of LSL.
[15:28] You: but I figure if Reuben went over there it has to be sticky and worth it
[15:29] You: Philip have you seen the Metaverse Road Map and do you think the four pillars of lifelogging, virtual worlds, augmentation, and mirror realities are the way to comprehend and plan for the Metaverse?
[15:29] Philip Linden: I haven't used Gaia
[15:29] You: sorry I'm a fast typist I'm just going ot put out questions and you can answer or not
[15:29] Hans Baldwin: Habbo and IMVU have a different targetgroup I think. I just wonder how console based virtual worlds like Sony's home will do compared with SL
[15:29] Dirk Talamasca: Will we be seeing improvements with regards to avatar appearance and perhaps being able to import from other 3d apps now that we have some of that support in place for sculpties?
[15:29] Philip Linden: Hmm.... good question prok. I haven't read it enough to answer.
[15:29] Jarod Godel: Philip, has SL worked any with the OLPC group?
[15:29] You: Gaia is sticky but not addictive somehow, it's like yahoo bookworm and neo pets put together
[15:29] Philip Linden: send me the link so i remember to study
[15:29] Philip Linden: OLPC?
[15:30] Jarod Godel: One Laptop Per Child.
[15:30] You: I don't dare tab down my game now to find that PDF file but it's on Twitter
[15:30] You: or I will email later it's Jerry Paffendorf's thing
[15:30] Philip Linden: Ah.. yes we are talking to the one laptop folks about getting SL running.
[15:30] You: but lots of other geeks were on it, whichi s of course one reason why I critique it
[15:30] Jarod Godel: Cool.
[15:31] Philip Linden: Dirk... we aren't doing any new work on importers right now.
[15:31] You: Why do you like the one laptop stuff Philip?
[15:31] Philip Linden: But I agree we should. Also would be very useful open source work.
[15:31] Dirk Talamasca: good enough
[15:31] Hans Baldwin: wow! That would be amazing! I did not realise that laptop would have powerfull enough 3D hardware to run a virtual world
[15:31] Philip Linden: As would a basic import/export to file for your own stuff... I would love to see someone do that.
[15:32] Savannah Glimmer: I'm on a laptop and SL runs great.
[15:32] Philip Linden: Well we can make it run better. Still.
[15:32] Savannah Glimmer: Yes I'm all for that : )
[15:32] Vma Tenk: philip could help me with my question ?
[15:33] Hans Baldwin: Savannah: I was referring to the OLPC hardware. I has very limited disk and processing specifications.
[15:33] Jarod Godel: http://laptop.org
[15:33] Philip Linden: VMA, send me an email regarding your account problem.
[15:33] marc Nomura: will we be able to solve the need for direct ip address problem in schools?
[15:33] You: I think a better use of $100 per person would be on salaries for health care worker's and women's education, I think when you isolate out programs just for children, just because they're appealling ,you forget about the rest of the context they're in.
[15:34] Savannah Glimmer: thanks Hans
[15:35] Hank Ramos: Maybe a way to include things like OLPC would be to branch out the viewer to work in varying "quality" modes or something like that, like the ability to run on a PDA for example and lesser hardware, and then to run the good stuff/interesting features on great hardware.
[15:35] Hans Baldwin: Philip, could I sak you a question about libsecondlife?
[15:35] Philip Linden: sure hans i can try to answer
[15:36] marc Nomura: i have a plethora of UK schools wanting to use SL and service providers who are doing there nut at me
[15:36] marc Nomura: with not enough ip s to go around
[15:36] Vma Tenk: Philip I already sent an email for the support I have 15 days
[15:36] Vma Tenk: I was not answered
[15:36] Vma Tenk: :(
[15:37] Philip Linden: VMA if you send me an email right now, and include your username, I will try and look into this for you.
[15:37] Hans Baldwin: thank you, How does linden view libsecondlife? My group is planning to use it very extensively for making automated avatars that can do a lot more then basic LSL. How does linden feel about these kinds of (technical) possibilities?
[15:38] Philip Linden: Sounds fine Hans... as to the codebase, we are more focused on SL open source... I am not sure what the lastest libSL looks like.
[15:38] You: Philip in the Long Now video you did you seemed to greet the concept of having no copyright, and having everything opensourced, but how do you see wealth being created and retrained, after you get through the distribution part of open source or any sort of giveaway like that?
[15:38] You: *retained
[15:38] Philip Linden: prok do you mean for users or for LL?
[15:39] You: that is, if the plan is to offer some kind of "services" can that revenue ever really replace the revenue of land sales and subscription to unique software that is proprietary?
[15:39] You: for LL itself AND for users
[15:39] You: because they are intertwined
[15:39] You: their objects can't likely stay proprietary for long once everything is opensourced
[15:40] Philip Linden: Actually, prok, I think that people will not use server operators that might copy their content without approval,
[15:40] Philip Linden: and that we can easily build tools that clearly identify when you are going to a new server operator, like the way SSH certificates work today.
[15:41] Hans Baldwin: would you say the open source SL viewer could be a better code base to build from? Are the APIs easy to use from scripted environments like python, ruby, php etc? Is the open source SL codebase buildable within a day from scratch? So many questions now ;-)
[15:41] You: but there is a considerable movement of copylefters who think that all property is theft and just want to do away with property completely, and have ephemeral creations for instances and experiences, a different valuation
[15:41] Philip Linden: I know we had people building the SL codebase within an hour or two, yes. Have you tried?
[15:42] You: so you pay skilled persons able to create ephemera over and over again I guess, it becomes not object-oriented but experience-oriented
[15:42] You: did you see that video on youtube where Google buys Second Life and then the only thing to sell are these little stored experience thingies?
[15:42] You: it's a video about the future
[15:42] Philip Linden: I don't think that all property is theft.
[15:43] Hans Baldwin: I downloaded it a couple of months ago and tried to build on a mac. I was missing loads of dependencies.
[15:43] Hans Baldwin: not sure if it improved recently?
[15:43] Philip Linden: well I know we are improving it. Try again.
[15:43] Hans Baldwin: thank you very much
[15:43] Philip Linden: Many many active open source contributors.
[15:43] Gemma Taurog: It is an interesting proposition, to add to the depth of SL, you must extend peoples experiences beyond the physical as we see it now
[15:45] Gemma Taurog: without the posibility of additional experiences, people grow bored repetition
[15:45] Philip Linden: Here is another question...
[15:45] rma Oh: Many Brazilians are having its attached accounts without reasons, also mine also were blocked
[15:45] rma Oh: So that to have support in the site? If the same it does not function.
[15:45] Philip Linden: we've been rolling out a lot of content loss fixes and stats measurements.
[15:46] rma Oh: I sent one ticket pro support makes one 14 days and I was not answered
[15:46] Philip Linden: Can anyone here give me a repro case for content loss... for example a repeatable case where you rez something and it disappears from inventory?
[15:46] Philip Linden: but doesn't show up in the world.
[15:46] You: There's definitely a major billing/payment snafu, what's happening is that Paypal payment set-ups aren't going through, even good CC set-ups aren't working, I've had that happen, many have, I think they're working on it
[15:47] Guilhem Qunhua: hi
[15:47] Dirk Talamasca: up until those started rolling out I never had a problem with my inventory, Philip.. But I mist say.. 1.7 ate about 7,000 objects from my inventory
[15:47] Philip Linden: rma... this is something you can send me an email about as well... and I will try to help.
[15:47] Dirk Talamasca: must*
[15:47] Hans Baldwin: will there be a possibility to manage your own SL servers in the near future? I am am referring to real hardware management for the clustering and tuning. Would it be possible to manage a group of say 50 people to have an enitirely independend world with no lang and full performance on a local network?
[15:47] Philip Linden: Dirk you lost 7,000 objects and they are not coming back with a cache clear or reinstall?
[15:47] Hans Baldwin: no lan=no lag
[15:48] You: I lost 3,000 too, it's sad, yes, stuff goes, and doesn't come back
[15:48] Dirk Talamasca: Not at all.. I of course know how to do that and did it several times to no avail
[15:48] Guilhem Qunhua: hi gemma
[15:48] rma Oh: Philip: ok
[15:48] You: that's why we have to think that property is no longer the way to understand our sojourn in this life, but experience.
[15:48] Savannah Glimmer: Yes I agree. It's been an increased problem since the rolling restarts.
[15:48] Hank Ramos: Nope, I can't remember losing something after rezzing like that. But my inventory is so far gone and disorganized, I'd probably never notice. lol
[15:48] Philip Linden: So wait... prok both you and dirk have logged in and found stuff to be gone?
[15:49] You: what's wacky is to log on in the morning with 17,000 in inventory, log on at lunch wtih 12,000, after dinner, 15,000 it's like "what's your best offer" lol
[15:49] You: yes it's gone
[15:49] You: builds, stuff, cards
[15:49] You: for me mainly cards and builds
[15:49] You: clear cache, reinstall, relog a zillion times
[15:49] You: gone
[15:49] Gemma Taurog: Philip, I have a repeating case of transferred items when sent in groups of only one item being delivered
[15:49] Dirk Talamasca: That is correct. I filed a support ticket immediately afterwards but it has not been opened
[15:49] Philip Linden: wait... prok... but you are saying sometimes it comes back?
[15:49] You: but it's good practice for when we must leave this Vale of Tears
[15:49] Savannah Glimmer: I've helped a few people through help group who lose items after they are rez'd.
[15:49] You: no those 3,000 or so are dead and gone
[15:49] You: but there's also a kind of Alzheimer's thing too
[15:49] Guilhem Qunhua: hola
[15:49] You: short-term memory loss of most used objects
[15:50] You: I bug reported it and Daniel Linden accepted it as an issue
[15:50] You: for the notecards anyway
[15:50] Philip Linden: Gemma can you send me an email and include your account name... I will have someone contact you to try and repro that.
[15:50] You: they are in "bad sectors"
[15:50] Gemma Taurog: thanks philip
[15:50] You: 13,888 I'm showing now; it was 17,200 this morning, it gets lighter as the day progresses
[15:50] Philip Linden: Hmm... prok and dirk how many total items do you have in inventory?
[15:50] You: the only annoying bit is that it's *most used items* -- so all the cards, houses, etc. most used
[15:50] You: I have 17,000 plus
[15:51] You: anyway you don't need to spend time on it it's a CS issue
[15:51] Dirk Talamasca: I had abour 39,700 now I am running oh.. Lemme see
[15:51] Dirk Talamasca: about 33,000
[15:51] Guilhem Qunhua: hi
[15:51] Gemma Taurog: although I don't belive it is a personal issue, only yesterday when we were involved in a large SIM rebuild, I had several items returned to me at one, but I never received them
[15:51] You: I cut might way down so that I'd have access to it more often, I stashed it around inworld like a rat
[15:51] Savannah Glimmer: My inventory keeps growing so maybe I have your items lol
[15:51] You: hahaha Savannah could be
[15:51] Guilhem Qunhua: hi
[15:51] You: what's this black plinth here on your land Philip, does that have our stuff in it?!
[15:52] Philip Linden: Don't I wish.
[15:52] Guilhem Qunhua: hola
[15:53] You: "my god it's full of stars"
[15:53] Dirk Talamasca: Paris Hilton is in there
[15:53] Philip Linden: Hah!
[15:53] You: Philip do you think Office Hours work as a system? And SL Views? Do you ever contemplate re-opening the forums?
[15:55] Philip Linden: It is hard to get a feel for how well communication like this is working, because there isn't a comparable reference.
[15:55] You: I had a more complicated question to ask about the policing and abuse reporting system, do you think that virtual worlds and their communities can't provide incentives or means for improving human behaviour, but only create tools to block the worst behaviour and give people choices what to mute or ban? is there no hope for human improvement? by other means than tools?
[15:55] Hank Ramos: On a personal note; when are the techno-color pants coming back? :) hehe
[15:55] Philip Linden: I know that with the forums, I can't begin to read them all or even close, so I would tend to not speak at all.
[15:56] Philip Linden: Hank I agree!
[15:56] You: well Philip, you're content to leave the world unviewed and let local communities run it -- why not outsource the forums or let the forums be run that way too???
[15:56] Gemma Taurog: I was also wanting to expand on Prokofy point,
[15:56] You: why are forums *different* than the world? isn't it a continuos seamless thing?
[15:57] Gemma Taurog: I work in a few SL police forces, and although you don't support any inworld forces there are issues that Linden don't wish to deal with minor issues of griefing,
[15:57] Philip Linden: forums have global moderation, where the world has local.
[15:57] Gemma Taurog: would you consider employing an inworld "police force" to police and help people when in trouble?
[15:57] Philip Linden: I've only got a couple minutes more.
[15:57] You: I definitely don't support resident based police, they are worse than the griefers, I have a hellish time keeping vigilantes and fake police out of the infohub, it's awful, they plague all the WAs
[15:57] Hank Ramos: In my mind, the forums fill the "void" when we want to interact with the SL world, but can't due to not being able to run the viewer software where we are.
[15:57] You: yes Hank good point
[15:58] Savannah Glimmer: Philip, completely off topic, I'm looking for the longest active resident in SL. Do you think that would be Steller Sunshine?
[15:58] Egil Milner: I actually have a question to toss out for everyone. I have 10 minutes to demo SL for university faculty members on Friday. Where do you think I should take them?
[15:58] You: well Philip give the forums local moderation
[15:58] Gemma Taurog: there is an issues of police in SL, although one sanctioned by Linden may be a solution
[15:58] Dirk Talamasca: Philip Robin made reference to a system that may pay residents for assisting others. Is any work being done in that direction? On the same line of questioning, if residents were to form help groups id there any chance of allowing them to use a special IM system as was in place for LiveHelp in order to handle those requests?
[15:58] You: auction off some rubrics, some headers, like I bid $1000 to run "political science" ok?
[15:58] Philip Linden: Yes that is a good point Hank. Maybe a chat only client?
[15:58] You: run the forums like sims
[15:58] You: lol
[15:59] Philip Linden: It is an interesting idea... if we had chat only clients, people could use them like local forums... stay logged into some in-world place and talk.
[15:59] Philip Linden: That would be more scalable.
[15:59] You: Jarod I can sublet you poysci for $25 a month for 10 posts
[15:59] Hank Ramos: If the SL world can be brought to more locations/hardware, there wouldn't be the need for the forums. Possibly, I don't know. Being able to interact inworld somehow, to some extent would be valuable much like using your cellphone through Yahoo or MSN to access weather, etc. .
[15:59] Philip Linden: In terms of local regulation.
[15:59] Gemma Taurog: a force that is available to all 24 hours that does not require them to approach Linden and expect to wait several days for a responce
[15:59] You: perhaps that will happen but not everybody is thrilled with voice coming as you know
[15:59] Philip Linden: Agree that this is the right direction Gemma, but SL landowners need to be able to choose or not use such police services
[16:00] Gemma Taurog: I thought you were going to involce chat bases where you could interact with LL staff or people designated by you
[16:00] Hans Baldwin: philip, how would those channels be moderated? How would access be determined? Would it be invite only?
[16:00] Philip Linden: And therefore I think they should build them, not us.
[16:00] Hank Ramos: I thought voice was great, if you use a hardware-based sound morpher. Using my own voice was disturbing in a SL sense.
[16:00] You: is the plan to make the enabling of voice capacity a fee like a tier on sims?
[16:00] You: I'm going to have some surprised customers and some will probably refund : (
[16:00] Philip Linden: I'm not sure what the pricing will be for
[16:00] Philip Linden: voice. Undecided.
[16:01] Philip Linden: OK you guys I've gotta run.
[16:01] Hank Ramos: Thanks Philip! :)
[16:01] You: thanks a lot Philip that was great
[16:01] Philip Linden: Want to writeup some of these thoughts.
[16:01] You: lots of food for thought
[16:01] You: you should do a blog!
[16:01] Gemma Taurog: Voice is an interesting idea, how ever as you can tell my group chats like this, will it actually work???
[16:01] You: your last one was Tao of Linden
[16:01] Philip Linden: Thank you for coming.
[16:01] marc Nomura: thanx for what you're doing
[16:01] You: yikes don't leave that as the last one
[16:01] Ethan Schuman: Hang on a sec, Philip
[16:01] Hans Baldwin: thank you very much. Honered to stumble in here
[16:01] Philip Linden: Yeah I agree I should blog more.
[16:01] Savannah Glimmer: Thank you Philip.
[16:02] Philip Linden: Good thought.
[16:02] Ethan Schuman: Just want a quick pic
[16:02] You: well just one blog every six months
[16:02] You: not 'more'
[16:02] Vma Tenk: Philip I send email yov
[16:02] Hank Ramos: There is the old Philip I remember! :)
[16:02] Dirk Talamasca: Take care Philip :D
[16:02] Philip Linden: thaks VMA
[16:02] Philip Linden: take care all
[16:02] Hank Ramos: *poof* and our leader is gone
[16:03] Ethan Schuman: Curses, I wanted a pic with him.

Comments

[Frankie Antonioni]

Well if I could talk to Philip Linden, here is what I would say.

#1 we need rating like on ebay, when ever you buy something from somebody, you would then give that person a good rating or a bad rating. Divid into purchase, rent or gift. If you buy something, that would be purchase.
If you pay a rent box, that is considered rent. If you put some money in a tip jar, or give somebody money, that is counted as a gift, and this includes buying sex.

#2 We need a central bank and a record of all property. Each mainland should have its own central bank branch, the islands would be given the option of having a central bank branch, or go with out one.

By entering a person's name in the property search field, you will be able to find out how much land they have, and the value of that land. There should also be away to mortgage the land.

#3 There should be a police force and a way for people to contact the police. I suggest that each police officer be paid about 20 L$ an hour, with higher pay for those that have been on the force longer. There also should be jails for those that have commited crimes in SL.

Those that commited theft or fraud, should be locked away in jail, and have all their alts locked away with them. If they shoul creat any more alts, those will also be locked up. They will only be released when they have payed back their victems.

[Cherowolf Redgrave]

Hey Prokofy. This is in response to Frankie's post:

# 1 - No. I have yet to see any real long term value to the rating systems. However I have not been in SL that long so I will allow myself to be corrected on that point.

# 2 - No. Banks come and go just like other SL people and businesses. No one needs to have my info other than LL and that is a whole other issue.

BTW there are banks that do land mortgages in SL (or at least there were the last time I looked).

# 3 - Yes. But they would have to be governed by laws that everyone understands otherwise we would have rogue cops abusing their power and us with no power to stop them.

Thanks Prokofy for posting this meeting. It was interesting.

[Prokofy Neva]

#1. Ratings systems are either gamed or complicated or not used or all of the above. The fact that people always want the company to put it in, but never get it off the ground successfully themselves lets you know that it's hard, unworkable, or not wanted. So leave it out, unless you put it in yourself and get the support for it.

2. I think the Lindens should offer the option to put Lindens in a savings account so to speak that earns interest, why not? They function as a central bank already. but they shouldn't be making loans and mortgages, they have no staff time for that. That's an inworld business, and it should be open to free market forces like all business.

It's too much to keep a record of every single land transaction, especially given how much land dealers have to sell land in and out of groups just to move it around. I would be for keeping a record of all auction sales, that seems doable -- searchable, with a memory, not 5 days. Again, someone among the residents could do this, it's been done for a time, by Tiger Crossing.

3. Kids always want to play police. No resident police. You cannot have police in a society until you first have these things:

o committees of correspondence
o Constitutional Assembly
o Constitutional Drafting and Ratification
o Formation of Congress/Parliament
o Executive Branch formation subject to parliamentary review
o Civilian control of the military and police forces run by the executive branch, with congressional and judicial review
o Judicial branch, independent of executive and legislature
o civilian control boards
o police training and accountability

See, nobody wants to do the hard work of making a government that can be responsible and have accountable and non-abusive policies and armies. They just want to police stuff and kick around people they don't like.

I'm not for playing police unless you play the rest of the government, and gosh, I'm here to play store, not government, go play that with Gwyn if you want, it's too hard, I already play that in RL.

You can't jail people in a game where they can log out, and where only Lindens can ban their log-ins.

My solution to this very chronic problem is to public the names of the perpetrators locally so that people can opt to ban them.

[Prokofy Neva]

What this person said in the meeting may have gotten lost in the shuffle:

"[15:17] Astarte Artaud: No cos that nmmeans something t step through quickly"

regarding the use of the word "portal".

As I think of it, possibly "Support Portal" might work to imply that people get a lot of help as they enter, given how hard it is. Yes, that confuses it with "support" the system to help your game later, but it couldn't hurt for people to have a better connotation of the world.

This portal is NOT something you step through in 40 minutes.

The concept of a 40-minute immigration procedure is nuts.

What's more important is self-pacing and flexible levels of sustained help over the first 30 days.

I have not found anything to be different in nearly three years here, than what Ingrid Ingersoll told me in my first hour: it takes 30 days to get used to it and learn all the features.

[Samantha Poindexter]

...the chat-only (well, text-based) client already exists, incidentally, though it's in early beta just now: SLeek. http://delta.slinked.net/programming/sleek/

[Rhys Hutton]

Does calling people dick suckers make you feel good? When you do, do you get the smug look of an look-at-me-I'm-such-a-bad-ass-seventh-grader way on your face?

Crude.

Puerile.

Crass.

Arrogant.

Unsophisticated.

Boorish.

Conversation Monopolizing Attention Addict.

And you think it's always someone else's fault when you get the ban hammer in yet another venue. *chuckles*

I'd go on but I doubt there's enough character space to fit all the applicable adjectives in.

Your style of conversation is utter dogcrap. I don't even know why you bother to pretend to ask questions of people like Dirk because you've already convicted them before you've even opened that big fat yapper. LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU I'VE MADE UP MY MIND YOU'RE PROFITEERING DICK SUCKERS WHO ARE FAKE ALTRUISTS! Because we all know that ONLY Prok can be truly altruistic...

See folks, Prok's precious hubs are "threatened" again. Prok is worried that he will lose some newb rentals while accusing others of the same. It's truly amazing how much Prok projects onto others.

But I'm sure I'll be told that he barely makes any ROI and it's all charity from the CareBear depths of his widdle Grinchian heart. Funny that, because I've seen him brag that he makes a decent profit, on other forums and blogs. Whatever fits the current situation, right Prokameleon?

[Ace Albion]

I quite like Sleek. Sadly it needs the .NET thingers, which means generally you're running it on something that could run actual SL anyway.

Heh I like how Dirk started by saying his OI is all about helping people altruistically, and ended with asking about how helpers are going to get paid :D

[Rhys Hutton]

Eh, I never heard him say he was being altruistic. I heard Prok accusing him of it though.

I heard him say he wasn't doing it to sell land, which was another one of Prok's convictions ala Go straight to jail, do not pass go and do not collect 200$.

And Prok, to touch on something you said in an earlier post about "write when you get work" and your reasoning for using it with me - I call bullshit. Of course I have heard the expression. When say, a person parents say it to them it's a completely different thing than when some one says it in a smart assed manner to a stranger. You do it all the time to others, with various derogatory statements about term papers and "did you find work yet?". I know exactly what you meant, so save it.

[Prokofy Neva]

Rhys, um, excuse me, but a person in the *land business* who opens up an OI is using it as a loss leader to help his land business. The OI itself may lose money, i.e. not directly, as a parcel, provide ROI. But overall, it's part of a good business practice to have orientation, help, etc. to build good will -- but also CUSTOMERS of one's own in that land business.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. I do this; others do this. It's *legitimate*.

What's fake and ILLEGITIMATE is when people making money in SL start posturing and posing and spouting nonsense about how they are doing something altruistically and for the good of the community. Having debated Dirk at length about this right into the weeds, I can see that he is absolutely seized with his own perception of himself as a savior of simkind, helping the Noobs as a gracious provider of top-quality education and training that is all about making it possible for them...to rent *my* rentals -- which he recommends ROLF>

Why do people believe such fake things? They need to first get over their shame that there is something wrong with commerce. There isn't. Commerce is a good thing, and good businesses have good practices like free introductory offers and help. You can help newbies, but don't then posture and say that it isn't ultimately about selling land. And selling land is a good thing. It helps the Lindens; it helps your business; it funds the subsidy of newbies. My God, I just hate the fakeness and falseness of it all, it's truly retarded.

Write when you get work is meant exactly as it means: write when you have something to say. You don't. You merely cavil and kvetch. I have no idea of your RL situation and to accuse someone of applying an idiotic expression like "write when you get work" as a hint about RL is just REALLY stretching it and just plain retarded.

[Prokofy Neva]

>See folks, Prok's precious hubs are "threatened" again. Prok is worried that he will lose some newb rentals while accusing others of the same. It's truly amazing how much Prok projects onto others.

You simply don't know the facts here. They aren't "my infohubs" but Governor Linden land. Some dozen or so residents' groups made the content for them, created the help stations, and work them when they can, for better or worse. I don't even know these other people. You can see them in the list and judge for yourself. Probably the best one is the Hobo one in Calleta; then the printing press one in Braunworth is also an excellent build with interesting activities nearby, too. Ours is also among the top trafficked.

These infohubs do not give "newb rentals" -- people just off the boat don't run and spend money on rentals. They are only labour intensive and only a cost center. To describe them as a "loss leader" is even charitable, as helping the raw undirected newbie stream is really hard work. It's not hard work that I take on, except only now and then when I can spare some time -- but I have *enough* newbies right in my rentals, who DO come into the game ready to rent. I have subsidized lower-cost rentals for those who find the whole Lindex/land thing too daunting at first, and it helps them get used to the whole idea of land and costs, then they go buy their own land, most of them, or they move on to my higher primmed and larger rentals.

To say that I'd be "worried" about having half the traffic at a public infohub is an absurdity. Worried that....6,000 traffic worth of people instead of 12,000 or 33,000 didn't come through? And that would be...because why?

Frankly, when there are 33,000, the sim is so full that my regular customers in the store and the newbie housing at the other end of the sim only face lag. So when it's down in the range of 12,000 it's simply a better experience for all. I created the newbie stores and housing so that those who did want to rent have an opportunity to do so. It's a tiny fraction of the stream. And it's no "hard sell" or necessity to make this sim profitable-- renters come from the search list or ads, not from the infohub because most people who get it together to rent do so after some adaptation.

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the lists of people who have retained are the people who have made a payment to Ravenglass Rentals. That's because I try to make good experiences for people, they socialize, they make friends, they have lovers, they get married, they start businesses -- and they stay, and keep logging on. I help them to do that, and I'm proud of it, just as proud as Dirk Talamasca. In that, we are no different, though he sells more expensive land and has an easier time of land management. I deal with the really hard stuff -- like 3 Japanese people with absolutely no English who have never used a teleporter and spend an hour trying to find the blinds and working them in their apartment, walking them through in baby steps, or explaining to Spanish and Italian and Dutch without English, in my mixture of French and Russian and whatever I can muster out of translators, why their prims keep returning to inventory and what groups are and how to join and work them. And so on. Dirk presses "deed" and forgets about it the next minute.

That's not to slam what he does.That's all good. But I'm sorry, this mouthing of these typical fatuous American platitudes about "training" just don't impress me. Newbies don't need "training" -- they aren't at some fucking expensive corporate retreat learning how to optimalize their Powerpoint presentations to make sales. They are in a goddamn game space, a game-like situation where they need to be encouraged to have some fun with it, and given the very very basic stuff you need to get going -- and then have ways to level up going through other kinds of knowledge sources -- which BTW includes not only my land and stores for newbies, but the infohub I support with copious help cards about how to group, deed, sell, manage land and groups, how to set up security for yourself and privacy, etc.

>But I'm sure I'll be told that he barely makes any ROI and it's all charity from the CareBear depths of his widdle Grinchian heart. Funny that, because I've seen him brag that he makes a decent profit, on other forums and blogs. Whatever fits the current situation, right Prokameleon?

A statement like this just illustrates the speaker to be a vicious fucktard, clueless about how SL business works.

I make sure I make a profit from Second Life. I'm not a wealthy person, and I'm not here to play Lady Bountiful. This stuff has to pay for itself -- pronto. It has to make bank, or I don't do it. So I scramble, hustle, adjust, revise, cut, and learn constantly, and it's my chosen way in Second Life.

I use my profits to subsidize newbies and things like the Money Tree or low-cost mall rents with ads built in so people get started and sustained in business. I always have plenty left over to pay my RL bills but I'm not in this full-time, I have RL jobs as well.

No, infohubs are losses in the sense that they suck up time and money. Development and supplying content is constant. I just spent another evening buying and placing content -- games, voters, stuff. But that's my wish, it's a projet I support.

We don't need a Linden hand out. In fact, if they want to charge tier on this land and deed it over to the group for some fee, that's fine too, I'd still run it.

There is no reason in hell that the Lindens cannot use the same simple tagging system they've used on their precious business partners list to tag the goddamn resident infohubs. I'm sorry, but Philip is either just out of touch or just not caring. And in fact when I followed up in email later, he basically palmed me off to Jeska (!) -- the way Lindens do when they want some "community Linden" to "handle you".

Here the Lindens have a dozen infohubs where people have worked very hard to build content, orientation, and traffic. Some lay fallow; others are active. If the Lindens would work out the problem of the newbie stream to them, they could become better.

Months ago, one of the causes I lobbied in SL was the evening out of the stream to these hubs. I had to practically stand on my head naked to get the damn Lindens to see this -- and they still don't because there's one or two Lindens somewhere in the chain here absolutely wedded to their view of things and they can't let go.

I pointed out to them that the script they used at the orientation point that randomized entry of newbies to the mainland hubs was a flawed concept. Such a small pool of 12 or 22 or 52 even (they include welcome areas) things or objects in a list is NOT a list from which you successfully "randomize". Any idiot knows that even without a math degree. I've personally stood, on an alt, at that drop-off point and pressed the button 100 times, successfully, over a period of 7 days, to see what I would get. And this friggin' "random" script kept delivering the same few over and over again in a row, then "randomizing" some of the others cycyling through -- to the point where I began to wonder if in fact somebody's girlfriend was in a hub that they were deliberately scripting to deliver newbs too lol. That would be so very SL, eh?

But no, it's just an egghead's fascinationg with scripts that randomize and how "fun" that is -- except it's NOT fun because random means random. Random can be 17 things in a row. And what that leads to is ridulcously skewed load balancing. So a hub will get wacked with a load 3 days in a row over and over, and have 32,000 on it, while another will have 600.

One of the obdurate issues of the Lindens -- and smarmy fanboyz I'd have to endure in groups discussing this --was they believed that "some hubs were just more popular than others, suck it up".

But that's not the case, as any casual observer can see. The goddman script dumps them off too much at one area, and not enough elsewhere.

Load balancing, boys and girls, is achieved by a simple thing: a script that serializes instead of randomizers. Hello? Now, you would think such a simple, workaday concept could get across. But no. I jumped up and down. I screamed. I IM'd. I really went to the mat on it.

And...was told that there was nobody to do it. So I called up Ordinal Malaprop, God bless her, explained the problem and *within a minute* she adjusted another script she had done for random landmark exploration and sent me back what I call the Optimalized Newbie Distribution System. I packaged it in an attractive prim lol and I sent it to this Linden, telling them it was "done" and all they had to do was deploy it.

And they wouldn't. Such is the sheer insane pigheadedness of people in this system. They are in love with technical solutions of their own making, solutions that don't work. They scorn simple solutions.

It reminds me of that old Boy Scout joke about what you do if you run out of toilet paper, you get a hammer...

So today, I look in sorrow as one infohub somebody works hard at is scorned 3 days in a row with the newbie stream because of the idiot-ass script, and another one without coverage is overflowing.

Well, I do my part, showing up to help and trying to keep the area free of griefers and shooters. BTW finally after a skirmish the Lindens turned non-group scripts off to solve that constant orbiting/caging issue.

To be sure, some traffic is people returning, and some people will return more to those they like better, for whatever reason -- one key reason being that the system automatically sets the infohub as home for them (and one of my stations explains to them how that works and how they can set it elsewhere).

Now...what's happened? This entire network of stations, where residents are for the most part willing and able to work on newbie assistance -- or could ramp us JUST THE WAY THOSE COMPANIES DID AFTER THEY WERE INVITED DUH. But it was passed over in favour of more glitzy, fancy, regapped pets and new partners that needed feting.

They claim they had to start with them to "get started". They acted like this was a matter of fact thing. But...there was another way they could have gotten started. They could have asked those who HAD ALREADY MADE INFOHUBS WITH NEWBIE ORIENTATION IN THEM DER if they'd like to have metrics and then worked out the evening of the stream.

(I'll bet that same uneven problem plagues even their corporate pets).

Sigh.

Well, I have written this story merely for the public record. I don't expect things to change. I realize our labour is unsung, if not in vain. I realize that the concept of "our world/our imagination" as one in which we also take charge of things like teaching our fellow residents the ropes is thrown by the wayside for all kinds of corporate exigencies. It's truly sad.