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July 30, 2007

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» Attack on the grid? from Bart in SL
Prokofy Neva and the Second Life Insider are both claiming that the problems we've been experiencing with the grid for the last two days are not the result of internal, technical problems but instead of a concerted attack of griefers at the grid.The explo [Read More]

Comments

Laetizia Coronet

They should close the grid - it's useless now, just causing damage.

Ordinal Malaprop

Oh come on - "Leninist" doesn't mean that at all. It means people who follow the ideological lead of Lenin. PN types are not noted for their interest in decades-old political philosophies. They're not actually noted for any sort of ideological consistency at all, even though some of them may post pretentious teenage tracts claiming some sort of ideological basis for their actions.

M. Schell

The Lindons cannot be allowed to supress or infiltrate any group in the name of order. To do so would mean the PN would have already won.

While the State exists, there can be no freedom. When there is freedom there will be no State.
-Lenin

Besides... the grid could use a revolution..

Prokofy Neva

They are Leninist in following the methods, ideas, and even symbols of Lenin. They may do this as a joke, and may lay it on thick to harass me in particular, but they understood some basic things about terror, which was in large part invented by Russian revolutionaries for the modern world.

There is always this die-hard wish to preserve Lenin for some good; for some nice interpretation; for something vaguely about helping poor people. Everybody has gotten over doing that for Nazis and the SS and Hitler. They need to get over it for the other evil of the 20th century, the Leninists.

These people are not teenagers. They may recruit and use teens, but they are not babies at all.

"It's unlikely that the Nigras themselves are actually responsible for the work, as most of them are 'script kiddies' (people who cannot create or modify software) and this sort of thing seems to be well above their usual displayed capacity (usually limited to screaming obscenities, using cage-guns or employing the work of others). Most likely, their eagerness to cause trouble is being exploited by someone else."

What's annoying and stupid about this sort of gross fellow-travelling spinning is that in fact, the 4/chan, b/tard, PN, v-5 pick-a-name is indeed run by perfectly adult, skilled, conscious people who aren't accidently scripting stuff they can't keep control of, but very deliberately time their attacks, have the same M.O.s, and find very sophisticated ways of making these attacks.

I don't know why there is so much resistance to seeing ths. You open your eyes, you see it.

Prokofy Neva

They don't need to suppress any group. THey need to investigate and exam groups that keep turning up hordes of griefers in them, and start to realize this is no accident, comrade. The groups who keep having these people among their members need to be challenged about why they are in their groups, and asked about what they know.

Prokofy Neva

In the name of the freedom of these groups to go on harbouring griefers, all of our freedom even to use the grid is being suppressed. So what about that? Civil liberties extremists always invoke the rights of terrorists. Think about the rights of victims, too.

Ordinal Malaprop

They're not Leninists even if they appropriate Communist iconography (let's not get into the endless factions of communism on this score) any more than if someone appropriates Nazi iconography - which is not unknown, though tends to lead to an automatic ban in SL so is less common - they are Nazis. I have had dealings with both types, mostly the latter; there _are_ real, race-hate Nazis in SL, but silly kids waving swastikas for the shock value is not an indication. There is no ideological link here.

The point about them being script kiddies in the main is mostly a practical one. When they claim to have developed some amazing world-crashing device, that can be taken with a pinch of salt. What it really means - at most - is that some fairly mediocre scripters have spent time investigating the existing, unpatched, holes in SL, the ones which have been forgotten by the Love Machine, and exploited them. In most cases it just means that they have some antiquated sim-crash scripts which have been copy-pasted into new prims, and which don't do what they say they will. If they are good at anything, it is propaganda.

Just Some Guy

Most of this makes sense, but I never really got how "standing" on your (virtual) head is "grief". I'm sorry, but that is always going to read like MMORPG gamers. Don't take the a few paper dolls so seriously.

Likewise I'm unclear on whether you want FBI to respond to an SL Denial of Service, or to people standing on Profoky's head.

Prokofy Neva

Um, Just, as you know you need an SL name to post here, you are banned.

It's an interactive social world, not a fucking war game. You may imagine you can behave with impunity to other human beings represented by avatars, and treat them like characters and NPCs in shoot-em-up games, but they are people socializing in an interactive world structured on civilization and peace, not war.

The Lindens need to understand that and keep people like you at bay, as you fail to be civilized.

They do that not only by endlessly designing tools for fools, but by having social policies as well -- and that is cost-free, and does scale. It scales by being replicatative. By setting an example. As good behaviour and its training has always scaled all over the world since time immemorial. It starts by Spike first verbally admonishing something he sees like that or even flicking the asshole off the server immediately, kicking the stupid puppy out the door for demonstrative griefing like that.

If the Lindens can't manage their own platform at least at that level, no FBI can help them; maybe the FBI should actually just shut them down, if they metastasize, provide a home for griefer groups to socialize, recruit, and hone their skills, and move on to other more lucrative and RL targets.

M. Schell

I don't mean to fear monger here, but I'd stay way out of the way from these guys. I read enclopedia dramatica on occasion and they have a nasty habbit of causing a world of hurt should they discover personnal information.

I'd rather not have death threats all night and day like poor Alex Wuori (He's the one who reported 4chan to faux news)

Perhaps this will blow over and they'll become constructive like W-Hat. Baku is a very funny sim, and secondlife safari always brightens up my week.

My only concern is I dont think these guys are in it for laughs like the goons. I think they want to be assholes.

Just Some Guy

People like me? Such presumption! And here I am championing the rights of all to interpret the new reality as they choose.

> If the Lindens can't manage their own platform (...) maybe the FBI should actually just shut them down

Yeah luckily, it really doesn't work that way in this country.

You're suffering from an undiagnosed case of "immersion dysfunction".

John Smith

I wonder if they'll do what W-Hat did and only target furries and sexclubs. Furnation going down didn't really bother me too much and if these guys are new, they won't even be able to do that.

W-Hat were masters of the art. Griefers yes, but if you weren't a target and if you had a sense of humor, the goons were hardly a grave threat to the grid.

Besides, I think there is enough anti-griefing technology on the market to prevent any real threat. Psitec and Invisibot all work well.

To top that off, these guys probably don't have the nerve to enter sims like Tethys, Dorien (Formerally the Woofer) or Badnarik and thats where I hang out.

If they want to play in the big leagues, I say they arm up and bring it on. Let the AN, Mercz, SLSN and god knows who else take care of 'em.

Brennan Planer

Linden Lab can't close the Grid, they'd have to refund everybody that pays Tier.

The Green chat is coming from Objects, Since Objects can send IM's and you can name Objects whatever you want that is what they are doing.

Daniel Smith

Has it never entered your mind that they are doing this simply to get a reaction out of you? ever think that they are timing this in such a manner as to make you react in exactly the way they want you to react?

Khamon Fate

Objects can send IMs?

Prokofy Neva

Khamon, yes, indeed they can. At least, they can send spam into chat, bypassing the normal IM system.

Try to listen to the simple thing I'm telling you here, and suspend your disbelief for a second.

I've already explained it in detail.

First, I notice my email filling up with offline IMs -- those are IMs sent to me inworld by SOMETHING -- an object that sends a message, say a rental box expiring or being paid, or a person IMing me.

But this time, there is no object on my land of my own that could be expected to send me messages, or an object I've paid, that could send me messages but an object with a name, "Mia Linden" or "Urizenus Sklar" etc which then has a line of obscene text or stuff about the grid being crashed, pool's out, etc.

That line of text is being sent remotely, by an object evidently on a sandbox. How do I know that? Because the offline IM contains this message:

The object 'Urizenus Sklar' has sent you a message from Second Life:
ATTENTION: THE GRID IS UNDER ATTACK, THE PN HAS CLOSED THIS POOL. ALSO COCKS.

= Urizenus Sklar is owned by GreySkall Barbosa
= http://slurl.com/secondlife/Deus%20Insula/197/172/20

so obviously, while the IM itself, without this extra bit of info at the end, looks like it is "from" Urizenus because it is seemingly him sending it, it is merely an object named Urizenus.

BTW, this new info addition by the Lindens was put into place to fight a previous griefing spate which involved sending notecards to spam accounts by remote. I was hammered by that, too.

Now do you get it?

And do you see that to have a script that can direct chat right into someone's chat space, bypassing the usual IM interface, i.e. not showing as a blinking IM, not from an object they own or paid or interacted with, by remote, from an object owned by a third-party -- do you see what that represents to the grid?!

Brennan, duh, it's coming from objects. But objects do not NORMALLY send you chat ACROSS SIMS like that DIRECTLY into your chat history/space. They come in *IM boxes* duh. That's what shows you this is a hack.

Gosh, Daniel what a fucking UNIQUE fucking thought. If you don't get my philosophy about this, which is to expose them *anyway* because they need to be exposed, not because I'm a pin-cushion that helps "ouch" when pricked, then you are too stupid. It's over your head. Move along.

Gosh an awful lot of Smiths here I don't think are in the list.


Khamon Fate

Sorry, I hadn't groked that there were actual objects inworld sending the messages but was under the impression that they were being streamed into the system from remote, IRC-type machine using the open library or such.

Kryss Wanweird

Prokofy,

I see only two solutions possible for your griefing attack problems:

1- You report till exaustion these incidents to LL. Then, LL can access these ppl internet providers and request them banned from the service. Banning, alts, IPs, none of this will be effective. Once these people are banned from there internet service, they would have to find another inet provider. It would make their lives more difficult, but they still could come back.

2- Implement some sort of mechanism where you could filter your Ims and other messages. So, you would ban everyone from sending you messages, exept ppl from your allow list. Now, for that it would be required analysis (to see the possibility of implementing such) an development (=$$).

Prokofy Neva

>were being streamed into the system from remote, IRC-type machine using the open library or such.

Indeed, that may be the case, too, given that the people are removed from the people list, but keep streaming, and even the objects are missing, and yet keep streaming. We know that the w-hats had opened up IRC relays for example into SL, seems like a simple thing.

Re: "LL can access these ppl internet providers and request them banned from the service."

This is one of those naive things that people say who have never observed how people roam around with disposable accounts, using wireless, using public terminals, using all kinds of things that would make it impossible to "ban them from their ISP". Just impossible.

Why would I go through all that trouble to filter a list? but see, that's the sort of thing the Lindens would do. Rather than trying to chase the providers -- you never know, some of them may be connecting through individual actual known accounts that in fact don't leapfrog around -- they cook up more and more tools. Soon every move we make will be accompanied by a blue screen asking us whether we want it or not -- like the constant captcha checking on facebook.

Kryss Wanweird

As I said, ban from ISP would make things more difficult. Of course they can use wireless and inet cafes, but, it would make things at least very uncomfortable. I doubt that these sl griefers are up to that. They are probably accessing from the comfort of their parents home.
As for the filtering Ims, its not any trouble at all. I find it very intriguing that lindens didnt implement this. You should only be able to receive Ims from friends list, as "default". And you should be able to opt if you want to receive messages from anyone or not. As well as messages from objects. After all, that is how other chat programs work (msn, yahoo, skype).

Prokofy Neva

Kryss, it really does get tiresome to keep pointing this out: some IPs are dynamic and keep changing and some people constantly use anonymizers; others don't change. More and more, DSL lines don't change; but it depends on the country and the provider as has been argued copiously and strenuosly on this blog and a million other blogs.

IP banning is not effective. It should be done more, possibly, and let those affected wrongfully appeal, but given that in a high-rise in a big city, 10 people might play SL and all be knocked out due to one griefer, it's not really so viable. And that's why we need to press the lindens about the hash-mark stuff, which is very hazy, and maybe deliberately so to be less specific to clue in griefers themselves.

I don't want a filtered world. Just because some asswipes are spamming the chat now, no reason to strait-jacket the world "like Yahoo". It is not the Internet or email. It's a world.

Anonymoose Neegrah

You are a fucking lunatic.

The cyber equivilant of filling your voicemail with phone button push beeps is not a DOS or terrorism, criminal, or violent.

Its a fucking MMO with no objective or levels.

Seek some therapy.

Daniel Smith

Prokofy, it's not about 'getting' anything at all. If you honestly think they are doing what you claim they are doing, go to the federal government with it.

I have been using the internet and various access programs and other services long enough to know when a person is attempting to provoke a specific reaction from me. Everything I have read concerning this group and your experiences with them shows the exact same signs.

Now, what list are you talking about? The list of users in Second Life? I already told you that I do not post using account names and that this is my God given name.

Mexican_Pirate

So wait, you took the time to sit down and write a >9000 page report on how the FBI should arrest people for screwing around in a video game?

Prokofy Neva

Daniel, you're really missing the obvious here. If this group was just a bunch of kids, and merely wanted to poke at me with a stick to get a reaction out of "an old granny with cats," they'd limit themselves to just poking me.

But...they harass scores of people, many of whom never speak up because they think if they do, it will worsen. They attack Lusk routinely due to the anti-furry hatred. They attacked Relay for Life just because they wanted to disrupt something getting a lot of attention that was good. This enabled w-hat to posture as goody two-shoes, and that's not lost on me, too, as another function of all of their SA/W-hat propaganda schemes.

No, this is a serious problem, concerted, planned, systematic, and I'm targeted because I make THAT point, not merely because I squawk when poked.

I don't believe it's your God-given name. God doesn't give names. Parents do. I don't see that there is sufficient evidence. Bye!

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