An announcement on the Blog today says that LL will now accept the softer mediation variant to resolve disputes, evidently to deter the litiginous among their irate residents like Marc Bragg, whose lawsuit against the Lindens on alleged theft of his property, after he in fact stole their property, continues apace.
This service will not enable people to resolve disputes with other residents -- and THAT is what makes Second Life turn so sour for most people. It's not the Lab per se that's really the problem; it's either the Lab's unequal and biased enforcement or lack of enforcement of their TOS, such as to favour some residents over others, or it is the ability of some residents to make life hell for others, with the laissez-faire Lindens ignoring them or acting powerless to do anything to instill some basic norms of civilization in this virtual world.
One of the worst phenomena lately is the presence of litigators and the litiginous in SL. Both are a total bane on SL existence, and as I say below, should be stopped -- not by preventing their presence, since the platform should be open to all, but by pushing back as hard as we all can to their overweening bid for power over us. There is nothing worse than lawyers without the rule of law, and without any structures of a democratic society and the tethering of real life to keep them from harming others with their zeal to enforce legalities. The Lindens are definitely moving in the right direction to go away from this awful litiginous society that corporate America has spawned; however, I'd applaud this move more if a) they removed the "any reason or no reason" clause from the TOS and b) they'd allow mediation to solve the problem of their banning people from the blogs (a case to which this mediation procedure will not apply).
As always, hell is other people. And SL is hell with other people, anonymous, and streaming.
Inara Marquette: Stubborn Creators, Khamon :)
Lamorna Proctor: i must apologize in advance that i wilkl have to leave early
Robin Linden: So, in a few minutes there will be a blog post up about a change to the TOS. I expect you'll want to chat about that.
Lamorna Proctor: *will
Aargle Zymurgy: LOL
Inara Marquette: Hi Prok
You: Hi
Robin Linden: Heya Prokofy
Jessica Holyoke: what change will that be Robin?
Ciaran Laval: What change?
You: a blog post about?
Alexa Linden: Hi Prokofy :)
Inara Marquette: change in TOS Prok
Khamon Fate: Does it concern particle spewers that want to animate my av?
Ciaran Laval: Is this gonna be controversial?
Robin Linden: No, but I heard about those yesterday
Robin Linden: I don't know Ciaran. I hope not.
Ciaran Laval: Stop teasing us
You: Does it concern the unjust practice of prosecuting avatars for publishing the speech of public figures in chat? When will *that* be dropped from the TOS? It's not enforceable, and the tools in fact contain chat loggers now.
Inara Marquette: this griefing mess has been awful :(
Khamon Fate: One can't type, walk, or effectively do anything when being spammed with dialogs because they steal the focus
Robin Linden: Hang on one sec. I need to see if it's up.
Khamon Fate: You can only not publish that in the official forum Prok.
Alexa Linden: I like your new Avatar Prokofy
You: thanks
Khamon Fate: What new avatar?
You: he looks a little smoked out tho you know? I ilked my old one better
Akasha Voom: Alexa... :/
Alexa Linden: oh I like this one
Aargle Zymurgy: latest I see is the grid status
Khamon Fate: Is that new?
Robin Linden: Have a seat Prokofy
Khamon Fate: Needs a shave
Khamon Fate: ha ha ha
Robin Linden: hehe
Khamon Fate: I didn't turn the flutterbys back on
You: I can't sit until everything rezzes or I'll squash a tiny Linden or something
Khamon Fate: Wasn't me
Inara Marquette: Hi Tao! Hi Sav !
Tao Takashi: Hi there
Savannah Glimmer: Hi Inara !
Alexa Linden: LOL
Robin Linden: Hey Tao, Savannah
Inara Marquette needs chocolate
Khamon Fate: It's up now
Savannah Glimmer: Hi Robin : )
Inara Marquette: Hey Wyn :)
Art Lyle: hello all, am I welcome to sit in watch and learn, or this private?
Robin Linden: just posted
You: and it says...what? That no groups may be formed with the words "Woodbury University"?
Robin Linden: Welcome Art
Art Lyle: thanks
Alexa Linden: join us Art :)
Robin Linden: No, not about griefing.
You: or "wood...byr unyversity"
Robin Linden: It's a TOS change that adds a provision for dispute resolution with Linden Lab
You: ok how about this unjust rule in the TOS about "disclosure" when it applies to public meetings, and publicizing the bad behaviour of public figures?
Inara Marquette: its up now?
Robin Linden: Just posted
Jessica Holyoke: afk
You: Oh, just when I was going to sic the Portugese e-justice on you, dayum.
Robin Linden: I don't think the Portuguese e-justice is ready yet
Robin Linden: Prokofy are you referring to the chat log rule?
Inara Marquette: Hi Saijanai
Khamon Fate: It's about independent arbitration
Khamon Fate: Why is my text not appearing
Khamon Fate: Have we crashed?
Tao Takashi: you muted yourself
Aargle Zymurgy: hm... doing refreshes on the blog page, but nothing yet.
Inara Marquette: I did that the other day :)
Khamon Fate: ha ha ha I muted myself
Wyn Galbraith: LOL Khamon! Nice to see yu again.
Inara Marquette: still waiting on he post Robin
You: Yes indeed I am Robin, which is an unjust, unenforceable rule that is used for selective prosecution of dissenters and disliked people.
Ciaran Laval: Is this all legal?
Wyn Galbraith: What's changed, Robin?
Khamon Fate: But Prokofy it only applies to what you post in the LL-sponsored forum
You: How can you possibly enforce it now with voice? And you put a chat-logging tool right in the client, as Bob Bunderfeld helpfully pointed out in the exchange about his publication of Kona Lindens' chatlog with im
Khamon Fate: And you don't post in the LL-sponsored forum
Ciaran Laval: I mean saying that you can only file a claim in San Francisco, I thought that got ruled against?
Inara Marquette: [11:08] Robin Linden: It's a TOS change that adds a provision for dispute resolution with Linden Lab
You: no, it applies to inworld chat, I was just sent a warning for exposing the bad behaviour of Benjamin Duranske in an IM to me after he was banned from my property, and he informed on me like a squalid police informant, and I got a warning within hours for "disclosure".
You: this was pasting inworld inmy own room chat, not on the forums obviously
You: I dunno, when will all this stuff grow up, seriously, real life doesn't work this way
Robin Linden: So do you recommend that we ignore the posting of chat logs?
You: absolutely
Khamon Fate: Yes, I agree
Robin Linden: what do you all think?
You: you cannot police it, you cannot do it justice, it is used merely to settle scores, it's a misuse of the TOS and AR system, and now with voice, it's nuts
Ciaran Laval: No you can't just ignore them
Akasha Voom: reading :)
Khamon Fate: I've always thunk that was an umnecessary burden
Robin Linden: I do think we have more important things to deal with, such as the particle spammer mentioned earlier
Wyn Galbraith: IM's are suppose to be private. So I would not post a IM chat unless it was ok by the other person/s involved or in a court.
Aargle Zymurgy: hm... that looks good, Robin
Inara Marquette: yes please
You: besides, if someone like Duranske captures your chat from your parcel by spying on you, camming in from neighbouring Linden land, and then uses espionage to report on your for "disclosure," hey now, that's wild and wacky.
Robin Linden: and Prokofy is right - voice makes it somewhat pointless
You: I think when it applies to public meetings, and public figures, there isn't immunity, just as in real life
Robin Linden: That's why we have the rule Wyn - privacy
Tao Takashi: isn't it netiquette to at least ask if it's ok to post e.g. an IRC transcript?
Ciaran Laval: What if the contents of a chat log are libellous? You can't ignore that
Wyn Galbraith: Exactly. :)
Savannah Glimmer: Wouldnt it be the same as recording a phone conversation? If one of the parties involved records it, then its ok , but its not ok when not involved directly.
You: I don't think it's good ethics to publish someone's private im in a private matter anywhere, to spy on them, or publish their private im as a private person, but that's ethics you cannot enforce in law
Inara Marquette: yes Tao is one has ethics
Khamon Fate: The chat log posting goes back to personal responsibility. The rule justification is that people could alter the logs before posting. But that's *NOT* LL's responsibility. If people do that (cheat, lie) we'll find them out.
Robin Linden: I think so Tao. And as has been pointed out to me before, whatever I say is fair game
Khamon Fate: LL really doesn't have to interfere with that at all.
You: if we could not publish the emails of public officials making private statements, congressmen who prey on interns could never be prosecuted, you could never have a normal democratic country.
Wyn Galbraith: Chats are more public that IMs.
Savannah Glimmer: Hey Raucous
Raucous Finsbury: Hi Sav
Khamon Fate: It's a prime example of LL burdening itself with coddling the commuuuuunity like we're a bunch of children.
Robin Linden: So Khamon, let's say that happens and you find them out. Then what?
You: if you publish somebody's harassing IM after they've been banned from your property it's your recourse for naming and shaming them because you don't have the tools to get rid of their abusiveness from neighbouring Linden land -- it's a dysfunction of the world itself
Wyn Galbraith: Anyone can hear your chat if they're within 18m. So to say anything private and expect it to stay private is foolish.
You: yes Khamon is absolutely right, coddling, parenting, net-nannying
Khamon Fate: Then we're a society and we'll police ourselve in such matters.
Robin Linden: I'm all for that.
Robin Linden: But how will you do it.
You: say, if you all can have a social policy like this about chat logs, my God, dream one about about griefer extortionist signs too, there's real value in doing that
Khamon Fate: If I post altered chat logs often enough, people will stop believing me, shun me,
Khamon Fate: at least not listen to me anymore
You: it's up to the users to figure out how to use or not use chat logs, not LL
Tao Takashi: but you should never trust one source alone anyway ;-)
Khamon Fate: Y'all don't have to PUNISH ME, just start ignoring me, like you would in real life if I published lies
Wyn Galbraith: Tao is correct on that one.
You: my Internet provider does not punish me if I take the off-the-record statement of ap ublic figure, and put it on my email list for my job -- they couldn't possibly do something like that, it would be insane
You: that public official could decide never to give me an interview agian, but he can't stop me frmo using the INternet or email
You: that's how LL has to be
You: you cannot enforce journalistic ethics by law without suppressing freedom of the press
Khamon Fate: Well we've made that point clear, now lets rant incessently about spinning particle spewers that animate my av
Robin Linden: for me it's not about journalistic ethics. it's about privacy.
Khamon Fate: When those hit a sim, the world is useless.
You: yes that one is really awful, Khamon, geez, that's evil, a zillion requests to animate your av you can't stop
Robin Linden: what I'm hearing is that you don't believe this rule is protecting privacy.
Inara Marquette: If you don't want it repeated, don't say it... its the same in RL as in SL.
Khamon Fate: You know, if I don't want you to repeat it, I ain't sayin it.
You: public figures cannot enjoy as high a standard of privacy as private persons, Robin, that notion is central to democracy in the U.S. and Europe and in fact many other places in the world.
You: Otherwise, people in power abuse it.
Ciaran Laval: There will be a lot of people clamming up if they follow that course though
You: Then they shouldn't come to public meetings, or grief people in IMs
Wyn Galbraith: Even in the realm of textbased gamings, the pages/IMs are considered private and not to be exposed unless agreed on by both people. Unless it is to prove harrassment and then only to those in authority that can handle that. Public channel chats are wide open, can be logged and distrubuted because they are public.
Robin Linden: Got any ideas how to kill those things Khamon?
Khamon Fate: If people want to be private, they should keep their mouths shut, and ditto, if they ask me not to repeat something and I do, they're gonna police that by not trusting me again.
You: it's a good deterrent to their abuse
Wyn Galbraith: True Khamon.
You: This isn't a game, Wyn. And real life doesn't work that way, as I've explained.
Inara Marquette: there you have it Khamin, well put.
Ciaran Laval: So when Robin sits here at this discussion she's going to be under pressure all the time to ensure she doesn't say anything even slightly out of line, that stifles discussion
Inara Marquette: *Khamon
Robin Linden: Let me float that one here -- eliminating the chat log ban -- and see what the response is.
You: Oh for crying out loud, she's a public official, these are open meetings, don't be ridiculous
Robin Linden: Ciaran, I'm already there.
Wyn Galbraith: Or take the IM to an external IM, but that still won't keep unethical people from publishing things that shoud be private.
Robin Linden: Tao posts the chat log every time.
You: most Lindens publish their chatlogs, if they have time, to the Wiki
Khamon Fate: That's true Wyn but that's a societal agreement that people agree to and abide by or what? If they break that rule, they're shunned out of games, not accepts, not trusted. No company goes barreling after them. That's not necessary.
Robin Linden: Things I've said show up in the Herald out of context.
You: do you honestly think that she's going to say something sensitive and off the record to US chickens?
You: She's going to save that for her SL Views where she makes everyone sign an NDA first
Robin Linden: uh oh.
Robin Linden: Let's not go there.
Wyn Galbraith: They are banned from the game or punished in some way depending on the degree of abuse, Khamon.
Khamon Fate floats on a purple cloud behind the chat log idea
Inara Marquette: So the griefing... how to put an end to it?
You: right, Wyn, because those are GAMEs run by controlling puny little game gods
You: but this is more like real life, thank God
Khamon Fate: Yes but by the players I mean.
Wyn Galbraith rolls her eyes.
Ciaran Laval: This isn't a press conference. There should be a degree of respect applied to what's said here.
You: MMORPG culture is the bane of SL existence.
You: Ciaran, at ease, Robin just mentioned that Tao published the logs anyway --as do I.
Khamon Fate: Those puny little gods invest loads of time and money into hosting those games
Wyn Galbraith: MMORPG is a large community and will be around a long time.
You: And yet we live, and breathe in Second Life, without fear or favour.
Tao Takashi: I do publish logs?
Ciaran Laval: Robin also said she'd been quoted out of line
You: well good, but no need to infect SL with their culture
Inara Marquette: welcome back Jessica
Jessica Holyoke: thanks
Wyn Galbraith: Like Wes Platt, like to hear you call him a puny little game god.
Khamon Fate: It is yes, and it functions as a community. We can do that here too.
You: well then she can issue a press release to set the record straight or ignore it, probably the better course
Jessica Holyoke: Did I miss the talk of the new TOS update while I was on the phone with a client?
You: and yes, they are all puny little game gods with unhappy childhoods
Wyn Galbraith: Ethics are ethics, doesn't matter if it's part of a game, SL or RL.
You: but let's talk about SL!
Inara Marquette: Ha Jessica xD
Robin Linden: It's been more interesting to talk about privacy Jessica.
Jessica Holyoke: oh, I can wait then
Wyn Galbraith: You need to do some real research Prokofy, too often your 'facts' are mislead.
Khamon Fate: It might be interesting to talk about the cost of arbitration
You: let's talk about whether Linden Lab, now that the august SL Bar Association has ruled to turn in Chinese dissidents to their persecutors, will start to throw up its hands and say, "We have to listen to the community, the community has spoken in the form of SLBA, Inshallah."
Robin Linden: Jeez Prokofy.
Astarte Artaud: Ok guys enough !!!
Robin Linden: Khamon - what's your question about cost?
You: Speaking of Inshallah, how did you like the caliphate Robin, did they make you put on a veil?
Ciaran Laval: Let's not speak about the caliphate
Jessica Holyoke: the update states that teh cost of arbitration to the resident can be at most $185 US
Akasha Voom: caliphate?
Wyn Galbraith: The Caliphate experiment is 13 century Moor. Did you really research their ideas?
Khamon Fate: It costs a max of $185US, but is there an average or hourly type rate or something? Can we get an estimate on a case before we commit?
Jessica Holyoke: The caliphate is a new sime opening in Novemeber using islamic law as a model
Robin Linden: I think you'd only have a cost like that if you were to hire an attorney, Khamon.
Inara Marquette: Really???
Wyn Galbraith is looking forward to visiting it.
Akasha Voom: ! interesting.
Alexa Linden: very
Khamon Fate: k, is this essentially arbitration to determine whether LL should act to recover whatever's been lost?
Wyn Galbraith: It's very interesting. Remember it's 13th century, not today.
You:
http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2007/09/the-lawyer-and-.html
Jessica Holyoke: how do you figure that Robin? The arbitrator still has to be paid
Inara Marquette: wow didnt hear of that yet - should be really interesting.
Khamon Fate: Essentially to justify y'all returning land or money to someone or such?
You: Wyn, they advocate imposing a caliphate today in SL and RL, read their literature and their site and stop invoking multi-culti pablum please.
Wyn Galbraith: They do not, read their literature.
Robin Linden: It's an option for SL Residents to resolve a problem with Linden Lab without going to court
Khamon Fate: I mean *you* will have to make the defendant pay up if the decision is against them right/
Khamon Fate: Oh oh okay, so it doesn't work between residents. I was misunderstanding that.
Jessica Holyoke: would Linden labs use this in a dispute with a resident of less than 10K?
Khamon Fate doh dee doh doh
Jessica Holyoke: Khamon: which this world really needs
Khamon Fate: What who's talking about elephants?
Khamon Fate: oh nm
Aargle Zymurgy: frank... mind putting that away
Aargle Zymurgy: I guess frank got put away
Robin Linden: Jessica - through the arbitrator the cost is limited. The one I mentioned in the blog post limits the cost to the Resident to US$185
Robin Linden: The balance would go to the company (LL)
Ciaran Laval: What part is a change of TOS Robin? I see arbitration as being offered but where's the change to the TOS?
Khamon Fate: We used to have no recourse at all except to file a civil suit in court.
Robin Linden: There was an arbitration clause that was removed, and replaced by this one.
Jessica Holyoke: actually, it was the International arbitrators
Ciaran Laval: Right I follow that Khamon and I see arbitration as an option.
Jessica Holyoke: my interesting point is that if you don't file in San francisco, it says we have to pay your attorney fees
You: I wonder, if you attempt this arbitration, and lose, whether that is a blow against you, and THEN Linden expels you "for any reason or no reason"
Khamon Fate: Even just adding something is a change.
Jessica Holyoke: or if we don't file in sanfrancisco
Ciaran Laval: No Jessica it says may have to pay
You: this gesture of arbitration would simply look a lot better without the "any reason or no reason" unconscionable clause
Khamon Fate: That certainly could happen Prokofy but LL haven't often acted that way in the past.
Khamon Fate: Have I muted myself again?
Wyn Galbraith: Arbitration is a good thing. I had such an agreement with my doctor so that he didn't have to pay large insurance fees and then could charge less for his services.
Jessica Holyoke: I think you're good Khamon
Inara Marquette: Hey Kooky :)
You: Is there a list of types of disputes that can be handled?
Khamon Fate: ooooo is LL gonna charge less if we presign an arbitration clause?
Ciaran Laval: Hold on, which part of the TOS has changed? If this is optional then what are we agreeing to that differs?
Khamon Fate: We're not, LL are agreeing to be bound, unlike it was before.
Kooky Jetaime waves....
Robin Linden: The dispute resolution clause replaced a binding arbitration clause.
Robin Linden: Heya Kooky
Khamon Fate: Is that not right?
Kooky Jetaime: I've so got to read the blog this morning.
Khamon Fate: Let's talk more about the charging less.
Khamon Fate: ha ha ha
Ciaran Laval: Ok with you now, I was looking for the hiden small print ;)
You: hmm aren't some of these national arbitration forums really owned by banks and credit card companies themselves?
Kooky Jetaime: I've been sitting on it waiting for a post-mortem on Saturday nights checkerboard disaster as I call it
Robin Linden: You can pick the one that isn't Prokofy.
Robin Linden: How much less Khamon?
Khamon Fate: Oh let's see 'bout half?
Khamon Fate: two-thirds?
Khamon Fate: ha ha ha
You: Robin, I don't this process looks like a very helpful one for appealing permabans, warnings, blocks from posting on the blog, banning from mailing lists, do you? I mean, I think probably one has to find something brave enough to take on that sort of litigation, or maybe the e-justice thing from Portugal.
Khamon Fate: I'm kidding, I doubt LL can project enough savings to offer a discount.
You: because what is sought is not monetary compensation but restoration to the lists and forums and such, its more like the injuction noted
Robin Linden: Yes - it's definitely meant to cover questions of value restitution.
You: but it could be useful for something like double billing or this blasted blocking of accounts on the allegation they haven't paid, when they have good credit card son them etc, this might be good for all those accounts blocked
Ciaran Laval: So how would you suggest disputes like that are resolved Prok? Are you really banned from the blog?
Robin Linden: Cyn and I were talking about a better appeals process yesteday.
Jessica Holyoke: Sometimes an admission or a declaration is all that is needed
You: I think they have to be solved in the real life media, Ciaran, it's th eonly way
Robin Linden: Or any appeals process, for that matter.
Khamon Fate: Do y'all really expect may cases, to me it seems like suing to get a job back with a company that fired your butt.
You: I'd love to know the percentage of appeals coming to abuse-manager or any other email at LL that resolve to overturning an LL decision
You: if you want to be transparent, you should publish that information
Jessica Holyoke: well, if you created a patent that can only be used in SL, being in SL is sort of important
You: do you EVER reverse a decision? I've never heard you to do that. Do you ever admit that you were wrong?
Wyn Galbraith would hate to have RL causes decided by the Media, "Everyone would be guilty."
Wyn Galbraith: *cases not causes.
Jessica Holyoke: Media trials are won by those that are media saavy, not in the right
You: free speech litigation can't work on a system like LL that has a TOS and a subscription, so only gradually raising public awareness of the problem would work
Kooky Jetaime: Just as legal trials are won by the most cunning lawyers, not the innocent.
Robin Linden: one sec - need to answer a question here...
Robin Linden: maybe you could solve all my problems by the time I come back.
Jessica Holyoke: eh?
Khamon Fate: Who said that a lawyer's job is to lie until what they're saying is accepted as the truth?
Ciaran Laval: ???
Kooky Jetaime: Noone, they figured out how to do it on their own?
Khamon Fate: Was that on your blog Prokofy?
Wyn Galbraith: LOL Robin
Jessica Holyoke: Khamon: I thought that was the president's job?
Khamon Fate: president of what?
Jessica Holyoke: any president
Khamon Fate: ha ha ha
Khamon Fate: LL doesn't have a president, we have a king
Ciaran Laval: Any President or top person, haven't you seen Robocop?
Wyn Galbraith makes Khamon president.
Kooky Jetaime: Anyone with sufficient power
Kooky Jetaime: even if they are ****less....
Khamon Fate: We live in a monarchial system under standard old court politics
Cybernout Yoshikawa: i am guest in your conversation, but are you really consulting and have focus on an topic, or are you just dwelling on air?
Khamon Fate: It's honestly pretty easy to work in if you know how and are willing to participate.
Khamon Fate: Well the idea of removing the chat log posting ban is floating on air
Astarte Artaud: This is starting to sound like the mafia where the strongest dog gets the job !!
Kooky Jetaime: ((Sorry, having an issue with a sim owner thats driving me up the wall. he's on a major power trip.. and he's threatening to shut down the sim if he don't get his way...))
Khamon Fate: And the subject of arbiration is posted on the BLOB in the ether which is kind of like air
Kooky Jetaime: ((Even though his way isn't in the best interest of the sim))
Khamon Fate: Does he own the sim Kooky?
Wyn Galbraith: You're in rare form today Khamon ;)
Cybernout Yoshikawa: ok, just thought i should ask, go on
Jessica Holyoke: yes, but we are most of the people who argue for and against such things
Khamon Fate: I'm rested from my SF vacation.
Savannah Glimmer: Will lifting the chat log ban allow recording of voice conversations too, which can be logged and posted?
Wyn Galbraith: LOL
Wyn Galbraith: Hope you had a good time.
Robin Linden: ok back.
Robin Linden: did you solve all my problems?
Khamon Fate: I was there all week for a convention
Kooky Jetaime: Khamon - he is..thats why I'm being driven crazy.... He wants the sim to succeed, however he's doing what he can to make it fail..... he's already cut our traffic in half and refuses to see its his actions that have done it.
Jessica Holyoke: no
Wyn Galbraith: Cheers, Made Khamon prez.
Khamon Fate: Yes, we like arbitration, you're going to lift the chat log posting ban, and you've decided to talk about y'alls internal conversations about those particle spewers
Aargle Zymurgy: Robin, before your meeting completely winds up, I was told by Harry Linden to ask you about games he didn't really investigate before returning them as they "appeared" to violate the TOS. How do I handle this knowing full well they abide by the rules, but no attempt is made to discern that?
Savannah Glimmer: yes Robin. Yes for Arbitration, No for chat log ban lift, and again, fly paper for the particle griefers. It would be nice to see them dangling on paper stuck in their own mischief.
Astarte Artaud: Hery did I miss something or did we decide on what we could do with this griefer ?
Savannah Glimmer: (my votes)
Robin Linden: I like that fly paper idea.
Khamon Fate shouts: VOTE YES FOR CHAT LOG BAN LIFTING
Robin Linden: got it Khamon. :P
Ciaran Laval: VOTE NO!
Wyn Galbraith: Yes for Arbitration, Yes to lift the chat log ban.
Robin Linden: Aargyle - let's take that offline.
Wyn Galbraith: People will have to know that chats are not private.
Aargle Zymurgy flips coins
Robin Linden: I need more information.
Aargle Zymurgy: ok, Robin.... not a problem at all.
Jessica Holyoke: can you log voice chats?
Khamon Fate: People should be told and understand that there can be no expectation of privacy in this wora'uld
Cybernout Yoshikawa: record
Savannah Glimmer: How about a compromise on chat logs. If on your own land, consider it private and have the location recorded in the logs.
Wyn Galbraith: I'm sure there is a way.
Ciaran Laval: I'd imagine you can record them
Kooky Jetaime: Instead of flypaper, how about a publically accessable cornfield... so we the good rezidents can pop in, and shoot the griefers stuck in the cornfield :)_
Khamon Fate: Oh and those things were shouting vulgarities in Slate using my name
Robin Linden:
Robin Linden: nice idea Kooky.
Khamon Fate: I was aghast
Tao Takashi: I'd actually like to be able to record them via the client (voice chats)
Astarte Artaud: Yea I got collered by that thing too
Jessica Holyoke: Khamon: as in slate.com?
Kooky Jetaime: have it be noscript/nobuild for them... good target practice :)
Tao Takashi: it even might show a RECORDING over my head
Khamon Fate: As in Slate the sim
Ciaran Laval: Hasn't Nobody Fugazi got a chat log recorder that you have to agree to before it works?
Wyn Galbraith got pelted with Bible quotes about the devil in Carmin.
Wyn Galbraith: *Carmine
Tao Takashi: and it would help with public meetings like the recent SL Architecture one where even LL had problems to record it ;-)
Savannah Glimmer: They should have to go to the cornfield and spend the same amount of time in their own griefings.
Tao Takashi: Yes I think Nobody once made such a thing
Kooky Jetaime: ooh that would be nice Savanah
Khamon Fate: I'm apparently a PN who hates edited edited edited and thinks Prokofy edited edited too.
You: VOTE YES
Robin Linden: Wow Khamon, who would have thought.
Khamon Fate: Well you can't vote no can you?
Khamon Fate: ha ha ha
Kooky Jetaime: And what did I miss on chat log banning...
Robin Linden: Ok. I think this meeting has sufficiently deteriorated.
Robin Linden: Is there anything anyone else wants to bring up?
Khamon Fate: Seriously, is there anything y'all can do about those rolling particle spammers?
Kooky Jetaime grumbles..what I Get for sleeping till 2:15...
Ciaran Laval: Ok how about if the majority present agree to chat logs then the chat log ban is lifted for that session?
Khamon Fate: We've joked around it, but I assume y'all *are* discussing it inhouse.
Aargle Zymurgy twiddles his thumbs
Art Lyle: particle spammers worries me too
Robin Linden: I don't know Khamon. Perhaps there's a way we can address the script call
Khamon Fate: k
Robin Linden: Yes we are.
Khamon Fate: Has it been an hour?
Jessica Holyoke: IF you know anyone who would like to speak in an inworld symposia regarding what to do if a government requests information on a resident?
Robin Linden: Not quite.
Khamon Fate: gosh time does fly
Jessica Holyoke: or suggestions there of?
You: Khamon did you know that the Lindens now have raised their goo fence thingie to stop some of the particles, I had a particle box put on my land last night, and instead of the Ninjas and goatses flying, it gave a script error about "cannot rez due to grey goo fence"
Wyn Galbraith: Must be jetlag Khamon.
You: I think they're on this
Robin Linden: Jessica - what do you mean?
Savannah Glimmer: Could this be something added to the profile, where you can opt in and out of private or public chat. For instance to come here, we'd have to opt out of private chat etc.
You: Jesscia, the answer is to say NO despite your ill-advised position on the Chinese dissidents, of course, I realize you have a duoble standard and would be happy to have Americans say no to Bush, even as you cheerfully rat on the Chinese
Savannah Glimmer: Then it can become a region setting.
Tao Takashi: should it be in the profile or should it be in the parcel ?
Art Lyle: there have been two particle spammers in this region in the last couple of week. the patriotic nigras. Is this somethign to worry about?
Robin Linden: Prokofy, please.
Ciaran Laval: Parcel would be great Tao
Khamon Fate: I don't think it's deteriorated, you just have to read the transcript a couple of times to get it all.
Jessica Holyoke: Due to some...words with Prokofy, I put it to the SLBA and I'm pulling together, with asked for help, for what to do if a government calls on you to release resident information, including what to do if the Chinese come calling
Kooky Jetaime: Ok Robin, heres a fresh topic... I love how we had a nice postmortem on the blog a few weeks ago, Sep 6th I think.. can we start and get all of them posted to the blog? pr maybe have a second Techy-Blog that puts that kinda stuff up? Leave it to the various studios who are tech-saavy
Khamon Fate: That's what happens when we all type frantically at once
You: So spam up the office hour with your event, Jessica, that's good.
You: you already got an answer from robin on this last time
Robin Linden: I agree Kooky. Let me find out.
Khamon Fate: We used to have a dev blog Kooky, I enjoyed that when it was updated.
Jessica Holyoke: I'm asking for speakers, people who are more knowledgeable than me, that would include you
Kooky Jetaime: Robin - I'm still curious to ask Zero what happened Saturday since its been basically ignored
You: I would never legitimize your bad-faith event by gracing it, Jessica.
Robin Linden: The problem is, Jessica, that I believe those situations will have to be dealt with as they come up.
Ciaran Laval: Jess and Prok get a room
Akasha Voom: :/
Robin Linden: I don't think we can make a blanket statement about how we would address such a request.
You: Ciaran, we still have free speech of sorts, get a jail cell.
Jessica Holyoke: but you don't think guidelines and suggestions in a public forum would be a bad idea?
You: /claps
Robin Linden: It would depend on what they ask for, and who asks for it.
Jessica Holyoke: and no, this was not brought up last week
Khamon Fate: Prok owns the rooms at the Flamingo Motel
Khamon Fate: He's pwnd the room
Robin Linden: You guys, it's not about free speech. Just courtesy.
Kooky Jetaime: Jess - once the courts are involved, its not a matter of choosing what to provide. They have to provide exactly what is asked for, no more, no less.
You: I hope LL will stay as FAR away from pronouncements on this under pressure from unseemly corporate attorneys as they stay away from pronouncements on banks and stock markets
Robin Linden: And Jessica, I don't think we can realistically talk about guidelines beyond privacy policies and the first amendment.
Jessica Holyoke: So you haven't discussed this issue with your in house counsel already? on what to do if you face that situation?
Khamon Fate: Yeah, if you lift the ban, we'll likely see more people banned from meeting and convos because they can't be trusted to be courteous.
You: OBJECTION
Jessica Holyoke: And didn't you corner Phil Rosedale prok on a pronouncement just like this?
Khamon Fate: But that'll be us taking the responsibility rather than you having to do it
Robin Linden: Honestly? Talked about what we would do SHOULD the chinese government come calling?
You: OBJECTION SUSTAINED
Wyn Galbraith: There is no reason to be rude and abusive during discussions.
Kooky Jetaime: Though I'll admit I have seen a service provided openly state that they will do everything they can to refuse to act on a court order.... including giving the investigated party as much lead time warning as possible before releasing any info.. I have no clue how they could legally manage that.
Kooky Jetaime: Prof - you can't rule on your own objections.
Aargle Zymurgy: Kooky, I think that would be regarded as obstruction of justice.
Khamon Fate: I wonder will LL stay based in SF, in the US?
Kooky Jetaime: Agreed Aargle - but I still found it interesting
You: Let's hope that when the time comes for LL to face it, that it will not be Anshe Chung that they are asked to blow into the Chinese government, and that they will not cave to pressure from corporate attorneys representing corporate American interests.
Jessica Holyoke: the options, what would happento you if you comply, what would happen if you don't? back during broadly offensive you said you would fight to keep a dissident's information secret, did you not know how at the time?
Khamon Fate: Just wondering, not reporting for the Pravda
Jessica Holyoke: She's german Prok
Khamon Fate: just Pravda
You: No she's Chinese
You: and German
Aargle Zymurgy: move LL to Aruba.
You: and has vulnerable Chinese workers
You: and customers
Khamon Fate: move LL to Aruba and invite Khamon to views
Khamon Fate: yeah
You: your eageriness to send them all to jail is unseemly, Jessica. Lawyers are supposed to help people; it's prosecutors who prosecute people? Did you learn that distinction in law school?
Jessica Holyoke: I never heard that Anshe uses Chinese labor
Robin Linden: This is too theoretical.
Khamon Fate: Anshe employees people in China
You: She has an office in Wuhan with 40 people, and they are not "chinese labour" but educated and talented people not in a sweatshop, but a Photoshop
Jessica Holyoke: And prosecutors aren't lawyers Prok?
Khamon Fate: ACS has an office in Wuhan
Savannah Glimmer: Not to topic hop but here is why I vote no on lifting the chat log ban, without giving us individual tools for it. Scenario...two people are having a chat about personal issues with nobody showing in 20m chat range. Yet someone on region has a listening device, posts private chat for whichever unfavorable reason. Same scenario for business conversations. People have to be able to talk in groups as this one, and not have their buisness posted somewhere.
Ciaran Laval: Anshe has a factory with workers working in conditions suitable for Germans but I believe it's in China
You: Did you pass the bar or get a job yet Jessica?
Jessica Holyoke: Did you miss the part where I'm at work Prok?
You: Did I miss the part where you didn't pass the bar yet?
Jessica Holyoke: THe client phone call part?
Robin Linden: The challenge Savannah, is that they will most likely post that chat on a 3rd party site, over which we have no control.
You: burst out laughing
Robin Linden: So the ban is useless in that context.
Robin Linden: Please take it somewhere else Prokofy and Jessica.
Kooky Jetaime: well, as someone else said.. assume that everything you say is being repeated elsewhere :)
Kooky Jetaime: if you want it private, IM
Ciaran Laval: IM's can be copied and pasted too
You: There is no place but Second Life for the anonymous avatar.
Jessica Holyoke: sorry phone
Aargle Zymurgy: that's my sim owner's advice to residents
Kooky Jetaime: but then you know its one of the people involved in doing it
Khamon Fate: The copybot client can hear your IMs
Robin Linden: How about we use voice next time?
You: imagine real life clients paying for divided attention like that, as much as $400 an hour!
Wyn Galbraith: All my time in SL I have never expected that I have any real privacy. It's the nature of the platform.
Khamon Fate: sorry, that's not funny, I'M JUST JOSHING
Kooky Jetaime: How bout not..
You: would that help make it more private, Robin? but it's possible to tape
Inara Marquette: ummm.... Robin... no thanks :)
Ciaran Laval: I'd go for voice
Savannah Glimmer: The ban secures that it wouldnt happen on SL blogs etc.
Robin Linden: No, just more civil.
Wyn Galbraith caps Khamon ;)
Khamon Fate: owee
Robin Linden: wow. a show stopper
You: Hardly, your capacity for being a sycophantic fangirl would only double in voice
You: and this is where I walk out in protest
You: these meetings are frigging ridiculous
Khamon Fate: Thanks for hosting Robin
Wyn Galbraith: B-bye!!! :D
Wyn Galbraith: LOL
Oh, come on, Prokofy, even you can do better than that: I'm half Portuguese and half German. But the story is not so simple: my grandfather was a German Jew, a WWII escapee. Originally, though, his family came from the Sephardite branch, and was very likely opressed under the RL Al Andalus. My grandmother was part Polish, and part Alsacian — when Alsace was in Germany — but she also got a French education. On my father's side, for the past 500 years, his family was very likely Portuguese — but no true Portuguese family hasn't its share of Jewish, Gypsy/Romani, African, and, of course, Maghrebian blood. Not Arabian, though!
To spice things up further, I have a Swiss aunt who is a frustrated hippie, so pretty much a left-wing tree-hugging ecologist. Alas, with age, she became softer and more conservative. My father was a social democrat who complained about the fascist regime, but kept his complains in private :) My mother is a right-wing capitalist, leaning towards Christian Democrats recently. My other uncle was German, born in Portugal, joining the Hitlerjugend in Portugal, then fighting in the Wehrmacht for Germany, getting caught by the Russians, getting shipped to Siberia, and coming back after a decade, still alive, and turning into a deep Anglophile (his English is almost better as his German these days), and marrying the daughter of a Jew.
When dining with my close RL friends, we discuss politics. This is nice, since we have neocons, Christian Democrats, liberals, social democrats, extreme-right, and sometimes extreme-left on the same table. Religion also goes through several stages, from Christian Fundamentalism towards Atheism, passing through Esoteric Christianism, Buddhism, and Taoism. Between my closest friends and family, we speak English, German, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Swiss, some Hebrew (well, my grandfather died) and some Russian. My hippie aunt used to be a polyglot and learned Arabian and Mandarin because she had fun with it. Of course, you can't learn those languages without learning a bit of their culture.
Furthermore, in a circle of about 20 miles around my home, I find the remains of palaeolithic, Celtic, Roman, Druidic, Early Christian (yes, from the Heresy times), Arabian, and Catholic architecture and culture. Some Roman bridges are still being used. Agriculture has its roots on Arabian development. Bazaars are common, but they follow the gipsy model; although we have Hindu-type bazaars and Chinese shops, too. The rest is pretty much influenced by a Catholic mindset.
So, having told you pretty much about all the mix of races, creeds, and political leaning of my family and friends, I hope to be able to provide you enough name-calling and personal insults based on my skin colour, race, country of origin, religion, and politics, that might last you a very long time, possibly longer than SL might be around :)
Perhaps this mix will give you some insight on why I'm usually considered to be a tolerant person myself. I'm pretty used to a certain mix of cultures and mindsets, and all are equally worthy. It takes, however, a certain mindset to be able to ascertain which are the good sides of all those cultures and incorporate them in your own society — and discard the bad sides. Obviously what is "good" and "bad" changes over time. 600 years ago, slavery was not unheard of around here; a hundred years later, people simply married their slaves, and after a few generations, there were no distinctive differences between people any more.
Thus, the whole concept of strictly labelling people and putting them in tight little boxes is utterly alien to a person like me. It doesn't make any sense. Conversely, of course, I'm also not offended for being insulted publicly with name-calling :) "Left-leaning Eurabian" indeed — LOL! You see, neither of those labels really stick to me; if you called me a "totalitarian Chinese-lover" I would be little offended, either (I admire the Chinese and their culture, even if I disagree with some of their methods).
So have fun figuring out more funny insults for me. I'm sure that your ability to create them is unequalled and without peer in the whole of the SLogosphere.
However, if there was any point you wished to make in the quoted chat transcript, I'm afraid I've missed it totally.
Unless, of course, you're in a personal crusade of some sort; well, learn your history better — they went out of fashion, oh, some eight centuries ago. We Christians are supposed to have learned a lesson.
Posted by: Gwyneth Llewelyn | September 18, 2007 at 10:49 PM
Ms. Fitzpatrick:
This is a formal request that you retract your statements on this blog and the one prior in which you accuse me of either being a "criminal", "stealing", violating criminal satutes, or having commited a crime. If you continue to be unreasonable in your reporting at the expense of my reputation, I will file suit against you for libel in the immediate future without further warning. Your libelous comments are without factual or legal foundation and if you disagree, then I will ensure that you have an opportunity to explain to a Judge exactly what penal code in which shtate you claim I am guilty of violating, and/or what court of law has found me guilty of any crime.
Sincerely,
Marc Bragg
Posted by: Marc Bragg | September 19, 2007 at 09:05 AM
Is this another threat to bring a defamation action "without foundation"? Do you think that it is coincidence that so many people believe you to have committed libel, or do you think that there is some sort of inexplicably complicated conspiracy between Benjamin and Marc Bragg?
Posted by: Ashcroft Burhham | September 19, 2007 at 09:25 AM
No, Marc Bragg, I stand by my characterization of your actions against Linden Lab as "theft" because they *are* theft.
I will not be retracting any thing involving my statement of an opinion about a public figure who has used an exploit in Second Life to steal a sim and resell it.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | September 19, 2007 at 10:07 AM
BTW, we all need to stand up to aggressive, unhinged lawyers like this who try to bully and harass people in virtual worlds for what they do, and for those who report on virtual worlds. It's a total travesty to think that someone reporting the truth about a heinous action in Second Life is then bullied and intimidated with a libel suit that has absolutely no credibility.
The documents that Linden Lab has produced at discovery showing chat logs illustrate that Bragg has knowingly and deliberately used an exploit to grab a sim for less than its known open bidding price on the auction, and then resold it, knowingly.
It's my right and indeed duty to characterize that as "theft". If we can't report what is right and wrong in Second Life, as we can in real life, and we are to be at the mercy of bullying, hectoring and even bludgeoning lawyers, we have no free Metaverse, but a dungeon.
Bragg used this gambit in dealing with the Lindens -- he thought he could strike hard and accuse *them* of a crime while he himself was committing theft. So he imagines that striking at me he can also cover his tracks. But making a false claim of libel is libelous, too.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | September 19, 2007 at 10:12 AM
Gwyn, oh come on, if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Surely you can't expect to go give a presentation on e-justice at a caliphate sim (!) without expecting to get a raised eyebrow or comment or two?
It's really very simple, and not a "racist label" or anything of the kind. You couldn't find it in yourself to say NO to this invitation to grace something you KNOW is sectarian and potentially worrisome. If you are NOT left-leaning and tropic toward Eurabianism, then..what's up?
I suspect you went there first and foremost because you sense that it was going to be "popular" or "much discussed" or "blogged about" or "politically correct and garnering the attention of tout le monde" and so you showed up, to make sure to see and be seen -- that's primarily the motive.
It's good that you've put up your entire pedigree there, but I'm sorry, it's just not persuasive and is really irrelevant. If you have releatives repressed under even the liberal caliphate types of the past centuries, then by all means, don't disgrace the memory of that relative by being uncritical about this resurrection and showing up to grace it. If you are Ms. World and Ms. Tolerance, you owe it to your many diverse relatives, roots, neighbours, friends, etc. etc. not to celebrate and embrace something of this nature, which inevitably happens by showing up. Just say NO as you ultimately said NO to Ashcroft and Manen in their other sectarian manifestations.
That's why I must marvel at, Gwyn you imagine that you aren't responsible for these sectarian horrors that go so badly in SL, though you are the ones touting them and engaging with them when they appear merely because you say they are "interesting".
Eurabianism may not be the appropriate moniker for you, I grant you. But...it's a work in progress to explain this curious tropism that left-leaning European intellectuals have for the oppressive strictures of Islamicism. It's like their tropism for communism. One marvels. Why would progressives or secular humanists fall for this crap? Why aren't they part of its critique? Are they really so blinded by the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of reasoning, and blinded so by hatred of America (and Israel) that they can't see reason???
You reject labeling. Yet...your acts are concrete in SL, and they involve celebrating and passionately participating in the leftwing experiment of Neualtenberg, even as you held religious sessions every Sunday in this largely secular experiment -- I guess you enjoy outward conformism to leftism, but then shaking things up a bit with a little religious stuff that runs cuonter to the grain of the average lefty.
You then promote Ashcroft way past the sell-by date, and then dropped him without comment. Ditto Metaverse Republic and CRAEDO -- you seem unable to say NO to every passing experiment you grace, and then you run giddily away from, saying, oh, that was interesting but I'm so busy, busy!
I find those with religious pasts can be the first and foremost to adopt secular humanist agendas and leftist agendas with the most amazing alacrity, Gwyn. You're different.
I must say I was surprised seeing your touting of the caliphate by gracing it with your presence, but then, as I said, your were likely mainly interested in showing up to be cool, more than anything else.
And while you may find you are so robust and diverse and richly-heritaged and just plain so *cool* that you resist labels, but I look at what you do, not what you say, and not even what you "are". I look at what you *do* in Second Life. And what you *do* is celebrate the leftwing, secular agenda more often than not (yeesh, all those hours logged in "thinking" with Extropia, for example!) and remain uncritical of oppressive ideologies. I marvel at this, given not only your personal history, but the history of your country and continent!
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | September 19, 2007 at 10:27 AM
>Is this another threat to bring a defamation action "without foundation"? Do you think that it is coincidence that so many people believe you to have committed libel, or do you think that there is some sort of inexplicably complicated conspiracy between Benjamin and Marc Bragg?
I have not committed libel. There is no foundation to this claim, it's merely an attempt to bully a commentator into silence. It's wrong. I have no knowledge of Duranske's relationship to Bragg, but I've seen that Duranske has gone incredibly light on Bragg. He's had no comment. He can't call it for what it is. Instead, he focuses on the Lindens retaining of chatlogs and the troubling consequences of this.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | September 19, 2007 at 10:40 AM
What is really interesting here is the "fictional character" loophole in the reasoning. Of course everyone who comes to this blog understands who is writing it. However because the author claims a pen name of "Prokofy Neva" (Which could technically be called a fictional character.) Any claim against the author would likely be laughed out of court. Then after that, you have to actually find slander and libel (preferably against the person who brought the claim). Still be careful Prok Mr. Bragg has shown himself to be the king if Second Life frivolous lawsuits, and that is the last I will say on the matter.
Posted by: Economic Mip | September 19, 2007 at 11:00 AM
I'm not a fictional character, Economic Mip, I'm a real person who has an avatar for their writing. And I would urge you, rather to caving to the "chilling effect" by these bullying lawyers, to go read up on Times v. Sullivan and First Amendment law in the United States.
I think people who threaten me with libel suits have absolutely no idea what they will be tangling with, and I'd urge them to desist.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | September 19, 2007 at 11:55 AM
Good Lord!
I defended Marc Bragg regarding the Lindens freezing of his assets (other than the ones he took using the exploit).
I said up and down he shouldn't have had all that other money taken (or frozen), and even gave some credence to his concept that when the Lindens say you "own" land, you should actually sort of own it.
But woah, have I been judging character wrong! WAAAYYYY wrong.
This guy is ready to sue anyone who even SUGGESTS that he took land using an exploit, or that he was a thief in any way.
So hey - guess what, I'm not suggesting it, Marc.
You are not a thief! You simply used an available back door to get land for practically nothing, and there's nothing wrong with that!
No, no. Nothing wrong with that. Allow me to go on record right here and now as saying you didn't really "take" anything! You are as pure as the driven snow in all things, Mr. Lawyer!
Because, see, I can't afford to defend against a lawsuit for giving my opinion of your case, either time-wise or money-wise.
You may not scare Prok, but you do scare me, that's for sure, and I'm not kidding.
MARC BRAGG IS NOT A THIEF AND STOLE NOTHING, AND DID NOT TAKE ADVANTAGE OF AN EXPLOIT.
(How's that?)
You know, I owe my life to lawyers, twice now. (Having to do with my children.) And I've always hated any lawyer-bashing that so often goes on.
But danged if I'm not starting to really, really hate the descent of litigious lawyers into SL.
I don't mean lawyers who happen to be here, and are helpful - I mean those who are here looking to sue LL, residents, and whoever else, or encouraging others to sue LL or each other, or trying to make a name for themselves by suing people right and left.
Of course, Marc Bragg, I DO NOT mean you. Marc Bragg is a stand-up guy, and never took a thing, you betcha!
coco
P.S. I don't think Marc Bragg took a thing, and Marc Bragg is no thief! (Have I said that enough now? Please don't sue me.)
Posted by: Cocoanut Koala | September 19, 2007 at 02:04 PM
Yes, I think Bragg has an airtight case as far as due process regarding confiscation of property is involved, and the rights even of someone who has stolen something not to have all his assets stripped.
And I don't think that hinges on having to find that the property is real or fictional, and I don't think that it hinges on the idea that Philip defrauded us with his "land" offer.
It's a simple principle, and as his own lawyer has said, it's like if you take a mismarked stock on an Internet page, the company doesn't have the right to then come to your home and take all your furniture.
What's clear is that these lawyers are trying to chill any discussion of the case in order to sway public opinion, and keep all the blogs and such sanitized and weighing in on their favour to create a pressurizing climate. And that's wrong.
You can read more here:
http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/28/jason-archinaco-interview-marc-bragg/
The tactic from the very beginning has been to act boldly and whack hard in order to distract from the very real and troublesome issues surrounding the exploit, and Bragg's use of the exploit to get the "hot" sim and re-sell it.
A year ago, I commented to a prestigious law journal that I thought it was use of an exploit and theft. No lawsuit threats then, because it was just cranking up. I've written a dozen times saying the same thing -- and no threat of a libel suit.
It only comes NOW because it's a tactic in the defense to countersue LL now for *Linden Lab itself* saying it was theft. So that means all blogs, all real media that have reported that LL said that may now *themselves* be accused of libel -- totally frivolous.
It is not a crime to speak about crime. It's a crime to suppress the speech about crime.
Here's what Duranske said in interviewing Bragg's lawyer:
"In the Amended Counterclaims of August 17, Linden Lab accuses Bragg of violating a California Penal Code Section 502. Specifically, 502(c)(1)(A). I’ll parse it to the part they’re focusing on: Bragg would be in violation if he “knowingly accessed” and “without permission … used any computer network in order to devise or execute a scheme or artifice to defraud.” Some commentators are pretty convinced that’s exactly what he did. What’s your response?"
I find his lawyer's defense of the notion that this is mere "backpaging" to fish around and find content that is "really in the open" to be frivolous and unpersuasive. It's not like a journalist backpaging and getting something on Schwartzenegger. I once found an extraordinary document like that myself totally by accident on state.gov and I immediately turned it into authorities, I didn't attempt to exploit it or take advantage of it. There is such a thing as morality and law write large.
The ethics are set very low by programmers, that's for sure, and lawyers are swift to race them to the bottom.
I'm also already really, really hating the descent of litiginous litigators into Second Life, it's a horror. And I say that not as a fanboy that gets all gushy about Linden Lab, which might do well to have a lawsuit or two thrown at it. I say that because the Metaverse cannot be turned over to these people to run on behalf of their own vain projects and their rapacious corporations.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | September 19, 2007 at 02:28 PM
I shall *very* much look forward to Marc Bragg v. Prokofy Neva - Marc, perhaps you could save some fees by making it a class action suit? You'd have no shortage of people to join you. Good luck!
Posted by: Ashcroft Burnham | September 19, 2007 at 03:41 PM
Prokofy, it might surprise you even more than I not only did not "accept an invitation", but that as a matter of fact, I asked Michel if I could hold a presentation at Al Andalus! The whole idea of doing a pre-launch of the Al Andalus sim coiciding with Michel's own rezday party, came afterwards. And of course the whole point was to use any pretext whatsoever to gather an audience!...
Economic, I'm afraid that under the Berne Convention, writing under a pseudonym is quite well documented and its legal consequences are pretty well studied in the past 140 years or so.
Posted by: Gwyneth Llewelyn | September 20, 2007 at 03:39 AM
I find that absolutely awful, Gwyn. I do hope you will find ways to explain this suicide of the European intellectual such as yourself, with such a Renaissance, liberal, Enlightenment background, willingly, nay, ambitiously, rushing to your death.
Have you *read* this sectarian mish-mash of socialism and Islamicism Manen has put together on Virtual Blind?! With its theory of "legal orientalism"? I think he probably has no clue how the world's powers do in fact negotiate these concepts of universality in ways that he doesn't seem prepared to admit.
There's to be a sliding scale on basic values that you supposedly hold dear? What would happen to your own lifestyle, your activities, your views, under such a regime? Have you no concern about this???
My mind just boggles that you could help such a thing like this with not only "dialogue," which should only be arranged on terms that don't confer legitimacy, but actual promotion and participation, and even horsing Robin Linden into it. I just don't get it. But then, you use this facile approach to every sectarian game in town that shows up asking for attention, eh? I've seen that happen before, with everyone from Traxx to Ashcroft. Ugh.
It would be one thing if this was a historical sim that was genuinely engaged in open scholarly inquiry from a variety of trends, disciplines, schools of thought.
But it most decidedly is not. It must be "based on Islamic principles". And the agenda is clear: the establishment of a caliphate.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | September 20, 2007 at 04:13 AM
Prokofy, why do you insist on making a storm in a glass of water? Don't people have the right to create their own themed sims and explore the possibilities of alternative universes, if they wish to have some fun role-playing it? Are the Caledonians also abhorrent to you because they desire to live in a place under strict Victorian, Puritan views, which are supposedly outdated, out of fashion, and to some degree, even sexist? (But they're so polite!)
Or are you really claiming that Michel Manen — a Christian as you; a RL public speaker for sustainability in a democratic environment — is actually pursuing this theme just because he wants to proselytise Islam, brainwash little children in believing that "terrorism is good" and that "all infidels should be subjected to the Jihad", effectively creating a school for little terrorists in the virtual environment of Second Life?
The next time I meet Michel, I'll ask him if Al Qaeda is behind his project, or if he's Bin Laden's alt :)
You might also turn your Crusade against Islam to, say, the Government of Morocco, who sponsored through their Tourism Office the very nice and educative sim of Casablanca, which provides a very interesting window on Maghrebian culture. I wonder why you never attacked them, and their builders — who, by the way, are your fellow Americans.
The day I'll see anyone converting to Islam because of Al Andalus or Casablanca, of course, I'll be the first one to retract my words ;)
Posted by: Gwyneth Llewelyn | September 20, 2007 at 06:23 PM
Oh, and slightly off-topic, things like Enlightenment and Renaissance came mostly because of the Jews and Arabs who stayed around in Europe after the downfall of Al Andalus. Mathematics, geometry, astronomy, philosophy, agriculture, and several forms of culture continued throughout Europe and became widespread just because the Andalusian civilisation was not completely destroyed, but absorbed in the process. In fact, we Europeans would never had found America if we didn't inherit the strong mathematical and astronomical knowledge developed during the golden era of the Al Andalus.
Sure, they have played their part in history, and are nowhere near to *currently* be a beacon of tolerance, culture, and civilization in the 21st century; but Michel Manen's proposal is a suggestion to reflect about history, a "what if" scenario rethought by contemporary minds.
Posted by: Gwyneth Llewelyn | September 20, 2007 at 06:31 PM
You got a lot of people to sue there, Marc.
Do you read the SL forums? You'll find that most people don't think just a whole lot of your using that "backdoor" like you did, or suing LL because of it.
Or try the SL Herald. Or anywhere. You have been written about all over the place. And a lot of those people - probably most - have said the same things Prok has.
That makes you are a public figure. You became a public figure when you sued LL for freezing your assets after you "bought" land using a "backdoor" to do so.
Being a lawyer, you should know that. Seems to me you went to a lot of trouble to BECOME a public figure, and not a particularly popular one. So take your criticism like a man.
coco
Posted by: Cocoanut Koala | September 20, 2007 at 06:33 PM
I will not respond to any bullying or harassment on this issue whatsoever, especially from someone who is not somehow "reluctantly" a public figure but has deliberately made himself one, constantly contacting the media.
Linden Lab has characterized the actions of Marc Bragg as "an exploit," it is a violation of the TOS and they have also claimed it is fraud. I've reported on it; and I support this characterization in my opinion on the matter. That is the right of the free press to do. It's not some sort of legal judgement; I'm not a lawyer. But it's my opinion on the matter.
People who evade URL bans merely begin to raise further suspicions about their motives and character.
I haven't made any erroneous statements in my sincere opinion and judgement; and I'm also accurately reporting the news that Linden Lab evidently has the same judgement in their declaration of a countersuit. That's my right: to report and express an opinion on matters of public interest.
This isn't an effort to "sensationalize" my blog, which isn't some top 20 blog or something, but is just my blog. It isn't some deliberate or malicious effort to libel someone knowingly, or to say something I don't believe or know is true. I've repeatedly given my opinion on this matter of what I believe to be true, including in a national law journal and in various blogs and papers for the last year. At no time until now was I asked to retract any statement -- and that's because evidently there wasn't a strategy until now to bully and harass people like me commenting and covering this matter.
When you see something is wrong, you have to say so, by the light of your conscience. It's wrong to plug in auction information against the normal operating features of the auction, when everyone knows the auctions used to open at $1000 (before the recent change to $1250), as a stated policy and practice and technically visible feature of the auctions. To thwart those known features with an exploit is not only to harm Linden Lab, it's to harm all of us who bid on the auction, as we, not using this exploit, and not even knowing of it, are at unfair disadvantage. And placing such "hot" sims at a decidedly lower price on the market, undercuts it in significant ways harming the economy.
This is a moral matter for the community, even if it never rises to the test of a legal matter for real life.
The fact that as soon as the Lindens found this out, they moved to close that loophole so it could not be "backpaged" any more to my mind constitutes proof that it was an exploit.
The chatlogs released by LL also contain further damning evidence of intent.
Once again I will remind everyone of my rules:
1. You must post with a recognizable SL name or RL name (or pen name from a recognizable blog.
2. You must refrain from incitement or causing of RL or SL damages against me.
Inciting or threatening libel lawsuits is RL damage, and I won't stand for it. It's unacceptable.
People who do that aren't blocked because their "freedom of expression" is blocked -- they can go to their own blogs. They're blocked because by inciting harm against me, they signal that they are not capable of rational, civil, and intellectual discourse. I'm not required to sustain their aggressive incitement and harm on my blog.
If someone wishes to serve me with a libel notice, they can do so in RL, and I'll be happy to respond, availing myself of my considerable network of lawyer friends, considerable number of media and human rights organization contacts, as well as relying on a number of deep-pocketed supporters and also making use of my considerable determination to preserve freedom of speech for bloggers.
Pick on someone your own size.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | September 20, 2007 at 09:51 PM
Gwyn,
I refuse to accept any sort of emotional blackmailing on this issue, as if I'm suppressing an innocent and open and sincere experiment. It's none of those things. It is perpetrated by someone who has tried no less than three such sectarian gambits in Second Life, as you well known, and failed at the first two.
And this caper isn't undertaken in some spirit of open intellectual inquiry, and some educational/historical approach that says, "let's rebuild the ancient 13th century community and buildings, and explore what they had to say, study their scholars, and examine what their contribution is."
That's not it at all. Instead it a) first insists that this dialogue take place *based on Islamic principles* -- a restriction that is vague and very easily subject to caprice in fact -- and b) second insists that a caliphate must be restored in real life.
Those two warning flags let you know that this is a sectarian gambit, trying to shame intellectuals easily guilt-tripped into forced tolerance (dhimmitude) to let it go by, and also to strong-arm the weak-minded lefty who never met a totalitarian system he didn't like if it bashed his domestic enemies.
Caledonians who roleplay Victorian
times don't have an ideological notecard that says it must be based on the Victorian principles of suppression of explicit sex and oppression of women or whatever would constitute. They don't insist that the Victorian era be installed in real life with all its oppressions. So don't be silly, Gwyn, it isn't the equivalent at all, and you know it!
And of course, 250 m2 about their sedate moors, the Caledonians are all busy cybering their hearts out on their decidedly 21st century poseballs, so it's hardly consistent.
And whatever RP there might be there, and for that matter, even the RP on a Gorean sim, I don't see those people calling for the restoration, or installation of this entity *in real life*. That's what is hugely problematic. Because it shouldn't be installed in real life. Nobody wants it. Do YOU want a Islamic caliphate installed in Europe???
Well, Gwyn, you will *get one* if you don't wake up and smell the coffee.
I don't see anything especially Christian" about Michel Manen, nor do I claim any special "Christianness" myself. He's a sectarian. That is, someone who ascribes to really elaborate, arcane, doctrinaire, rigid, and often hard-to-follow precepts as a matter of zealotry. That's not a foundation for any society I'd want in SL or RL.
If Manen is the *cough* free-thinking you imagine, not subjecting little children to brainwashing (and little adults), and not creating a climate of sectarian and extremist thought which creates a ready substrate for terroris, then...why does he insist this debate only take place "based on Islamic principles"? And why does his literature on his website insist on restoring the caliphate "in real life"? Huh?
I think it wouldn't hurt to ask Michel to a) denounce Al Qaeda, or at least differentiate his version of the caliphate he wishes to install from Al Qaeda's (or Hizb-ut-tahir's) and b) let us know why he even insists on their even BEING a caliphate if he is just this left-leaning sectarian of Christian heritage?! What the hell is UP with this, Gwyn?
If this feels like some sort of ideological test, that's fine, it is. I don't see why I need to come study with people who stack the deck in advance, or give a blessing intellectually to fake "study" which is in fact indoctrination.
If someone wants to have a study group, a Center for Inter-Faith Dialogue or whatever, they have that. But it's very telling that this was NOT done. And that's because extremist Muslims loathe the idea of intercultural or interfaith; they want their to be only one.
The government of Morocco's sponsorship of the sim Casablanca doesn't contain within it a call to a) have study of its culture on Islamic principles b) support the restoration of the caliphate. In fact, the RL Moroccan government, as one of the more liberal Muslim states, doesn't go around pressing the issue of restoration of the caliphate in the manner that extremist movements do.
Educative sims by governments like this are a public service, and part of the diversity we should all appreciate in Second Life.
But that's a far cry from the sectarian demands of Michel Manen. And you know it. Because if you didn't find him at some level objectionable, you would have long ago signed up for his compulsory sectarian groups in SL the last two times he did this, and not pled being "so busy busy!"
Fellow Americans don't prove shit, Gwyn. The issues are, and let me be a broken record on this:
a) the formation of sims that insist on only one set of principles as guiding principles for society and for debates about history and culture, without any recognition of the plurality of great traditions in the world, and indeed the superiority of some for free intellectual inquiry and democratic liberal society.
b) the unacceptable demand for installation of a caliphate.
I've noted with alarm how you've completely danced around these 2 issues now about 4 times in responding, never once expressing an opinion or reaction to them. That's what so troublesome; that's what is so suicidal about the European intellectual these days.
What you get from Al Andalus (but not likely from Casablanca) is more softening up of the leftoid European and other mind for the message of the nihilist and the terrorist. And that is the sectarian agenda all along -- control over people, infiltration of their world with a smuggled agenda of totalitarianism.
You might think that sounds pretty florid; I don't.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | September 20, 2007 at 10:10 PM
"Oh, and slightly off-topic, things like Enlightenment and Renaissance came mostly because of the Jews and Arabs who stayed around in Europe after the downfall of Al Andalus."
Gwyn, I would hope that you'd have sufficient education and intellect to recognize that this is a tendentious, and only partly-true statement.
Sure, these Jews and Arabs had their role. But who is Thomas Aquinas then, chopped liver?
The idea that you could imagine the Enlightenment and the Renaissance to come "mainly" from Jews and Arabs remaining after Al-Andalus is a) misinformed b) superficial and strange c) tends to incite then hatred of those figures needlessly, as if they alone as outsiders are excessively powerful and responsible for some cataclysmic change or something.
Go and read a standard Wikipedia entry, Gwyn:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment
The Enlightenment is a complex and diverse phenomenon spanning many countries. Go and read the list of all the great thinkers of the Enlighenment, Gwyn. Are these all Jews and Arabs? Huh? Are you daft? Oh, to be sure, Spinoza is; but what are you to make of Hume, Franklin, etc? Is Voltaire, French and educated by the Jesuits, a crypto-Jew? Is Roussea, the author of the concept of the social contract and French, a crypto-Jews as well in your view, Gwyn? After all, he had a father named Isaac, who was a watchmaker!
Do you imagine we are to go through with a magnifying glass and look for these ethnic and religious footprints, Gwyn?
I mean, come on, this is one of the wackier things I've heard in my day, and makes me even MORE alarmed for the problem of the European mind, that someone like you could come to believe this.
Mathematics, geometry, astronomy, philosophy -- all of these fields had their roots in eras pre-dating
Andalusian civilization, Gwyn. Surely you're familiar with that!
Did Europeans "discover" America? Or was America "found"? There you have it.
The what-if scenario isn't a tolerant or open-ended one, if it is to be based "on Islamic principles". This nostalgia for golden ages that aren't so golden seems suspect in my mind.
One thing that you should realize by now is that the project of trying to rehabilitate the excesses of Islamicist fundamentalism by harking back to this particular golden age such fanatics in fact don't themselves find inspiring, is that it is doomed to being a sectarian exercise.
It's like those who endlessly hark back to the Petrograd Soviet of 1917.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | September 20, 2007 at 10:31 PM