Open Source=Closed Society

Not surpringly, most people don't understand what I mean by the expression "Open Source=Closed Society" -- although I've written on this before, and in my travels, even discovered various fathers of the open-source movement itself who basically came to the same conclusion. The problem is that while technically "open," only tekkies can come in. And not even all tekkies. Even Nobody Fugazi was forced to say, "Hey, what's the secret handshake?"

The first thing that people begin to object when I explain that OS=CS is that oh, but the Lindens have a published blog about it from Zero Linden. Oh, but there are groups and meetings and office hours and anyone can come. Oh, but there's a wiki. But...do you REALLY think wikis work to get a lot of participation? I mean, could we get our heads out of our asses here, people? How many people have taken part in any SL Wiki to date? Go ahead, count them. And look how many essays are in them. Well? See my point? Same for the JIRA. How many of the leaders -- oh, the 1,000 who make more than $1,000 a month as Philip calls them? -- how many of those doers do you see on the wikis, the JIRAs, the blogs? So please, get a grip. That's fake. That's not how you get input. It's only the way for geeks and fanboyz to put in, not even the 10 percent who care and contribute. For that, you need normal, threaded forums. They should be opened back up.

The Sutherland Dam meetings I have are open to the public. But they aren't open to griefers. And that means the frequently flyers who come in each time to grief aren't given a fresh chance, and when they come back on their obvious alts with the same groups like "The Prokofy Fan Club," they don't get to participate. And that's why I moved it, and will likely have to move it again. There is a certain kind of leftist or IRC tekkie who gasps at the idea of banning anyone pre-emptively and imagines this is censorship! But...people who disrupt meetings censor them far more, by not letting people speak, heckling the organizer, putting out particles, pushing objects into the space, etc. If you have any doubts about what this particular set were up to, you had merely to follow us to the next venue, where they crashed again using God-stalking mode or sympathizers like sean Voss (whose SL guide I criticized, and who has therefore made common cause with them); where they tried to push in giant objects, sent particle birds flying in, taunting in chat and IMs, and flew around on Governor Linden land next door after being banned wearing an avatar made from my RL picture to look exactly like me from RL. Now if you think that's ok, let me suggest that if it were done to YOU, I bet you would freak. That it is done to me routinely; that I'm expected to "take it"; that the Lindens do NOTHING about it; that this abusiveness and intolerance and hatred is meant with cries of "but your picture is on the Internet and linked by you in the New York Times" -- that's part of the dysfunction of Second Life -- it's not normal.

Malburns Writer: hI pROKOFY
Tara Yeats: Hi Prokofy
You: hi
Malburns Writer: Event was not in listings so found location
Dimitrio Lewis: hi all!
You: well I just got it to save right finally
Malburns Writer: finding you another matter - lol
You: I think it had a URL in it that didn't save or something
Adiatha Bishop: Hi all
Aquarius Paravane: Absinthe - former neighbor!
Aquarius Paravane: hi
Tara Yeats: Hiya Yuu! LTNS
Frankie Antonioni: Hey.
Yuu Nakamichi smiles and waves
Dimitrio Lewis: heya Scope!
Scope Cleaver: Greetings.
ManqoQhapaqInca Qunhua: Good evening ladies and gentlemen
Tara Yeats: Hi Manqo
You: Hi everyonebody
You: have a seat on the benches
JenzZa Misfit: hello everyone -- we will be setting up the tofu buffet shortly ** ack ***
At0m0 Beerbaum: Still rezzing for me
You: If you haven't read the Lindens' blog post on this subject, here is the URL
Geoffrey Heartsdale: whoa
Scope Cleaver: Hi otakup
otakup0pe Neumann: g'day
otakup0pe Neumann: hey dimitrio, prokofy
Dimitrio Lewis: hey p0pe :)
Unmitigated Gall: Another one of Prokofy's DAM meetings... hehe
ManqoQhapaqInca Qunhua: Good night, Miss Yeats
JenzZa Misfit: Prokofy -- I hope you can break down the facts of that blog post ( it seemed to be veiled in smoke)... I am relying on your wisdom <--- does this look odd ?
otakup0pe Neumann: Was that link to the Blob post or your post Prokofy ?
otakup0pe Neumann: I read parts of teh LL post, haven't seen yours yet
JenzZa Misfit: lol
Unmitigated Gall: i didn't get the link in question
You: Good evening! Time for the weekly discussion at the Sutherland dam on the economy. Tonight's
http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/09/19/slgarchwg1/
You: well that's because I keep freezing being on Vista and Nvidia be patient
You:
http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/09/19/slgarchwg1/
otakup0pe Neumann: Does SL even officially run on Vista yet ?
Trebesan Clary: yes
Trebesan Clary: it does
Ralewyn Gray: Quite.
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: I'm running it on vista
otakup0pe Neumann: cool.
Unmitigated Gall: does SL officially run?
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: until a month ago it had problems with my dual processor but it works fine now
otakup0pe Neumann: trebesan nice effect
Malburns Writer: am attempting to run on vista - hence crashes
JenzZa Misfit: Dear Santa , hold up on that new PC .. k ? thx regards, JenzZa
You: Here's my pod cast on open architecture and it has 5 links to other interesting blogs, like the original Zero Linden office hours, a post by the 2nd Sex gal which is interesting, my article I put on metaversed about the questions for "metanomists" etc
You:
http://metaversed.com/20-sep-2007/second-rant-9-scaling-secnond-life
Sierra Janus: Linux client runs like a dream, hardly any problems compared to Windows.....and it's Alpha software as well
You: Now, this is an open public meeting on the economy usually held here Friday nights it is PUBLIC and ON THE RECORD
At0m0 Beerbaum: just lacks voice
You: and the transcripts are usually published so if you are a net nanny, a fanboi that feels you have to AR to the Lindens, or whatever, then either don't talk or run crying home
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: I'll have to start coming... didn't know about it before
You: and if you don't like me expressing my opinion and you feel the need to heckle, do it on your own time
otakup0pe Neumann: heckle is such a strong word.
You: the first order of business is to expel the Patrionic Nigras/b/tards
otakup0pe Neumann: that sounds like a closed society to me.
Nidol Slazar: We are here but to listen ma'am.
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: sorry if this is off topic, but techincally speaking, when ginkgo collapsed under a bank run, along with other banks when gambling was outlawed, that was a sign of a depression, right?
You: yeah well these are people who crash my sim and harass my tenants and lose me business
Rukh Zeno: Step 1: Censorship, Step 2: Open public discussion?
Nidol Slazar: I do no such thing.
You: so unfortunately I have them here harassing me again, 3-4 of them
At0m0 Beerbaum: I personally have never talked or even interacted with any of your tenants
You: so because we have Governor Linden land here they can sit on it and heckle
Sierra Janus: I think it had more to do with a drop in consumer confidence in that entity only
sean Voss: i only heckle you at other meetings, this floor is all yours :P
You: as they've done before
Nidol Slazar: I don't plan on heckling you.
You: IM me to get the OTHER location for this meeting with no Gov Linden land next to it
At0m0 Beerbaum: me neither
Ralewyn Gray: Wait what?
otakup0pe Neumann: ugh
otakup0pe Neumann: that sounds complicated
Ralewyn Gray: I say, just what did we do?
At0m0 Beerbaum: in fact this is the first time I've ever met you
You: these folks all lying about heckling in fact are frequently banned, have alts that crash sims and use racist and anti-Semitic attacks in SL, so I don't feel I need to provide a forum for them
otakup0pe Neumann: how about we move if they actually act up
At0m0 Beerbaum: thought it'd be interesting to see the infamous prokofy neva in person. so to speak.
Mace Shemesh: Wait what happen? I was in another window.
JenzZa Misfit: what what ?
Ralewyn Gray: Such an angry and rude woman.
You: IM me if you are interested in having a discussion about the economy, and not about Eddie Haskell : )
Ralewyn Gray: And we've never done that.
You: otakupOpe, these are you friends? maybe you could tell them to go home or something
Ralewyn Gray: I say, someone ask her why she had me banned for saying hello to her.
Nidol Slazar: This is my main alt. I've not been banned because I don't not partake in such childish antics.
Ralewyn Gray: Truth.
ManqoQhapaqInca Qunhua: lol
otakup0pe Neumann shrugs
Nidol Slazar: do not even
otakup0pe Neumann: i see people i recognize
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: what's the topic tonight?
You: can you help TP the other people
Cocoanut Koala: give me names
Tara Yeats: sure
JenzZa Misfit: sure .... if i have names I will
You: sorry but it's really hard to shake loose those goons, they are impossible
You: and there's Linden land there and they sit on it after being banned
Tara Yeats: LOL - no need to put up with it, Prok - good move
Cocoanut Koala: hiya frankie!
You: Let me fix these benches
Scope Cleaver: Hi coco
Malburns Writer: ah
Cocoanut Koala: heya dimitrio!
Dimitrio Lewis: hey :)
You: Hi Mal
Frankie Antonioni: So how Prokofy and b tard members were there?
You: Dmitrio some of those little retards are your friends so please do not bring them here
Frankie Antonioni: Many.
You: well there was Atomic, Ralewyn, Tizzers, and about 3 others, all frequent flyers
Cocoanut Koala: this happened at the other place?
You: they're all banned in fact but sat on the Gov Linden land
You: yes I get them all the time, they are the ones flying around with the Star of David and the "jews of SL" and the "nigger this and that" all the time
You: they then act innocent as if they never do this
You: it's often their alts which are obvious alts
Cocoanut Koala: the act gets old
You: and Tizzers or one of them will sort of herd them around and fly around and act innocent
Cocoanut Koala: on the SL H your lawyer guy
You: anyway, yes, old act
Tara Yeats: typical snert behavior
Cocoanut Koala: is busy saying that
Cocoanut Koala: this new burka thing
You: lawyer guy?
Cocoanut Koala: where people drop in
Cocoanut Koala: yes, what is his name? not marc bragg but the other one
You: let's see who else was thee
Cocoanut Koala: where people drop in unexpected at things with the burka outfits on, like at this religious meeting
Frankie Antonioni: Ben Noble.
Cocoanut Koala: and this guy benjamin or whoever posted that it wasn't really griefing
Cocoanut Koala: was the essence of his post.
Cocoanut Koala: like we're also supposed to drop what we're doing and sit around and admire griefer "performance art" instead all the time.
Cocoanut Koala: feels like we're in church!
Cocoanut Koala: i'm all dressed up, so is Jenza
Cocoanut Koala: we're waiting for the sermon!
Cocoanut Koala: both frankie and dimitrio have on hats . . .
Tara Yeats: LOL Cocoa
Cocoanut Koala: please feel free to pass your offering directly to me!
Tara Yeats is definitely not dressed for church! LOL
Dimitrio Lewis: everyone should have a hat
You: Ok sorry this is taken awhile to find people and freezing every 10 minutes lol
Cocoanut Koala: give me one then, dimitrio!
Tara Yeats: do I have to?!
You: anyway, I found the comments on the blog interesting, some people had the exact same concerns I had
You: also what was fascinating is that without seeing the wiki at all, I predicted exactly what they would get their hands on
JenzZa Misfit: back **scrolling**
You: in other words, the wiki about open architecture doesn't even talk about widgets, protocols, server code this or that
You: instead it has topics like: currency, regions, land, etc
Cocoanut Koala: this just MAKES the outfit
You: it's amazing to read, someone has already completely roadmapped it out
You: probably that was Zero or Rob Linden, they've filled it all in
You: and of course on a wiki you can "add stuff" but it's always a challenge and it's not easy to find and have a coherent discussion
You: so I put in a comment urging them to open up the forums again
You: have you noticed that the forums are essentially already opened as residents answers and residents websites is like the old general?
Cocoanut Koala: well they sorta are
Dimitrio Lewis: I need to start posting on the forums again
Cocoanut Koala: depends on strife's mood
Cocoanut Koala: OMG PROK
Cocoanut Koala: you're a HIGH PRIEST!
Cocoanut Koala: This IS church!
Cocoanut Koala: hail mary full of grapes
Cocoanut Koala: am i crashed
Dimitrio Lewis: nope, we're praying
JenzZa Misfit: no ...but I might be
Cocoanut Koala: hehe
Cocoanut Koala: OH GOD
Cocoanut Koala: the end is sooner than i thought!
Cocoanut Koala: look who just came in!
Tara Yeats: Coc - think it's actuallyl our lady of perpetual motion
JenzZa Misfit: Tree ! ltns <-- hey that rhymes
Tree Kyomoon: hello folks!
Dimitrio Lewis: heya Tree!
JenzZa Misfit: in fact I dont see much of you now , even ............
You: Well Tree got to be in this special tete a tete with the Lindens
ManqoQhapaqInca Qunhua: Good evening
Tara Yeats: Hieya Tree
Malburns Writer: hi tree
Tree Kyomoon: yes I was there in SF
You: why not give us a recap
Tree Kyomoon: hello all
Cocoanut Koala: i never saw a skeleton before
Tree Kyomoon: It wore me right out!
Tree Kyomoon: well, we got there and met each other, everyone looked so boring in their meat puppet avatars
JenzZa Misfit: lol
Tara Yeats: LOL
Malburns Writer: lol
ManqoQhapaqInca Qunhua: lol
Tree Kyomoon: and the office is really big and dark, they are all in one huge open room
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: hi
Tree Kyomoon: I could never work like that
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: thanks for the tp
Tree Kyomoon: no windows
You: yeah they have that hippie philosophy I guess
Tree Kyomoon: the office looks cool enough, but that part of SF is pretty seedy
JenzZa Misfit almost had a little tea out the nose there
You: no windows??
Tree Kyomoon: bums everywhere
Tree Kyomoon: the rooms next to the windows are all "board rooms" so the workers have to be in a huge open space
Tree Kyomoon: we had a big indian dinner which was nice, then I went back to the office and found Andrew doing all the dishes by himself at 8:30 on a friday night
Tree Kyomoon: (andrew is in charge of the physics engine) he said he was going to fix a couple bugs then go home while the rest of us went out to a bar
Avatar ejected.
Tree Kyomoon: it was interesting, but overall not a particularly exciting office. I feel much better being back in SL
You: Andrew responded to our blogs about the business plan for SL
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: ok, so how will the grid effect the economy?
You: did you sign an NDA Tree?
Tree Kyomoon: Yes I did
Tree Kyomoon: some things I can talk about and others I cant
You: It will destroy it on the way to preserving it, like a village in Vietnam.
You: ok then so you're telling us fluff and not substance
Tree Kyomoon: but I can assure you, the stuff I can't talk about is not very interesting
You: yes and why do you think that's moral?
Tree Kyomoon: all the stuff I can talk about is posted on the architecture site
You: here we all pay tier and sweat our guts out here working and doing stuff and we cannot be in on vital decision making about how we will be effected.
Cocoanut Koala: i really get tired of that, i really do
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: url? (sorry, I missed it earlier, I think)
You: I find that personally rephrehensible.
Cocoanut Koala: me too, but i do appreciate hearing the fluffy stuff though!
Tree Kyomoon: well they cant invite everyone there, it just wouldnt work
You: I'm lagging too much to go back and post all that Bubble, go on the Blog and also go on metaversed.com there are lots of pieces there on this subject
Tree Kyomoon: too many people talking at once
You: well that's why they should publish more and hold more frequent inworld meetings
Tree Kyomoon: I think they are going to increase these kinds of meetings
Cocoanut Koala: but - who can go?
Tree Kyomoon: they are going to I think prok
You: this idea that you make a 3-d virtual world that you can only substantively talk about by leaving it and going to san fran and having chilled crab is for the birds
Dimitrio Lewis: was it separate from sl views? that was this month too
You: it bites
Tree Kyomoon: Honestly I have no idea why they picked me, other than I go to the office hours a lot and post a lot of comments/jiras
You: so process is at issue, but more the perspective
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: ok, so give us what you have: what specifics about the grid do we know? if we literally know nothing then this is going to be a short discussion
You: yeah well I go to the office hours too but you'll be sure they won't be inviting me : )
You: Bubblesort you could *read what was posted already* instead of fuming
Tree Kyomoon: honestly, having been there, I think the office hours are more productive generally, alhtough there is something to be said for physically meeting people
You: you're asking us to give you the Cliff notes to everything that people have talked about
You: I just gave you links, go glance at them
You: we do know a fair amount at this point
Cocoanut Koala: they why do they hold them, tree?
Cocoanut Koala: *then
You: we know that they are actively discussing closing the Lindex
Cocoanut Koala: they are???
Cocoanut Koala: OH NO
You: because they can't justify having a limited licensed use of a currency on a grid owned not only by them
Tree Kyomoon: I think its just because they are all people, and they like to see a few faces now and then
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: sorry, didn't mean to fume... I'm kind of lost, I guess... I am not familiar with the topic... going afk to google some things
Cocoanut Koala: i think that is part of it, tree
Cocoanut Koala: but, was this a Second Life Views, or something different?
You: well don't google Bubble read the URLs I just gave you: the official Linden blog open architecture comment of a few days ago
You: or few posts ago
Tree Kyomoon: they didnt mention anything about closing the index while I was there, I even met personally with Peter Millionsofus, who started the lindex
You: and metaversed.com where my articles and an entire site opened up called Metanomics
You: yes I know him well
Cocoanut Koala: Peter MillionsofUs started the Lindex?
You: but read the Wiki, they always hide stuff like that in wikis
You: yes
Cocoanut Koala: it is difficult to keep lindens straight from residents
Tree Kyomoon: if anyone is interested I can give you a speech Peter gave on the history of the lindex
You: He's Lawrence Linden
You: yes I'd love to see that
Cocoanut Koala: bleh
You: we had him come and speak once at the dam
Cocoanut Koala: bleh on the lindens being residents and having businesses within their business they have for others.
Tree Kyomoon: anyone else?
Cocoanut Koala: was that a second life views thing you went to, tree, or something else?
You: I think in this case, it's good that a smart person like Lawrence is in the private sector in MOU and not frustrated at the Lab
You: he went to the private group on the open architecture
Tree Kyomoon: no I went to the millionsofus office while I was there in SF
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: I"m interested in that, tree!
You: open architecture needs a closed discussion, always
Tree Kyomoon: their office is actually in a cooler place I think
You: Peter, if he were running this railroad, wouldn't close it
Cocoanut Koala: so - the millions of us guy is no longer a linden?
You: but think about how Russia or Haiti or whatever works: dollarization always happens with closed societies with nonconvertible currencies
Tree Kyomoon: no he is the technology VP for millionsofus
You: that have presidents who print currency out of thin air, who have black markets in currency, etc
You: already the major purchases of SL are all made in PayPal
Tree Kyomoon: they didn't mention the lindex at all while we were there
You: so what is the Lindex for? beads for the natives coming to Club Med
You: well Tree, could you READ THE WIKI
You: that's where it is all laid out
Frankie Antonioni: So how should LL put out the L$?
You: a huge big-ass plan
You: on every topic
Tree Kyomoon: oh one thing though....all over the office there are screens everywhere
You: on regions, on rejecting agents to readings, on linking regions, everything
Tree Kyomoon: showing graphs of resident overall satisfaction, crashes etc.
Tree Kyomoon: they are constantly monitoring all our woes and trying hard to keep the satisfaction up, that is what seems to drive them more than anything
Cocoanut Koala: that's good!
Cocoanut Koala: that's good!
Frankie Antonioni: Somebody is looking in the window.
Tree Kyomoon: that is all philip talked about to them, constantly checking on bugs, reporting bugs etc. He is obsessed
You: Geoffrey Heartsdale
Malburns Writer: positive there then
You: crap
Cocoanut Koala: oh god
You:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Brainstorming#Currency
You: there
You: now Tree, please stop saying, oh, but they aren't talking about it
You: because of course they are
Tree Kyomoon: yes overall it was kind of a dark over worked, stressed out place full of really nice people with significant sleep deprivation
You: and of course their alibi is oh, but it's just brainstorming
You: but...it's brainstorming by the select few, it's pre-cooked alerady as you can see
Tree Kyomoon: I didnt say they werent talking about it, we just didnt hear about it at all when we were all there
Tree Kyomoon: its news to me
You: well because you didn't think: "Oh, what happens to my stuff when they do this"
You: it will be rather hard to get it off the rails, that's always the tactic
You: because you are not wired to think that way
Dimitrio Lewis: That's a resident maintained article
You: and that's the problem
Tree Kyomoon: There were a few people there yes, but they had participants in world, and they opened it up and posted all our notes to the wiki within 3 days of the meeting
You: working with non-technical leaders in the community is never fun for game gods, I realize, but something like this has to have some sort of interface, some strategy
You: and all Zero can say is "we always try to migrate the world when we engineer"
Tree Kyomoon: so its pretty transparent and open to participation, any of you can feel free to add to the wiki
Cocoanut Koala: this was different from Second Life Views?
You: Tree, that is utter, unadulterated bullshit
You: because wikis are engineered precisely to shake people loose, to keep them off
Tara Yeats: Prok, as I read that wiki section, it sounds more like early fact-gathering not decision-making
You: they are hard to edit, hard to make stick -- anyone can undo them
You: people lock, cross out, undo, and often don't even sign their work
You: Tara, you have to realize how the Lindens work
You: they always feign that it is "discussion"
Tree Kyomoon: oh yes,that is correct, not decisions were made at all, just lots of discussion
You: the "discussion" phase always follows their own internal decision counsels
Tara Yeats: Prok - I've worked in enuf orgs to have a pretty good idea, I think
You: discussion is really "softening up the public" and "making the fanboyz feel as if they are participating"
You: well I've worked in THIS one
Tree Kyomoon: Quite a few lindens have a lot of respect for you, Prok
You: and it is never in good faith, never
Tree Kyomoon: Prok came up a lot at the meetings, and positively
Tree Kyomoon: particularly by Robin
Avatar ejected.
Tara Yeats: my question is ... how would you describe your biggest concern at this stage?
You: well that's good, I'm glad
Frankie Antonioni: Do you hear music.
You: but your friend Robin is the one who banned me permanently from the forums and blogs
You: appreciate is as appreciate does
Tree Kyomoon: My biggest concern right now is all these blowhards writing poorly researched and outright false articles about SL in mainstream media
You: I've outlined my concerns in the pieces I've done
Tree Kyomoon: people who come in world for 5 min then write a really stupid article on SL
You: why it's a free press, let them, thank God for the free media
You: let them let them
You: they are essentialy on point
You: that this world doesn't have really a purpose that is demonstably good in real life
Tree Kyomoon: I agree, we should let them, but it would be nice to see prok's articles get more distribution
You: and that's the challenge, they need to realize that
Tree Kyomoon: and writers like him
You: and naturally people are skeptical and treat it like Baptists would playing cards and dancing or whatever
Tree Kyomoon: people with a more educated view
You: My main concern is that the economy that in fact attracts the big businesses with the prospects of selling to avatars
You: rests on a very fragile thing
Cocoanut Koala: I love hearing about this, Tree, but i've got to run cover a place for Prok's paper
You: which is our sweat equity
Cocoanut Koala: see y'all later!
You: see you Coco thanks
Dimitrio Lewis: nice seeing you Coco :)
Tree Kyomoon: ok thanks for chatting Coco!
You: and the wages are not high enough to sustain people once the losses become too great
Tree Kyomoon: Oh I met Coco linden too, she is really sweet
You: the economic slump that has followed the invasion of big corporations and the end of casinos is the first herald of this
JenzZa Misfit: exactly , prok .. why are the corps so easily " fleeced " into thinking avatars want to buy their RL products .. this just dumbfounds me
You: the adult verification stuff will also shake lose some
You: well look at the use cases on the wiki
You: case in point
You: tekkies love to sit around and pontificate about use cases
Tree Kyomoon: I agree Prok, Id like to see more money for workers in SL, particularly artists and social support workers
You: and the use cases are: real life stores selling real life goods
You: that really torques me
JenzZa Misfit: fleeced ::: action word ::: see SHEEP
You: I'm giong to have to now deliberately go on that retarded wiki
ManqoQhapaqInca Qunhua: I agree Tree
You: and write in there : virtual store selling virtual good
You: see that's where we're at with this
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: hmmm... if open architecture attracts more users then the economy will grow... more investment spending will occur... but nobody has confidence in the linden savings institutions right now... do you think they will forego the linden and go straight to real currencies?
You: having to restore brick by brick what they are stepping on
You: investment in WHAT
You: in meta grid usage
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: in creating goods and services
You: which is universities, corporations, hospitals making private grids
Tree Kyomoon: I dont really think a store selling goods is the only business model for SL, its just the first/earliest
You: and that is a meta economy that serves the Lindens and serves their chosen metaversal service agents
You: who are the very folks signing all the NDAs
You: that does not put peas in our pot
Tree Kyomoon: to me, the idea of login-less grid viewing is the biggest thing
Tree Kyomoon: biggest opportunity for us residents
You: so if the strategy is to keep us merely as colourful natives, so that visiting firemen can see us on our animations, then say so
JenzZa Misfit: why would avatars have any interest in things that do not pertain to their virtual life ? NO BRAINER
You: not everyone would want to play
You: no, it's a big opportunity for coders and designers who can work for these big entities
Tree Kyomoon: imagine being able to build Facebook apps inside SL for example
Malburns Writer: communication services is more likely a better future model
You: it's not a big opportunity for the average consumer or the small business
You: that's a 10 percenters interest
You: not a 90 percenters
You: imagine bullshit
You: it's a rarified group of people who will fuss with that
You: the rest are the consumers and the amateur or semi-professionals
You: the lion's share of people now
Tree Kyomoon: well, 10 percent create the infrastructure, (Tekkies) then the 90 percent can use it to make money
You: so you will be shaking them loose and it will be b2b economies then
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: they'll have to make the httprequest command more powerful... it's difficult to do anything with the small amount of information you get from it
You: no, you don't make money off somebody getting a job in a MDA and working for Coke
Tara Yeats: major understatement, Bubble
You: you merely apply to win the prize in their contest
Tree Kyomoon: we're still building the pipes prok. SL is still a "skeleton"
Dimitrio Lewis: Look at the very long-term future, 20+ years from now... you'll be able to connect your brain to a virtual world and experience all five senses and influence it like you were playing God. That's where this is headed.
You: is that what you mean?
You: no thanks Dimitrio
Tree Kyomoon: Ive been after Zero to make LLHTTPRequest support cookies/sessions for example
You: I'm not interested in having your brain or my brain made eternal on the Internet, that's a grave fallacy
Tree Kyomoon: header support
You: I never though as a young person 25 years ago that That Hideous Strength could actually happen in real life, it sickens me : (
Tree Kyomoon: You need some pepto bizmo?
sean Voss: sorry but how is this different than the web today, the masses are simply users with a small group of people heading up the development? is your concern that the avg citizen will be lost here becuase of this?
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: just at least increase the capacity... right now I'm learning xml just to make it useful... have to translate web pages thru my xml code to get useful data
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: and the memory problems on scripts are maddening... I can't even tell how big a script is... I understand why the problem is happening there, but it's driving me nuts lately
Dzonatas Sol: I see combining the servers and viewer with webservices as a powerful next step. Are people afraid of this move?
Tree Kyomoon: bubble thats awesome
Tree Kyomoon: I totally support that
You: what I think is hilarious on this wiki is that once again they scramble to figure out how to keep scripts from copying but they shrug about textures and objects copying ROFL
Tree Kyomoon: I dont know, I dont seem to be able to get a straight answer about the http request header stuff
Malburns Writer: no - hooking the viewer with web services is what we need
Tree Kyomoon: anybody could remake copybot. Sorry guys, but its totally possible. I met the guy who did it.
Avatar ejected.
Tree Kyomoon: its lib second life, the tools are just there
Nidol Slazar: Texture copying can't be helped, it's clientside
Dzonatas Sol: Apache has produced a standalone http request library, but i've only study the docs to hook it into the viewer
Tree Kyomoon: unfortunately, trying to protect SL stuff will be as hard as trying to protect music
You: typical dumbass griefer extremist remark
Tree Kyomoon: inventory I mean
Nidol Slazar: lmao
Nidol Slazar: Textures are loaded into memory
Avatar ejected.
Ursula Cinquetti is Offline
You: um we know all that
You: duh
You: and yet there are ways to prevent theft, ranging from social to technical
Tree Kyomoon: I mean, sorry, but if your business model is based on that, you might be out of luck as inventory is all easily copyable
You: and when it is valued, they do so, as they do now, eevn against their will, due to social pressure
Tree Kyomoon: which is why I tend to prefer a service model
You: Guess what Tree: I have news for you
You: if your business model is based on luring designers
You: and telling them they have IP
You: and it is copyable and stealable
You: it's your business model that sucks, not theirs
You: and watch them fight back
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: if everything is going to be open architecture and they want to make global standards then why come to us? why not go to ICANN? Publish an RFC?
Tree Kyomoon: Prok I don't prefer a world like that, it's just a fact. Once this all goes open source, protection will be nigh unto impossible
Frankie Antonioni: They will leave SL, or stop designing.
Dzonatas Sol: because it hasn't been done before .. successfully
You: Tree, that is bullshit
You: because it has been protected up until now, surprisingly
You: and in fact the music industry you describe isn't like you describe it
Tree Kyomoon: call it bullshit all you want, but its exactly the same as the music industry
You: you tend toward the tekkie extremist view
You: describing by absolutes
You: in fact, people still buy music
Dimitrio Lewis: Protection would be impossible under the current protocol, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.
You: it is not all copied
You: in fact things like the RIAA fight back hard
You: in fact Vista itself represents a nasty thing preventing copying
You: and so on and so on
You: you speak of it in black and white
Dzonatas Sol: open source doesn't mean everyone is forced to share
Tree Kyomoon: they do, and the best way to keep music paid for is to keep it cheap
You: as if something partly true is an absolute; it's not
Tree Kyomoon: it has to be easier to buy than to steal, otherwise people will steal
You: and there are ways to obfuscate, block, punish
You: then you work on that, you don't brush everybody away saying "too bad, so sad, your stuff is copyable you lose we win buh bye"
You: which is all you ever say
Aztecha Rentals $50: Thank you Tizzers Foxchase for leasing! Your lease will expire in 7 days, 0 hours, 0 minutes.
You: and if you want people to come and work and produce in the metaverse, sorry but you can't have that fucked up attitude
Tree Kyomoon: right, I dont think its morally right to steal stuff, Im just saying that it is largely unavoidable so you have to have a contingency. Musicians have alternate means of income like concerts etc.
You: no it's not Tree, you are presenting an extremist view piont
Frankie Antonioni: Where is Aztec at?
Tree Kyomoon: and, if you build things in SL you should do custom stuff as well to balance the income
You: music is purchased; music companies sign up bands at huge expense; they guard their IP
sean Voss: and music is much different the RIAA has much more legal/money power than a small time developer here
Avatar ejected.
Tara Yeats: concerts are a pisspoor replacement for recording sales,
Tara Yeats: especially for small-time & regional acts
Tree Kyomoon: they try prok, but they are losing the battle. I was just with a huge label in L.A. talking about this. BMI
You: you haev to think how you will get people to work without pay
You: no, they are not Tree, because at a certain point, you can't get this socialism to work any more
You: you can't get people to keep working for free
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: you all seem to be very worked up over a technology that doesn't exist yet
You: they won't
You: it's moving very fast and does exist in pieces everywhere
You: it's already the case in many places
Tree Kyomoon: now they are selling off copyrights so a company can buy an entire catalogue with no copyright limits for 20% more
You: and I've already outlined how I think it will proceed
Tree Kyomoon: the old model is dying
You: that big companies like Company Towns will buy up fleets of creatives and designers and programmers who will produce content for them and not care about copying
You: they may even give away everything like Coke says, sure, take our coke stuff for free
You: copy it to your hearts content, we don't care
Dzonatas Sol: I don't see how the RIAA can succeed in the future of the web unless somehow they manage to get DRM to work in everyone's machine. They would have to make it illegal to own a machine without DRM.
Tree Kyomoon: and new business models, like heaviliy targetted advertising, special applications etc are taking its place
Frankie Antonioni: If the older model dies, then you will have fewer songs and books.
You: so then the meta economy becomes about those big entities, and I don't see that is a good thing for creativity ultimately as they will be forced to appeal to mass taste
You: and the long tail everyone thinks will happen won't happen
You: there won't be enough entry level points into the economy
Tree Kyomoon: not true frankie, if that was the case then Google wouldn't be the success it is
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: I think that making enough money on sl to live on is a myth unless you are a land baron... that's why all my stuff is full perms open source... this is a game to me, it's fun
You: if you don't know a Linden or ex Linden or Raph Koster or whatever, you won't be able to open up a business in the Metaverse
You: it will be like Nantucket, not Chinatown
Avatar ejected.
Tree Kyomoon: I think the most profitable businesses in SL in the next 5 years will be started by people who aren't here today.
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: why?
Tree Kyomoon: think about it, facebook didn't start until the internet was 25 years old
Frankie Antonioni: People write songs and books to make money, if the writers don't make money, then no more.
Dzonatas Sol: prokofy , i would add to that list those that are savvy enough to keep up have an edge in it
Tree Kyomoon: google was very late into the game
You: I don't know how you can assume that, maybe yes, maybe no
You: Tre, nobody makes money off facebook but that kid who didn't graduate from college
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: I don't code for money
Tree Kyomoon: hah prok
Tree Kyomoon: funny
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: but I will continue to code for no money
Tree Kyomoon: and wrong
Tara Yeats: Frankie - writing songs & books are motivited by far more than making $...
Tara Yeats: and most who do don't make much on their efforts
sean Voss: many people make money off social nets other than the creators
Tree Kyomoon: or look at clubpenguin.com
sean Voss: facebook apps etc, marketing via myspace
You: well that's my point the new media is looking suspiciously like the old media
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: one of the reasons I code is because I refuse to put a penny into this game... if I see something I like I figure out how to make it
You: in fact it's like the old media of 1940, with the hollywood starlet machine
Tree Kyomoon: new media has to constantly reinvent itself to survive, like all media have over the centuries since print
Frankie Antonioni: Would farmers farm, if they made no money?
sean Voss: bugs steal their crops! zOMG ban em
Tree Kyomoon: and the business models become increasingly complex, if you are looking for a simple quick buck, you are out of luck
You: all you starlets got to be brought to Hollywood all expense paid and started on your careers ROFL
Tree Kyomoon: farms are all consolidated these days, so individual farmers have moved into organics and higher end stuff to stay alive
You: I don't even talk to people who spout about making a quick buck in SL, that's ridiculous
Frankie Antonioni: No what you do is you sue the people that infringe copyright.
Dzonatas Sol: bubble, then create other economies and vendors that use such economies with the lindens, WICS kinda works like that now.
Dzonatas Sol: *without
You: so the metaverse, which has no actual organics in it, has to follow an organic model based on scarcity? and too many cows?
You: what's up with that?
Tree Kyomoon: again, reinventing. If you are stuck in a rut in your business you will not last, you'll have to come up with new ideas constantly
JenzZa Misfit: if you create something " unique" that people can not live without and no one else can even come close to "duplicating it " .... you win. period.
Tree Kyomoon: new facebooks, new myspaces, new secondlifes. Mabey someone should make third life!
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: WICS? you mean food stamps?
Tara Yeats: Prok - what's "scarce" is talent and skill.... and hours in the day
You: so the Metaverse has to be based on social Darwinism?
Dzonatas Sol: scarcity... hmmm... i kinda see it as a fight to establish a global econoymy... the US dollar is not it anymore
You: "What about the people with no talent?"
Tree Kyomoon: I think to an extent yes Prok
You: that was a famous thread on the old SL forums
Tara Yeats: Prok - McD's
Dimitrio Lewis: other people eventually catch up with you.. that's why we have to watch out for competition for SL, particularly if it offers the same economic opportunities
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: no talent? forget 'em... we don't need their kind, lol
Tree Kyomoon: talent is relative. You may not be able to sing but you can proofread like nobody's businness
You: I think the Lindens rushed to press with this open architecture thingie due to Raph Koster
Tara Yeats: true, Tree
JenzZa Misfit: ...... customers ? .........
You: and even he is rushing to press due to whatever, HiPhi?
Tree Kyomoon: everyone has talent
sean Voss: well whats the point if they dont, let them be a passive user. im sure most woul dbe content with this
You: they are all looking over each other's shoulders
Dzonatas Sol: same with voice, WoW was about to push voice, but SL got to it first
You: I think there is something to be said for if you build it they will come
Tree Kyomoon has tried but has not been able to get Hipihi to work
You: look at Guild Wars, which took a long time to get it right, I wonder how they are doing
Wyn Galbraith: People on WoW use Skype to talk to each other.
Tree Kyomoon: oh hey wyn! didnt see you come in!
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: back when I played in alpha they were debuting voice... I stopped playing before I could see why they got rid of it though... was strange coming back years later and they were pushing it again, just like they were years ago :)
Wyn Galbraith snuck in when you weren't looking Tree.
Dzonatas Sol: wyn, yes. or vent, WoW hasn't delivered on voice
Tree Kyomoon: hah
Dzonatas Sol: We know things are going to get copied, what is wanted for devs to do over the concerns?
Tree Kyomoon: I think a service model, build custom stuff and get a nice client network, give lots of stuff away
Tree Kyomoon: to promote yourself
You: I don't want to talk to LL devs about this, by inviting Eddie Stryker to this, they've signalled their extreme views
You: I'd rather hear from other people in this industry who are knowledgeable
You: who might study this without the extremist religious viewpoint on this
Tree Kyomoon: I did think it was weird that eddie was there
You: even Lawrence Lessig should be pressed
You: he is of course underneath it all for just giving away everything and transferring wealth etc etc
You: but let him eat the dog food
You: and explain, since it was his idea supposedly to the Lindens
Tree Kyomoon: open source doods
You: let HIM come up with an explanatino of how he thinks CC licenses could hold it
You: I think it would be preposterous but put him on a panel and let him struggle with this
Dimitrio Lewis: It's closed minded to say that the only option is for everything to be shared. It's not like protection can't be developed for content even when it gets propagated to third party networks.
Tree Kyomoon: its wayyy more than just him, Prok, its the entire linux / Java community
You: and yes, it is wrong for them to have Eddie there, who not only made copybot, but maliciously sicced it on people, sold it then from an alt, took glee in their misfortune, and paid a source to lie to a journalist about it
You: it's all really sordid, and he supposedly 'apologized' over it but he has no remorse
You: none of them do
You: the ethics are low
You: and the Lindens are in on it
You: so the question is: why keep paying these people for their beta?
You: if they will roll up the sidewalks at the end
Dzonatas Sol: dimitrio, right. The option of course, right now, would be to secure it and encrypt it, but then everybody can't experience it
You: now that they've handily dropped down a TOS change making it much harder to sue them
Tree Kyomoon: I dont think thats exactly the story, I am hoping to get the straight dope on exactly what happened with copybot from a very good source soon
You: no accident, comrade
You: of course it's the story
You: you can read all the transcripts about this
You: read my blog now that SC has closed
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: if you beleive the open source community (which I do, because of PGP), open source actually increases security, it does not degrade it
You: he himself made a big apology
You: oh bollocks
Tree Kyomoon: well as I said, I have a really good inside source on the whole ordeal
You: it's one of their kooky koolaid premises
Dimitrio Lewis: You don't *have* to trust the server unconditionally. You could have some of it compiled on LL's network. It would be more resource intensive, but that's what your connection fee pays for.
You: yeah me too
You: and it's deliberate, casual, callous, malicious
You: like those people
You: and that's why I really loathe how the Metaverse is getting started with them in charge
Tree Kyomoon: thats not accurate
You: and I think we should fight it
You: yes it is Tree, you weren't even here
You: what the hell do YOU know???
Tree Kyomoon: I have a really good source as I said
You: oh piss on your source
Tree Kyomoon: lol
You: otaka can tell you the same thing I'm saying
You: he's no doubt your big source ROFL
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: ok, so economically, if the grid happens and certain problems are not solved before the grid happens then sl crime will increase? we all agree on that?
Tree Kyomoon: nope
You: yes crime is the other thing I put in the list
You: Russian mafia money laundering and stuff
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: I mean crime like copybot
You: diluluted gasoline at the pumps, cigarettes with fake stamps, lol
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: but that too
JenzZa Misfit: lol
Dzonatas Sol: if crimes happen, then the grid will fall right into the hands of the governments that now exist
Tree Kyomoon: the thing is guys, copybot is right there in LIbSL. THose guys arent going to implement it, but its there in open source
Tree Kyomoon: any c# hack could revive it at any time
You: Tree, why do you believe this is news?
You: you have to first go read everything I've written on it
You: then you can spout
You: lol
Dzonatas Sol: tree, that is how the viewer works, copybot just puts up a mirror image of the traffic, no biggie
Tree Kyomoon: Im not trying to scoop anybody, Im jsut mentioning it because it seems like its not common knowledge due to the comments
You: this tekkie proclivity for always "setting people straight" as if we are stupid and didn't grasp it long ago
Tree Kyomoon: I dont think you are stupid prok, quite the opposite actually.
You: like this retard banging on me in IMs telling me GASP everything the viewer can see is GASP copyable like this is OMGODOZORS a complex computer function that I cannot grasp LOL
You: then stop telling me the obvious and what isknown
You: I suspect there's a lot you don't know about Copybot
You: so go read everything I've written
You: I have like an 8-part series or something ROFL
You: this is what will happen
You: a huge lobby of creators will get going
You: and they are hugely organized
You: and with deep pockets
You: like Stroker who is doing the lawsuit against the guy with the bed
You: he is setting the stage for the climate for this new Metaverse
You: as is FlipperPa with his silly Payperview patent
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: so we agree on crime, generally... what about work? on the internet people spend much less time creating things than they do in sl... will netizens work ethic increase or will sl users work ethic decrease?
You: and so on
You: those people are positioning themselves and they will fight like RIAA fights
You: People need jobs, and it will all depend on whether crowd sourcing can pay micropayments to people
Tree Kyomoon: yes right, and we all saw how successful metallica has been with all that
You: and not just exploit their enthusiasm now
You: camp chairs and surveys and call girls and casinos all exist because there are no jobs
You: the single biggest thing people answer on my welcome area questionnaires about how the newbie experience can be improved is: jobs
You: and that means lots of work
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: I don't think that most people build or script for money here... at least, not for long
You: normally a federal government would work at this with a WPA program but not these Lindens, they run from social responsibility
You: so that means it's left to the Sheep or whatever, and then you begin to see the problem
Tree Kyomoon: whew
Frankie Antonioni: Some people hire builders and scripters.
You: I just want to point out that if you zoom up to the roof, you can see how these "discussants" grief me
You: they make my RL picture, avatar, they keep coming back after being banned etc
You: in case you were all weepy about them
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: I think that if sl is to resemble the internet more, consumption of content will increase and creation of content will remain constant (more people will use apps, but they will use the same apps)
Tree Kyomoon: well prok, you certainly did not disappoint, you remain one of the most interesting people in SL
Dzonatas Sol: the internet as it is will change because it wasn't the original design, the telephone companies want to tier the internet to their control. They run on a star topology. the internet was never designed to be a star topology
You: Tree, I'm a normal common sense person
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: honestly, prok, and I mean this as constructive criticism: you made your griefing warning too harsh and waited too long to try to start the discussion
You: the kind to which you are never exposed
Tree Kyomoon: sometimes common sense is not so common!
You: yeah the telephone companies could put an end to that stuff that Zero and co think they will do with stealing everybody's copyright
You: it may be the telephone companies that concentrate their little minds wonderfully
You: I hadn't thought of that
Tree Kyomoon: ROFL
Tree Kyomoon: oh man, that was hilarious!
ManqoQhapaqInca Qunhua: I have something to share that I hear at the Life 2.0 this week, where I have been banned for asking uncomfortable questions to the speakers (IBM, etc, etc). From different platforms that were presented this one mentioned being approached by LL to develop a similar model
http://croquetconsortium.org/index.php/Connect
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKi-fkyAtg8
. I also heard that the Protocol and Standards for VIrtual Worlds Meeting will be held soon, so I think LL is preparing a strategy to try imposing their approach and control the way Virtual Worlds evolve. Strangely in Life 2.0 was not any voice from OpenSim.
Tree Kyomoon: keep em coming
Avatar ejected.
Dzonatas Sol: =)
You: well broadband costs something
You: did the Lindens think everybody is rich like them and just putting out free stuff all the time?
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia: wonderland is already open source... I haven't played with it yet though... are there any implementations of it that could show us what might happen to sl?
Tree Kyomoon: Lindens? Rich? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Dzonatas Sol: luxuries taken for granted... nah
Tree Kyomoon: philip is, but thats about it
You: yes Tree
You: they have burned through loads of VC capital
ManqoQhapaqInca Qunhua: well, wonderland was also discussed but what i noticed is croquet mentioning this about SL evolution
You: and btw capital supplied by our tier, too
Tree Kyomoon: somewhat, but that colo in which we all exist right now burns a TON of cash
ManqoQhapaqInca Qunhua: however, they didnt answer my questions about a business model of it
Tree Kyomoon: I wanted to see it but they wouldn't let me go, apparently its pretty top secret off base location
You: and thy are barely profitable
Tree Kyomoon: plus much of it is in texas
You: it's not a secret
You: it's called 365.com
You: it's in SF
Dzonatas Sol: main datacenters are 'quake proof'... only monkeys get in
Tree Kyomoon: yeah, really expensive to add servers and keep them there
Tree Kyomoon: vastly more than you would pay for a pc at home
You: well that's one of the fanboyz concepts that they can do all this on the cheap
You: and I think that's where they are in for a rude awakening
You: suddenly they will appreciate what the Lindens do a lot more
Tree Kyomoon: could be prok. we could all wake up dead tomorrow!
Tree Kyomoon really likes Prokofy Neva
Frankie Antonioni: Hey Prokofy, have you been to Hippie Pay island, or Money?
You: no
You: hippie pay is a fraud
You: I don't allow it on my land
JenzZa Misfit: omg .... hippie pay

Comments

[Frankie Antonioni]

About Hippie Pay, after you had logged off, I had mentioned that maybe companies like Coke, or Pepsi could set up their own islands, and put codes inside their bottle caps.

Each bottle cap could be worth lets say 10L$,the L$ could then be used to bid in auctions, for RL objects, or they could use the L$ to spend on items in SL.
It's not just softdrink companies that could do this, companies like Ben & Jerry's, Dell, or any other company.

So a company like Ben & Jerry's, could offer 25 to 30 L$ for each code, while Dell could offer up to 10,000 L$, if you buy a Dell computer and about 300 L$, if you buy Dell ink.

About the only time that I drink 7UP, is when I'm sick, however I do know other people that do drink 7UP. So back in 2003 7UP had a contest called liquid loot. You enter codes into the website, and you get points. You can then use the points in the online auction. So I got a set of 5 Lord of the Rings coins, and I got LOTR twig pen, aqnd I also got some other stuff.

[Frankie Antonioni]

Now about copyright, if people don't get paid for what they write, or create, then you are going to see fewer songs being recorded, and fewer books being writen.

Tree says that writers and creaters, will have to just keep writing newer and newer stuff, however, the thing about that, is it takes less than 1 minute to download a song. So a song writer would have to come up with a new song every day, or a book writer would have to write a new book every day. However that will not be possible, it takes a science fiction writer on average, about 9 months to write a book.

The late Isaac Asimov would usually be working on several books at once. This might be a novel, and several non fiction books that he might be writing.So in an average year, he might get about 13 books into print.

And the same is true for musicians, and other artists.

[Prokofy Neva]

Yes, Frankie, that seems like a rather common-sense argument. If people can't sell their art and survive and make a living, then they are likely not to keep selling. That has certainly happened in SL, and happened after the first Copybot scare.

And really, the basic ground rule of this debate Copybot has to be that these tekkies stop spouting the obvious and telling everyone with a tone ranging from mystical superiority to arrogant annoyance to vicious glee that the viewer can see everything and...duh...therefore copy everything.

My God, we got that. That has never been a problem to "get". A child, with a Polarid camera, can get it. So stop it already, with these superior, annoyed, and even vicious explanations of the obvious -- which several were doing to me in IMs all through this meeting, as if I was some retard that can't grasp that GASP if you can see it/you can copy it.

The problem isn't understanding or accepting it. The problem then comes in managing it. Tekkies throw up their hands, and keep repeating like robots, "If you can see it/you can copy it." Yes, we heard you, shut up.

But more thoughtful people say:

o are there any less-than-perform technical means to mitigate this? Why must every discussion about obfuscation be met with a sneer and a lecture about arms races? Do you WANT to save the world, or not?

o are there social/legal mans to mitigate this through making theft punishable under the TOS?

o could the Lindens do more to make the permissions region/licensing options/help with takedown notices easier, as a social support to this very real problem of losing the content of the world otherwise?

OH, and duh, we also got it long ago about the limits of the distribution of the copies, or what can be copied, blah blah. So please, don't wear us out with that one anymore, either.

The point is to brainstorm, in good faith, as if you really wanted to try to save IP rights, how to manage this, not to keep being clubbed over the head with the fact of it, long ago absorbed.

There are two options in a world where you can't save your copies and prevent copying:

o uravnilovka socialism, where everyone is dumbed down, everything is stolen, everything is supposed to be made for free, and nobody is supposed to get more than anyone else

o company town capitalism -- where companies will support teams of artists and designers and pay them salaries in exchange for selling stuff to the masses

Once you contemplate that a little more, you might really want to go back and revisit just how Luddite you think Luddites are, who, after all, aren't against technology per se; they are merely against the disruption of their livlihood and the watering down of their craft and skills by machines that mass produce. Sound familiar?

So they'd like to keep prices set and high for their work, and not have them undermined by mass producing machine handlers. Perhaps they're on the wrong side of history, but it doesn't hurt to study the problem from their perspective.

[sean percival (sean voss)]

I'm not sure how I became an sympathizer, but then again I can't seem to understand why you throw out half the labels you do.

If anything I study your griefers, to me this is interesting research. I wondered why oh why would they target you so heavily. I've talked with a few of them and have some understanding now. I'm not going to share it just yet however.

I also fail to see you point on all of this opposition to open architecture. Let me just clarify, only the users smart enough or dedicated enough to learn these new technologies will flourish? How dare they be rewarded for their talent and hard work! To those of us with some technical skills you simply sound like an older generation awaiting their pending doom as the world moves to fast for them to keep up. All the same happened in the 90s during the dotcom boom where few could build or support a website. Now anyone launch and manage a website, even yourself.

By the way, since you have sooo much respect for IP and creators isnt it funny I can go to your SIMs and easily pick out textures that have been borrowed from various sources outside SL to create most of what you see? You should really track down them all and get consent or compensate them for their hard work.

[Prokofy Neva]

Gosh, aren't you the smart one, studying my griefers, and wow, what insight, to understand why they grief me, and hey, how manipulative and cool is that, to say "I'm not going to share it with you" like an arrogant prick ROFL?

And the answer is: because they can. There might be 100 other reasons (pathetic, puerile adolescents or young men with arrested development with parental and authority issues, nihilists who need to stamp out anything "serious" with Leninist fury, etc.) But it's not important to sit and figure out why the terrorists had unhappy childhoods.

Hey, my office was trashed in Alston, and your name is on the records of people who came there before the attack, sean. Comments?
You've been AR'd.

BTW, the reader may be unaware that sean is the author of a poorly and hastily written travel guide to SL knocked together to try to capitalize off the media hype, which I gave an unfavourable review of in the Herald, which is why he is joining the griefers now to harass me. Now, that's mature and professional, eh lol?

All of us in business in SL work hard. And frankly, there are many of us with talent and skills even if they aren't the skills of coding and designing. And the Lindens' star system has no way of rewarding it, and if anything, punishes it.

I'm certainly not awaiting for any impending doom, but you must be, so fearful are you of criticism of your narrow-minded and lame tekkie approach to things.

Um, I'm not aware of any textures that I've "borrowed" or "taken from SL" that I need to "compensate". For example, my business logo was commissioned to an inworld designer who made it herself. Other textures I've purchased. I'm not a builder, so I commission builds, and those builders draw their own textures and sell them inworld, they're original work.

If there's some texture I've copied off the Internet, it's copyable and not copyrighted.

Let me point out that someone who has time to hover around my sims picking through whatever simple objects I've made, is someone who really has a lot of time on their hands, and no life. And if you come up with some "copyrighted material," hey, get a lawyer, file a DMCA takedown notice, and go fuck yourself, sideways.

Typical fascist tripe, imagining the world should go only to the "talented" *cough*.

[Gwyneth Llewelyn]

One day, Prokofy, you'll understand the difference between an opinion (which we all are free to express) and a qualified opinion from an expert ;)

But then again, you're not alone — almost all of the 2 billion people living under democracies also confuse the issue :)

In any case, the following example should make my point: when you're ill you:

a) go to a doctor;
b) ask the TV repairman, the pizza delivery guy or the grocery seller for an opinion;
c) engage in a forum debate, held publicly, on what should be the best form of curing your illness?

Most of the people who *really* wish to get well will pick option a).

[sean percival (sean voss)]

Actually I didnt see you trash my book on the herald but I'll go look now for that now.

Not sure how you can since it has not been released yet but I'll take any press for it and thank you for this.

Now you are accusing me of griefing as well and abuse reporting me? For whats its worth I have done nothing of the sort. I will avoid visiting your SIMs and meetings in the future so there is no further paranoid confusion on the matter.

[Prokofy Neva]

Oh, maybe it wasn't YOUR guide I critically reviewed, but someone else's, must be, because I recall that person (whose inworld name I don't recall) answering in the comments. So if I haven't critically reviewed your guide, I'll do so : )

I'm not paranoid, I just match time of visit of avatars and time of attack. It's only circumstantial evidence, of course, because the attackers don't have to physically even come on the property, they can can hang around nearby. So...what WERE you doing in my office? Um, not looking for a rental, I gather, but just looking to "investigate and expose" me and my, uh, stolen textures ROFL.

So Gwyn, let's get this straight now, as I have no idea what you are intimating.

Are you saying you have merely an "opinion" when you say the Renaissance and Enlightenment were brought about "mainly by the Jews and Arabs left hanging around after Al-Andalusa"? Or is that an expert's opinion? Just askin'.

In fact, people who are ill do all three things, they live in a social world where they trust those they see who might have wisdom, and they live on the Internet, and not only in the world of experts.

So I gather this is your way of saying, in the usual creator-fascist/tekkie-authoritarian manner, that only "experts" on programming and "architecture" get to be in a discussion about the actual form and function of open source and the world to come, but the people living in it do not.

That's really awful stuff, and nobody in real life would accept that in a real country, and I don't see why we have to accept it here in Second Life!

[Lem Skall]

Prok, if you want to have a say in the new architecture, learn Computer Science or hire yourself a geek. It's the same with other professions. You hire a lawyer when you go to court, you hire a contractor when you build a house, you effectively hire a doctor or a dentist too. Anshe Chung will probably get someone involved in the Architecture Working Group. IBM already has someone involved. We are not a social class that is impossible to enter, we are just professionals who most of the time work for others.

It's the way everything works. Yeah, technology is hard. It's hard enough to use, we techies have to do a better job at that, but you're going several steps beyond that and you are asking for it to also be easy to design or at least easy to understand the design. It can't be as complex as it is and still be understood by everyone on the planet, but it's not a secret society, it's all OPEN, published literature and you just have to work on it. Or else you pay for it.

I agree that LL needs to listen more and better to users. But you're barking up the wrong tree. OS is one of the best things that have happened in CS and that is propagating into other fields (see ). And OS is the best thing that can happen to SL. Even if it's going to hurt real-estate value, especially on mainland (and it will almost certainly lower tier).

You used to be passionate about SL. Now you're passionate about whatever affects your SL business.

[Prokofy Neva]

So, if I want to have a say in American foreign policy, I should, um...let's see. Learn Arabic? Pass the Foreign Service exam? And be a friend of Bush.

Or...if I'd like to comment on the sub-prime mortgage crisis, I should have a degree in economics, and even be licensed to code money markets on the Internet!

"We are not a social class that is impossible to enter, we are just professionals who most of the time work for others."

This is one of the more quotable quotes of the Metaverse-in-the-Making : )

It sums up that whole illegitimate royal we better than most things I know, with the exception of the infamous Jennyfur's cavalier crabbing, "There aren't any cool kids. There are just people with more or less relevance."

Yeah, you can be sure I'll be whacking this stuff with as big and as ugly a stick as I can find : )

I can remember back in the old days of Hayes Smartcom and such, you had to follow commands, oh, I dunno, about 20 of them with various arcane meanings, to get email to go across the Internet. It was a cumbersome process, and like Legos, you get one wrong, the whole thing messed up. If you wanted a file, you had to type all this stuff with "gopher" blah blah.

Today, you press a button, "send" or you type a word and press "search".

Obviously, people who make it hard and arcane are trying to justify their existence. They are the Dogs in the Manger of the Metaverse.

I'm not passionate about only what affects my RL business. I have no stake in content-creation in Second Life, other than a couple of t-shirts and items I commissioned to sell to help the Land Preserve. I don't even like most of these prima donnas in the content-creator-fascist glass of people, who are hard to deal with. But I appreciate their role, their sacrifices, their talent, their contributions. And I see them and their efforts in grave danger of being destroyed, and that's *wrong*.

The entire world is made up of a complex set of relationships and efforts and expenditures that it's hard to calculate, and I don't see why we have to turn it over to assholes like Lem, who refer to themselves as the royal "we".

OS is not at all proven demonstrably as the best thing to happen to SL. I don't see that at all. In fact, looking at the viewer as our precursor to this concept, we can see that open-sourcing the viewer has given us...bupkus.

That is, perhaps it has given us Nicholas Beresford's viewer, and somebody can go use that, and that's great, and maybe some memory leak or bug got fixed. But in exchange, we've also had to endure any number of rogue viewers and crap as well.

The idea that because some arcane knowledge is open and published that it is not secret is silly. Of course it's secret, they way they organize it, hiding it in wikis, signing NDAs, having closed meetings. So much for openness ROFL.

[Lem Skall]

I'm not sure I understand what Prok is thinking (that happens a lot) with that "royal we", but what I wrote may be misinterpreted. I am not a member of the Architecture Working Group and I was referring to "we geeks" in general.

[Nicholaz Beresford]

)) Obviously, people who make it hard and arcane are trying to justify their existence. They are the Dogs in the Manger of the Metaverse. ((

Oh yes "obviously". Especially "obviously"!

For the same reasons they first made telephones with cords and people sitting on the switchboard instead of just directly inventing people mobile phones.

[Ichi Jaehun]

O lawdy, this blog is trrbl.

What is Computer Science(CS)?
Alan Turing
John McCarthy
Edsger W. Dijkstra
Donald Knuth
Alan Kay
... to name a few who embody this term.

What does CS look like?
http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/gdp/publications/sos_jlap.pdf

What is a programmer?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programmer

What is software engineering?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agile_development

Without further ado I leave you with Machiavelli:

There are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, and the third is useless.

[Prokofy Neva]

I think Ichi's quotation of Machiavelli is a very apt description of today's tekki mind, which has trouble comprehending, which cannot reason that others might also be reasonable and come to other conclusions, and which are incapable of contrasting and comparing different schools of thought.

It's the kind of pseudo-science religious crap that the Iranian president gabbles, an amalgam of warmed-over 19th century philosophies, Marxism, and what you might call statist Islamicism.

[Gwyneth Llewelyn]

Prokofy, again, you *deliberately* mix up the issue of "havng a personal opinion" and "having a qualified professional opinion", and continue to insist on it :)

Let me underline the issue again. As you do know better than anyone else that posts comments here, the groundwork of democracy is solidly built on the premise that *anyone* can express personal opinions, and through these, influence the outcome of *policy*. Wars are won or lost, for instance, because of public opinion — the common citizen has no clue on how a war is fought in the field, but it can, through its opinion, force an administration to revise their policy concerning a specific war (ie. pushing the government into it or out of it). "Public opinion" does not require attendance on West Point to be freely expressed everywhere — you can be pro/anti war without a degree in military strategy or world diplomacy!

However, this doesn't mean that you'll get journalists publishing a pro/anti-war manifesto into a jeep and drive them off to a war, with four stars on their helmets :(

Now this is pretty obvious even to *you* (and no matter what you claim to the contrary, no, I don't believe that you would entrust your health and the health of your family to a discussion held in a forum).

The other aspect is when you defend your opinion that "open source leads to a closed society", based on whatever thoughts that have come to your mind, depending on anedoctal evidence on certain types of behaviours of specific individuals. This is an emotional response to what you feel that these people are after: control, through obscurity. Put into other words: if you're not part of the Most Ancient and Secret Order of The Tekki-Wikkis, you're not able to participate in their discussion, and are excluded from it — and this is an "evil that has to be fought on all fronts".

It's clear to me that you have never attended a conference on, say, brain CAT scans, with triple-doctorships in medicine, and asked to participate in the discussion, since you think that brain surgeons are also "evil" due to their hermetic language, and thus should be publicly slandered because they write papers and thesis with words with more than three syllables. The thought, of course, is ludicrous, and even I don't believe that you would ever defend such a thing.

But it's the same thing! Brain surgeons are not a Secret Conspiration to block out public opinion and rule the world with their closed, narrow-minded mentality, just because they meet at workshops and conferences and nobody understands what they're talking about.

Technical jargon, by itself, is not the making of a conspiracy, or even an artificial barrier between the ones with the knowledge to discuss a certain topic, and the rest of the world. It's just an efficient method to convey information between people with similar backgrounds and technical training in a certain area. *All* areas of human knowledge develop a technical jargon for the same reason — just think about lawyers and doctors, as the best example for this!

On the other hand, you *can* abandon the technical jargon and adopt standard English to explain concepts to a non-technical audience. Some people do that for a living — think Carl Sagan as perhaps the best example. But pick up any book from the Mind & Life Institute (http://www.mindandlife.org/), where scientists of several areas and Buddhist monks chat with each other, discarding each other's "jargon", and find a common ground to freely discuss their ideas and concepts — together. It's just one of many examples where experts from different areas (medicine, cognitive science, linguistics, philosophy, theology) get together and talk to each other (and even reach interesting conclusions together!), while definitely not having a technical grasp of each other's specialised knowledge.

Now, that a specific professional training will condition a mindset, is not exactly breakthrough news! Ask a lawyer and a politician what they think about democracy, and you'll see a surprisingly different description of the very same thing. A lawyer might defend that the rule of law allows democracy to flourish and expand; a politician might defend that democracy is the key for the rule of law to work fairly. Both sides are not defending their own personal world conspiracy, just looking at the same issue, but coming to different conclusions based on their respective expertise.

Human civilization is based on specialisation; in fact, as I'm fond to quote, it's exactly that specialisation that allowed civilization in the first place! As we moved towards a more complex world, each of us got a role in society defined by our knowledge, skills, and specialised training. Civilisation was possible when we could abandon a model where everybody built their own homes and provided their own food for themselves and their families, but generated a surplus that allowed experts to emerge. So this is just restating the obvious: knowledge gets specialised; knowledge generates experts; experts deal with the issues that relate to their area.

In our modern societies, thus, we clearly separate *policy* from *execution*. Public opinion — the opinion that any citizen has, no matter how that opinion is formed — mandates policy. Expert opinion determines implementation. That's why democracy can survive having amateurs as politicians (ie. anyone can become a politician, it's a question of getting voted to holding an office!) — they will only need to worry about mandating policy, not execute anything: for that, they have experts in each field, which will follow what the policy mandates, but deal with the technical questions that the politician (or the public in general) does not need to have any clue about. Put into other words, the USA doesn't need Bush to be a West Point-trained general to be able to declare war to Iraq; all he needs to do is to define as a policy that a state of war exists. The details are left to the specialists to figure out — the generals and strategists. (And, reversely, if the public opinion is against war, it's up to the policy-makers to stop it, and once more leave the details on how to do that efficiently and successfully to the skilled strategists).

So the discussion is always at two levels, and this is what you're so good at mixing them together, and descend as the Wrath of God upon the skilled professionals — when your role should obviously be one of defining policy, and gathering public opinion to support a specific policy over any other.

The issue here is what is "reasonable" or not. There are, once more, two levels on that. One is what is reasonable, policy-wide. A few examples: is it reasonable for LL to open source the code or not? Is it reasonable for them to abandon the grid and dedicate themselves just to do the software and host the servers? Is it reasonable to drop the Abuse Reports and hire ADR centres to mediate issues between residents?

The answers to all the above (as well as many others) are just questions of policy, and thus, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that anyone's opinion — whatever their background, skills, and training — is very well worth of analysis. It's also more than adequate to gather public opinion to put pressure on LL to change their policies (or force them to a specific one). That's the beauty of the whole system.

The second level, of course, is a technical one, and "reasonable" in that context means something entirely different. Let's assume that SL has 4000 or so known bugs. Policy, expressed through public opinion, mandates that bug fixing should be a priority. That's "reasonable". But on the technical level, this might be impossible to do in a certain timeframe, ie. how many bugs can 40 developers fix in, say, a month? The answer to that question requires qualified skills. It is not a question of "willing things to be done" — it depends on crucial technical factors, and the skills that those 40 developers have in tracking down bugs and fixing them. So yelling at LL to "fix bugs FASTER" (or even NOW) is a pointless exercise — public opinion already fought the fight at the policy level, ie. forcing LL to forget about features and concentrate on bugs only. But the second level is not only about technological know-how: it's also business. What is the impact of not launching any new features for several months, considering that there is competition? How much does it cost to fix 4000 bugs, and how long does it take? How much money is LL losing because a certain bug is plaguing SL? How will shareholders or the media react if LL does nothing more than fixing 4000 bugs for the next 5 years? All these questions are *not* answered by "the public at large" nor the developers themselves — but by marketeers, public relation specialists, business managers, and eventually LL's CFO, as well as their board, their advisory board, and other groups of specialists that have a saying on the technical (not technological!) details on how LL as a company has to run.

What I agree with you is that a certain technological background tends to see all the problems as nails, and since you have a hammer, you can fix all issues. That is very narrow-minded indeed, and a current problem of our technological society. I have always to agree that most issues that SL is facing are purely social and not technological, and that a technological solution not only doesn't make the problem go away, but it *aggravates* it even further, to the surprise of the technologically-minded (but not to the ones outside that mindset!). Thus, for instance, insisting on "code as law" is an *unreasonable* policy, and it should be up to us, residents, to demand that LL gets rid of that nonsense — but then leave up to their experts (not the techies; but the business managers!) to figure out new processes and models to handle an alternative solution.

When it comes to discuss the details of the future SL architecture, there are again the two levels to consider. Is it a good idea to have a distributed grid without Linden Lab as a single point of failure? Yes from a technological point of view; no from a (short-term) business point of view. What should LL do then? It's a question of *policy*, and obviously, any person in the world should be allowed to suggest (or to raise public support) for a specific policy. Thus, it's fine to say that LL should focus first on making money fast and forget about redundancy in the future, and design the architecture so that only LL has access to it. There are consequences to that policy (which has been until recently what LL has been doing, actually), but it's a "reasonable" one: it allowed, for instance, LL to become a profitable company. The alternative — the "many interconnected grids" approach — requires a policy change, and again, public opinion could/should be used to validate if that policy change is "reasonable" or not.

Once the policy has been defined, however, it's time to enter the second level — the one of specialised knowledge. And here we have a lot of issues to deal with: business ones (how will LL sell more under this new model?), marketing ones (how will LL promote themselves in the "many grids" model? What are their strengths?), financial ones (will the revenues from this model be enough to sustain the costs?), and technical ones (how do we design the new architecture?) Public opinion has no role at this level. But similarly, experts in each area have no role in deciding what the other areas should do, ie. claiming that the new architecture will make more money (or reduce costs) is not something that a techie is qualified to express as a professional opinion :) (I know that most will say that, of course)

There is only "pseudo-science religious crap" into it when techies believe (since it is, indeed, in the realm of faith) that their qualified opinions as experts entitles them to define policy as well, or, even worse, somehow entitles them to emit opinions on other areas that they're pretty much clueless about. Again, it's not a world conspiracy through pro-technology brainwashing — but certainly a disturbing scenario on having the other aspects of running a business be conditioned solely on "opinions" emitted by non-experts in those areas.

I always claim that the success of Google was possible once the two founders, Page and Brin, were clever enough to hire a business expert to run their company as CEO. Page & Brin completely understood that while anybody at Google can mandate policy ("we want to be the largest search engine in the world!"), and that both of them certainly have the know-how to create the technology infrastructure required to sustain the "world's largest search engine", they were merely skilled technicians without a clue on how to build a corporation that would be able to successfully implement their policy. Recognising that professionals should be the ones implementing policy (in this case, business managers) is not a "weakness" — but, rather, a mark of intelligence.

[Prokofy Neva]

Gwyn,

Of course it's an evil to be fought on all fronts and you, as a person with a technical/scientific educational background without the humanities presented systematically, picking them up haphazardly off the Internet or friends or random books, are not in a position to view objectively this age-old problem of "The Two Cultures".

CAT scans and brain surgeons present nothing at all like the problems presented to us by geeks making social media and the Internet and virtual worlds.

A brain surgeon, first of all, has to pass a board examine and show credentials. As Maklin Deckard so wonderfully pointed out, this legion of fanboy hacksters who pick up tech stuff out of their ass half the time, learned on the fly, learned partially in their IT drone jobs, etc. are hardly a source of professional knowledge of the scope that LL has -- and LL, by contrast to much bigger and more established entities is also hardly a source of professionalism write large, either.

There is no public board, or legislation passed in Congress, that regulates, reviews, accredits, the geeks of the world. They are self-accredited, and their own tekkie companies have their own little weenie tech credential thingies that even they themselves tend to dismiss as ridiculous sometimes.

But more to the point, the brain surgeon knows his limits. The brain surgeon isn't setting my currency exchange, Gwyn. He's not taking care of my phone bill charges. He's not enabling or disabling my ability to communicate or participate in a community. He's just operating on brains, full stop. He might have an opinion on how his knowledge of brain wiring might apply to, say, currency rates, but most people would realize it's just an opinion.

Not so tekkies. They have an opinion on currency markets? They get to implement it "just because" -- because they say so, because they wire it, because they think they are experts on everything *merely because everything is digital*.

Imagine if the brain surgeon said he got to set currency levels merely because they are perceived by brains.

Tech jargon, as we can abundantly see from these transcripts of these pathetic lamer lozers trying to impress other pathetic lamer lozers, is a sword that people wield -- and not very effectively. It cries out for parody -- even dismissal.

Brain surgeons don't insist that educators, or parents, or Congressmen, also concerned about the development of children's brains, adopt their jargon to do their business. They don't tell them they have to come submit medical papers to be peer reviewed in order to devise or approve a theory of reading and learning the English language -- the moral equivalency of a JIRA contribution.

We've had this debate before, where you have a very stilted, tekkie-conditioned, lock-step notion of how public policy is made, absolutely shorn of any REAL EXPERIENCE in MAKING public policy in anything but the tech field (and i'm not sure even there).

The Carl Sagans of the world are important bridgers of the two cultures and the disciplines, but they are mocked by those steeped in either culture, and make things superficial in their bridging in ways that create new misunderstandings.

The important thing to grasp about lawyers and politicians and butchers and waitresses is that they might all have different levels of knowledge or skill or training in discussing democracy. They are not precluded from BEING IN democracy and participating it as a result -- as the non-technical are sneeringly barred from participation on managing a society in Second Life by all these fake opensourcerers.

Lawyers in fact often become Congressmen in the U.S.

Gwyn, I don't know if you can grasp this, coming out of 30 years of an authoritarian society, having only a technical education, and being in the EU, where bureaucracy makes policy much more than parliament. But your notion that "Public opinion has no role at this level" is absolutely fake, false, and dangerous.

Public opinion ALWAYS has a role at EVERY level and you CANNOT keep it out -- unless you mean to impose authoritarian or even totalitarian rule.

Take an issue like stem-cell research. Call in your experts, have your senate hearings, have the LA's write papers based on expert testimony -- none of that means anything if the religious right and its media and political action committee machines don't like where it's going.

Maybe Euros docilely submit to their Eurocrats more easily, but that's not what I'm hearing on so many issues. Otherwise, Turkey would be admitted to the EU by now; there would be no headscarf controversy, to cite but one of many controversies.

And your analogies to RL also break down when you imagine that tekkies somehow deliver their expertise and then shut up, as if the tekkie in the Open Source Architecture gambit says "here's what we can and can't do with the currency exchange tools" and then never tells you his beliefs and convictions after that. Of course he does -- and doesn't *separate them* from his technical expertise -- they never do.

There are no more emotional people in the world than tekkies; they are no more people relying more heavily on gut and emotion and subjective perception than these so-called caretakers of the technical world. That's our peril.

This sums up the problem of Second Life, neatly:

"There is only "pseudo-science religious crap" into it when techies believe (since it is, indeed, in the realm of faith) that their qualified opinions as experts entitles them to define policy as well, or, even worse, somehow entitles them to emit opinions on other areas that they're pretty much clueless about. Again, it's not a world conspiracy through pro-technology brainwashing — but certainly a disturbing scenario on having the other aspects of running a business be conditioned solely on "opinions" emitted by non-experts in those areas."

But it is a world conspiracy, of course at a latent and not deliberate level in most manifestations, because of the cultural propensity of tekkies not to engage in self-criticism.

Page and Brin may have been smart enough to hire a business manager; I'm not at all certain your characterization of this hire as the root of Google success is historically accurate; but to imagine that Page and Brin now create a firewall between tech and business, like a newspaper firewall between advertising and editorial, is a fiction. Of course they are intensely immersed in business and they had a comfort level with that hire who could permit their intrusions -- in another company, that wouldn't happen.

Also, if you study Brin's biography, he is the result of upbringing in a Jewish mathematician's family, a classic Russian intelligentsia figure, who would be as a result more educated than an American equivalent (and he had all kinds of special schools like Montessori, etc.). So surely he imbibed many ideas about culture, business, society that he came to use instinctively in a project like Google, so as to portray him as a mere "technician" is misleading. I'm just saying that the privileged and cossetted son of a Jewish mathematician who emigrated from the Soviet Union would have very clear ideas about how to make one's way in the world despite discrimination, oppression, totalitarianism, Academy of Science politics, etc. I'm sure this all came in handy making Google.

BTW, I've always wondered if the word "Google" came from the Russian expression gogol-mogol, which is the word for a drink like "egg nog," and also a word meaning "mixing up lots of stuff". I realize it is said to come from the mispelling of the word for 10 to 100th power.

[Prokofy Neva]

Wow, I see somebody else once bloggeg about the theory of gogol-mogol and Google, too:
http://www.mentalblog.com/2005/11/etymology-of-word-google.html

Well you could just ask the guy, but he may have been responding to long-ingrained cultural memes that he wasn't aware of.

Every child knows what gogol-mogol is, not only that stuff made with the egg yolks and sugar when you are sick, but also what you are chastised as having made out of your badly done homework or something. Gogol is the Russian writer known for his absurdities and exaggerated characters like Chichnikov. It's a kind of nonsense rhyming word. I think it could be in Brin's mind for his search engine precisely because you never know what will be coming up in this search mix.

[Dalien Talbot]

How about a possibility of more cynical humour on the tekkie side ? I suggest that it would be a corrupted "Gogol-mogul", and if you enumerate the famous russian writer's works in that context together with the second word, you can obtain quite a few derivations, which quite unambiguously prove there definitely was an evil tekkie conspiracy out there! :)