On Imposing and Resisting the Caliphate: Look Out for Lawyers!

It's very important to publish this conversation, not only because it was a public meeting and I always publish them, but because of a nasty maneuver Benjamin Duranske made, first attempting to crash this meeting, then being banned, then eavesdropping on the conversation by snooping from nearby Linden land like a common b/tard -- and finally ARing me for "disclosure" like a sordid little KGB informant. Duranske is the sell-out lawyer who gave the SL Bar Association's blessing to an Islamic caliphate experiment in Second Life without any consultation of the membership, or any real grasp of what it means to confer legitimacy on such "governance" programs that are really smuggled agendas of repression seeking recognition and inroads into gullible liberal circles. He's banned not only for his disruption potential in a meeting clearing warning against disruption; he's simply banned because he bans me from his blog. Why? Not for actual expression on his own blog, but for expression on my blog, in which I very frankly call him a major asshole for his unseemly behaviour in Second Life -- 1) his zealous prosecutorial position on Ginko's bank; 2) his causing of a run on that bank; 3) his formation of an SLBA as a vanity project for his own agenda and then misleading formation of an ABA sub-committee 4) his posturing and pompous prognosticating on a variety of issues in SL from a cautious, corporativist or leftist liberal stance (and yes, you can easily combine both lol) that undermines not only the rule of law, but basic civil rights.

Duranske imagines that the only reason I severely attack him is due to being banned from his blog. That's insane. There are a hundred reasons to attack him precisely because of his aspirations of power and influence, in shaping the legal climate of SL. Most people don't follow this; most people imagine that they can keep governance experiments and smarmy and greedy lawyers far, far from their land in SL, and figure they can't do much damage. Yet they can. People like Benjamin Duranske and Jessica Holyoke aren't content to serve clients (and those two have none, as neither practices law at the moment but only practices virtuality); they are avid, ambitious avatars wishing to skew the governance tools, policies of Linden Lab, and the Metaverse in general. Everyone can advocate what they wish; but then, that means I can push back, too. That's why people who care about the freedoms of the electronic frontier have to fight back hard, push back against these corporativist encroachments, and really scream loudly at what they stand for: the smothering of creativity and freedom, the stench of indifference or even facilitation of racism and anti-semitism, and the oppressiveness of conformity to corporate dominion.

Duranske, ever the prosecutor, abuse reported me to LL because at the end of the meeting, when almost everyone had left, I took his incessant IMs, and pasted them into chat, so that I could copy them on one card, and remarked to Cocoanut that he was being a dweeb. She commented after reading the remarks that he was "about 12 years old". He abuse reported me not for publishing this transcript below -- I obviously hadn't published it yet, and he knows full well that publication of chat on third-party sites is not something LL will overreach to react to. No, he AR'd me -- after he was banned from my land, and began spying on me from neighbouring Linden Land -- for publishing his craven and manipulatively little IM'd comments in chat, because they are an embarassment. He actually imagines he can maneuver me into a position where I'd say, "Oh, yes, Boss, I'll do anything to get back on your blog, yes I promise never to attack you personally, even realizing that you will understand that in a completely self-referential and often hysterical manner."

I counter AR'd him, for spying, but figured that would be hard to get the Lindens to act on. So these Lindens, who can yawn and nod and ignore my frantic ARs about my real-life photo in a giant edition defacing an infohub to grief me; who can ignore my pleas to stop the racist and anti-semitic attacks on my sims and leave the perpetrators walking around without even a warning, the Lindens could cross the street to issue me a warning for "disclosure" of this IM into chat (again, NOT for disclosure of the transcript below, which is not at issue). Shame on them! While Little Benjie will gloat with fanboyz malicious ecstasy, most readers will now understand what they need to know about Benjamin Duranske: he's a petty little police-state informer who misuses the law -- the TOS -- to settle trivial scores that involve basically exposing the fact that he's a vain and craven manipulator.

[17:55] Wrestling Hulka: Have you been following the Perfect Day series from Glenn Beck?
[17:55] Prokofy Neva: but that's the SL look
[17:55] Prokofy Neva: no
[17:56] Tara Yeats: LOL Prok
[17:56] Wrestling Hulka: It's about what the Perfect Day would look like in the eyes of terrorist. The dots seem to be connecting attacks against elementary schools like what happened in Beslan
[17:56] Samurai Sirbu: may i sit here
[17:56] Wrestling Hulka: Scary stuff...
[17:57] Absinthe Seurat: of course
[17:57] Samurai Sirbu: how are you
[17:57] Malburns Writer: this islamic SIM operating under shia law sounds menacing
[17:57] Prokofy Neva: well I will tell you my thoughts on it if you like, I'm not sure if everyone here has even heard about this issue
[17:58] Absinthe Seurat: i haven't
[17:58] Prokofy Neva: My concern began when the SL Bar Association posted an invitation to come to this preview of the Islamic caliphate sim, which I had followed now and then for awhile
[17:58] Peli Dieterle: hi
[17:58] Malburns Writer: trouble is we have too much old world religions in here already
[17:58] Prokofy Neva: and also followed the peregrinations of the guy promoting it, who I am not sure is even Muslim, or at least not from a Muslim country
[17:58] Malburns Writer: guess they all want to follow suit
[17:58] Prokofy Neva: he's Romanian, a leftist sectarian who used to run a thing called CRAEDO
[17:59] Malburns Writer: curious
[17:59] Prokofy Neva: which was a group with Ashcroft Burnham that was promoting something they called the European Democratic Order
[17:59] Prokofy Neva: that sounded like about 3 lies in 3 words or something
[17:59] Prokofy Neva: (which is what Max Schachtmann used to say about the USSR -- four lies in four words lol)
[17:59] Prokofy Neva: so I decided to pipe up
[17:59] Prokofy Neva: I went to the president of the SLBA
[17:59] Prokofy Neva: I said "I'm going to be opening up the Ravenglass Rentals Papal Empire"
[17:59] Prokofy Neva: "we're based on the principles of Catholicism"
[18:00] Prokofy Neva: "leave your gayness at the door"
[18:00] Malburns Writer: lol
[18:00] Prokofy Neva: and" rent my land, and have a dialogue of civilizations but of course with respect and tolerance for my illiberal ideology that I'll guilt trip you into accepting"
[18:00] Tara Yeats: saw your tweet to that effect, Prok.... LOL
[18:00] Prokofy Neva: see, for me, the biggest problem with illiberal ideologies is that they bang on you, and demand you knuckle
[18:00] Prokofy Neva: and if you say "no, you know? I don't think I want a caliphate? no thanks" they say INTOLERANT
[18:00] Prokofy Neva: EVIL
[18:00] Prokofy Neva: AMERICAN
[18:00] Prokofy Neva: WAR
[18:00] Prokofy Neva: BUSH
[18:01] Prokofy Neva: but...I just don't want a caliphate
[18:01] Prokofy Neva: like I don't want a papal empire either
[18:01] Prokofy Neva: and that's just it -- there's no space to say NO
[18:01] Prokofy Neva: and they dragoon people, and get Robin Harper to grace it even
[18:01] Prokofy Neva: did she have to put on a headscarf I wonder? Like Louise Arbour in Iran last week?!
[18:01] Prokofy Neva: One wonders
[18:01] Wrestling Hulka: If you say no it gives them permission to kill you :X
[18:01] Prokofy Neva: The other piece of it is that I don't think Muslims in SL, whatever that means, are necessarily involved in this
[18:01] Malburns Writer: they preach tolerance - that's far from "acceptance"
[18:01] Wrestling Hulka: Which will be hard to do in SL
[18:01] Lem Skall: so you're saying people should not be allowed to create something like that?
[18:02] Prokofy Neva: so it becomes the sort of go-to Muslim sim that the blingsider has blessed, but who the hell knows, does it represent anything but sectarians?
[18:02] Prokofy Neva: No Lem duh I don't ever say that
[18:02] Prokofy Neva: I say that when they do, I push back
[18:02] Prokofy Neva: I push back hard
[18:02] Prokofy Neva: because I don't want it in RL or SL
[18:02] Lem Skall: so WHAT are you saying then?
[18:02] Absinthe Seurat: uhh
[18:02] Wrestling Hulka: Is this group a roleplay ? or are they actually muslims who believe in a world-wide caliphate ?
[18:02] Prokofy Neva: and what they do -- what YOU do -- is to say "oh, you're saying it should be shut down -- EVIL"
[18:02] Prokofy Neva: but I'm saying, no, it should be debated, condemned and exposed
[18:02] Prokofy Neva: in the marketplace of ideas
[18:02] Prokofy Neva: which I'd like to remain free
[18:02] Absinthe Seurat: has this discussion started? and if so, what is the premise?
[18:03] Prokofy Neva: read the events list
[18:03] Absinthe Seurat: i did
[18:03] Malburns Writer: opposed i think
[18:03] Absinthe Seurat: i don't see it is addressed
[18:03] Lem Skall: condemned for what and exposed for what? it's not clear to me yet what they are doing there
[18:03] Prokofy Neva: it's an open debate about whether one should promote illiberal ideas like the caliphate; whether one should even sponsor their events in something like the SLBA; and how you can work toward keeping the discussion free of political correctness
[18:03] Lem Skall: then what about Gor?
[18:03] Malburns Writer: evangelism and mind control should be opposed in SL even more than RL
[18:03] Absinthe Seurat: i see and ty
[18:03] Prokofy Neva: For advocating an Islamic caliphate -- which is something a) most people do not want b) most Muslims probably disagree about c) is a religious rule under sharia law
[18:04] Malburns Writer: it is an alternative life
[18:04] Prokofy Neva: i don't see why that gets to be acceptable
[18:04] Prokofy Neva: anymore than I have to accept Gor
[18:04] Malburns Writer: but communication abuse would have lot of potential for them
[18:04] Prokofy Neva: Gor has a right to exist on its sim; I have a right to say "no"
[18:04] Lem Skall: you don't have to accept it in the sense that you don't have to join it
[18:04] Prokofy Neva: What I see it as a deft maneuver to try to confer legitimacy on something that isn't legitimate
[18:04] Lem Skall: but if they want to RP that then it is their right
[18:04] Prokofy Neva: yes, and I have to resist it in debates with those feting it already like Benjamin
[18:05] Prokofy Neva: and imagine only *he* can have the interlocution with them after first blessing them
[18:05] Absinthe Seurat: i see no problem with anyone doing whatever they want here
[18:05] Prokofy Neva: I'm not for blessing
[18:05] Malburns Writer: RP yes - but is it just that or more?
[18:05] Absinthe Seurat: as long as they leave me alone
[18:05] Prokofy Neva: Yes, but I don't want it blessed as governance and law that infects the Lindens
[18:05] Absinthe Seurat: and i am not ever forced to see it
[18:05] Hydra Shaftoe: Heya Prof. Good to see you again at slcc
[18:05] Prokofy Neva: I don't want a TOS that says I can't condemn the wearing of headscarves and such, without being told I'm "intolerant"
[18:05] Lem Skall: it sounds to me like it's an experiment
[18:05] Prokofy Neva: you really have to work hard to keep open the space for criticism on stuff like this, political correctness becomes paralyzing
[18:06] Absinthe Seurat: oh for heaven's sake
[18:06] Prokofy Neva: Lem, um let me tell you this: having an Islamic caliphate is not an "experiment"
[18:06] Lem Skall: I was there today and I went into the mosque with my shoes on so I don't see any problems
[18:06] Prokofy Neva: that's what's silly about that way of thinking
[18:06] Prokofy Neva: if you want dialogue and exploration, you call yourself "the Center for Interconfessional Dialogue"
[18:06] Lem Skall: pretty much everything in SL is an experiment Prok
[18:06] Prokofy Neva: "The Center for the Study of Islam"
[18:06] Prokofy Neva: you don't say "we are putting in a caliphate in RL and SL
[18:07] Prokofy Neva: If I said I was opening up a grand restoration of the Holy Roman Empire
[18:07] Prokofy Neva: you'd be the first to run for the hills
[18:07] Prokofy Neva: you'd be screeching like a banshee
[18:07] Absinthe Seurat: and people can go or not
[18:07] Prokofy Neva: you'd be screaming, yikes, my cybersex is in danger! to arms! to arms!
[18:07] Lem Skall: on the contrary, I would love to visit the HOLY SHIT!!! Roman Empire
[18:07] Prokofy Neva: but all ilt takes for someone to say "Muslim" and advocate something just like that
[18:07] Lem Skall: lol
[18:07] Prokofy Neva: and you all fall on your kneeds
[18:07] Prokofy Neva: and genuflect, genuflect
[18:07] Prokofy Neva: this isn't about visiting historic builds
[18:07] Absinthe Seurat: speak for yourself
[18:08] Prokofy Neva: if it were that, you 'd say "visit our reconstruction of the ancient blah blah"
[18:08] Hydra Shaftoe: I'm honestly still a little afraid when I see muslims shopping at the supermarket. I know it-s wrong, but I have it deep-ingrained in me to be afraid of them
[18:08] Prokofy Neva: not "we are for putting a caliphate into SL and RL"
[18:08] Lem Skall: I didn't say only historic builds, I would like to visit also the people who RP
[18:08] Prokofy Neva: This isn't RP
[18:08] Lem Skall: I think it is RP
[18:08] Absinthe Seurat: and it isn't rl either
[18:08] Prokofy Neva: no Lem
[18:08] Prokofy Neva: read the card
[18:09] Lem Skall: convince me it's not RP
[18:09] Chosen Raymaker: hear hear Lem
[18:09] Musetta Fieschi: has anyone been to there yet?
[18:09] Musetta Fieschi: *been there*
[18:09] Lem Skall: I was there just an hour ago or so
[18:09] Iota Ultsch: to where?
[18:09] Prokofy Neva: it is not an RP
[18:09] Lem Skall: ran into Michel too
[18:09] Iota Ultsch: racism?
[18:09] Chosen Raymaker: it looked absolutely harmless when i visited
[18:10] Prokofy Neva: and I personally will refuse to go there and bless it and be sucked into this thing where "you don't understand us...you are prejudiced...why if you only came here and studied with us you'll get it"
[18:10] Musetta Fieschi: michel?
[18:10] Prokofy Neva: because that's how sectarianism always work -- like Gor
[18:10] Maria Sosa: interesting...."bless it"?
[18:10] Prokofy Neva: There are real movements in RL that espouse the concept of the caliphate: Hizb-ut-Tahir and Al-Qaeda
[18:10] Lem Skall: Prok, I read this and I read it as RP
[18:10] Tara Yeats: I don't think a visit constitutes a "blessing"
[18:10] Hydra Shaftoe: eh I think sl is a good medium for cultural exposure, but it doesnt really reach the people that actually need some enlightening
[18:11] Prokofy Neva: I don't see them saying, "Unlike Hizb-ut-Tahir and Al-Quaeda, our version of this is X Y Z"
[18:11] Chosen Raymaker: Prok: 1) what evidence do you have its not RP? 2) what evidence do you have that they want to influence LL?
[18:11] You: what place are you talking about?
[18:11] Strange Ranger: So, instead, you're saying that they don't understand, so "they're" prejudiced?
[18:11] Hydra Shaftoe: by and large the people here are pretty accepting
[18:11] Prokofy Neva: I read the cards? And I know the people. And I have watched this phenom in RL and SL.
[18:11] Prokofy Neva: It is not RP; and even if it IS that changes nothing
[18:11] Prokofy Neva: because the aspiration is to impose a caliphate on RL and SL
[18:11] Benjamin Noble: Odd, how I wasn't invited to this little meeting, which appears to be largely about me. Did anyone have any questions I could address?
[18:11] Laurence Furse: i agree
[18:11] Chosen Raymaker: then teach us what you read and what you know
[18:12] Lem Skall: Prok, from the note: " it is a social, political, legal and social project that takes advantage of the opportunities offered by the SL platform to develop virtual communities"
[18:12] Prokofy Neva: actually since Benjamin bans me from his blog, he gets to be expelled from this meeting : )
[18:12] Prokofy Neva: when he is done bannig me from his blog, he can come back : )
[18:12] Hydra Shaftoe: er...
[18:12] Lem Skall: "project" and "virtual communities" reads RP to me
[18:12] Benjamin Noble: I'm banned from Prokofy's blog, I believe.
[18:12] Absinthe Seurat: well that's an open discussion for ya
[18:12] Prokofy Neva: an eye for an eye, Benjie
[18:12] Prokofy Neva: He banned me from my blog, so I banned him from mine *shrugs*
[18:13] Prokofy Neva: but unlike tribalist Benjamin Noble, I have rules for why I ban
[18:13] Prokofy Neva: he doesn't
[18:13] Absinthe Seurat: AND THAT MAKES IT AN OPEN DISCUSSION?
[18:13] Prokofy Neva: if you weep crocodile tears for someone being banned, then ask Benjamin to unban me from his blog Absinthe
[18:13] Hydra Shaftoe: Er ok. I didn't come here to play politics. I'm headed back to sheep island :P
[18:13] Prokofy Neva: I'm not required to keep the door open for him when he has shut me out of his blog just because he doesn't like my criticism of him
[18:13] Hydra Shaftoe: later folks
[18:13] Prokofy Neva: by Hydra Head
[18:14] Absinthe Seurat: Ii don't care who bans anybody
[18:14] You: what place are we talking about?
[18:14] Absinthe Seurat: but
[18:14] Prokofy Neva: I thnk it's so typical and hilarious that Duranske thinks it's a meeting about HIM
[18:14] Prokofy Neva: lol
[18:14] Absinthe Seurat: if it says open
[18:14] Maria Sosa: yes i would like to know where this place is
[18:14] Prokofy Neva: how can you keep SL free? if people ban you from their blogs for criticism Absinthe?
[18:14] Absinthe Seurat: i believe that is what it means
[18:14] Prokofy Neva: if I'm banned from a blog, why would I open up my land? answer that
[18:14] Absinthe Seurat: because i guess
[18:14] 7736237 Paine: to keep SL free..
[18:15] Absinthe Seurat: it makes you the bigger more tolerant person
[18:15] Prokofy Neva: why would I be expected to be more liberal than Benjamin?
[18:15] Prokofy Neva: I tried that for a time; soon he was accusing me of the crime of libel
[18:15] Prokofy Neva: then under my rules, he was inciting RL harm, so he got the ban hammer
[18:15] Lem Skall: Prok, did Ben also ban you from his land?
[18:15] Prokofy Neva: I got the ban hammer from him for saying he is "a major league asshole"
[18:15] Brin Leigh: hi
[18:15] Absinthe Seurat: i see
[18:15] Prokofy Neva: who cares? his land isn't of interest
[18:15] Absinthe Seurat: well it's your discussion
[18:15] Prokofy Neva: his blog is read and touted by the Herald!
[18:15] Prokofy Neva: even!
[18:15] Absinthe Seurat: i am just a visitor
[18:15] Prokofy Neva: and on like TV! and real life!
[18:16] Strange Ranger: This meeting "isn't" about him? The notice said "A group is promoting an Islamic caliphate in RL and SL. Is this merely about cultural diversity and tolerance?" It's his group you were talking about, correct?
[18:16] Prokofy Neva: so I am doing this deliberately to force people to think
[18:16] Prokofy Neva: I'm suppoed to be more liberal than the illiberal Duranske
[18:16] Prokofy Neva: I'm supposed to be more liberal than the caliphaters
[18:16] Prokofy Neva: why?
[18:16] Absinthe Seurat: i think
[18:16] Absinthe Seurat: we are all just us
[18:16] Absinthe Seurat: and in rl i am very tolerant
[18:16] Absinthe Seurat: and in sl
[18:16] Absinthe Seurat: i use no ban lines on any of my land
[18:17] Prokofy Neva: I only ban people who prim litter or crash sims
[18:17] Prokofy Neva: but for Duranske, I'll make an exception
[18:17] Prokofy Neva: I don't see why I need to have an open floor for people who ban me from their blogs
[18:17] Absinthe Seurat: oh well i reckon noobs do that sometimes
[18:17] Prokofy Neva: and it's illustrative of the problem of the caliphate
[18:17] Lem Skall: Prok, you should measure yourself by comparison to Ben, you should JUST BE liberal
[18:17] Absinthe Seurat: i don't mind
[18:17] Prokofy Neva: I'd be burned at the stake in a caliphate
[18:17] Lem Skall: should NOT*
[18:17] Prokofy Neva: so why would I get all multi-culti and gushy about them?
[18:17] You: what is the place we are talking about?
[18:17] 7736237 Paine: ok Prokofy i think we understand your point on the matter, will the discussion be moving forward as noted?
[18:18] Maria Sosa: right about now the caliphate sounds welcoming and open compared to this
[18:18] Prokofy Neva: I am liberal, I keep the floor open to free discussion, otherwise, Duranske would be here talking about his vain self again and clogging the airwaves
[18:18] Lem Skall: you mean like you at the office hours?
[18:18] Prokofy Neva: well I am only answering concerns from all the giddy liberals worried about Duranske's freedoms, but never mine : )
[18:18] Prokofy Neva: and that is illustrative of our problem here
[18:18] Prokofy Neva: the caliphate would kill most of you here
[18:18] Prokofy Neva: for being furry, or gay, or BDSM, or even merely female
[18:18] Prokofy Neva: is that ok?
[18:19] Lem Skall: how do you know already what the caliphate will do?
[18:19] Malburns Writer: no
[18:19] Maria Sosa: that is before you tp out of a place
[18:19] Prokofy Neva: how do you propose that NOT get started? and spread?
[18:19] Prokofy Neva: because I study the real life movements that advocate this up close?
[18:19] Prokofy Neva: one of them in fact I didn't have to study by traveling, they came to me!
[18:19] Absinthe Seurat: well if you consider the holy wars
[18:19] Prokofy Neva: on 9/11/01!
[18:19] Malburns Writer: yes - threat is not here
[18:19] Prokofy Neva: for example
[18:19] Absinthe Seurat: i believe the Pope decided Muslims were a threat
[18:19] Malburns Writer: is in the use of SL for RL propaganda
[18:20] Absinthe Seurat: and murdered all he could get his papal hand on
[18:20] Prokofy Neva: well that's why you wouldn't want to install a Papal empire
[18:20] Prokofy Neva: or get all dewey eyed about the Holy Roman Empire
[18:20] Prokofy Neva: you might say, ok, have the Catholic Church, but let it know its place!
[18:20] Prokofy Neva: let it not get in my bed!
[18:21] Prokofy Neva: so ... how are you going to be dealing with the caliphate then?
[18:21] Absinthe Seurat: lol
[18:21] Lem Skall: I will visit it
[18:21] Absinthe Seurat: i may visit it
[18:21] Absinthe Seurat: appreciate the build
[18:21] Absinthe Seurat: and then leave
[18:21] Prokofy Neva: it's good to see that interactive time line map on the Internet that shows the history of the crusades and the Tatar hordes and such
[18:21] Absinthe Seurat: and i may not
[18:21] You: visit WHAT
[18:21] Absinthe Seurat: depends
[18:21] Maria Sosa: the same way, everything run's its course trying to flail your arms and stop people from living their lives is where oppression starts
[18:21] Prokofy Neva: it's easy to see who did what to whom when, on what time line, and how the line was pushed back and forth
[18:22] Prokofy Neva: oppression for me starts with people thinking there's nothing wrong with a caliphate
[18:22] Prokofy Neva: that it's about architecture
[18:22] Prokofy Neva: and multiculti stuff
[18:22] Absinthe Seurat: well i will not be a part of the next time line
[18:22] Maria Sosa: oppression does not start with a thought- it starts with action
[18:22] Prokofy Neva: good! so you won't roll over when the Islamicists make you wear a head scarf? or?
[18:22] Malburns Writer: arts culture and heritage are fine
[18:22] Maria Sosa: wanting something is not having it
[18:22] Malburns Writer: propaganda is not
[18:22] Prokofy Neva: yes, an action like opening up an island in SL, and saying "we're here, the caliphate must prevail!"
[18:22] Absinthe Seurat: it's a sim
[18:23] Absinthe Seurat: there are a lot of them
[18:23] You: name of the sim?
[18:23] Maria Sosa: so they buy an island to live how they want to live
[18:23] Prokofy Neva: The Al-Andalus Caliphate Project reconstructs 13th Century Moor Alhambra and builds around this virtual space a community of individuals willing to explore the modalities of interaction between different languages, nationalities, religions and cultures within a political and juridical space shaped by authentic Islamic principles. As such, it is a social, political, legal and social project that takes advantage of the opportunities offered by the SL platform to develop virtual communities around a fixed virtual place and model its growth and development with real individuals from across the world - all while intergrating a sense of gaming, entertainment, and sheer fun.
[18:23] Maria Sosa: where is this sim
[18:23] Absinthe Seurat: it's not a pandemic virus
[18:23] Lem Skall: Prok, you need to get a reality pill
[18:23] Malburns Writer: it is two adjacet SIMs formed together now
[18:23] Prokofy Neva: Al Andalus Caliphate Project Website/ Blog: http://www.al-andalus-sl.com/
[18:23] Absinthe Seurat: ohhh
[18:23] Absinthe Seurat: like that is soooo scary
[18:23] Prokofy Neva: yes indeed it is
[18:23] Maria Sosa: if people come here to live their dream then they get a chance to see if it would work in real life
[18:24] Brin Leigh: gamin in a Muslim Sim??
[18:24] Prokofy Neva: that part about "shaped by Islamic principles"
[18:24] Prokofy Neva: you can't have a free debate with pluralism
[18:24] Maria Sosa: that's scary?
[18:24] Prokofy Neva: this isn't the dialogue of civilzationS plural
[18:24] Prokofy Neva: or religions PLURAL
[18:24] Absinthe Seurat: who cares is the point?
[18:24] Absinthe Seurat: no one has to go there
[18:24] Malburns Writer: all religion is afterlife propaganda for social control
[18:24] Prokofy Neva: it has to be SHAPED by ISLAMIC PRINCIPLES
[18:24] Prokofy Neva: and...what are they?
[18:24] Maria Sosa: its a private sim
[18:24] Laurence Furse: social control
[18:24] Malburns Writer: no death in sl - what is purpose of afterlife propaganda?
[18:24] Prokofy Neva: You know, I used to feel that way about Al Qaeda, that no one has to go there or care that much or get involevd.
[18:24] You: I find it under Al Andalus Generallife, under places
[18:25] You: one l
[18:25] You: generalife
[18:25] Prokofy Neva: Well Al Andalus interestingly enough is the liberal golden age of Islam
[18:25] Prokofy Neva: it is the era even when Maimonedes, the Jew and author of Guide for the Perplexed lived among the Moors or Arabs who invaded Spain
[18:25] Prokofy Neva: or "came to spain" or "migrated"
[18:25] Prokofy Neva: migrated
[18:25] Prokofy Neva: depending on who tells the story
[18:26] Prokofy Neva: and Avicenna dates from this period
[18:26] Prokofy Neva: and people who are interested in reforming Islam go to this period
[18:26] Maria Sosa: was that when the european scholars were chased out of europe for thinking the earth revolved around the sun?
[18:26] Prokofy Neva: that's why it's curious that this very period, mined by modernists and liberals in the muslim traditions
[18:26] Prokofy Neva: is then also invoking the caliphate
[18:26] Prokofy Neva: which isn't always invoked so aggressively
[18:26] Absinthe Seurat: why would i ever want to reform anyone?
[18:27] Prokofy Neva: and Nobody Fugazi's notion of it is skewed, he believes the caliphate is an innocent ingathering of the tribes
[18:27] Prokofy Neva: nothing more than the Russian Orthodox sobornost, let's say, the community of differing factions or Islam
[18:27] Absinthe Seurat: based on your view?
[18:27] Prokofy Neva: but that's insane, that's not how the people themselves talk about it
[18:27] Prokofy Neva: You don't have Sunnis and Shites sitting down together to make the caliphate; the Sunnis get to run the caliphate
[18:27] Prokofy Neva: that's why I can't see that the caliphate is a liberalization
[18:28] Laurence Furse: social control
[18:28] Absinthe Seurat: who cares?
[18:28] Prokofy Neva: if you don't care, Absinthe, you don't have to discuss this now, go back to your sim and go dancing or whatever
[18:28] Laurence Furse: =^.^= Meow!
[18:28] Laurence Furse: =^.^= Meow!
[18:28] Absinthe Seurat: i see :)
[18:28] Absinthe Seurat: cute
[18:29] Malburns Writer: some are gullible and SL should not be a place where fundamentalism of any persuasion can come to impose their will on others
[18:29] Prokofy Neva: Coalition for the Re-Formation of the Euro-American Democratic Order (CRÆDO) We aim to be the first global grass-roots movement whose goal is to have a significant impact on the local, national and international challenges we face today. We welcome individuals, corporations and non-profit organizations to become actively involved in a unique experiment attempting to re-imagine the notions of "Democracy, Prosperity and Diversity for the 21. Century".
[18:29] Prokofy Neva: that's the rap on the other group Manen was in
[18:29] Absinthe Seurat: if you want complete control and spew your views
[18:29] Prokofy Neva: I dunno, when I see the phrase "democratic order," i cringe
[18:29] Strange Ranger: So, what are you proposing, Prokofy? What do you want to see happen?.. or not happen?
[18:29] Malburns Writer: the space is ever expanding and there is no territorial prerogative here
[18:29] Absinthe Seurat: i will leave gracefully
[18:29] Absinthe Seurat: lovely to meet you all
[18:29] Frankie Antonioni: I read that the Ayatollah Khomeini said for his people not to marry anyone under 9 years old, but to only have them as mistresses.
[18:29] Prokofy Neva: Strange, I would like there to be robust and vigorous debats about these ideologies
[18:30] Prokofy Neva: I don't think they get to come in and take root and everybody just rolls over
[18:30] Absinthe Seurat: and really in your own way
[18:30] Prokofy Neva: I think you have to push at the official propaganda about them
[18:30] 7736237 Paine: Prokofy, have you raised your comments with the SIM owner in question or received any feedback on the matter?
[18:30] Prokofy Neva: and I think you need to be quite provocative, since they are bold and provocative too
[18:30] Absinthe Seurat: you are doing the same thing
[18:30] Absinthe Seurat: and that is a shame
[18:30] Prokofy Neva: I mean, the Muslims I know in RL would be rather shocked at the idea of coming into SL and announcing themselves as THE caliphate
[18:30] Prokofy Neva: it's wild
[18:30] Maria Sosa: as long as sl is a welcome place for men and women to drag around other men and women by chains and have them bark like a dog on command, im not going to be terrified that some people decided to purchase sims so they could practice their religion in peace, their way, thank you for the little meeting but this felt like a meeting to gather everyone and tell them to be afraid of muslims or people who want to RP as muslims especially since democracy was formed in the middle east- goodnight all if i wanted anti-muslim fear i would listen to right wing talk radio
[18:30] Prokofy Neva: are they doing that? or not doing it? it's not clear
[18:31] Prokofy Neva: I think Mal that the attitudes in Europe and the US are very different to these issues
[18:31] Prokofy Neva: and that alone is a debate worth having
[18:31] Prokofy Neva: for example, Americans don't get obsessed about headscarves
[18:31] Prokofy Neva: they say go ahead, wear them
[18:31] Malburns Writer: yes - at present yes it seems
[18:31] Prokofy Neva: So I see this spectacle: I go to the FEDEX, the dentist, the xerox place
[18:31] Absinthe Seurat: i am American
[18:31] Prokofy Neva: and there are women wrapped up in scarves
[18:31] Prokofy Neva: working in jobs that they'd NEVER have in their homelands
[18:31] Prokofy Neva: for which they came to the US
[18:32] Absinthe Seurat: jeez
[18:32] Prokofy Neva: wearing scarevs alloed by the post office and all civil institutions as normal religious head attire, like Jews or Sikhs
[18:32] Absinthe Seurat: what is your problem?
[18:32] Tara Yeats: and the problem with that, Prok is....?
[18:32] Prokofy Neva: and taking advantage of the liberalisms of America
[18:32] 7736237 Paine: so what are you impling, persons that wear traditional head wear can only find a job in the US
[18:32] Prokofy Neva: and yet that statement, that head scarf for some is a powerful statement of submission to an oppressive ideology
[18:32] Tara Yeats: how is it any different than wwearing a cross? or monastic robes?
[18:32] Prokofy Neva: and that's why the French get into a lather about it and ban it
[18:32] Prokofy Neva: well 123094781203948172349023874 pain that's a dumbass remark
[18:32] Strange Ranger: "Taking advantage of"? Isn't that what it's all about, anyway?
[18:32] Prokofy Neva: if that's how you see it, you are reading-challenged
[18:32] Prokofy Neva: yes taking advantage
[18:33] Malburns Writer: the scarf issue is a real problem for some feminists i know for example
[18:33] Prokofy Neva: but at what point will those women's daughters say "no" and then need backing?
[18:33] Malburns Writer: is it a statement of culture
[18:33] Prokofy Neva: when can they STOP or NOT have the headscarf should they WISH
[18:33] Malburns Writer: or a symbol of male repression of women
[18:33] Strange Ranger: So, I'm taking advantage, by being Athiest?
[18:33] Malburns Writer: a dilemma
[18:33] Prokofy Neva: I think it has to cut both ways: wear it if you wish; not wear it if you wish
[18:33] Absinthe Seurat: what exactly is your agenda here?
[18:33] Prokofy Neva: what's yours hon?
[18:34] Absinthe Seurat: before you eject me i would like to know
[18:34] Prokofy Neva: I'm for having debates and seeing what people think
[18:34] Absinthe Seurat: i live in the USA
[18:34] Prokofy Neva: I don't eject people for speaking, unless they prim litter and scatter particles
[18:34] 7736237 Paine: ok from a dumb ass layman, what are you trying to convey?
[18:34] Malburns Writer: thats why we are here
[18:34] Prokofy Neva: but if I'm banned from their blog, hey, eye for an eye on that one
[18:34] Absinthe Seurat: a democratic society
[18:34] Prokofy Neva: in fact I should ban Robin Harper as she banned me from the Linden blog!
[18:34] Prokofy Neva: lol
[18:34] Lem Skall: Prok, they have the right to do whatever they want, if they want to wear a scarf and be submissive, then it's their business
[18:34] Absinthe Seurat: we welcome people and we do our best
[18:34] Absinthe Seurat: to accommodate them
[18:35] Absinthe Seurat: and that is why people move here
[18:35] Absinthe Seurat: because we are tolreraNT
[18:35] Absinthe Seurat: AND WE FORGET THE DAMN TIMELINES
[18:35] Prokofy Neva: I think it's important to discuss these things, someone said they feared Muslims in the store -- is this in the U.S. or Europe?
[18:35] Absinthe Seurat: and we don't bring it up
[18:35] Prokofy Neva: but they force others to put it on
[18:35] Prokofy Neva: how does that fly?
[18:35] Prokofy Neva: I'm supposed to be tolerant and let them wear it
[18:35] Prokofy Neva: but they force me to wear it if I don't want to
[18:36] Prokofy Neva: that's the problem with illiberalism
[18:36] Prokofy Neva: you get all angry about the failure of the liberal to deliver liberalism each time
[18:36] Prokofy Neva: and never lift a finger to worry about the illiberal
[18:36] Prokofy Neva: so where does it end? they begin to encroach, bleed in, and get legitimacy conferred on them
[18:36] Malburns Writer: it is hard to see how people in here could actually be "forced" into anything in some ways
[18:36] Absinthe Seurat: i have no ida what an illiberal is
[18:36] Absinthe Seurat: i am ignoranant of that term
[18:36] 7736237 Paine: Prokofy, as a matter of interest what is your religion?
[18:37] Malburns Writer: but the intent to do so should be opposed
[18:37] Prokofy Neva: I have an a good idea
[18:37] Prokofy Neva: example: this morning in Ravenglass two griefers come
[18:37] Malburns Writer: why should be have a "religion"
[18:37] Malburns Writer: i dont!
[18:37] Lem Skall: Prok, what you are doing though is promoting hatred, which THEY are not doing, btw
[18:37] Prokofy Neva: one is dressed in a nun's habit -- Alyx Stoklitsky, ok, whatever, she enjoys dressing up as a nun
[18:37] Prokofy Neva: it's rude, some would find it offensive, I care not
[18:38] Malburns Writer: if i have faith it is something one discovers personally
[18:38] Prokofy Neva: her little griefing buddy is a new guy named Blak Hax
[18:38] Malburns Writer: not by the decree of others
[18:38] Prokofy Neva: now he's more problematic because he's waring a shirt with a Mogen David and "Jews of SL" as his tag -- but not because he really is Jewish and cares about supporting the symbol
[18:38] 7736237 Paine: understand Malburns
[18:38] Prokofy Neva: he's doing it as an act of griefing and shock
[18:38] Prokofy Neva: so wearing these symbols he flies around bothering people
[18:38] Prokofy Neva: he's joined an open group of Jews in SL
[18:38] Prokofy Neva: for affirming identity
[18:39] Prokofy Neva: and hijacked its symbols and title for his greifing
[18:39] Prokofy Neva: btw a number of them did that on 9/11, the makers of those giant grief cubes
[18:39] Prokofy Neva: they joined Jews of SL
[18:39] Prokofy Neva: to incite hatred of the Jews -- and that's wrong, and that has to be said
[18:39] Prokofy Neva: so that's illiberalism
[18:39] Prokofy Neva: I'm supposed to say, oh, it's an open group, an oh *cough* this griefer, why, he may really be Jewish! he may be affirming his roots1
[18:39] Prokofy Neva: cough
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: but then...why is he flying around after being banned over and over? sending $1 grief payments, etc
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: and that is the problem of Second Life
[18:40] Lem Skall: Prok, I am Jewish and I didn't read incitement against Jews in that
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: there aren't the checks and balances of RL
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: I do
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: because that is exactly what it is
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: it is creating symbols for people to hate
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: to associate with griefing
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: this method is done all the time
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: you are just being contrarian in the way hard leftists love to be about anti-semitism, constantly dismissing it as a reality
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: you've already vented all that on my blog, and I get it, the next thing you'll be telling me is that Semites are an Arab race, and that anti-Semitism is being against Palestinians
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: rolls eyes
[18:41] Lem Skall: no anti-semitism IS reality, but not THIS one
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: oh but it is
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: it's purpose is to undermine the sense of what is real and what is in fact antisemitism
[18:41] Lem Skall: No it isn't and you are offensive again
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: by making it seem like a funny role play
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: no, you are, because you can't accept the sinister ill will and bad faith is at play here
[18:41] Absinthe Seurat: prof
[18:41] Frankie Antonioni: Last Sat., I saw a whole bunch of giant sized dollar bills, and there was Jewish music playing.
[18:42] Prokofy Neva: I'd like to ask 100 other jews whether they find it offensive, and I bet I will find 80 percent will
[18:42] Absinthe Seurat: you seem to be a strong individual
[18:42] Lem Skall: an Irish lecturing me, a Jew, about anti-semitism
[18:42] Prokofy Neva: your take is merely contrarian
[18:42] Malburns Writer: anti-zionism is often misintepreted as anti-semitism too
[18:42] Lem Skall: I said IT IS offensive, but not anti-semitism
[18:42] Prokofy Neva: dressing up in a Jewish symbolic outfit and flying around like that and griefing, that's creepy, that's deliberate, that's hateful
[18:42] Absinthe Seurat: but realy
[18:42] Absinthe Seurat: you need to relax
[18:42] Lem Skall: not hateful
[18:42] Prokofy Neva: if you say it's just "shock value" I say: it can shock because it is based in real antisemitism
[18:42] Prokofy Neva: Absinthe if robust debate disturbs you, go back to your sim
[18:43] Lem Skall: robust my ass
[18:43] Absinthe Seurat: and dance?
[18:43] 7736237 Paine: yeh we get that we can leave at anytime Prokofy, you're repetitive comments begin to annoy
[18:43] Absinthe Seurat: that was a belittling comment you know
[18:43] 7736237 Paine: we don't need your approval to return to where we came from
[18:44] Lem Skall: Prok is one of the most offensive people in SL
[18:44] Absinthe Seurat: considering you are so liberal
[18:44] Prokofy Neva: Duranske is just like the b/tards
[18:44] Lem Skall: anyone is surprised by that?
[18:44] Prokofy Neva: he's skulking around on Gov Linden land to eavesdrop
[18:44] Prokofy Neva: ROFL
[18:45] Absinthe Seurat: you know
[18:45] Frankie Antonioni: Hey Prokofy, does Uri ever come.
[18:45] Prokofy Neva: hilarious
[18:45] Prokofy Neva: yes
[18:45] Prokofy Neva: but he's busy the first few weeks of school
[18:46] Absinthe Seurat: pont of order here
[18:46] Absinthe Seurat: original discussion plASE :)
[18:46] Prokofy Neva: this is the original discussion hon
[18:46] Prokofy Neva: now the second part of my invitation talked about Chinese dissidents
[18:46] Absinthe Seurat: i don't think so
[18:46] Absinthe Seurat: this is your original discussion
[18:46] Prokofy Neva: so Jessica Holyoke advocates on the Herald that Linden should turn them into the Chinese government
[18:47] Prokofy Neva: so as not to lose the platform's access
[18:47] Lem Skall: link please
[18:47] Prokofy Neva: Absinthe, you are being disruptive, and courting an ejection, final warning
[18:47] Absinthe Seurat: ok
[18:47] Prokofy Neva: I can't tab out of SL now without crashing Lem it's on the Herald
[18:47] Prokofy Neva: under the article I did like 7 days ago about Philip Linden
[18:47] Lem Skall: what Prok? can't take robust debate?
[18:47] Prokofy Neva: and his interview with the BBC where he kind of ducked and covered
[18:47] Prokofy Neva: Absinthe is not saying anything of meaning or substance
[18:48] Kryss Wanweird: Good evening, sorry I'm late.
[18:48] Absinthe Seurat: well i am very sorry if i offended anyone
[18:48] Prokofy Neva: she's just badgering and being a little dimwit argumentative twit
[18:48] Prokofy Neva: : )
[18:48] Lem Skall: neither are you Prok
[18:48] Prokofy Neva: well then have your own discussion Lem, Sl is still free
[18:48] Lem Skall: you're just ranting
[18:48] 7736237 Paine: i disagree, isn't this an open public forum
[18:48] Prokofy Neva: so what does Wanwierd think about the caliphate?
[18:48] Tara Yeats: so does that suggest, Prok, that my Tibetan rangzen band supporting tibetan freedom should also be SL non grata?!
[18:48] Prokofy Neva: I know you hate God stuff; does this bother you?
[18:48] Prokofy Neva: why would it be?
[18:48] Lem Skall: right on, Tara
[18:48] Prokofy Neva: I have a whole community called Free Tibet
[18:49] Prokofy Neva: I'm for not reporting anyone like that to the Chinese
[18:49] Prokofy Neva: that's the issue
[18:49] Prokofy Neva: the issue isn't having a religious sim
[18:49] Kryss Wanweird: Well, particulary, they were very nice to me, when i was in Saudi Arabia.
[18:49] Prokofy Neva: I have 5 religious properties I support
[18:49] Prokofy Neva: Tibetan, Catholic, Christian, even Druid
[18:49] Prokofy Neva: so sacred places are important in SL
[18:49] Prokofy Neva: but I don'to say that we have to install the Holy Roman Empire
[18:49] Absinthe Seurat: guillotine is a different timeline
[18:49] Tara Yeats: nor am I - but obviously the Dalai Lama isn't exactly a fav w/the Chinese
[18:49] Prokofy Neva: the Druidic Temple of Specialness or whatever
[18:49] Prokofy Neva: I don't impose that
[18:49] Prokofy Neva: and that's what a caliphate is
[18:49] Prokofy Neva: it's different
[18:49] Absinthe Seurat: guess you will use it on me
[18:50] Bryce Galbraith: Hi
[18:50] Prokofy Neva: Hi Bryce
[18:51] Bryce Galbraith: Is this the governance and human rights discussion?
[18:51] Prokofy Neva: yes
[18:51] 7736237 Paine: Prok so have various religious properties why don't you have an Islamic/Muslim region
[18:51] Prokofy Neva: because I simply don't wish to
[18:51] Prokofy Neva: it's a free country
[18:51] Prokofy Neva: : )
[18:51] BobDobbs Kidd: Is the place were this caliphate is located private?
[18:51] Prokofy Neva: someone else can have one
[18:51] Lem Skall: this is Prok's governance and human rights discussion
[18:51] Prokofy Neva: I don't have a Jewish one either, but I visit the Jewish synagogue sim occasionally
[18:51] 7736237 Paine: so do you see it that you can't make money from particular religions then?
[18:51] Prokofy Neva: yes well life is about choices Lem
[18:52] Absinthe Seurat: well are they trying to take over your sim?
[18:52] Prokofy Neva: you can have the caliphate governance and human rights discussion, and see how you do there : )
[18:52] Prokofy Neva: they will unless you say NO early and often
[18:52] Prokofy Neva: and help shape the discussion, just as they think they can shape it
[18:52] Prokofy Neva: they want to shape it with Islamic principles
[18:52] Prokofy Neva: I don't
[18:52] Prokofy Neva: I want to shape it with Judeo-Christian principles, let's say
[18:52] Prokofy Neva: someone else may have some other principles
[18:52] Prokofy Neva: so you have to speak up
[18:52] Prokofy Neva: for your principles
[18:52] Malburns Writer: maybe there should be a religious hertiage continent and let tham all sort it out themselves anyway from rest of us
[18:52] Prokofy Neva: or they will be trampled under other people's
[18:52] Prokofy Neva: and that's how it is
[18:52] Lem Skall: your principles disturb me, I haven't seen theirs yet
[18:53] Prokofy Neva: hahaha mal
[18:53] Prokofy Neva: it's not my principles that disturb you, Lem, they are classic liberal principles; it's my challenge of your tropism to illiberalism that bothers you
[18:53] Prokofy Neva: you can't accept that prick to your leftie conscience
[18:53] Courtroom Kidd: The fundamental principle is liberty
[18:53] Absinthe Seurat: prof
[18:53] 7736237 Paine: but if it can't be sorted in RL what chance does a SL have
[18:53] Prokofy Neva: Absence?
[18:54] Prokofy Neva: does anybody else find her silly and annoying lol
[18:54] BobDobbs Kidd: What are judeo-Christian principles?
[18:54] Lem Skall: for Prok liberty is only for him to rant
[18:54] Effulgent Brown: no
[18:54] Absinthe Seurat: it appears you don't care for anyone to engage with you who doesn't agree with you
[18:54] 7736237 Paine: no
[18:54] Prokofy Neva: BobDobbs I think they are different things to different people
[18:54] Absinthe Seurat: that's sad :(
[18:54] Prokofy Neva: but I think there are basic tenets which are: dignity of the individual, the right of the individual against the collective
[18:54] You: heavens to mergatroid
[18:54] Prokofy Neva: and the concept of the rule of law, of some higher principle that governs the conscience and law
[18:54] You: he is presenting this entire arena for you to engage with him
[18:54] Prokofy Neva: also equality of men and women, that was hard won in this tradition itself
[18:55] 7736237 Paine: Prokofy are you jewish?
[18:55] BobDobbs Kidd: If one cannot define them how do you know what they are?
[18:55] Prokofy Neva: no I'm Catholic
[18:55] Prokofy Neva: irish Catholic
[18:55] 7736237 Paine: excuse me for being forward, but are you gay?
[18:55] Laurence Furse: =^.^= Meow!
[18:55] Laurence Furse: =^.^= Meow!
[18:55] Absinthe Seurat: who has to define anyone?
[18:55] Prokofy Neva: I don't think so.
[18:55] Prokofy Neva: Am I gay?
[18:55] Absinthe Seurat: i never do
[18:55] Prokofy Neva: I'm a single mom of 2
[18:55] Prokofy Neva: lol
[18:55] 7736237 Paine: ;) just a thought sorry
[18:55] Prokofy Neva: I'm transgendered tho in SL
[18:56] Prokofy Neva: is that what you mean?
[18:56] Prokofy Neva: Is that "gay"? I don't know, because I don't belong to the GLBT religion
[18:56] 7736237 Paine: yes, thanks for clearing it up
[18:56] Prokofy Neva: are you gay 123094781239048723 pain?
[18:56] 7736237 Paine: yes
[18:56] Malburns Writer: lol
[18:57] Prokofy Neva: so how do you think you'll do in the caliphate?
[18:57] Prokofy Neva: Islam is not friendly to gays,certainly less than the Catholics
[18:57] Kryss Wanweird: Oh.. painfull..
[18:57] 7736237 Paine: hmm well i try to accept everyone..if we are made in His image, should we not love each other to honour God..
[18:57] Absinthe Seurat: fanatic is a person who won't change his mind, nor change the subject
[18:57] 7736237 Paine: even though of our personal..ways
[18:57] Prokofy Neva: you would think it shouldn't matter terribly because when you die you won't have a body to have a distinction about your gender or whatever, but there it is, they get upset about it
[18:58] You: well, we should paine, but i don't
[18:58] Prokofy Neva: religious traditions die hard
[18:58] You: it causes me considerable guilt
[18:58] Malburns Writer: at least there is no contraception debate here - lol
[18:58] Lem Skall: Prok, you don't know yet what the caliphate will do
[18:58] You: very few that I don't, but when I don't, well . . . that causes guilt
[18:58] Prokofy Neva: and that's why I don't think they're the best organizing principles of governance
[18:58] Tara Yeats: LOL Mal
[18:58] Prokofy Neva: and that's why the SLBA shouldn't be feigning that this is governance when it is religion
[18:58] Prokofy Neva: I think separation of church and state is a good invention of the Judeo-Christian tradition
[18:59] Lem Skall: I don't see that as religion, especially as the builders are not Muslim
[18:59] Prokofy Neva: Islamic principles
[18:59] Malburns Writer: a good invention that isn't working right now in the west
[18:59] Lem Skall: principles of law
[18:59] Prokofy Neva: they are an interweaving ofculture/eligion /everything
[18:59] Prokofy Neva: that's why you have to worry
[18:59] Prokofy Neva: they are total and totalitarian in their approach
[19:00] 7736237 Paine: but Prok that's their decision and perogative isn't it..
[19:00] Lem Skall: they haven't done anything yet, just built a sim, you can't say what they are doing
[19:00] BobDobbs Kidd: How is separation of church and state a J/C invention?
[19:00] Effulgent Brown: aren't gor sims that tell you that you must respect their ways once you get off the boat the same way? you get the rules at the door and you either like them or tp out?
[19:00] Prokofy Neva: because it is? look at the countries
[19:00] Prokofy Neva: and they have done more than build
[19:00] Prokofy Neva: read their webs site
[19:00] Prokofy Neva: Here's a very troublesome aspect
[19:00] Prokofy Neva: one with RL resonance
[19:00] Bryce Galbraith: I always thought of the separation of church and state as a product of the Enlightenment...
[19:00] Prokofy Neva: "rights and duties of avatars"
[19:01] Prokofy Neva: that approach is the Arab world's approach at the UN
[19:01] Prokofy Neva: and the NAM types like Cuba
[19:01] Absinthe Seurat: so who are you going for first prof?
[19:01] Prokofy Neva: it's rejected by the West and more democratic East
[19:01] Absinthe Seurat: ho is second?
[19:01] Absinthe Seurat: third?
[19:01] Absinthe Seurat: fourth
[19:01] Prokofy Neva: the idea that you are forced to have responsibilties to an overbearing state
[19:01] Absinthe Seurat: fifth?
[19:01] Prokofy Neva: responsibilities can come from morality and even criminal law
[19:01] Lem Skall: I will not have any responsibilities to the caliphate because I will not be a member
[19:01] Prokofy Neva: but there is a reason why in 50 years of treaties there aren't "responsibilities of man"
[19:02] BobDobbs Kidd: I belive that seperation of church and state was formed because the founding fathers resented payin 10% to the church of england.
[19:02] Prokofy Neva: the French didn't have "les droits de l'homme" and also responsibilities
[19:02] Prokofy Neva: this matters
[19:02] Prokofy Neva: so they are sneaking that in, and in a cunning way
[19:02] Prokofy Neva: making people think oh, gosh, why wouldn't I want to be responsible?! what, am I retarded?!
[19:02] Prokofy Neva: in SL especially it's very PC
[19:02] Malburns Writer: maybe separation was because churches were unfit to "govern"
[19:03] Prokofy Neva: the red box of censorship
[19:03] Prokofy Neva: that's what I get at Benjie's blog
[19:03] Prokofy Neva: lol
[19:03] Lem Skall: and what he gets at yours
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: damn right he does
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: because he is threatening me with a libel suit
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: I'd never do that to someone over a blog, that's silly
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: Benjamin is starring in a movie here as George Bailey and Clarence Darrow all rolled into one
[19:04] Lem Skall: actually, your blog IS dangerous
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: you know, Gregory Peck sort of thing? Misunderstood, but right! Charging forward against all those backward bloggers like Prok?
[19:04] You: it is?
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: good!
[19:05] Malburns Writer: if dangerous, needed
[19:05] You: ideas are dangerous?
[19:05] Prokofy Neva: Malburns you read a lot of blogs, more than anybody
[19:05] Prokofy Neva: what do you think?
[19:05] Lem Skall: crazy ideas that promote hatred, yes
[19:05] 7736237 Paine: Koala's are dangerous lol nah just jokes
[19:05] Prokofy Neva: how can SL be kept free?
[19:05] Absinthe Seurat: apparently discussion is
[19:05] Frankie Antonioni: Can Benjamin see what we are typing?
[19:05] Prokofy Neva: I think it's good to fight back against hatred
[19:05] You: well, i dont think they are "crazy ideas that promote hatred"
[19:05] Prokofy Neva: I'm tearing Vint a second one for all her vitriol, yeesh
[19:06] Prokofy Neva: par example
[19:06] Malburns Writer: i think religions generally oppose new ideas
[19:06] Courtroom Kidd: It is a corporate fascist state - somewhat benevolent
[19:06] Malburns Writer: i love the diversity and freedom here
[19:06] You: where it wishes to be
[19:06] Malburns Writer: most things do not collide with others
[19:07] Courtroom Kidd: It is very fragile
[19:07] Malburns Writer: there is space for everything
[19:07] You: I have never bought that freedom stuff about SL
[19:07] You: you're only as free as they let you be
[19:07] Prokofy Neva: I wonder if I went to the next blog over from Duranske's on the Internet, I could whisper heresies to his readers ROFL
[19:07] Prokofy Neva: Virtually Blind...let's see what's the next one? Virtually Blinkered
[19:07] You: I find it, actually, quite not free
[19:07] Prokofy Neva: Virtually Blonde
[19:07] Malburns Writer: but i would hate to see elements moving in to try and grasp control
[19:07] You: because
[19:07] You: it has that undercurrent of, watch your step, or you will be banned
[19:07] Malburns Writer: not that i think they would suceed
[19:08] You: that's another thing
[19:08] Malburns Writer: any more than commerce where it fails to understand the population
[19:08] Prokofy Neva: if I could wedge myself between Virtual Blonde and Blinkered
[19:08] Courtroom Kidd: there have to be limits for any society to function
[19:08] You: elements already have moved in and established control, because this isn't run like a democratic society
[19:08] Prokofy Neva: that's well said Malburns
[19:08] You: so for all the talk of freedom, I really don't see it
[19:08] Prokofy Neva: do you think commerce erases all differences of culture?
[19:08] Prokofy Neva: or is there a clash over commerce itself based on religious traditions?
[19:08] 7736237 Paine: why hasn't a government been introduced into SL
[19:08] Prokofy Neva: no one wanted one
[19:08] Prokofy Neva: except Gwyn and Ulrika
[19:09] Bryce Galbraith: There is at least one government in SL...
[19:09] Prokofy Neva: and mercifully they kept it on one sim
[19:09] BobDobbs Kidd: Prok , I like that question.
[19:09] Bryce Galbraith: in Neufreistadt.
[19:09] Prokofy Neva: it didn't replicate thank God
[19:09] Malburns Writer: there is an anti-materialistic aspect to some cultures and religions
[19:09] Malburns Writer: that does not go down too well with consumerist commerce
[19:09] Frankie Antonioni: Dreamland comes close./
[19:09] Bryce Galbraith: http://neufreistadt.info/
[19:09] Prokofy Neva: well Bob it's my thesis that a great deal of the strife over things like freebies or Anshe "dumping" or orientation island graft and such is about different values of commerce springing from different religious and cultural traditions
[19:09] Prokofy Neva: what's that book that outlines the different commerce cultures, is it World on Fire or something
[19:10] Prokofy Neva: about the Chinese, Jews, Georgians in societies where they are diaspora
[19:10] Prokofy Neva: very fascinating
[19:10] Courtroom Kidd: commerce is ineffective without moral underpinnings
[19:10] Malburns Writer: dont think i know it
[19:10] Absinthe Seurat: oh
[19:10] 7736237 Paine: but i don't understand, who gives one resident the authority to say..oh hey stop selling stuff so cheap
[19:10] BobDobbs Kidd: strife?
[19:10] Courtroom Kidd: these are provided by religious traditions
[19:10] Absinthe Seurat: you mean people?
[19:10] Prokofy Neva: there's a fastidious loathing of commerce in SL from the hard left that might as well be coming from the depths of Sharia's hatred of usury and such, for all its preachiness
[19:10] Absinthe Seurat: why do you need labels?
[19:10] Malburns Writer: trade and barter is the foundation of commerce and fine
[19:10] Prokofy Neva: so we can conceptualize and have a discussion
[19:10] Courtroom Kidd: there can be no spirit of trust as is required for trade to flourish
[19:10] Prokofy Neva: you may need to go back to your sim!
[19:10] Prokofy Neva: there is always one's own sim!
[19:11] Malburns Writer: it trades culture as much as goods themselves
[19:11] Prokofy Neva: where one can do what one wants!
[19:11] Malburns Writer: capitalism and consumerism are dubious to put it mildly
[19:11] Malburns Writer: in my opinion that is
[19:11] Prokofy Neva: well you know the Pope actually bashes both communism and capitalism
[19:11] Prokofy Neva: what is the worst effect of capitalism in SL in your view?
[19:11] Absinthe Seurat: off to the races
[19:12] Kryss Wanweird: and also contraceptive methods
[19:12] BobDobbs Kidd: Capitalism is peace.
[19:12] Courtroom Kidd: capitalism creates more good for pppl then central planning
[19:12] Absinthe Seurat: now tell me this
[19:12] Prokofy Neva: I tend to agree, but people get very upset about capitalism, they get in a lather
[19:12] Prokofy Neva: they are in a fury
[19:12] Prokofy Neva: a religious wrath
[19:12] Prokofy Neva: it's the new fundamentalism
[19:12] Absinthe Seurat: what do you think the catholic church is based on
[19:12] Malburns Writer: i am not sure that capitalism as i was refering to it actually exists in SL
[19:12] Kryss Wanweird: ignorance
[19:12] Prokofy Neva: they will sit through bukkake, but God forbid that Anshe sell something for $10L? hellfire and damnation
[19:12] Tara Yeats: power and control, Absinthe
[19:12] Bryce Galbraith: SL is largely defined by capitalism it seems to me...
[19:13] Bryce Galbraith: there is very little that could be considered 'public'.
[19:13] Absinthe Seurat: think again
[19:13] Malburns Writer: we have commerce and corporations present here
[19:13] Prokofy Neva: well the entire server thing tho Bryce
[19:13] You: I understand your position on Anshe, and her place in the economy - I still dislike it for driving others out of business
[19:13] Prokofy Neva: that's the public federal land so to speak
[19:13] Absinthe Seurat: taxation and tithing and capitalism
[19:13] Bryce Galbraith: What is the entire server thing Prokofy?
[19:13] Prokofy Neva: can you point to someone she drove out of business yet Coco?
[19:13] Malburns Writer: but the is a degree of co-operation rather than too many attempt at monopolisation
[19:13] You: Just as I dislike corporations giving away cars for free.
[19:13] You: No, and there's good chance it will not.
[19:13] Prokofy Neva: it could be ignored?
[19:13] Prokofy Neva: did anybody buy that texturey stuff?
[19:14] Malburns Writer: the desire to monopolise is the worst effect of the extreme captitalism i meant
[19:14] Prokofy Neva: it's low prim but looks like a kind of cartoon, I'm afraid
[19:14] Prokofy Neva: Guni assures me it will get better
[19:14] Prokofy Neva: I actually see that stuff around more and mroe
[19:14] Prokofy Neva: sculpties have brought in this awful low prim dreck
[19:14] Frankie Antonioni: Trere is no such thing as dumping.
[19:14] You: I am pretty much ignoring it, except when the SLExchange started to give her her own category; and except insofar as she's taken advantage of her corporate status to have a first name with the word "Lindens" in it.
[19:14] Prokofy Neva: well Coco, if she is a big investor in Slex, why can't she have her corner?
[19:14] Prokofy Neva: like Martha Stewart at K-mart
[19:15] You: She can have the whole thing. they can re-name it "Anshe-Mart."
[19:15] Prokofy Neva: they should
[19:15] You: Or they can continue to serve us, but they can't have both.
[19:15] Prokofy Neva: brand recognition perhaps
[19:15] Tara Yeats: LOL Cocoa
[19:15] Prokofy Neva: well do you think that having a separate sector actually increases sales?
[19:15] Frankie Antonioni: In the US, goods are useually cheaper, because we have competition.
[19:15] Prokofy Neva: don't most people just use search?
[19:15] You: You mean the $10 category?
[19:15] Prokofy Neva: right
[19:15] You: yes
[19:15] Prokofy Neva: I have tenants with $10 stores
[19:15] Prokofy Neva: I guess I don't see it as undercutting
[19:15] You: I had the idea of it myself!
[19:15] Prokofy Neva: they offer stuff that is only worth $10
[19:16] Prokofy Neva: stuff that is $100 is better, and people spend it to get better
[19:16] You: But I think that is different from putting on a whole blitz
[19:16] Prokofy Neva: the $10 stuff is like all kitties and stuff
[19:16] Prokofy Neva: the $100 is more elaborate
[19:16] You: Yes, I don't consider the $10 stuff a huge threat
[19:16] You: But i also think part of the purpose is to drive people out of the low-end; she pretty much said so.
[19:16] Prokofy Neva: I see more people selling $10 stuff than people decorating their homes with it
[19:16] Prokofy Neva: well that's life in the big city
[19:16] You: Yes, I agree totally.
[19:16] Prokofy Neva: we could have the Sims Coco
[19:16] Prokofy Neva: when we were all happy
[19:16] Prokofy Neva: we were all equal
[19:16] You: Yes, I agree with that, too - life in the Big City.
[19:17] Prokofy Neva: we all had the same avatars with the same animations
[19:17] Prokofy Neva: that cost nothing
[19:17] Prokofy Neva: we had the same inventory
[19:17] You: Doesn't mean I have to like it, like the strategy, or like the motivation.
[19:17] Prokofy Neva: we could all be equal before the building tools, which were the same
[19:17] Absinthe Seurat: this discusssion is going nowhere
[19:17] You: Where did you want us to go, Absinthe?
[19:17] Prokofy Neva: The Sims Online was the golden age of the caliphate, Coco
[19:17] Malburns Writer: ha
[19:17] BobDobbs Kidd: Peace all.
[19:17] Absinthe Seurat: the format would be nice
[19:17] You: well, it's not a lecture
[19:18] Prokofy Neva: We were all equal, Malburns, and Jews and Muslims lived in peace and harmony
[19:18] You: and all the same height!
[19:18] Absinthe Seurat: think again
[19:18] You: now I get to be shorter
[19:18] Bryce Galbraith: It's been interesting...I have to head out now...talk to you al later.
[19:18] Absinthe Seurat: it has been a total lecture
[19:18] Absinthe Seurat: from prof
[19:18] You: i realize ymmv, absinthe
[19:18] Effulgent Brown: yeah absinthe
[19:18] Malburns Writer: no - has provoked discussion too
[19:18] You: I didn't participate much in the other stuff, as I don't know much about it
[19:18] Absinthe Seurat: and i didn't come here for a lecture
[19:18] Prokofy Neva: anyone is welcome to chime in
[19:18] Prokofy Neva: if they don't, I keep typing, whatever
[19:18] Absinthe Seurat: i am not a child
[19:18] Prokofy Neva: : )
[19:19] Prokofy Neva: well next time, be warned sweets
[19:19] Prokofy Neva: : )
[19:19] Prokofy Neva: or say something substantive?
[19:19] Prokofy Neva: that helps
[19:19] Absinthe Seurat: same to you sweets :)\
[19:19] Prokofy Neva: people who keep whining that someone else is talking but not saying anything are not very productive, eh?
[19:19] Kryss Wanweird: I say death to all whinners
[19:19] Prokofy Neva: btw you can hear Frogg Marlowe if you turn on the sound now he has a concert that we have streamed, and please tip him and Jaycatt directly
[19:19] Effulgent Brown: i wonder why they always say "whining"
[19:19] Prokofy Neva: or you can use this jar and I will give it to them
[19:20] Absinthe Seurat: people who have their own agendas are boring and not really interesting
[19:20] Prokofy Neva: you never said a truer word Absinthe
[19:20] You: GOOD LORD
[19:20] Prokofy Neva: still waiting for you to say something substantive tho
[19:20] Absinthe Seurat: ohh
[19:20] Tara Yeats: Absintrhe - *everyone* has an agenda
[19:20] Prokofy Neva: Lem who are your political grandfathers?
[19:20] Absinthe Seurat: i think i got a few things in
[19:20] Prokofy Neva: I wouldn't think Trotsky
[19:20] Prokofy Neva: Lenin?
[19:20] Absinthe Seurat: get real
[19:20] Prokofy Neva: Que Seurat, Seurat
[19:20] Absinthe Seurat: soon as i said anything
[19:21] You: yes well
[19:21] Absinthe Seurat: you threatened to eject me
[19:21] Lem Skall: sorry Prok I fell asleep
[19:21] Prokofy Neva: how about you Malburns who are your political grandfathers?
[19:21] Prokofy Neva: well who are your political grandfathers?
[19:21] Prokofy Neva: whose writings shape dyour worldviews
[19:21] Lem Skall: I actually always thought of you as Trotsky
[19:21] Prokofy Neva: so we can grasp what this kvetching
[19:21] Malburns Writer: tough call that
[19:21] Absinthe Seurat: i shaped my own
[19:21] Frankie Antonioni: Jefferson is mine.
[19:21] Prokofy Neva: Za Lvom Davydichim!
[19:21] You: what do you mean by, "political grandfather?" who influenced you?
[19:21] Effulgent Brown: Trotsky and Lenin dont scare me, so what, bring on Marx and everyone else is that supposed to stifle discussion or make someone ashamed
[19:21] Malburns Writer: i guess i have too Absinthe
[19:22] Prokofy Neva: No, I'm not a Trotskyite because I find the Russian revolution destructive
[19:22] Prokofy Neva: stifle? no it's a matter of trying to place where someone's rant comes from
[19:22] Malburns Writer: but i lean to the left generally more now older oddly
[19:22] Prokofy Neva: Lem is always nattering about people always being WRONG
[19:22] Absinthe Seurat: you loked the czars?
[19:22] Prokofy Neva: but he appears not to be a Calvinist
[19:22] Tara Yeats: Jefferson, Thoreau, more recently Ken Wilber
[19:22] Prokofy Neva: The czars appear to have been oppressive
[19:22] Lem Skall: not people, Prok, but YOU are wrong
[19:22] Absinthe Seurat: thought they were benevolent landowners?
[19:22] Prokofy Neva: oh ok Lem
[19:22] Prokofy Neva: glad we got that straight!
[19:23] Absinthe Seurat: in pretty outfits?
[19:23] Prokofy Neva: It's funny, Jefferson I'd include too
[19:23] Effulgent Brown: A person's "rant" comes from themselves you dont need to have a political grandparent
[19:23] Prokofy Neva: but if you said, "what" about Jefferson
[19:23] Prokofy Neva: factions are the oxygens of democracy?

[19:23] Absinthe Seurat: not by a long shot prof
[19:23] Prokofy Neva: I read a lot of Thoreau too
[19:23] Absinthe Seurat: you have nothing in common with jefferson
[19:23] Prokofy Neva: "beware of all enterprises that require new shoes"
[19:24] Malburns Writer: ha
[19:24] Prokofy Neva: oh Benjamin is trying to whisper that I must be a Randian
[19:24] Prokofy Neva: ugh, I don't like Rand
[19:24] Prokofy Neva: oppressive as all get out
[19:24] Tara Yeats: Ahh - another one: Mark Twain!
[19:24] Absinthe Seurat: who was, by the way, a slave owner and a separatist
[19:24] Effulgent Brown: hmm, a cut and paste lecture at that
[19:24] Absinthe Seurat: :)
[19:24] Prokofy Neva: rapacious capitalism and social Darwinism
[19:24] Absinthe Seurat: just so you know :)
[19:24] Prokofy Neva: I wonder what addle-brained leftoids poor Duranske imbibed with his cheerios
[19:24] Prokofy Neva: ugh
[19:25] Effulgent Brown: and Jefferson was basically someone who wanted to capitalize on the forced labor he had access to
[19:25] Effulgent Brown: wow great grandpa
[19:25] Absinthe Seurat: exactly
[19:25] Lem Skall: Prok, does your mental condition get worse with age?
[19:25] You: lem, i am wondering how you chose your name
[19:25] Prokofy Neva: does yours improve with age?
[19:25] You: I mean, did you pick it on purpose - to remind me of other words? Or was that accidental?
[19:25] Prokofy Neva: well he could have had "Numb Skall"
[19:25] Prokofy Neva: but that might have been taken?
[19:25] Absinthe Seurat: oh and now we all get personal?
[19:26] Effulgent Brown: the founding fathers of america looked to the west and dreamed of all the money they would get once they massacred all those pesky Native Americans
[19:26] You: no , I"M getting all personal
[19:26] You: I figured I could, after Lem's comment
[19:26] You: and I've been wondering
[19:26] Absinthe Seurat: ok
[19:26] Lem Skall: Coco, I picked it from my bookshelf: Stanislav Lem
[19:26] You: if he really did want it to remind people of numb skull
[19:26] Prokofy Neva: ohhhh there you go
[19:26] Prokofy Neva: like Solaris
[19:26] Absinthe Seurat: this was a discussion
[19:26] You: ok, i see you didnt
[19:26] You: i might get more personal in a minute, too
[19:26] Absinthe Seurat: soon as someone didn't just nod and say yes
[19:26] Lem Skall: not Solaris, I didn't like that one, Cyberiad
[19:26] Prokofy Neva: hahah go Coco!
[19:27] Prokofy Neva: I loved Solaris
[19:27] Prokofy Neva: it's like SL
[19:27] Absinthe Seurat: they are suddenly persona non grata
[19:27] Lem Skall: go ahead Coco
[19:27] Absinthe Seurat: amend your ad
[19:27] Prokofy Neva: in fact, Lem is a creature of the lagoon that swam up from my imagination
[19:27] Lem Skall: Coco, I am waiting
[19:27] Absinthe Seurat: why am i in the center of the floor?
[19:28] You: you weren't it, lem!
[19:28] You: i was done being personal with you
[19:28] Lem Skall: I must have missed it then
[19:29] You: well I'm not real harsh
[19:30] Malburns Writer: well folks - think i must go
[19:30] Malburns Writer: nearly 4am in the UK
[19:30] Effulgent Brown: please dont leave us
[19:30] Effulgent Brown: lol
[19:30] Malburns Writer: but i HAVE found discussion interesting
[19:30] Malburns Writer: not a lecture !!!
[19:31] Absinthe Seurat: lol
[19:31] Tara Yeats: agreed, Mal - polarization leads to interesting sparks
[19:31] Absinthe Seurat: no
[19:31] Prokofy Neva: ok Mal thanks for coming
[19:31] Absinthe Seurat: it was a rant :)
[19:31] Prokofy Neva: always enjoy seeing you and reading your tweets
[19:31] You: bye mal!
[19:31] Malburns Writer: great - see you next alert! lol
[19:31] Prokofy Neva: I have to go nuke a griefer brb
[19:31] Absinthe Seurat: i am sure you do
[19:32] Absinthe Seurat: save the metaverse
[19:32] Absinthe Seurat: well sorry i ruined everything
[19:33] Absinthe Seurat: i will not be talked down to :)
[19:33] Effulgent Brown: You didnt, if you had not said anything it would have been a total lecture
[19:33] Gabriela Freschi: oi
[19:33] Kryss Wanweird: oi
[19:33] Absinthe Seurat: you all should not be either
[19:33] Effulgent Brown: i was wondering where the syllabus was
[19:33] You: no it would not have
[19:33] You: i have been to lots of these, they are not total lectures
[19:33] You: prok talks a lot
[19:33] You: but everybody else can too
[19:33] Gabriela Freschi: kryss
[19:33] Absinthe Seurat: and really
[19:34] Kryss Wanweird: sim gabriela
[19:34] Absinthe Seurat: he wants to make his point
[19:34] Absinthe Seurat: and not listen to anyone
[19:34] Absinthe Seurat: but he is gone now
[19:34] Effulgent Brown: yes but when prok talks and says things that are really very strange what can you say
[19:34] You: he listens absinthe
[19:34] Effulgent Brown: i dunno
[19:34] Case Wrangler: I was only here for a little bit, so I didn't hear much.
[19:34] Absinthe Seurat: maybe we can have a real discussion
[19:34] Absinthe Seurat: up to y'all
[19:35] You: we just had a real discussion
[19:35] Effulgent Brown: yeah, i want to visit the sim, i felt it was unfair to talk about it without having been there
[19:35] Absinthe Seurat: if you say so :)
[19:35] Absinthe Seurat: and what did we learn?
[19:35] You: we learned you don't like Prok or his discussion meetings
[19:35] Absinthe Seurat: there are places he doesn't think should be here
[19:36] Strange Ranger: ... and you agree with Prok, Coco?
[19:36] Effulgent Brown: then the crusades were mostly a catholic endeavour so having a person who is catholic talk about this in this way was not objective
[19:36] Absinthe Seurat: and i disagreed
[19:36] You: no, i believe he was saying there are places that he thinks we should protest aginst, object to philosophically
[19:36] You: not ban them
[19:36] Gabriela Freschi: qual é o nome ilha que quando vc comeca a jogar ja entra direto ?
[19:36] You: about what, Strange?
[19:36] Absinthe Seurat: and i think he was wrtong
[19:36] Kryss Wanweird: depende, podem ser muitas
[19:36] Effulgent Brown: but to hold a discussion group about a sim without people having been there
[19:36] Effulgent Brown: that is a bit much
[19:37] Effulgent Brown: this wasnt a discussion it was to stir the pot for fear
[19:37] Gabriela Freschi: ai eu esqueci o nome mais só sei que começa om m
[19:37] You: well if you wanna know what bothers ME
[19:37] Gabriela Freschi: ah nem sei
[19:37] Gabriela Freschi: mdlr
[19:37] Gabriela Freschi: alguma coisa assim
[19:37] Absinthe Seurat: totally agree
[19:37] You: it's these textuers in this build , the ones that are stretched too much
[19:37] You: i keep wanting to fix them
[19:37] Kryss Wanweird: ah, a brasileira
[19:37] Gabriela Freschi: simsim
[19:37] Absinthe Seurat: witheff
[19:37] Kryss Wanweird: MLBR01, 02 e etc
[19:37] Gabriela Freschi: o nome é brasileira ?
[19:37] Kryss Wanweird: nao
[19:37] Effulgent Brown: Yes the textures do need tweaking
[19:38] Absinthe Seurat: so is the meeting adjourned?
[19:38] Gabriela Freschi: ta obrigada
[19:38] Kryss Wanweird: eh isso ai que te coloquei
[19:38] Effulgent Brown: yup
[19:38] Kryss Wanweird: por no search do MAP
[19:38] You: i imagine so, it has already run over by 38 minutes
[19:38] Absinthe Seurat: ok
[19:38] Gabriela Freschi: mlbr 01 ?
[19:38] Kryss Wanweird: MLBR
[19:38] Kryss Wanweird: aparecem todas
[19:38] Effulgent Brown: by the way, that burger is lovely
[19:38] Effulgent Brown: hehehe
[19:38] Gabriela Freschi: obrigadaa
[19:38] You: ty!
[19:38] You: i picked it up in a japanese sim
[19:38] Kryss Wanweird: tudo bem
[19:38] You: i'm fixing some textures on it, lol
[19:38] Effulgent Brown: lol
[19:38] Effulgent Brown: hehehehe
[19:38] You: just cause i cant stand them
[19:39] You: i'll probably never wear this cheeseburger again
[19:39] Gabriela Freschi: tchau
[19:39] Kryss Wanweird: como vc veio parar aqui?
[19:39] Gabriela Freschi: to indo
[19:39] Effulgent Brown: lol
[19:39] Kryss Wanweird: tchau
[19:39] Frankie Antonioni: Hey Ben.
[19:39] You: but im fixing it anyhow!
[19:39] Absinthe Seurat: tea/coffee/biscuits/
[19:39] Gabriela Freschi: não sei
[19:39] Absinthe Seurat: see ya all
[19:39] Gabriela Freschi: naõ
[19:39] Effulgent Brown: its better than a nice pair of shoes lol
[19:39] Gabriela Freschi: como eu consigo arrumar dinheiro ?
[19:39] Absinthe Seurat: and think for yourselves
[19:39] Absinthe Seurat: please
[19:39] Gabriela Freschi: para comprar roupa cabelos e essas coisa
[19:40] Kryss Wanweird: com cartao de credito ou deposito bancario
[19:40] Gabriela Freschi: no jogo
[19:40] Absinthe Seurat: parce ces't important
[19:40] Effulgent Brown: im trying to find the sim, i dont have it in my history
[19:40] Effulgent Brown: it got wiped
[19:40] Kryss Wanweird: eh dificil, vc vai se matar e nao consegue dinheiro
[19:40] Gabriela Freschi: deixa eu te fazer uma pergunta ?
[19:40] Kryss Wanweird: deixo
[19:41] Gabriela Freschi: quando eu compro cabelo ,tem uns de graça ...
[19:41] Gabriela Freschi: e sempre aparce demo
[19:41] Gabriela Freschi: tipo assim
[19:41] You: there - that looks more like foil
[19:42] Prokofy Neva: a tin foil hat?
[19:42] Kryss Wanweird: essas demos nao da pra usar, mas tem um monte de coisas de graca e que sao boas
[19:42] Prokofy Neva: I've always wantd to make one
[19:42] You: foil for the bottom of this cheeseburger!
[19:42] Kryss Wanweird: vai na ETD
[19:42] You: id make you one right now, but this place is no build
[19:42] Gabriela Freschi: etd ?
[19:42] Kryss Wanweird: la tem um legal que custa 1l
[19:42] Prokofy Neva: a tin foil hat?
[19:42] Kryss Wanweird: eh, poe no MAP
[19:42] You: yes
[19:42] Prokofy Neva: well I have it on no build due to griefing
[19:42] You: i can make stuff ya know!
[19:42] Gabriela Freschi: qual é o nome ?
[19:42] Prokofy Neva: what are you making the big cheese burger for
[19:42] Kryss Wanweird: ETD
[19:42] You: oh i didn't i picked it up at this japanese diner i was at earlier
[19:43] You: im just being silly with it
[19:43] Prokofy Neva: oh where?
[19:43] Kryss Wanweird: Pera, te dou umas coisas
[19:43] Gabriela Freschi: eu não tenho dinheiro nenhum
[19:43] Gabriela Freschi: hauhauhuaa
[19:43] Gabriela Freschi: ta ok
[19:43] You: shaggy took me to it, i don't know the place
[19:43] Kryss Wanweird: pera i
[19:43] Gabriela Freschi: muuito obrigada mesmo
[19:43] Prokofy Neva: it's not that one I showed you?
[19:43] Gabriela Freschi: o que ?
[19:44] You: i dont think so
[19:44] You: haha i like your group frankie
[19:44] You: i'll get the name of it from shaggy when he gets back on, if he remembers it
[19:44] Frankie Antonioni: Thanks.
[19:44] You: it's an idea that begged to be born!
[19:44] You: do you get many gigs?
[19:44] Frankie Antonioni: None yet.
[19:44] You: lol
[19:44] You: not surprising
[19:45] You: people who want to protest something are generally passionate enough to do it themselves, i know i am
[19:45] Frankie Antonioni: But some people don't have the time.
[19:46] Frankie Antonioni: For 10k you get 27 protesters.
[19:46] Frankie Antonioni: For 8 hrs.
[19:46] You: that is funny
[19:46] You: you have an interesting sense of humor
[19:46] Frankie Antonioni: What is that you got.
[19:47] 7736237 Paine: Prokofy can i have your blog url?
[19:47] You: oh its this big cheeseburger i picked up at a diner earlier
[19:47] You: just didn't take it off
[19:47] Prokofy Neva: http://secondthoughts.typepad.com and http://slrecord.typepad.com
[19:47] Frankie Antonioni: Is that a hamburger wrapper?
[19:48] 7736237 Paine: cool thanks sorry i think i missed some of the discussion..south africa's playing england in rugby at its 33 africa's way
[19:48] Gabriela Freschi: o que ?
[19:48] Prokofy Neva: Benjamin Noble: You refuse to debate me openly, you must be the tiniest little scared person inside that avatar. Prokofy Neva: BURSTS OUT LAUGHING Prokofy Neva: an eye for an eye champ Prokofy Neva: it's only just Prokofy Neva: banned from blog -- invites same Prokofy Neva: banned from land Prokofy Neva: I'm not here to give you a platform for your vanity projects Prokofy Neva: bye! Benjamin Noble: You're afraid, it's that simple. YOu know that saying "malpractice" about a lawyer who doesn't represnet anyone is defamation per se. You jsut banned me from your blog because you're afraid of debate with people who don't kiss up to you. Pretty small. Pathetic. Benjamin Noble: So you resort to a smear campaign, trolling around the internet. Is that what it's about though in your mind? That you can't post on my blog? Benjamin Noble: What' Benjamin Noble: And, I suspect a fair bit of Rand. Benjamin Noble: Nice wall... heh. Benjamin Noble: Saying it loud and clear, actually, except you don't like real debate.
[19:48] Prokofy Neva: I'm putting this into the public record
[19:49] Prokofy Neva: Benjamin Noble: You think that bothers me? You're the one talking to an empty room, frootloops. Prokofy Neva: No, I don't like debate with major-league assholes Prokofy Neva: you're the frootloops with your zealotry Benjamin Noble: Nobody knows why you're yelling about "Benjamin" Prokofy Neva: go back to your novel big guy' Benjamin Noble: Too busy, you know, doing a better job at what you do than you do. Benjamin Noble: But hey, what is this anyway -- it is just about not being allowed to post on VB? Benjamin Noble: I mean all the attacks, the personal crap, all of that? You just want to post on the blog? Benjamin Noble: So you will drop forum bombs, run meetings where you do not invite me and yet put me on the agenda, and post incessently about me on your blog. But you won't talk? Prokofy Neva: Gosh you're pathetic, you imagine that other people lead the same troubled insecure inner life thaty ou do Prokofy Neva: looking over their shoulder, imaging this or that motive of desperation Prokofy Neva: ROFL
[19:49] Gabriela Freschi: obrigada
[19:49] Prokofy Neva: Prokofy Neva: you are patethic Benjamin Noble: Are you responding to something? Benjamin Noble: I'm trying to talk to you... Prokofy Neva: there's nothing to talk about with you, you're a demagogue who bans people frmo your blog Prokofy Neva: end of story Benjamin Noble: Take a deep breath, and just talk for a second. Prokofy Neva: go back to writing that novel, champ Prokofy Neva: I dno't take Yogo lessons from wannabees Prokofy Neva: bye Benjamin Noble: You're the one person who can't post, at this moment, and that's what I've been trying to talk to you about, but you're just yelling again... Benjamin Noble: If this is about you wanting posting privilages, I'm happy to talk about that. Benjamin Noble: If you won't talk though, what can I do? Prokofy Neva: no, I don't play little emotional blackmail games hon Prokofy Neva: that's retarded Prokofy Neva: "I'll see what I can do about letting you back on my blog if you suck my cock" Prokofy Neva: bye! Benjamin Noble: Listen, just listen for a second.... all I'
[19:49] You: you live in north carolina?
[19:49] 7736237 Paine: sorry Gabriela, what language are you speaking?
[19:49] Prokofy Neva: all I'm asking you to do is post without calling me or other posters names. It's a professional blog, that covers a lot of territory. It's not as much a part of the SL blogosphere as you probably think, so I have to keep it at a certain level. If you do that, you can post. It's not that arduous - just no personal attacks. You can attack ideas all you want.
[19:49] Frankie Antonioni: Yeah.
[19:49] Prokofy Neva: Benjamin: read my lips:
[19:50] Prokofy Neva: I don't play, I don't do little controlling bullshit games
[19:50] Prokofy Neva: so kiss my ass hon
[19:50] Prokofy Neva: move on
[19:50] Prokofy Neva: you will be blogged
[19:50] You: read my IM prok
[19:50] Prokofy Neva: enjamin Noble: I know you've got me pegged as some kind of horrible person, but I have tried, and am still trying, to talk to you about whatever it is that is the problem. Consider it a victory - you've ground me down with weeks of attacks. I'm willing to talk. So... talk. What's do you want?
[19:51] Prokofy Neva: answer Benjamin somebody, he's pathetic
[19:52] Gabriela Freschi: vc pode ir la comigo ?
[19:52] Gabriela Freschi: comprar cabelo ?
[19:52] You: i say you should talk to jhim prok, but you know i would say that
[19:52] Prokofy Neva: naaah he's pathetic
[19:52] Prokofy Neva: people like that who are wimps with an iron won't only understand strength
[19:52] Prokofy Neva: you have to go for the jugular
[19:52] Prokofy Neva: I'm wondering why the Japanese have a cheeseburger
[19:53] Prokofy Neva: but Coco, you like to take in strays
[19:53] You: they had a diner
[19:53] Gabriela Freschi: pq não pode agora ? =/
[19:53] You: wait i think it was the japanese
[19:53] Prokofy Neva: with your Bide-A-Wee heart
[19:53] You: heh
[19:53] Prokofy Neva: you talk to Benjie, get him back on his novel lol
[19:53] Gabriela Freschi: ah sim
[19:53] Gabriela Freschi: qual é o nome mesmo ?
[19:54] Kryss Wanweird: Bea all well, I have another world to visit
[19:54] Prokofy Neva: world?
[19:54] Prokofy Neva: which one?
[19:55] Kryss Wanweird: Entropia, we are safaring there today, want to come?
[19:55] Prokofy Neva: you know I went there
[19:55] Prokofy Neva: and it was too hard to move around
[19:55] Kryss Wanweird: The grid safari, from metaversed
[19:55] Prokofy Neva: I could not walk
[19:55] Prokofy Neva: I'd only be in the way
[19:55] Prokofy Neva: until I can solve that issue
[19:55] Kryss Wanweird: Its great... Im fascinated
[19:55] Prokofy Neva: I had trouble getting it opened up and working
[19:55] Prokofy Neva: it had mentors in the WA who tried to hook me up to buy from them
[19:55] Prokofy Neva: that put me off
[19:55] Prokofy Neva: then I couldn't walk normally
[19:55] Kryss Wanweird: I did too, but asked for support and they aswered
[19:55] Prokofy Neva: I tried and tried
[19:56] Prokofy Neva: well I hate those smarmy mentor types
[19:56] Prokofy Neva: I'd rather just learn on my own
[19:56] Kryss Wanweird: Its like that, took me 3hs...
[19:56] Prokofy Neva: and get them out of my hair
[19:56] Prokofy Neva: well does it have flying?
[19:56] Kryss Wanweird: No
[19:56] Gabriela Freschi: como é que eu cosigo ficar com a saia completa
[19:56] Prokofy Neva: and is the wakling all a w-key thing?
[19:56] Kryss Wanweird: Look, Onder will be there tonight
[19:56] Kryss Wanweird: you can run and ride planes
[19:56] Kryss Wanweird: and teleport
[19:57] You: well its been fun prok, as usual
[19:57] Kryss Wanweird: Ill be happy to show you around antime, at least the movements
[19:57] Kryss Wanweird: Its really interesting
[19:57] Gabriela Freschi: kryss como eu faco pra ficar com a saia completa ?
[19:57] Kryss Wanweird: bota o shortinho do vestido que te dei junto
[19:57] Kryss Wanweird: e tira essa coisa branca
[19:58] Kryss Wanweird: Grid Safari group has been very active and fun
[19:58] Gabriela Freschi: ué não to achando
[19:58] Kryss Wanweird: procura por tiger
[19:59] Kryss Wanweird: tiger pants algo assim

Comments

[Lem Skall]

Prok, this is a public admission on your part that your banning of Duranske is not based on your "rules" but it is simply "eye for an eye".

[Laetizia Coronet]

Where is this sim? I'd like to go there and judge for myself what is going on.

I disapprove of ushering in intolerance through the back door. Like in real life, anyone in SL can create their own communities, as long as they abide by the law, ie. the ToS, which clearly rules out any form of intolerant behaviour. And yes, that includes Gor in my view.

Respect for other cultures is a good thing - I wouldn't dream of entering the Chebi mosque with my virtual shoes on - but my tolerance ends where other cultures propagate intolerance. The whole politically correct commuity wouldn't even consider allowing Afrikaners to set up an Apartheid sim. And there is really no difference between one kind of intolerance and the other.

[Lem Skall]

This [http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/09/13/al-andalus-caliphate-opens/] is what all the hullabaloo is about. BTW, IMO, it is not a "blessing" from Benjamin Duranske for the sims. Considering what his website is about, he had a moral obligation to publish the announcement of the sims. His comments seem to even question (although not attack like Prok) the purpose of the new sims.

[Prokofy Neva]

No, my banning of Duranske from *this blog* is based on rules. I have two rules, about no anonymous avatars, and about not inciting real or virtual harm. Duranske banned me from his blog because of my criticism of him, and threatened mw with a libel suit. That's inciting and causing harm; that earns him a ban from my blog.

In world, his banning of me from my blog, and also strutting around and doing things like getting threads closed with himself having the last word at metaversed.com For that, sure, he gets an eye for an eye (which is actually a very just system of just prosecution commensurate for the crime, not the barbarism for its time people imagine).

Why? Why call someone names and invoke eye for an eye when they ban me? Because they only understand shaming and force. Nothing else works on them. Persuasion, argumentation, reason -- that doesn't work on the tribal mind. And that's why you aren't required to be "more liberal than they". A forceful smackdown is all that works to restrain them.

I'm amazed that people keep asking "where is this sim" like parrots. The sim's name and URL were pasted into the chat. Go there and look, duh. Type the name into the search engine and look, duh. People always acts so helpless in SL.

As usual Laetizia has it all backwards, from her one-sided thinking. It is the Islamic caliphate, even from this "so-called liberal glorious period" that is ushering intolerance in the back door. The caliphate will force all factions/sects/versions of Islam to conform to one version; all other religions will be forced to bow to Islamic principles (defined by these people?) in the caliphate. That's intolerance, hon. The moral blindess to this is really absurd.

What this group will do is start up the drumbeat of "intolerance" in order to force people to accept it. They confuse "tolerance" with "acceptance" as Mal aptly said.

I am not required to accept Islamic principles or the caliphate and I don't. I am merely required to tolerate their existence within SL, that's all. And it's not merely about the TOS, which is often biased and arbitrarily interpreted by the Lindens. It's about basic principles of the rule of law in real life, where groups like this begin to infiltrate liberal systems and guilt-people into letting them get away with murder merely because of their discomfort level in saying "no," and their fear of facing down the kind of idiot critics I have to routinely face down in discussions like this, where on the way to illustrating the illiberalities of something like the caliphate, I have to hear a ration of shit about how I am supposedly illiberal just for criticizing them, and just for being very forceful about what's wrong with them.

I have to answer a hundred insults, slights, and gross attacks, and suffer the bigotry that always goes with announcing you are Catholic merely as an individual (I represent no organized Catholic institution or even school of thought).

I have to fend off half-baked idiots that you see in this meeting, beligerent, angry, and not very intelligent, merely saying "Why does it matter?" and "who cares?" just because *I* care.

Trying to resist stuff like this really takes strength of character, and isn't easy. But it has to be done.

[Prokofy Neva]

Of course it's a blessing. Two things happened. The group, wishing to infiltrate and gain legitimacy, is run by Manen, the fellow associated with Ashcroft in the awful Metaverse Republic who is trying by every means to find capers in SL to assert their sectarian ideologies. This is his latest form of pressure (as he brought to bear in Colonia Nova, now defunct, and in the Justice project, now defunct, and in the Metaverse Republic, which no doubt is soon to be defunct if they are now reduced to hawking Islamic principles).

And Duranske, being a good little "liberal," couldn't say no, even though he might have had his own comfort-level issues.

He also thought it would be a marvelously multi-culti "liberal" thing to do to gain street cred as a forward-looking "progressive" lawyer, civic activist, and man-about-town strutting forward with squared jaw to assert progressiveness in the face of "irate bloggers" like Prok.

So it's all about inability to say "no," the need to be vain and "progressive," and an actual weak-minded belief that this sort of stuff is actually a good thing for "dialogue". That's all.

The SLBA doesn't *have* to announce every governance project, or even review it, or even comment on it. It's a curious role they think they have, as a clearing house on governance projects they promote and then in a sense "own" at a meta level. No one needs them to do this. And it is indeed a blessing if they do not approach it critically.

He has no moral obligation whatsoever to advertise the illiberal project of another sim. That's the weak-mindedness of liberals who imagine they have to hurry to undermine the very liberalism upon which their liberal attitudes depend. His mild criticism AFTER he has conferred legitimacy on this project can't undo the legitimacy he already gave it -- which is what the sectarian Michel Manen was after in the first place. Mission accomplished, from his perspective, he can tolerate a little mild criticism, because now he can wave around the credentials he has achieved by getting the SLBA not only to announce the project, but "engage in dialogue" and "fend off extremists like Prok".

Of course, it's pretty easy to see through all these ruses.

The SLBA has also now taken an awful position on oppressing Chinese dissidents which I'll write about later today. My God, these people really need to be stopped. They are not required to take public positions and advance global platforms. They are supposed to be merely a professional society. They call othr groups "activist" and think they should take up the rights of Chinese dissidents which they view as "improper". But they themselves are activist in taking up in a proactive way the oppression of Chinese dissidents in a policy urging LL to comply with the Chinese.

The Lindens, who might in fact be relied on to ignore the Chinese government, will now be able to say, "the community wanted us to turn in Chinese dissidents; prominent lawyers who represent big corporations in SL whom we care about want us to comply with Chinese law, so what can we do, our hands our tied."

I hope the more intelligent readers of this blog can see the insidious and awful thing going on now in SL, and join me in trying to call attention to it, if not to stop it.

[Laetizia Coronet]

"As usual Laetizia has it all backwards"

You are hopeless. I wrote that in agreement with you and against the forming of a Caliphate sim.

If you can't read, try a nice picture blog.

[Prokofy Neva]

Yes, I realize you agree about that, but on the way to agreeing about that, you had to make a few more jabs, so I replied to them.

[Laetizia Coronet]

I jabbed at noone. I intentionally worded my reply such as to be non-offensive to either you or anyone else, save perhaps pro-Apartheid Afrikaners. And to hell with them.

Maybe you think Lem's comment is part of my reply. It is not.

[katykiwi Moonflower]

It is astonishing that Duranske has resorted to the same tactics used by griefers trying to crash your discussion meetings. Why would anyone insist upon being present where they are not wanted. Prok has every right to ban any person for any reason no matter what the motivation. I would advise Duranske to stop acting like a child if he wants to role play being a lawyer in SL.

It seems Prok's detractors are really quite obsessed. They cannot ignore Prok despite their complaints about how awful and terrible and wrong Prok is alleged to be. To every person posting a comment here knocking Prok, if it bothers you so much, why can't you walk away from the controversial, but always interesting, Prokofy Neva? It has to be because you cannot resist Prokofy Neva!

[Lem Skall]

To katykiwi, if our comments bother you so much, why can't you just walk away from them? Why don't you just walk away from griefers?

I consider Prok to be one of the most offensive and disruptive people in SL and I am not going to just walk away from it.

[Prokofy Neva]

It's only in the wacky world of Second Life, with nutty sectarians of the extreme left, like Lem, or right, like Intlibber and Ashcroft, that someone like me can seem "dangerous" for their liberal views.

[Lem Skall]

For the record, I consider myself a liberal leaning towards the conservative side and I have even voted that way (I would never vote left simply out of principle). As for you, Prok, you are not a liberal, you are a plain demagogue who is playing whatever tune suits your own interest or imagination.

[Amelia Abernathy]

Prok, this country needs more people that can think independently instead of being force-fed "tolerance" like it's pablum and thinking it's good. Keep it up.

Duranske, I know you're refreshing this page with every breath you take...why don't you finish your damn book and go back to work instead of playing virtual vapor law in SL? If there even is a book...if you're even an attorney...

[Prokofy Neva]

It's too bad that there are so many anklebiters in these conversations, bent on disrupting them and trying to "prevent me from being a demagogue" (rolls eyes) and not having the conversation.

BobDobbs Kidd asks: what are Judeo-Christian principles? I say they can mean different things to different people -- they are negative to some, and positive to others, for starters. I tried to summarize an incredibly complex topic by saying essentially they are about the dignity of the individual against the collective. and the rule of law/higher power.

He then vexes that if you can't define them, how can you invoke them? That seems silly -- of course you can invoke the broad principles of religious and civilizational traditions.

My God, nobody got exercised at Manen invoking "Islamic principles" that should shape the dialogue about governance on his sim. This troubled none of the earnest liberals in the discussion. But as I invoke "Judeo-Christian principles," I'm assailed with a million scientific problems -- they are undefinable, they can't be understood, they are bogus, whatever.

Of course, what Judeo-Christian principles do give you, is the ability to self-criticize. That's invaluable. And I suggest that's been the key to a lot of the successes of these Western values over the years. The ability to see oneself from a perspective outside the self and the tribe, to subject even what seem like demonstrable truths to scrutiny and questioning.

Bob Dobbs further then asks: how is separation of church and state attributable to J/C civilization?

His point, no doubt, is that if the J/C civilization gives you the Inquisition, the papal excesses and corrupition, the Crusades, why, what's so great about that? How can you ascribe the Enlightenment and scientific inquiry to the J/c past?

It seems so demonstrable to me that of course you can attribute the Enlightenment to the Judeo-Christian civilization, that I wonder what the problem is.

For one, people imagine that the Greek democracy concepts are situated outside of "the J/C civilization" -- but of course, they're incorporated into it as it comes down to us. They imagine that if the Enlightenment is a rebellion against the Church, that it therefore exists unalloyed with the J/C civilizational norms.

That seems silly, as if there could be some new norms shaping the ability of people to break from their past that spring out of nowhere.

This essay here
http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/hum_303/enlightenment.html

has a good summary of the philosophy of Thomas Aquinus, and how it relates to humanist ideas that come later, and scientific inquiry. The Church is not merely made up of corrupt popes and crusaders (and perhaps there was something worth crusading against at the time, this bears study).

It seems to me with this Caliphate experiment, the promoters wish to imply that there is some golden age not only for a more liberal Muslim thought, but a golden age period beyond the Renaissance or Enlightenment that bears no relationship to the Judeo-Christian heritage and therefore is "pure" and "not suspect" (but of course, that kind of biased take on the history of ideas only comes from back-dating latter-day rabid sectarianism).

Sorry, no sale here. Whatever goodness can be extracted from the golden age of Islam isn't sufficient in terms of sustaining the rights of the individual and the rule of law (if it were, we'd never see the negative features of the schools of thought later in history), and there's plenty of goodness to mine from the J/C heritage, mindful of its oppressive features and periods as well.

A system that can give you the tools and education to enable you to rebel against it seems to be doing something right, to me, in terms of keeping an open and free society.

[Desmond Shang]

I'm very interested in how this project turns out.

I had taken great pains to not include some of the social ills of Victorian times with Caledon, or at very least parody them (a 'comedic war' with another sim, exploring the 'mainland continent', that sort of thing).

However, I don't think the Al Andalus project is parody in the manner that Caledon is clearly parody.

However, I don't see it as being inherently evil either - if anything, I think it may turn out to be more educational than anything else. Time will tell.

I'd be very interested in hearing Michel Manen's responses to Prokofy's comments here.

[Lem Skall]

Prok, If you wanted to have an intelligent conversation on Judeo-Christian principles vs. Islamic principles then you should not have started with an argument on "Little Benjie" and "sectarian Michel". I normally wouldn't drag on like this when arguing with someone (call it ankle-biting if you will) but I am not done yet this time. After all, you are doing it all the time so now you'll feel too what it's like.

Why am I saying that Prok is a disruption in SL? Even when he's right about a subject, Prok is bad for the cause that he himself is fighting for. I too have been in disagreement with a lot of the projects that Michel and Ashcroft have been pushing, although I don't find them as dangerous as Prok and I don't find it necessary to attack them anytime, anyhow and anywhere and also attack anyone who enables those projects by association. I still haven't seen enough from the caliphate project to form any opinion yet and I doubt that there will ever be anything too dangerous or too offensive about it that I won't be able to tolerate (even if I will still disagree with it). But it will be difficult from now on to make any argument against the caliphate project without making it sound like a "crazy Prok argument".

Prok throws in every dirty weapon he can think of, irrational arguments, pure verbiage, circular logic, personal attacks, offensive language, exaggerations, unsupported speculations, the list can go on and on. The results are almost always negative except for drawing attention to himself and traffic to his blogs. Take the office hours where he is a disruption in building a reasonable, civilized dialogue with the Lindens, only to support HIS "personal vanity project" of "asking the hard questions" (that don't get answered anyway) and then to publish the logs of the discussions showing what a "great service" he renders to the SL community. Note to the Lindens: publish the discussions from the office hours, they should be open anyway and no one like Prok should get credit for that instead.

Interesting? Yes, in a sensationalist, shocking, tabloid way. But informative? No, too bad if you never heard about Michel Manen, Ashcroft Burnham, Benjamin Noble and Jessica Holyoke outside of Prok's blogs, but you should get your information elsewhere and unbiased.

[Prokofy Neva]

Lem, you're really hysterical -- do you ever have any points of your own to put forth? Or do you merely rabidly react to what I've said? I think it's funny that just because you don't like what I say, you lamely attempt to mischaracterize it as "hate" or "circular reasoning" or whatever. You'd be hard-put to prove that convincingly.

I'm increasingly finding you quite a bore to try to talk to. I have yet to see you make a substantive point.

[Carl Metropolitan]

Oh good. SL finally has a place for people who found Gor insufficiently misogynistic and repressive.

[Chav Paderborn]

As an "evangelical" atheist I'm not really that keen on any religion moving in and trying to apply its laws to us in virtual terms. I'm kind of torn on this one pending more info. One the one hand it's not really going to help bring about violent revolution in the real world, and on the other there's a definite need to worry about what ideas float around virtual worlds just as in the real world. Is it going to prop up anti-feminist, anti-infidel beliefs? Is it going to convert anyone to a form of Islam that isn't practiced in the modern world outside of a few dictatorships?

[Lem Skall]

"do you ever have any points of your own to put forth? Or do you merely rabidly react to what I've said?"

All of YOUR blogs are mere rabid reactions to others. Pardon me for being a bore and stop talking to me anytime you want.

[Prokofy Neva]

Well, that's just my point, Chav and Carl. Any one bent on finding more recruits for bin Laden and his franchises wouldn't be deterred from coming to Second Life, if someone told them hey, no, that's a free-wheeling Western society with women as equals and people openly having sex of all kinds.

No, instead, they'd tell them it was a happy hunting ground as the people themselves had already pre-trained for Islamicist oppression by having Gor and BDSM and subject women to even worse oppression than likely organized Islam does.

[Ashcroft Burhham]

"It's only in the wacky world of Second Life, with nutty sectarians of the extreme left, like Lem, or right, like Intlibber and Ashcroft, that someone like me can seem "dangerous" for their liberal views."

Wasn't it only recently that you were claiming that I was a socialist?

"Duranske banned me from his blog because of my criticism of him, and threatened mw with a libel suit. That's inciting and causing harm; that earns him a ban from my blog."

A wholly justified defamation action against you would not be inciting or causing harm: it would be procuring justice.

[Prokofy Neva]

As the Nazis illustrated, socialism and extreme conservativism can be combined in "national socialism" and wind up being on the extreme right.

A libel suit against me incurs damage and harm, and is fruitless, because there is no basis for a libel suit whatsoever.

The idea that blowhards like Ashcroft and Duranske can keep threatening libel and impugning that this would be "justice", and can keep putting a chill over the SL blogosphere in general, and against criticism of themselves in particular, is one of the scarier aspects of Second Life.

[Prokofy Neva]

Oh, I see "Eyu Rang" is a real name in the list, so to speak but absolutely no information is contained on this account, so it might as well say "anonymous". The posts are nasty and gratuitously malicious, and I don't see that I need to provide a platform for an alt or an anonymous PN harasser or whatever. Go start your own blog and hate on that to your heart's content.

[Ashcroft Burhham]

"As the Nazis illustrated, socialism and extreme conservativism can be combined in "national socialism" and wind up being on the extreme right."

So now I'm a Nazi?

"A libel suit against me incurs damage and harm, and is fruitless, because there is no basis for a libel suit whatsoever.

The idea that blowhards like Ashcroft and Duranske can keep threatening libel and impugning that this would be "justice", and can keep putting a chill over the SL blogosphere in general, and against criticism of themselves in particular, is one of the scarier aspects of Second Life."

You think that it's scary that people believe that you, too, are bound by the rule of law, even in relation to defamation?

What, other than precisely your sort of writings, is the law of defamation for, do you think?