Don't Buy Classifieds or Search Ads This Week!

There are two rational things to do with the development of this powerful Sheep grab of the SEARCH, outlined in my post below: 1) buy an ad on OnRez, if you still can and if all you sell is fashion and not real estate (no categories for that) and you don't mind all your proprietary information about your business being scraped up; or 2) stop paying for SEARCH PLACES ads at $30 a week, and do not order any CLASSIFIEDS ads for $50 or more this week! I'd suggest no. 2 even if you get no. 1!

Stop TODAY, because any ad you buy after today, hoping to show October 24th or later, will be BURIED. That is, maybe the 50,000 concommitant log-ons may see it if they go on using the old Linden-provided browser, but on October 24th, tens of thousands -- maybe a million! -- new customers are expected to come into Second Life via the CSI:NY portal web page managed by the Sheep, and all those people will be handed a new, simplified browser which features the Sheep's shopping site ONREZ naturally and Sheep properties, and where the SEARCH, supposedly hooked up to the main LL search, will be buried -- there won't be tabs that say CLASSIFIED or SEARCH PLACES. The experience will be a lot like going to the LL web page now with only one box, where you turn up junk, or going to amazon.com but not filtering for "books" or "electronics". Hey, if it is different than this, let's see it, but we are looking at the screenshot of the browser, hearing reports from those who have seen the browser, and also seeing Giff Constable's very belligerent responses below, basically saying he's under no obligation to provide the paid-for Classifieds and Search Places search for another company -- even when that "other company" has just *licensed him a browser* and is the platform on which he is making his millions.

The other thing you have to grasp about the Sheep browser is that from what I gather - and hey, correct me if I'm wrong -- every keystroke you make with that browser is captured by the Sheep. At the very least, the database calls to the SEARCH that you make through this browser -- the so-called "attention economy" -- will go into their proprietary coffers. And unlike the Lindens, who capture all this search data themselves, obviously when you use their browser, we are unlikely to get anything back in the way of an economics statistic page as we do from the Lindens -- who actually have the most transparent economy, inworld and out, of any virtual world or game, for all the bitching about their numbers. Just try asking There.com for their concommitant log-ons, as I did at VW07 -- you won't get the number, it's a company secret.

I've been talking to the Lindens about this Sheep browser, and I get a better sense now of how they see it.

To them, it's just inevitable that they'll pick some special companies that will get a better deal while the open-source transition is being made, and then eventually -- or not -- others will come along. Not their problem!

Look for them to follow *exactly* this sordid pre-picking and special licensing approach for "host your own" sim hook-ups when they supposedly "open-source" the server code.

Open Source=Closed Society. The Sheep's grab of the search via their customized browser made possible by open source is EXACTLY the proof of my thesis. When you look for any eyeballs to see you buried $50,000 Classified ad next week, maybe you will grasp my meaning.

As we have long guessed, the Lindens don't really have any deep inherent love for the inworld economy. The inworld economy does not butter their bread. It's a sink, a cost-center, a labour intensive thing that sucks up staff time and resources to maintain. Whatever they get out of Linden dollar sales, or classifieds ads, just doesn't really represent any significant revenue stream for them, and they are too impatient to ensure that it ever will.

Take a look at even the improved numbers for the sale of Linden dollars: up to $593,501 from $163,239. Even Eloise is now grasping that hey, this depresses wages! I've been saying this for two years lol. She, like John Z of LL at VW07 reasons, that this is a good thing as it "stabilizes" the economy. It's also a doom marker for inflation and eventually dollarization. People see this retarded depressed wage that never strengthens and can never truly reflect the value of their labour, and the value people place on manufactured products, and they go outside the system. Builders begin to take cash in PayPal and rental agents begin to take cash in PayPal, not Lindens.

We have a remittance economy, like Pakistan.

But $593,501 a month just isn't what it seems -- think of the cost of the payroll of the staff needed to maintain the LindEx, I'll bet it would have to be one, if not two entire Lindens -- maybe three, when you factor in the tremendous vulnerability to fraud -- and of course that figure has to cover the losses from chargeback fraud and other kinds of losses. So that figure begins to so whittle away, as to almost not be worth it, unless the Lindens follow their only model: more and more customers, which then only create more and more stress on the system that can't keep up.

I'd have to go research what they make on classifieds -- it isn't much. Search is a sink of dollars, not a money-maker. Taken together, all of this just isn't worth as much to them as the prospect of 1 million TV viewers who might buy $9.95 premium subscriptions or $1695 islands for which they'll pay $295 tier. That's where they make more income, land fees. And even those TV-watcher buying islands is a way-station -- what they really want is for companies like CBS and the Sheep to assume the care and feeding of all those people.

And even those land fees are not so compelling as not to look at the next road around the curve: the hook-up fees, or licensing fees that they can charge to meta-users of their grid services, as distinct from their world services. The grid is above the world, with larger purchases of islands.

Why chase 10,000 people who might by 297 islands, when you can chase 2-3 big companies who will buy 500 islands a piece in one whack and charge them a hook-up fee?

The Lindens also live in the future, like any company planning for the future, and a future as dramatic and tumultous (at least for us) as open source. They already talk about it as if it *is* open sourced -- and in fact the viewer already is. So they don't mind that one company came along and screams -- if they provide free speech, they run the risk that one big company like the Sheep comes along and uses that freedom of the open-source viewer to scream with a million TV customers on one viewer.

It's similar to the problem of how they opened up the land auction, and only one company, Anshe Chung, had the foresight to come in and buy lots of it -- others were timid, lacking resources or vision. It took awhile for competition to emerge -- more than a year, as it wasn't until June 2005, with the $1000 or higher bids, that a medium size class of land barons emerged to compete significantly with Anshe, especially by buying the sims basically only for $1000 (until the price was raised to $1250 opening bid this year).

But...this browser issue is different. Only one company is *licensed* to scream. No others are *licensed* -- they don't get to have a special team of Lindens to back up their campaign for a TV show, and they don't get a special round-robin DNS order that will take all the new sign-ups and distribute them over customized sims instead of the world at large on the regular Orientation Islands.

Could another company get this? I always ask the Lindens why they don't open up a corporate-level account, that has a suite of tools and offerings that are listed and therefore become open to all -- no one has to have a special meeting with Glen Linden, they just buy the package. The package includes 100 islands, and a Linden cell number to put on the speed dial or whatever. There's nothing wrong with this, it's how you do it fairly. Right now, it depends on old connections and special dispensations. (and no, the grid service isn't a corporate account, because it isn't an account page you go to, click on, and buy, the way you buy and island).

No doubt if BBC or some other world-class TV company wanted to buy the browser, the Lindens' services, the DNS routing, the works, they could. That might then create some competition and choice beyond the Sheep's ONREZ where Jennyfur comes up first because FlipperPAY scripted her to come up first ROFL.

But it means these giants clashing and fighting for the attention economy by being brutish and thuggish. Why can't Linden Lab realize that the SEARCH is a public trust, and not allow the Googlization of the Metaverse to occur so prematurely and so thuggishly? After all, Google emerged over time, with other search engines competing -- many people found Alta Vista able to turn up much more of the intellectually superior results than Google, and it was sad to see it go. Today, you at least have Yahoo and Yahoo Answers to compete with Google.

Comments

[Tenshi Vielle]

Ugh. Prok. Go take your medicine and lay down. :)

[anon ymous]

Another thing you failed to mention about the new viewer -- hey correct me if I'm wrong -- is that each time you start it up, the sheep murder a kitten.

[Giff]

Prok,
I said that we weren't under obligation to include Linden Lab's search, not that we were going to exclude it. I said *explicitly* that we *were* going to INCLUDE it.

Any standard SL classifieds users reading here, have no fear: your classifieds will be accessible to users of our viewer.

What is not in question is whether we provide Linden Lab's search and classifieds, but whether we include our own search service as well. I am not sure that our search is ready, and am meeting with the team now to make that call.

I do not view Search as a public trust, obviously. Search is a highly difficult and important challenge that requires continual innovation. It is in everybody's interest that there be competition because through competition you see innovation. Turning search into some state-run (assuming SL had a state) pit of technical stagnation... hold on, aren't you always railing *against* the models of the soviet union?

Choice is good. Choice empowers consumers.

I do not believe we should sit back and wait for Linden Lab, much as I love the service they have created, to solve all of our problems.

And keystroke capturing -- what?! Murdering kittens indeed. We do not keystroke capture.

[Prokofy Neva]

Giff,

HOW will the classifieds be viewable? WHERE? There is no tab CLASSIFIEDS on your browser.

It will be in a giant grab-bag that looks like one single giant SEARCH box that has to fetch up People, Places, Events -- and Classifieds. Hello? so WHERE???

When you say "accessible" that is NOT the same thing as VISIBLE, Forseti, and you KNOW that.

If there is one giant box into which one types "murdered kitties," trust me, the classified ad with the murdered kitty for $50,000 may not ever show up in the 100 returns!

Your failure to grasp that SEARCH is a public trust will be your doom. Even Google gets that, as awful as they are.

Not capturing key strokes? So...where is all that search data going? When they type into the search box? Where? You are saying that no information off this browser interfacing with SL will be going into your hands at all? I find that impossible to believe.

Competition is good, but that's not what's going on here. What's going on here is Linden Lab licensing one company -- yours -- to obliterate the usual view of the world with an interface that turns SEARCH into kasha. It is not visible, even if technically "accessible".

There'd be no need to sit back and wait for Linden Lab if companies like yours cared more about the public trust. As bad as they are, the Lindens have a workable search that transparently provides information about the top visited sites -- and no, I don't mean the gamed and camped ones (filled up with your pal libsl's camp bots).

I mean everything else in search, which has merited metrics below the first few gamed ones. That's really important information, you are covering it up, and you are grabbing it so that only you can find the advertising hot spots.

I understand your motivation; I don't understand you lack of conscience or shame about this.

[Maklin Deckard]

"I do not view Search as a public trust, obviously. Search is a highly difficult and important challenge that requires continual innovation. It is in everybody's interest that there be competition because through competition you see innovation." - Giff

If it were anyone else but the Electric Creeps, er Sheep, I'd consider this somewhat valid a viewpoint. However, you've already shown complete disregard for player opinion and a self-serving motivation with that accursed 'Grid Shepherd' datascraping and using opt-out instead of opt-in.

I for one, trust nothing you say or do after that, and if I hear anyone mention they are using your browser, I sure as hell am pointing them to the REAL download and pointing out your past data-scraping behavior and odious opt-out requirements.

[Giff]

I am all for providing value and services to the community. What I do not support is your "everyone adhere to prokofian law" view of the world.

You do realize that you are making all these statements about what you can and cannot do when you haven't even seen it, right?

Maklin, I am sorry you feel that way - truly. There are those who feel the same way about Google and the other search engines for spidering their public websites. Likewise, our search engine only went onto publicly accessible (and Grid Shepherd accessible) land.

I have a very high regard for player opinion, and the vast majority of opinions when we released our search welcomed the alternative to LL's search.

I would probably agree with you more Maklin, if Linden Lab's goal was not to create a platform and a 3D web. In that case I do not see why the ethical rules should not be similar. I am trying to listen and keep an open mind on the topic however, so value your input.

[Prokofy Neva]

Giff,

I've seen the screenshot on Hamlet's blog.

I've heard the reports.

For the life of me, I don't see how something that so affects the public has to be kept secret in 7 wraps of NDA before launch day anyway, as it really does not affect the IP of the product. It's just a browser, Giff. What, you fear input from the community and wouldn't dare to adjust and redesign it? Is this what we have to look forward to from our new fleecing overlords?!

And any browser that shows only one big SEARCH box sucking in all categories of search like CLASSIFIEDS, PEOPLE, etc. is a huge concern because its returns will be incoherent, driving people to your SHOPPING.

I don't mind if you have SHOPPING, but without the tabs that are the basic public utility of the world like SEARCH that then creates an interface with PLACES, etc. I really have to be concerned about visibility. It sounds as if you are saying it is *accessible* but not VISIBLE and that you feel absolutely no obligation to make it VISIBLE.

I also share Maklin's concerns, which I've been articulating since April. We don't live inside a Google page with its spiders. We do live inside Second Life, where we are immersed and interact and have businesses, the feeling and the reality really is different.

A grid platform for meta use, and a 3-D web should not be about stepping on a world that it has originally created, a world whose inhabitants pay for 80 percent of their revenue with tier, *living and working* in that world. That's the business model. Changing it should be mindful of some transition that is fair to those people who helped make up 80 percent of its bottom line. Stepping on and screwing over those people should not be an option. You shouldn't make all the dam-builders fall into the wet concrete below to shore it up.

The very thing that makes the meta services of the platform even attractive is the presence of people in a world on that platform.

Sure, you can be like Ceaucescu and evict everyone from the quaint old city buildings, jail any dissenters, raze the buildings, put up a huge ugly white presidential palace monstrosity, and move in all your cronies and relatives. Then you may be put up against the wall and shot down the road. Treating people like this just isn't right.

[Prokofy Neva]

>our search engine only went onto publicly accessible (and Grid Shepherd accessible) land.

We've been over this a million times. Banning Grid Shepherd from a single parcel would not necessarily prevent him from scanning in a 96 m2 radius.

[sean percival]

Waiting for next the post to claim the browser is powered on the blood of babies.

Really now, huff and puff all you want about classified but if they are missing on the onrez browser its no lose to me and many others. These listings are polluted by many of the users you love to hate. Where or where will I find those great freebie locations and other scammy offerings?

Thank you ESC for stepping up to a big challenge. Be the Google of the Metaverse please, at this point we need it. Search is also heavily polluted and needs outside attention. Users with quality locations and real money invested will glady step up to pay for sponsored inclusion. Also think about including social tools like voting. This way those who dont pay to play but still have quality offerings can rise to the top too.

Prok stop trying to protect the starving children of the metaverse. They have a choice just like you, dont like the new viewer then dont use it.

[Prokofy Neva]

Sean, like Veronique, you are too stupid, and too convulsed in your malicious troll mode, to get that this isn't Google.

Like I just wrote: imagine that a company could go to Google, and say "I will bring you 20,000 new searchers, but I want you to license to me a viewer based on your open source code that enables me to put a skin over your box, so that your box will not have tabs on it (Amazon would be a better analogy with its pull down menu and tabs). And you must sell me and deliver to me the third spot or the fifth spot always in the search returns."

THAT is what is happening. It is NOT Google when one company grabs it, with no notion of the public trust.

Does Google just sell off the top return or fifth return spot? Of course not. You might concoct some argumentation that makes some convoluted point that these spots are "sold" in some complex way.

But they aren't "for sale" as such the way a Linden-licensed viewer is licensed and for sale for someone to come in and do this in SL. This should be obvious.

Search is not polluted as much as everyone thinks. Try living a week without it and you'll get it. Search's top slots in SL are gamed. The top classifieds are purchased outright (awful system, they couldn't think of anything better because of the tiny bit of user panel available to do this in).

But the next rungs down are genuine, and have real metrics. And that's what is great about SL -- search plus traffic, showing real usage.

And it is that info that the Sheep hope to grab to sell ad space.

Buying sponsored spots is NOT how the Internet works, duh.

The Yellow Pages in part work that way due to the interface. But it still has a LIST in which all businesses are located.

What we are seeing here is a steerage to one company's picks and properties. And that's wrong.

[Veronique Kaminski]

"..No, by publishing your choices you are PROMOTING THEM DUH and that is an ENDORSEMENT. You then tell them to vote, and the memes remain in their mind.
No, I assume that if I tell them to vote, I don’t have to tell them how I voted to sway them, and that IS the assumption that they are intelligent enough to vote..."

Remind me.. whose words were this again???
http://www.vintfalken.com/stop-complaining-tell-them-what-you-want/#comment-9903

OK... I am retarded. It isnt about voting or a survey here.. but arent you doing here exactly what you reproach Vint Falken, Prokofy?
Telling your readers WHAT to do, instead of pointing at a problem, critize and let your intelligent public make up their mind themselves??

Can I use the word "hypocrite" here? The pot and the kettle..?

[Veronique Kaminski]

"..and hey, correct me if I'm wrong .."

now that IS hilarious...

people are doing that all the time Prokofy.. with proof, examples, references, precedents,.. you name it.
You are just to blind, or stubborn, to see that things that dont originate from yourself can be facts or the truth too..

Damn, since I suppose you didnt give birth to yourself, do you even accept the fact that you exist??

[Prokofy Neva]

Veronique, again, your desire to play gotcha and hunt-for-the-hypocrite is severely blinding you to facts and logic.

Vint Falken is trying to get people to skew a publicly available survey, trying to plant in them her opinions about what the vote should be. And btw, her ideas are wrong, as advocating against having trade fairs in Second Life is preposterous, as they happen on sims where you don't have to go if you don't wish.

My telling people not to buy classifieds is a perfectly normal boycott compaign, of the type held since the first boycott of Boycott. And frankly, much needed in this world where companies can skew things. I'm telling people not to waste their money buying an ad that nobody can see, and send a message to the Lindens that if they license viewers like this, they themselves will pay. That's all perfectly fine. That's not skewing the outcome of a sociological survey, the two exercises are not related.

Again, I realize these distinctions may fly right over your head.

[Maklin Deckard]

"A grid platform for meta use, and a 3-D web should not be about stepping on a world that it has originally created, a world whose inhabitants pay for 80 percent of their revenue with tier, *living and working* in that world. That's the business model. Changing it should be mindful of some transition that is fair to those people who helped make up 80 percent of its bottom line. Stepping on and screwing over those people should not be an option." - Prokofy

This is what Giff just flat out doesn't get...or refuses to acknowledge due to his personal greed/sellout to the corps.

SL is not, regardless what fevered dreams King Phil has, a 3D web. They sell it as a world, as a second life. It is not a website. I have no issue with google spidering websites....I do not have a house, items I've made, items I have been given by friends on a webpage. HOWEVER I do have these things in SL...why? Because LL sold it to us as a virtual world, not a 3D platform for Giff and others to greedily plunder info for their own personal gain.

I have no real issues with making money, HOWEVER, I do have major issues with the MANNER the Sheep are using to that end -- their utter lack of ethics / duplicitous comparison of my ingame HOUSE and possessions with crap I would shovel onto a website.

Giff will never get it, Prok, as long as there are corps shovelling cash at the Sheep to do their dirty work. He and his kind will step on the players AND the virtual world in a heartbeat...all the while mouthing PR about listening to the players.

[Giff]

Prok,
The only reason why we don't have a wider feedback pool is very pragmatic -- we don't have time. The time crunch on this development project has been intense and we're barely getting in the 1.0 stuff we wanted. You can give feedback (and will, no doubt) once it is out. Our viewer will evolve over time.

I think you will find that most of your concerns (as noted in robin linden's office hours) will be unfounded. I also don't think anyone can snap their fingers and just consume the majority market share of the viewer - although I would be happy to be proven wrong there.

I'm not going to continue arguing with your accusations when you can see the facts for yourself in a week.

And Maklin, you clearly think ill of me. I won't return the favor -- I just think we have a different vision and interpretation of what SL is and could be. You're not evil, and neither am I.

[Prokofy Neva]

Thanks for confirming that you'd like to snap your fingers and consume the majority market share for the viewer, Giff. That was helpful!

[Cocoanut Koala]

Um, I don't know about that "vast majority of opinions" there, Forseti.

And Sean, what do you mean, "step up to pay for sponsored inclusion?"

Prok - sell ad space? Buying sponsored spots?

Do you guys mean that the Sheep search will be this huge mish-mash with no categories that you can only be visible on if you pay for a top spot?

coco

P.S. You know what, the absolute worst thing in the world that can happen to an SL business is getting hidden.

For a while there, LL changed the search default to where if you were on mature land, the user wouldn't see your place unless he thought to check on the mature.

I was effectively hidden, even though my cottages are wholesome as apple pie. My sales went down, and I saw no reason to continue.

Never has anything made me see no reason to continue but that! I IM'd Robin in a panic, saying I was going to have to sell off.

In a couple of days, I started selling off, and I IM'd Robin, saying, this is it, I'm selling off. There's no use continuing on.

She IM'd me back and said hold on, they WOULD fix this. So I did (I'd only sold off two parcels at that point.) Sure enough, in about a week, they did fix it, so that my non-mature content would still show up in the default search, and my sales went back up to normal.

If someone messes with the supposedly "broken" search, believe me, the results are instantaneous in terms of sales. Search drives sales. Muck up the search in certain ways, and you won't have any.

No sales = no point in being in SL for many of us, including me.

[Maklin Deckard]

"And Maklin, you clearly think ill of me. I won't return the favor -- I just think we have a different vision and interpretation of what SL is and could be. You're not evil, and neither am I." - Giff

Not you personally, but of the way you make your money and the company you keep. I am old enough to have grown tired of being lied to by corporations and their mouthpieces, being told things are good for me when in reality the only beneficiaries are the PR firm / corporations bottom lines.

Consider it a lack of trust for what you do and your customers, rather than a personal dislike for you as an individual. You may be a great guy, you are just doing a job that ethically I could not do.

As a metaversal facilitator/pr firm rep, you start with a HUGE credibility gap, and your marketspeak/PR-ese comparison of our personal homes and items in a virtual world with a common website was just the kind of thing I expected.

You told me WHY you can do it (effectively, becase we can), not why it is good for society or why you SHOULD be doing it, and in the process tried to dismiss concerns by comparing them to the flat-earthers who fear web spiders.

Drop the PR...tell me WHY the sheepbot/sheep search/crippled client/influx of clueless newbs straining already strained servers is good for ME, for other players, for the virtual world. Way it stands, it looks good for you and your corporate masters, but I and other tier-paying players get to take the hit for your profits.

Give me reasons not to object, rather than canned pr-flak dismissals of concerns and false comparisons.

[Prokofy Neva]

Maklin, I'm glad you're providing some informed comments here, it's refreshing to me, because I'm always having to be identified with some far-out tinfoil FUD point of view about these things, but in fact, I feel I'm outlining a very common sense and mainstream position.

I think you never spoke a truer word about tier-payers having to take a hit for the profits not only of Linden Lab, but the Sheep. And the question is whether or not this will get so bad, that these tier-payers walk -- and when they reach that point, whether it will matter whatsoever, because by that time, LL will have their "Grid-level services" and not have to think about the old world in inworld businesses who they are actively trying to stamp out now.

The question is whether "progress" dictates that in fact we all have to become roadkill on the Metaversal highway. Giff used to talk a good game about how these big projects of his (Starwood or whatever) would be good for inworld business if they bought in more customers that would in general buy in the economy. Except...hmm...you had an increase in outworld businesses being specially licensed, and all that led to was a slump in the economy.

When websites tied to TV shows get 50 percent more log-ons and burn out servers, they merely burn out servers. So those tekkies may have to take down some crossover/tie-in website for a day. So they may have to lay on some more servers or queue on log-ins. People are merely going to a web site to click on the picture of their favourite actress and watch some video or play with some interactive flash. No harm done if that all burns.

Not so a virtual world with people in it trying to socialize and run businesses. If they are paralyzed, they get angry; they don't come back.

[Slider Zamboni]

Maklin: a virtual world is, BY DEFINITION, a 3-D platform. Sheesh.

[Maklin Deckard]

"Maklin, I'm glad you're providing some informed comments here, it's refreshing to me, because I'm always having to be identified with some far-out tinfoil FUD point of view about these things, but in fact, I feel I'm outlining a very common sense and mainstream position." - Prokofy

The people usually posting here in your blog (Giff, some of the 'name' business owners, etc) see themselves as the 'elite' of the game...many of the rabid fans of the sheep envision themselves someday as sheep-like beings.

Ingame, its a whole 'nother ballgame. I informed most the folks on my friends lists...people who are strictly 'plebs' in the eyes of Giff and the platformistas, too small-time to be noticed by the movers and shakers wanting to turn the virutal world into the next 3D web...The responses varied from 'WTF? LL Screws us again for the corporations' to a milder 'Oh great, more nOObs and more lag'. Out of 31 folks, I got NO positive responses to this. On the crippleware client, I got responses like 'What kinda of F-wits hide the build commands?' to 'SL goes ArmyOfLamers (AOL)'.

Seems this whole thing is only viewed as great among the self-important names, the Open-Source fanatics that are wild about the client being changed (and overlook the gutting) and the 'screw your neighbor to make a buck' kinds of folks.

And, Slider Zamboni, I never said it wasn't a platform, dumbass...just that it isn't 100% a 100% analog to the web (a 3D web) to be strip mined for data and marketed, as Giff seems to think it is. It was marketed to PLAYERS as a 3D VIRTUAL WORLD, not a 3D Web replacement. That BS came along later from the open source geeks and marketdroids working for big companies (and king phil's occasional delusionary statements that contradict LL's marketing it as a world).

[Prokofy Neva]

Maklin, what I am starting to grasp is that these geeky open-sourcers who always act like they are on the side of the granola-eaters and hippie utopianists in fact are in bed with the evil big corporations.

and what continues to boggle me is that they can take an open source product, but then make something closed and proprietary out of it, and feel no sense of public responsibility -- which um...was supposed to be engendered in them by the whole open-source thang in the first place.

And please don't tell me "the Internet works this way". If the Internet were as rapacious of people, it wouldn't have the participation it does.

[Maklin Deckard]

"and what continues to boggle me is that they can take an open source product, but then make something closed and proprietary out of it, and feel no sense of public responsibility -- which um...was supposed to be engendered in them by the whole open-source thang in the first place." - Prokofy

Well (and pardon me for going tech-speak here), if LL used the TRUE GPL instead of some kind of home-brew Open Source license, the Sheeps have to provide a copy of the source code (INCLUDING their mods) to it, to anyone that asks IF they distribute it outside their own firm (or so the GPL reads, if I recall it rightly, I don't use it or care for it, so may be a bit hazy).

The GPL is viral...you CAN'T reclose it by adding your own proprietary code. Sooo, if you knew a trusted programmer, you could have him/her look a the sheep code. Even make a copy that cuts out the sheep search and put back the LL search (but kept the minimalist sheep look).

And as far as acting like they support the granola eaters and showing personal responsibility, the Geek/Techie of today for the most part, is purely self-interested. There are a few that walk the walk (Richard Stallman, as much as I dislike the man's politics and attitude, lives it). The average techie? They only look to support the hippie mindset WHEN IT SUPPORTS THERE DESIRE TO HACK INTO PROGRAMS...the second that someone waves enough money, the community is dropped like a hot potato and the money embraced.

You are right, its not how the internet works. It is flawed people with stunted ability to related to more than themselves. Having worked with, and been in charge of, a few OS types...most seem to fit the stereotype of talented, asocial and in love with technology. And if you relate to code better than people, why WOULD you have a sense of social responsibility? I'd much rather hire or work with a less-talented tech with people skills than a brilliant and asocial techie...you get more done long-run with less collateral damage to people and society.

[Alex Mc Donald]

GIBNET MULTIMEDIA EQUIPMENT LTD. is a UK based instrument equipment company dedicated to the service of the public in dispensing and selling quality goods and services to the entire public at large.We sales in a cheaper rate price all are brand new comes in there complete accessories packed and sealed by the company service courier. we shipped out within 48hrs. serious buyer should contact us through our Email address:

nelsons9500@yahoo.om, alexis_jeanalex@hotmail.com

Brand New Pioneer DJM-800 Professional DJ Mixer:::::$700
Stanton DJLab.3 DJ Pack..... $300
Numark FUSION 494 DJ CD Package..... $300
American DJ PAR64 LED Package with Free DMX Controller.. .$800
B-52 Prodigy FX and Matrix 2000 DJ PA Package.... $850
Pioneer CDJ800MK2 CD / MP3 Turntable + DJM800 DJ Mixer Package with Free Headphones.... $900
American DJ Two DJ Spot 250 Moving Head Fixtures with Free 1000W Fog Machine.......$420
Numark Battle Pak DJ System ......$150
Numark TT100 Direct Drive Turntable with Free Record Package ....$130
Lighting Complete DJ Sound and Lighting Package ...$820
American Audio CDI500MP3/DLS15P Mobile Scratch DJ Package...$500
American Audio MCD510/Q-SPAND/DLS15P Mobile DJ Package...$650
Denon Denon/JBL DJ Package .......$1,320
Vestax Vestax/JBL DJ Package .....1,200
American Audio CDI500MP3/Tri PAK PA Mobile Scratch DJ Package...$480
Gem Sound CDM150/PAX-252 Mobile DJ Package......300
Pioneer Pioneer/JBL Mobile DJ Package......$2,200
Numark Blem FUSION 494 DJ CD Package.....$200
Lighting Party Pack 4...........$70
HP CARE PACK 1YR PW NBD-DJ4500 SCANNER....$550
HP 3YR NBD H/W SUP DJ8000.....$2,200
HP CARE PACK 3YR NBD-DJ9000.................$255
HP 1YR PW NBD H/W SUP DJ9000................$2,450
HP 1YR PW NBD H/W SUP DJ8000...............$1,320
HP 3YR NBD H/W SUP DJ8000..................$2,200
Pioneer DJ Effector 96Khz/24bit.............$300
Numark DVD01 Professional DJ Dual DVD/CD Player...$280
Pioneer EFX-500 DJ Effector..........$210
X30 DJ Console Midnight Grey (New B Stock)...$210
Pioneer DJ Effector - Red........$199
Odyssey CS4812W DJ EQUIPMENT.........170
VocoPro PKJ9090PRO DJ EQUIPMENT......$220

Pioneer CDJ-MK3 1000----------------$900
Pioneer DJ Effector - Red-----------$350.00
Pioneer Pro DJ Mixer----------------$400.00
Pioneer System Case (CA-CMX5).......$450.00
Pioneer CDJ-800MK2 Digital Vinyl Turntable=--$520.00
Pioneer Dual Rackmount CD Player--------$600.00
Pioneer Pro DJ Mixer (Black)-------------$720.00
Pioneer Rack mount pro DJ mixer---------$780.00
Pioneer Pro DJ Mixer (Silver)------------$710.00
Pioneer Pro DJ Mixer (Silver)............$800.00
Pioneer CDJ-1000MK3 Digital Vinyl Turntable--$900.00
Pioneer 96Khz / 24 bit digital mixer.-----$960.00
Pioneer Flat Speakers (ea.)-------------$980.00
Pioneer Professional DVD Turntable-------$1500.00
Pioneer Professional DVD Turntable-------$1800.00
Pioneer Pro DJ 96Khz 24bit Mixer---------$1,600.00
Pioneer Professional DVD Turntable------$1,720.00
Pioneer Professional DVD Turntable------$1,100.00
Pioneer Djm-800 4 Channel Dj Mixer W/midi---$900.00
Pioneer DJM-400 Professional DJ Mixer------$300.50
Pioneer Pro DJ DJM1000 Pioneer Top of the Line D---$2,100.95
Pioneer DJM-1000 Professional Club DJ Mixer----$1,810.00
Pioneer Super DJ mixer - Pioneer DJM909------$900.00
Pioneer DJM-600-------------------------------$750.00
Pioneer CDJ 800 MK II / DJM 600 CD DJ Package----$1,800.00
Pioneer DJM-1000 Mixer--------------$2,200.00
Pioneer Model: DJM-600K--------------$800.00

Apple iphone 8gb...........$230
Apple iphone 4gb...........$170
Apple iphone 2gb...........$130
Dopod 838 pro .............$200

GPS
1) Garmin Streetpilot GPS 7200....$450
2) Garmin C530 StreetPilot GPS....$120
3) Garmin StreetPilot 7500 GPS....$600
4)Garmin StreetPilot c550 GPS.....$250
5)Garmin StreetPilot C340 GPS.....$130
6)Garmin StreetPilot GPS .........$320
7)StreetPilot c580 GPS............$220
8)Garmin StreetPilot GPS 2730.....$400
9)Garmin StreetPilot GPS NUVI 350....$220
10)Garmin 2610 Streetpilot GPS........$320
11)Humminbird 767 GPS Fish Finder......$180
12)Raymarine A65 Fish Finder GPS.......$650
13)Humminbird 787c2 Combo Fish Finder and GPS....$250
14)LOWRANCE LCX-37c Combo GPS FISH FINDER.......$450
15)LOWRANCE LCX-112c 10.4 inch Combo GPS Chartplotter/Fish Finder......$800
16)LOWRANCE LCX-28c HD 7 inch Combo GPS Chartplotter/Fish Finder......$380
17)Garmin GPSMAP 378 Marine GPS ......$450
18)Garmin GPSMAP 430S Marine GPS........$290
19)Garmin 010-00526-00 GPSMAP 3205 Marine GPS......$400

HTC P5500 (HTC Nike)-----350usd
HTC P6500 (HTC Sirius)---240usd
HTC S730 (HTC Wings)-----330usd
HTC P4550 (HTC Kaiser)---320usd
HTC P3450 (HTC Elf)------400usd
HTC Advantage X7501------400usd
HTC S420 (HTC Erato)-----380usd
HTC P6300 (HTC Panda)----360usd
HTC S630 (HTC Cavalier 100)--350usd
HTC P3400 (HTC Gene)-----340usd
HTC P3350 (HTC Love)-----330usd
HTC Advantage X7500 (HTC Athena) --- 400usd
HTC S320 (HTC Monet) ------------------- 250usd
HTC P4350 (HTC Herald 100) ------------- 300usd
HTC P3300 (HTC Artemis 160) ----------- 220usd
HTC S620 (HTC Excalibur 100) ----------- 420usd
HTC P3600 (HTC Trinity 100) -------------- 320usd
HTC S310 (HTC Oxygen) -------------------- 200usd
HTC MTeoR (HTC Breeze 160) ------------ 280usd
HTC TyTN P4500 (HTC Hermes 200) --- 300usd.

We operate much kind of services and other benefits depending on the rate at which we receive patronage from our buyers and thus this makes us one of the best in the instrument distribution sector.

Note: Only serious buyers are allowed to contact us through our Email address:

nelsons9500@yahoo.om, alexis_jeanalex@hotmail.com

GIBNET MULTIMEDIA EQUIPMENT LTD.
Registered No. 05174319
Flat 11,212 Westferry Road,
LONDON E14 3RT

HELP LINE: +44 7045724424
Web site: www.gibnetltd.4mg.com