A Friday night meeting at Sutherland dam. A Tizzers alt that was deceptively well-behaved and spouting stuff that in fact he probably doesn't think, just to be provocative. Three "litesim.com" freaks, heckling and making nuisances of themselves until they were finally ejected, not because this is a closed meeting, but because *it becomes closed* when people like that keep jamming on the same points over and over, and keep heckling and arguing with me endlessly -- there's always a few kids who need to do that as some kind of testosterone test lol. Notice how the conversation could finally get started after they were ejected -- politically incorrect though it may be. Yet, so little of fruition comes out of this.
A lot of the discussion can be reviewed here. It suffers from the usual SL problem of a handful of coder extremists constantly trying to dominate the discussion, prove that IP protection is technically not feasible or impractical, prove that reverse engineering isn't a crime, prove that open source is the foundation of the Internet -- blah blah blah. I get so that I can just about count the rosary beads of every single one of these doctrines these days as they are rattled out. Oh, here it comes, "If you can see it, you can copy it." Oh, wait for it *checks watch* server-side...client-side...scripts. Oh, set your watch by it! "New business model". Etc.
If I could boil this down, I think Saijanai's suggestion, to take his IP protection concerns (which I continue to view as merely a political face-saving caper by his group, not a really deeply felt need) to the G-team, is folly. We all know the G-team cares naught about IP. Not their windows. Neither does Robin, not her window. The legal team are inaccessible, or if finally accessed, vague or rude to get rid of you. When you have a situation like that of no interlocutor, you have to move to open letters, so I think one is in order. I realize if I start one, it might not gather more than 25 names. That's fine. I'll think about it. Suggestions welcome.
You: Hi Mal
Malburns Writer: Hi Prok
Malburns Writer: cute comic page
Sutherland Dam Tip Jar: Received donation of L$100 from Dryn Trevellion.
Malburns Writer: gawd - IMs - cant they TP and chat for real?
Malburns Writer: Hi Dehri, Dryn
Malburns Writer: Hey - hi Wiz
Wiz Nordberg: hi malburns
Dehri Hyun: hi, Malburns
Wiz Nordberg: couldn't resist the topic!
Malburns Writer: Hi Flower
Flower Ninetails: Hello Malburns
Malburns Writer: yep
Flower Ninetails: Still rezzing
Wiz Nordberg: me tool
Wiz Nordberg: too!
Flower Ninetails: lol
Wiz Nordberg: With This Click I Thee Rez
Tara Yeats: Hi Flower, Wiz, Prok, Dryn
Bill Stirling is Online
Flower Ninetails: Yo Tara
Dryn Trevellion: hi
You: Hi Tara
Wiz Nordberg: Hi Prok
You: thanks for the donation Dryn
Dryn Trevellion: yw
Malburns Writer: Hi Movies
Malburns Writer: Hi Saj
You: Movies you will stay muted becuse of your harassment of me in the past and your gross sexual attack on Sarah Nerd
Tara Yeats: Hi Saj
Wiz Nordberg: i'm here for the topic
Flower Ninetails: Hi konner
Konner McDonnell: Hiya Flower.
You: hi Wiz how did you do with the trademark issue on your site?
Wiz Nordberg: Still a work in progress :)
You: I'll bet!
Wiz Nordberg: it's a topic unto itself
You: did they come after you?
You: yes well just give me the headline : )
Malburns Writer: I live in Eselle - can't TM phomnetics
You: hehe
Wiz Nordberg: "Linden Labs Still Negotiation Treacherous Waters with Inworld Stakeholders"
You: it took me the longest time to figure out what "Eselle" was
Wiz Nordberg: negotiating*
Malburns Writer: but gather they have given up on "SL" part of claim - too vaugue to get it
You: I thought it was like some new cult
You: like EST
You: lol
Tara Yeats: hehe
Malburns Writer: hah - thought was obvious - lol
Wiz Nordberg: It's interesting to follow the interchange between their lawyers and USPTO
You: well were you actually thinking you couldn't start an SL channel on FriendFeed?
Wiz Nordberg: It's all nicely documented using your tax dollars
You: yes I've been meaning to go read that
Wiz Nordberg: USPTO wants to restrict their trademark scope to "entertainment only"
You: hahahah
Malburns Writer: no - i just thought had longevity
Malburns Writer: land of "eselle" in future greater grid or something
You: well there's something in Massachusetts called Second Life that is like some sort of diet supplement or something that existed before them
Wiz Nordberg: But it's all in legal back-and-forth land. To be honest that's just a curiosity to me and has little to do with us
You: I think I saw that somewhere
Wiz Nordberg: To be honest, I have no desire to be in conflict with them
You: well it shows that they are getting some static tho
You: and frankly, allt his talk about everybody getting trademarks -- it's like Yogi Berra said, it's not over til it's over
Wiz Nordberg: So my major goal is figuring out the win-win scenario with them
You: Aimee Weber applied, and was challenged, and I'm not sure she finished everything yet
Wiz Nordberg: But, they are heaping do-do on their own lunch plates going about this the way they are
You: well before we get started I want to point out that this meeting is on the record and will be published on my blog for those who couldn't come at this time
Wiz Nordberg: They have a huge pile of problems in legal and we are nowhere near the top of the pile
You: so it's a public meeting, and if you are thrown into a faint by that, don't talk
Wiz Nordberg: Thanks
Konner McDonnell snerks.
You: These three lanterns here symbolize our issue tonight!
Saijanai Kuhn: so I arrived a little late, the topics is/are:
You: they are all Linden lanters made by Lindens and put on transfer, copy, mod
You: so I sell them all
You: and so can you
You: I improved them first, changed their size, textures, etc
You: and I resell them because I don't think I should tier free Linden dreck for free, I should get $1
You: for making available things that aren't in the library any more
You: as you know the idea that people sell freebies puts content creators in a frenzy
You: and I can only say: check off permissions
You: Permissions I can respect
Malburns Writer: i suspect only real conflict will be if anyone tries to market themselves in way that looks like official endorsed name
You: if those 3 lanterns had "no copy" or "no transfer" I wouldn't hack them
Gareth Ellison: hi there
Malburns Writer: too many in-betweenms to bother with
You: If they accidently suddenly showed up tomorrow after a patch, or a sim restart as all sellable even with "no transfer" on them, I wouldn't sell them
You: they were made 5 years ago when SL was very different
You: so that's what will happen to ALL our stuff soon
Malburns Writer: oops - chat lag
Saijanai Kuhn: Prokofy, I do not believe that will happen with ALL stuff
You: it's all being up for grabs now frankly because the very first thing that people want to do when they migrate to open sim is take all their inventory
You: well you don't believe it, but the Chinese HiPhiHi guys were hugely interested a year ago in libsl and everything to do with reverse engineering
You: why does their world look so similar, right down to that awful chicken-scratch brown land?
Saijanai Kuhn: and even Second Inventory makes an attempt to respect conetent creator's wishes by only porting open permissions stuff
Orange Montagne: howdy
Saijanai Kuhn: the problem is that the system isn't designed to handle the new situation
You: Does the land in China look like a chicken yard in Nebraska?
Malburns Writer: it looks like there are inventory export services starting up - at a price!
You: well the system will have to change
Lalinda Lovell: sai SI is clearly flawed though
You: yes Mal I JUST re-noticed that again today
Wiz Nordberg: Let's take it as a given that as the infotech crowd starts "integrating" that the hard protections for objects will disappear, and it will be widespread
Wiz Nordberg: Let's not question that
Lalinda Lovell: a person can modify an object to appear that they made it
You: Lalinda, you are a known, and repeated event disrupter and I will not hesitate to eject you
Lalinda Lovell: did i do something wrong?
You: yes Wiz as a given
Lalinda Lovell: i was agreeing with you
You: yes many times before, and you know why, and were ejected, and not only from my events and groups, but various others
Malburns Writer: i would have thought long-term to UID or whatever could be controlled by cross-world database somewhere (of objects/creations)
Saijanai Kuhn: the final part of my jira, which I'm resubmitting as a request for policiy clarification tries to make the simplest thing they can do right now, the default: just put a gry, xed out box with "Cration Grid Only" at the top of the permissions flags and blog about the legal issue
Lalinda Lovell: prok, no offence, i have never attended an event of yours
You: Mal, that service called "SL Inventory" -- have you tried it? No one is discussing it in Saijanai's thread on JIRA
Wiz Nordberg: How about a box that says "Allowo Access by other grids"
You: yes you have dear, I have the transcript, and one more disruption and you are out of here
Gareth Ellison: second inventory, not SL inventory :)
Wiz Nordberg: the Default should be "Creation Grid Only"!
Malburns Writer: no - could not be bothered to buy at this point
Gareth Ellison: second inventory are very strict on perms
You: well we hope that will be seen as the default
Dehri Hyun: damn! i just heard of this few days ago and what i was told was the inventory transfer protocol was still in alpha phase and only for the end of the year something could come out as beta or so
You: but it might be that when you teleport some grids simply won't "read" these permissions
Wiz Nordberg: so if anybody is lobbying lobby for the right thing!
Saijanai Kuhn: I mentined it, at least obliquely as the current situation where people are extracting full permissions items under the assumptiont at they don't nee dto ask first
Gareth Ellison: they obfuscate the client download too even
You: I fished up that quote from Joe Miller today that ssaid LL would make the software available for "trusted or non-trusted grids"
Gareth Ellison: prokofy - your source grid's asset server will read the perms
Wiz Nordberg: I think the nerds can design it so that "Creation Grid Only" can't be easily ignored
You: none of this constant nod to "trusted" from Joe Miller
Lalinda Lovell: prok, its your house and i respect that, but i have never been ejected from any event that you did, i came to a meeting you had here once and left after the chat, and caused no disruption
Gareth Ellison: and then not send them to another grid if the proposed "creation grid only" box is checked
Wiz Nordberg: the SL world is very tightly controlled right now on the server side
Malburns Writer: non-trusted? opuch
Tara Yeats: 2nd Inventory seems most targeted to those who are actively creating stuff, based on their SLexchange/OnRez listings
Sutherland Dam Tip Jar: Received donation of L$50 from Lalinda Lovell.
You: yes I was amazed at that today, and of course the fanboyz rushed to his defense when I quoted that
Saijanai Kuhn: the issue that CAN be ddressed right now is simply to clarify the matter for those who want to play by the rules
Wiz Nordberg: Saijanai, is this just a "wish" of yours or do you have any belief that it is being taken seriously?
Gareth Ellison: it's very simple, the asset server just doesn't send out the assets unless the perms allow it - another grid which wants to ignore those permissions is welcome to ask, but the answer will be "no"
Gareth Ellison: i know i've been looking into a mechanism for inventory export which would run on my own servers and consist of IMing the creator once to ask "do you give consent for your content to be exported?"
Saijanai Kuhn: Well, I've ben part of the AWG discussions for a long time and I've had many private chats with many people. The ones who I take seriously, including the Lindens, all want some sensible resolution to the issue
Saijanai Kuhn: "sensible" means doable and that makes a good faith attempt to keep the SL economy going
Gareth Ellison: it would be much easier to not bother with that, or to get a checkbox which serves the same purpose as that IM
Malburns Writer: what may be the most interesting thread is those who now "create" on the open grids and will want a way to import art or products into SL
You: That completely sucks Gareth, you can't do that for every item and some people won't understand, this is not something you do like a frigging CC license on Wikipedia!
Gareth Ellison: not every item
You: it has to be built into the feature set
Gareth Ellison: just once
Gareth Ellison: and it's the only way to automatically check right now
You: Gareth, every creator, that is every item in your inventory
You: that's unacceptable
Malburns Writer: Hi Dizzy!
You: unacceptable
Dizzy Banjo: hey mal
You: hi Dizzy
Dizzy Banjo: and everyone :)
Gareth Ellison: it's the only safe way to export content in a semi-automated way right now
Saijanai Kuhn: Rokofy, I agree it does, but its likely not easy to make changes. The first change, though, just reminds peole of what the current legal situation is, and that can be done by adding an entry in the xml file
Orange Montagne: would have to be defaulted to not transfer out
Tara Yeats: HI Dizzy :-)
Orange Montagne: unless opt-in
Saijanai Kuhn: trivial, doesn't stop anyone who wants to be illegal, but gets the word out about the current legal situation
You: Saijanai, a policy could supercede all this silly stuff: the Lidnens can come on and reiterate what their TOS says: this is not a license to put this stuff on other grids, full stop
Gareth Ellison: i'd love to export my current avatar including my lovely prim hair, but i did not create the prim hair and thus would need to get consent first
Orange Montagne: yes
Gareth Ellison: when i get round to it i'll probably just IM the creator myself
You: and then they can mumble all the PC lingo excepted by their copyleftists about how they will "work toward a Better World of interoperability and a chicken in every pot"
Saijanai Kuhn: right, but that requires lawyers to debate thigns. This can be done by changing a single line of text
Gareth Ellison: but it'd be so much better if the creator simply set a checkbox
Saijanai Kuhn: Gareth but that check box won't register until they change the asset server
You: That's a terrible practice, Gareth, it sucks, and creators will reject it: they need universal solutions, not CC tip jar crap
You: that's why CC fails
Saijanai Kuhn: That may not be easy
Gareth Ellison: prokofy - have you got a better solution right now?
You: Stopping the AWG
Gareth Ellison: it's the best way to export stuff legally right now
You: that would be my solution and always has been
Gareth Ellison: you manually IM and ask permission
You: first lock down the permissions regime and policies and tech
You: then do the other stuff
You: that's how normal people would do it
You: and do do it
Malburns Writer: Hi Eshi !!!
Ravenglass Lastest Listings SERVER: [2008-06-10 09:18:51] Indira Matova (Obscure)
[2008-06-10 14:00:47] Mil Kidd (Columbia)
[2008-06-10 16:03:24] regetotto Little (Alston)
[2008-06-10 17:58:46] Willy Bellic (Obscure)
[2008-06-10 17:59:08] Willy Bellic (Obscure)
[2008-06-10 19:59:50] LJ Constantine (Refugio)
[2008-06-10 22:45:04] Jayda Dreamscape (Tuliptree)
[2008-06-11 00:18:07] Guapo Skytower (Hartwick)
[2008-06-11 05:23:40] Sasja Umarov (Alston)
[2008-06-11 10:19:22] PsyRainbow Naidoo (Baileya)
[2008-06-11 10:19:44] PsyRainbow Naidoo (Baileya)
[2008-06-11 11:34:19] Kendall Glaz (Columbia)
[2008-06-11 22:45:58] Lara Falworth (Burns)
[2008-06-12 10:30:35] Kyber Denimore (Saimaa)
[2008-06-12 21:24:42] TinyJonny Karu (Baileya)
[2008-06-12 22:23:00] Lenapewolf Bravin (Ross)
[2008-06-12 22:29:44] alex88 String (Ross)
[2008-06-13 00:53:42] Tohrments Nitely (Faarsign)
[2008-06-13 04:16:55] Prokofy Neva (Ashmorn)
[2008-06-13 19:04:11] Aino Korhonen (Juanita)
[2008-06-14 01:13:36] Cynthia Berliner (Baileya)
You: and that's why the Samsungs and whatnot did not all rush to agreement in the first interop discussion in San Jose in october 2007 about VWs
Eshi Otawara: Hello Malburns, hello everyone
Gareth Ellison: part of the point of the AWG is to discuss these issues
You: No it's not Gareth
Saijanai Kuhn: once the aset server is changed, and some set of options devised, content creators could let their wishes be known with a single click. Until then, "This grid only" is the only thing that LInden Lab can allow for
McCabe Maxsted: and once the asset server is changed it'll help the economy with creators who are selling stuff that can be used in opensim advertising such, and profits rising, as well as more competition from people in other grids who want to offer things to sl; interoperability is not a scary thing if done right
You: that's a cosmetic add on
You: the whole point of the AWG is to make the world opensourced and interoperable
Gareth Ellison: the discussion is primarily technical, but policy does have a role to play
Orange Montagne: whats AWG sorry
You: and the other stuff is added on as a thumb-sucker "Gosh, that's hard, gosh we need to think about that some day"
You: Architecture Working Group
Saijanai Kuhn: Prokofy, its not meant to be a long-term fix, just a way of reminding peole who want to be honest, what being honest means in this case
Orange Montagne: ty
You: it was formed by the Lindens, with IBM participation, and their top coders and groupies, to make the server code open source, to plan the grid architecture
You: of course they have metaverse-wide ambitions
Saijanai Kuhn: thats all you can expect in within the next week
You: they talk about "a billion people on Second Life"
Gareth Ellison: prokofy - in what venue do you discuss the legal/policy issues related to 3rd party grids?
Gareth Ellison: if not the AWG
Orange Montagne: ya right
You: they talk about people in the millions on the "SL grid" as if everything hooked to them is the SL grid
You: etc
You: I discuss them at meetings like this
You: I attempt to discuss them at Robin's or Michael's office hours
Saijanai Kuhn: no,they talk about 1-2 billion avatars on all virtual worlds. THey're trying to make sure that SL is compatible with whatever comes up by helping design whatever comes up
Gareth Ellison: you discuss them at meetings like this - where do the lindens discuss them?
You: but they are not designed for these issues, they buck them to Zero
You: if you go to Zero, he gets his back up and says, oh, that's not a technical question, you're in the way
You: you should see the crap he ranted about to me last time
You: picking on ever attempt to raise these issues in fact
Malburns Writer: yep - zero is tech - not policy
Dizzy Banjo: frankly they should be in discussion across the grid, if more people were aware..
You: claiming they were already taken care of -- but my God, they are not.
Saijanai Kuhn: at his technical office hours, sure. DO you ever email him or one of the other lindens to ask about setting up a meeting?
You: Saijanai, perhaps you could clear up the matter of the reverse engineering
You: Saijanai, I have known Zero Linden since before you were born.
Gareth Ellison: saijanai - brilliant idea
You: I have dealt with Zero Linden when he was Zarf Vantagarloo
You: I was the one who in fact urged on him the idea of making a notecard no body, not even a Linden could tamper with
You: I've had hours and hours and hours of debate with this man, who is my neighbour on a sim
McCabe Maxsted: a special office hour to discuss this topic with people who can actively work on it on LL's side
You: so please, don't tell me to "suggest a meeting with him"
Saijanai Kuhn: libsl was reverse engineered at least partly. OpenSim is partly based on libsl and those parts are, by definition, refserse engineered. Anything beyond that, you'd have to sdk the relevant programmers for the details
Gareth Ellison: saijanai - opensim was reverse engineered too
Gareth Ellison: i don't know why that's a dirty word somehow
You: with a problem like Zero, you have to go around him, or over his head, or make public discussions with him to hold him to account, there is no other way
Dizzy Banjo: i think discussions about all this should be a wide community discussion really, it would be good to try to let more of the community aware of it
You: because it is against the TOS? that would do it
You: well exactly Dizzy
You: and what would that format be?
Gareth Ellison: prok - "you may create software that accesses the servers with substantially the same function as the viewer...." < basic quote
You: it can't be something called "AWG" to discuss "OGP" where people come to talk about cache and mysquirrel and yoursquirrle and stacks
Gareth Ellison: don't have the exact wording to hand
Dizzy Banjo has tried to suggest to Robin that a front of website message was displayed opening up a discussion
You: they try to bury these political issues under the weight of technical detail and models
Gareth Ellison: one thing which is worrying is TOS clause 4.2 forbids "server emulators" - that's one i've been pushing LL's lawyers to clarify
You: but surely any reasonably educated person who has a stake in SL of whatever kind can reason by analogy and be taken through the design decisions simply
Saijanai Kuhn: That may be partly because the project started as a tecnical thing, not a policy thing.
Malburns Writer: i am fascinated by the tribalnet open-sim variant i donloaded
You: how do you mean mal
Malburns Writer: sim is built and maintained offline til i start server
You: Dizzy and how far did you get with that discussion with Robin?
Dizzy Banjo: nowhere
Dizzy Banjo: lol
You: yeah me too
Malburns Writer: and i remain offline til log in with viwer
You: the same with G-team really
You: Mal, I find that disturbing, that the success of the other worlds hinges on keeping your land off line
Dehri Hyun: and what about the standalone viewers, would they follow the same protocols?
Malburns Writer: seems that desktop sim idea might have a future
Saijanai Kuhn: You guys need to learn a little game play. If one Linden doesn't seem to know what to do, or want to do it, talk to another
You: the beauty of SL is that it is asychronous, that you can leave up tutorials for people in other time zones, etc
You: Saijanai, uh, don't tell me about Lindens and game play
Malburns Writer: like what Vast parkk are doing in Australia
Gareth Ellison: prok - anyone who cares about SL can of course make their feelings known as to the future of the platform, but that means not overreacting at things like "ZOMG! WHAT IS AN AGENT? THEY WANT EVERYONE TO HAVE AN AGENT NOW?"
You: I am at level 60 of Strategic SL
You: I have the following game cards: Pathfinder Linden, Philip Linden, Hamlet Linden, Char Linden, Colin Linden, Adam Linden, Kenny Linden
Dehri Hyun: standalones and viewers will be in future as MSN messenger and other chat channels
Saijanai Kuhn: but you're a soloing avatar, not part of a raid guild
You: and many more
You: AND I have the Philip bear
Dizzy Banjo: lol prok
You: so please, don't tell me "game play" and Lindens
Tara Yeats: LOL
You: I even have Brent Linden's card
You: I have their swap cards, bears, gifts, trees
Jessica Lyon: what does how many lindens you have on your friends list have to do with this meeting exactly?
Gareth Ellison repeats jessica
Saijanai Kuhn puts up his guild tag
You: right on this sim, I have a rare -- very rare! -- original Governor Linden tree set to the rare setting of Governor's Mansion and not Maintenance
You: a "sport"
You: a collector's item
You: why, I've been offered $60,000 for that tree
You: lol
You: it's like a stamp printed up side down
You: I find it just as effective to boycott the Lidnens too Saijanai
Malburns Writer: hang on to it Prok - value will increase for sure!
You: I actually got more IMs from them after I boycotted all their hours
Gareth Ellison: prok - what does that have to do with anything again?
You: It means I am winning at the game of Strategic SL, and you are not, Gareth
You: Deal with it.
Gareth Ellison: i've got a bunch of lindens on my friends list and i have some rare vinyls in the cupboard in RL
You: I also have the rare big Ben Linden bush
Gareth Ellison: so i've got collectors items too
You: and look at this
You: do you think there is a single other soul in SL with the dam wall made by Ben Linden?
Jessica Lyon: ok..srsly? what does tha thave to do with this meeting?
Dizzy Banjo: personally i think a wider exposure of implications and difficulties associated with the work which the AWG is doing.. which has to be technical through necessity.. would actually be helpful to that technical endeavour..
McCabe Maxsted: how big is ben lindens bush?
You: it's big
You: he's a big guy
Gareth Ellison repeats jessica again
Jessica Lyon: i have 17 lindens on my list.. it doesnt make me special?
Jessica Lyon: i dont brag about it?
You: no, merely having the cards doesn't mean anything
Orange Montagne: where did he go to work anyway
You: without bushess, trees
Jessica Lyon: and i wouldnt expect people to listen to me just because of that
Saijanai Kuhn: mmoving back to the topic *I* wanted to talk about:
http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-1272
You: yes well I would urge everyone to read that
You: it's a seminal SL discussion
Gareth Ellison: anyway, i'm drinking a cheap red bull clone and i have "Best of black sabbath" on my mp3 player and i might watch the collectors edition of lord of the rings later
Saijanai Kuhn: obviously its of interest to people I got 152 email messages about comments and edits
You: it even references Hayek and Trotsky
Gareth Ellison: been nice and sunny lately
Gareth Ellison: saijanai - let's discuss that :)
Dehri Hyun: well, i think about inventories transfers between grids will depend of the market demands
You: why aren't you over on your litesim.com where everything is better, Gareth?
You: Dehri you just said a very useful thing
Dehri Hyun: it will rule, we aren`t in any comunist owrld
CrapLastName Federschneider: exactly
You: let's determine if anybody besides geeks even WANT this
CrapLastName Federschneider: Litesim rules
Dehri Hyun: world, sorry
Gareth Ellison: prokofy - because i can't talk to everyone here over there
Gareth Ellison: yet
You: good!
You: So Dehri do you think there will be a demand?
Gareth Ellison: actually, i have the code to enable cross-grid IMs already
Gareth Ellison: just need linden consent
You: If I go to a new world, I actually like the fun of making a new avatar and his clothes, I'm not going to drag all the stuff from here there
Dizzy Banjo: the thing is Saij, whilst that jira is really good and is seminal.. we all know that a vast proportion of the community dont even know what the issue tracker is
CrapLastName Federschneider: well do that then
Gareth Ellison: read that notecard prok
June Cela is Offline
Dehri Hyun: the demand will be unstopable
Saijanai Kuhn: Dizzy, I agree.
You: yes dizzy the JIRA is a HORRIBLe device for governance
You: and deliberately so
You: and that's why you have no choice but to jam on it
Gareth Ellison: the JIRA is a bugtracker
You: overflow it
Gareth Ellison gave you RSVP - Query on TOS clause 4.2.
Gareth Ellison: great for tracking bugs
Gareth Ellison: but crap for any kind of general discussion
McCabe Maxsted: dizzy: that's why the lindens need to make a blog post about this and start addressing the community, before they feel blindsided
Saijanai Kuhn: I use it as to show how much interest there is because its so darned hard to use
Dizzy Banjo: that jira post is official blog material
Saijanai Kuhn: and I still have 152 emails coming from it
Dizzy Banjo: indeed mccabe
Malburns Writer: unlike Prok - i want an avatar that "IS" me evrywhere for usability
CrapLastName Federschneider: general discussion is what the forum is for
You: it has feature proposals too, and since Torley killed the Feature voting system with Angel Fluffy's help, it's been folde din there, so until and unless they remove features out of that back to what they were, in a revised form, we are stuck
Dehri Hyun: Malburns: that´s it
Malburns Writer: can always make alts for special things - noit that i have
You: well Mal what I've always wondered about this
Dehri Hyun: and the same for the inventory
You: is why doesn't just one service make a universal avatar
You: it has a suitcase of stuff
You: and your skins and whatnot
Dizzy Banjo: well i think some recent events re : reoping jira issues have been good though Prok, as you have noted
You: and then universal settings
You: take, don't take here, there
You: why not make that a separate thing
You: would that work?
Dehri Hyun: yes, universal settings
Gareth Ellison: because people already have part of their identity tied to their avatar here
You: it's overrated
Malburns Writer: Weblins have started the avatar idea on the web - just doesnt extend to metaverse yet
You: the interop thing is something that geeks want
Gareth Ellison: that IS a nice idea, but people don't want to recreate themselves again
CrapLastName Federschneider: no
You: even IBM's Sandra Kearney recognized that
BlueWall Slade: IMHO, if a person collects the components to make an avatar - it is that persons work of art and that person should be able to carry his/her identity wherever they go
Dehri Hyun: universal settngs will rule
Malburns Writer: think is a sign of way is going thopugh
Gareth Ellison: prokofy - my customers would disagree
Saijanai Kuhn: tight. NOw, I'm not a Linden, nor do I work for IBM, nor have I submitted patches to OpenSL or libsl...
CrapLastName Federschneider: this is for ease of EVERYONE to transfer to other grids if they choose so
Orange Montagne: I think the universal avatar thing is silly.
Gareth Ellison: 90% of them pester about TPing between SL and litesim or inventory transfer
CrapLastName Federschneider: not simply geeks
You: I tend to agree BlueWall that what you make even out of the game god's elements that is personal is your own content that you want rights to
Dehri Hyun: because what rules in SL is all we can have togheter
Orange Montagne: who needs it, its a total distraction
You: but it can't be done at the expense of the game god's rights OR other sub creators in the world
Saijanai Kuhn: But I've sat in on discussions with folks for the past 12 onths, and I'v got a pretty good idea of what they WANT to see happen on these issues
Dehri Hyun: and more and more diversity makes it stronger
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You: Saijanai, you've talked to a narrow cadre of geeks like yourself
Dehri Hyun: in wish->demand->power of make it happens
Malburns Writer: geeks want interop, but so do a minority of residents
You: did you talk to people like Simone Stern or Starley Therein or Owen Khan or Stroker Serpentine?
Tara Yeats: I think it's in the same vein as being able to move a profile around easily to various networking sites - general users will want it
Saijanai Kuhn: many of whom have SL businesses of one kind or another in their alts
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You: I mean there just isn't any range of people at these meetings
Malburns Writer: when value of interop is evident - more will want it i think
You: the merchants of content are not persent
Gareth Ellison has talked to a load of people: from geeks to total newbies, and most of them want some kind of interop
CrapLastName Federschneider: well if people could come easily, there would be a range
You: Gareth, it is a narrow segment
CrapLastName Federschneider: simple
You: most people don't even know what interop *is*
CrapLastName Federschneider: and there are newbies at our meetings
CrapLastName Federschneider: and they agree it would be useful
Gareth Ellison: "so can i TP to a sim i host with you? how does it work?"
You: they are newbies who are geeks like yourself
CrapLastName Federschneider: no
You: newbie status doesn't guarantee some universality on them
CrapLastName Federschneider: they aren't at all
CrapLastName Federschneider: they can barely spell
BlueWall Slade: Also, IMHO, the virtual world is a thing "who's time has come" and it will grow at en enormous rate - with or without SecondLife
Orange Montagne: interoperability is something that sounds good, but that in the end is relatively useless.
You: Gareth, if a newbie says "TP" and "host" he is not a Wal-mart housewife in Nebraska
You: please
Malburns Writer: merchants will want it for increased sales
Dehri Hyun: this will go this way: i bought a book in NY and i want to be able to read it in Paris, London, wherever
Gareth Ellison: prokofy - i'm rephrasing
You: only if they are not ripped off Mal
Malburns Writer: users will want it to expandable presence
Dehri Hyun: i want take it with me to wherever i go
CrapLastName Federschneider: though I agree with you prok that the idea of litesim is rather geeky at the moment
Gareth Ellison: the exact wording was more like "so, can i go to my place on litesim from here"
Dizzy Banjo: yeah.. id say 50% + of the grid ( who probably regard this as a kind of game ) are totally unaware of it, would probably never go to another grid anyway, and probably have very limited assets to care about
CrapLastName Federschneider: which is why we welcome input from our users
You: Gareth, your narrow take on this is understood, it is not persuasive, and no, the general public, much less the content creation class has NOT repeat NOT NOT NOT been polled, involved, or consulted on this
You: and they should be
You: LL should form a separate group just to discuss this with them
Malburns Writer: no Prok - not if is is ripoff of course
CrapLastName Federschneider: and they do give us input, and we do act on it
Gareth Ellison: ok, change the poll on your blog and scrap the woodbury one :)
You: but they fear being clobbered by the horror that they can't even secure perms on THIS grid
You: let along going out to ANOTHER grid
You: so they put their head in the sand
CrapLastName Federschneider: so please
Gareth Ellison: content creators != random users
CrapLastName Federschneider: stop fearmongering
You: I have polls all over
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Lalinda Lovell: prok did you know the secret of the SL birthday party yet?
Tara Yeats: interoperabuility may be geekspeak, but "being able to pack my stuff ina virtual suitcase" says something to the nongeeks
Gareth Ellison: prok - link to a poll on this issue
You: um secret?
Lalinda Lovell: its on the blog
HeyAgain Guisse: Ask Flipper :) He seems to know *smiles*
You: that would hardly be a proper poll either
Lalinda Lovell: they will annouce a secret
You: only the Lindens really could do a poll on this
You: on the splash screen
You: oh that secret
Dizzy Banjo: yeah
You: no I dno't
You: I'm not FIC
Gareth Ellison: "buying an island from another company and visiting there using the same little icon on my computer" is a very very un-geeky way of explaining interop for some
You: I'm told it will "restore faith in SL"
CrapLastName Federschneider: sure you are
You: that's all I know
CrapLastName Federschneider: at least partially
Dizzy Banjo: lol.. sigh
You: Orange, how do you think a process could be built to consult people on this?
Lalinda Lovell: i know the secret
Orange Montagne: These new grids want stuff to fill their new grids, that's why they want it. To port out your hard work they way they convince Linden to port out the code for free. It's easy to see who benefits and who loses.
Lalinda Lovell: prok message me at the end i will tell you
CrapLastName Federschneider: well
You: some of the merchants like Stroker actually do get all the programming issues and could be crucial to this, he's someone who has actually sued to protect his IP
Malburns Writer: Tell us Lalinda! Will it?
You: uh, no thanks Lalinda, I'll pass.
CrapLastName Federschneider: right now the point right now is to make a free and open port of SL
Gareth Ellison: orange - i don't know about others, but at least myself and the other big grid owners i've spoken to have no interest in piracy
Lalinda Lovell: only prok will take the secret seriously
You: No Crap, that's is NOT the point
CrapLastName Federschneider: the long term goal is to make it easier for people to add features to the grid
Lalinda Lovell: and she has a high rated blog
CrapLastName Federschneider: Prok
CrapLastName Federschneider: who's developing it
CrapLastName Federschneider: us or you?
Gareth Ellison: osgrid.org, openlifegrid and central grid - i know all their owners, and they're all honest and not interested in ripping off content
You: that is the point only for a few with a vested interest in open source, namely the extreme end of the copyleftist Lindens, and IBM, a big company that hopes to get the code this way and benefit in shaping its release
You: that's all
You: *bursts out laughing*
CrapLastName Federschneider: I'm pretty sure I know where the project I'm working on is headed
CrapLastName Federschneider: but seriously
Gareth Ellison: heh, i know for me back in the early days of opensim it was all about (as i put it) "FREEDOM!!!"
You: Saijanai, what is your response to the concern about the design documents never addressing this?
You: I find it unacceptable to say, oh, we'll get to it later
Malburns Writer: IBM can reach a market Lindens have no clue about - think that is why that happened
You: and claiming it is discussed in AWG when you know it is not
CrapLastName Federschneider: letting LL have a monopoly on the virtual world business is a bad tihng
Lalinda Lovell: agreed
CrapLastName Federschneider: with it easier for other to compete, prices on sims will drop
CrapLastName Federschneider: others*
Orange Montagne: If other grids are not interested in porting out or facilitating piracy, they should state it upfront.
Gareth Ellison: prok - it was discussed in group chat just earlier this evening
You: Doesn't count Gareth
You: does not count
You: and AWG is n't the venue
Gareth Ellison: orange -
http://www.litesim.com/tos
You: it needs another group, with another Linden
You: and that's the proposal I will make to Robin or Philip or whatever grownup is in charge these days, I'm not sure
CrapLastName Federschneider: content will only be ported if the owners choose it to be so
Lalinda Lovell: prok who would you propose for it?
You: they ned another group called "World Transition Team" or something
Orange Montagne: CrapLastName - they don't have a monopol at all, only a small fraction of users
CrapLastName Federschneider: or creators rather
BlueWall Slade: IMHO LL cannot grow to meet the demand, so these things will have to be worked out
You: that isn't about destroying the world to move it, but preserving it while moved
Lalinda Lovell: prok i agree, another group that is independent is needed
CrapLastName Federschneider: they have a monopoly compared to other online businesses
You: that means YOU cannnot be in it
HeyAgain Guisse: We don't need another grid based on the platform that Cory Ondrejka developed. We need a whole new metaverse re-thought from the ground up.
You: that's rule number one
Lalinda Lovell: why not prok
You: because it has to be free from constant harrying and harassing with coder issues of the extremist Stallmanite type
Lalinda Lovell: i am a citizen
You: because you don't belong there
Gareth Ellison: heyagain - open SL-like worlds are a good interrim
You: and that's what the Lindens have to accept
You: they have different interest groups,t hey need tow rok with them differently
CrapLastName Federschneider: wasn't it you who said everyone deserves a voice?
Orange Montagne: No, there are thousands of "virtual worlds" with millions more than here
CrapLastName Federschneider: even you do
Gareth Ellison: there's technically superior platforms out there with nowhere near the social acceptance
CrapLastName Federschneider: no matter how little you know about software development
Orange Montagne: there is no monopoly, this is LL creation so they own it.
CrapLastName Federschneider: you cannot simply block people from speaking
You: if I came to ever AWG meeting and stamped my foot and demanded Zero to make a currency support system immediately, I'd be told to get out
CrapLastName Federschneider: exactly
Gareth Ellison: prokofy - because that'd be unrealistic
Lalinda Lovell: lindens rejected my idea for an attempt at coalescing with other virtual worlds
Dryn Trevellion: what is AWG?
You: and yet that's what happens with AWG people with every meeting, including this one, you are told to shut up, accept the inevitable, open your stuff, go to new markets, make a new business model blah blah
Jessica Lyon: prok.. LL owns sl... it isnt a matter of "letting them own a monopoly"
Jessica Lyon: they already do
CrapLastName Federschneider: only if you choose it to be so
You: and this, from 19 year olds who aren't in business and will never graduate from drinking Red Bull in mom's basement frankly
HeyAgain Guisse: There have been thousands of virtual worlds, but most of them lack the ability to create content and IP rights like Second LIfe, which is the key factor that has made this platform shine.
Lalinda Lovell: i am a dev at IMVU and on LITEsim
You: I own SL too Jessica
You: I have 20 sims worth of SL.
Jessica Lyon: orly
Tara Yeats: Dryn - Architecture Working Group
Gareth Ellison: no you don't
You: And yes, it is ownership when you combine all of us: we have clout
Jessica Lyon: lol
CrapLastName Federschneider: 20 sims is nothing
Gareth Ellison: you hire service from LL
Saijanai Kuhn: all teh Open Grid Protocol attempts to do is create a secondlife compatible way for second life compatible grids to share avatars, logins, assets, etc. HOW these things are done is up to each grid oeprator. SOme grids will be waaay beyond any SL or OpenSIm based grid in what they do, but they can still use the OGP to accomplish the common subset of tasks to allow communications and TP and login between worlds
Jessica Lyon: 20 sims out of how many thousands?
You: see that's why you can't be in that other group Gareth, you are just a pain in the ass, with litralist bullshit like that
CrapLastName Federschneider: you are simply a reseller of data space
Jessica Lyon: suggests you read the TOS again
You: we pay the revenue of this company monthly ;we hae a stake; we need a voice
Gareth Ellison: prokofy - there's a point there
Gareth Ellison: you only pay for service
You: me suggests you read my tier bill again
CrapLastName Federschneider: yes, you do
Lalinda Lovell: only shareholders have a stake
Orange Montagne: Exactly HeyAgain, which is what brings value here. I agree, nowhere else with such ability.
CrapLastName Federschneider: you do deserve a voice
You: that's why we need to have a seat on the board
Gareth Ellison: you don't sit on LL's board
Gareth Ellison: you're a customer
CrapLastName Federschneider: but that doesn't mean that everything that comes out of your mouth is exactly the right idea
Gareth Ellison: not a shareholder
Jessica Lyon: prok.. suggest you apply to work for LL.. then you will be on the board
Gareth Ellison: they can't give a seat on the board to every single high-paying client
You: We pay their salaries. We are more important than the VCs, and i"m not interestd in arguing this with you, because your viewpoint supports the copyleftist faction and it's not interesting
You: the views are known, and they aren't helpful, and go nowhere
CrapLastName Federschneider: I'd suggest you actually learn more about software development before you come heralding the problems of open source
Gareth Ellison: lovely open-mindedness there prok - in a discussion that has 0 to do with copyleft
Jessica Lyon: LL provides a service to it's residents, we pay for that service
CrapLastName Federschneider: as I have
You: Jessica, I suggest that you find another world where you won't be as prostrate and as in awe of the game gods as you are of this one, or they will cruelly disappoint you in the end.
Jessica Lyon: that doesnt make us investors
Jessica Lyon: luls
Gareth Ellison: if a business you are a client of starts changing it's own longterm strategy and you disagreee, vote with your wallet
Name Short: Prokofy, I'm going to have to suggest you take your own advise.
Gareth Ellison: we're in a wonderful thing called the free market
You: No we're not, if everything is copied, that's socialism, nto a free market
CrapLastName Federschneider: oh prokofy
You: it's what the Soviets did for years, stealing and reverse engineering
Gareth Ellison: LL are entitled to change their strategy if they want and you have no right to demand anything of them
Jessica Lyon: omg
CrapLastName Federschneider: stop complaining about lenin for once
You: sure do Gareth
CrapLastName Federschneider: honestly
Orange Montagne: Regardless of the coding abilities of IBM or whoever, there is a thing called copyright law. I think there are more than a few creators in SL(tm) which will be interested in being protected by copyright law.
Jessica Lyon: wow.. i am in awe..
You: I'm not the prostrate slave you are to these people because I help pay their salaries
Gareth Ellison: prokofy - if you dislike changes in the service, stop paying
Jessica Lyon: but not at the game gods lol
You: I suggest you acquire a little more spine too
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Jessica Lyon: what gareth said
Dizzy Banjo: tbh.. i dont think its about what we pay.. or what they do.. its about what we create.. SL is made of people and what they create.. not code or a service.. its important that at community is happy ( ie not pissed off by a structure that doesnt support the amazing creativity that SL has seen for the last 5 years ) because without those people SL - or indeed a wider grid network.. will just be that.. an unused service
CrapLastName Federschneider: can you find anything that's actually wrong with open source other than it's socialist?
You: No, I'm here to influence it just as much as anybody, I don't leave America because Bush whom I didn't elect comes to power, I work to change things
Gareth Ellison: i dislike parts of SL, i love the concept, dislike some of the implementation
Saijanai Kuhn: PRokofy, the current suggestion I'm making is the minimalist one that can be done in the next week or so. Anything more complicated, will require more work, discussion, etc. Do you sign off on teh minimalist suggesting I've made at the bottom of the jira description?
Gareth Ellison: so i acted on it
You: Saijanai, do you have a SINGLE Linden reaction?
Orange Montagne: And perhaps reaping a substantial monetary reward from institutional violators of the law.
You: you barely have Zha's reaction
Saijanai Kuhn: The suggestion was a distillation of Zha's reaction
You: how do YOU account for Linden silence on this? lawyers?
Gareth Ellison: i wouldn't give my money to LL for more than a bit of land tier because i don't view it as worth the price - i do consider my ISP's fees for server hosting a good deal
Saijanai Kuhn: Prokofy, I would think so, yes.
You: Zha has always been a moderate on this issue, which is good
You: you have no Linden reaction?
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Gareth Ellison: bring it up at zero's office hours saijanai
Saijanai Kuhn: Zha's reaction to Lillie's pointing out was ... When I said I hadn't thought about that angle, she was amazed. She thought it was the most obvios thing
HeyAgain Guisse: I've said it before on Twitter and I'll say it again. Will the voice of democracy slowly fade as corporate hierarchies become the new micro-governments? Prokofy does have a valid point when comparing the current political system to that of Lenin.
CrapLastName Federschneider: the lindens are aware they do not own the market anymore. Some people will wish to market the products they have already made on other grids to gain more coverage and profit. They have the right to do this, and they have the right to easily do so if they wish it. Just as one can easily move a picture from one photo sharing site to another
You: don't you have anhy Linden pipelines? you have more Linden office hour miles than anybody
CrapLastName Federschneider: rather than resorting to copybot to achieve this
Saijanai Kuhn: This is clearly a TOS/legal/policy isue. My contacts are with geeks
Lalinda Lovell: i think Lenin Linden should head the new group
You: yes indeed Hey, power was lying on the ground in Peterburg in 1917, and whoops, the guard got tired, and the rest is history!
You: Smolny used to be a girls' school.
You: Saijanai, on the itnerface in opensim, is there even room on the viewer real estate for menus with perms?
Gareth Ellison wonders how "only one company can own the whole market space" vs "anyone who has the capital and the skills can compete" is somehow socialist
You: is it even something doable?
Gareth Ellison: prokofy - err, it's the same client
You: open sim -= closed society, and every bit of open sim now is socialist, not run on any free market concept
You: no monetary exchange in world, for starters
You: no intellectual property
You: sims sold at a flat rate with no internal real estate market
CrapLastName Federschneider: oh no
You: how you can call this not socialism, I can't imagine
Lalinda Lovell: do you approve of that or are you against it prok?
CrapLastName Federschneider: now everyone's going to worship lenin
CrapLastName Federschneider: save them!
You: I think only internal real estate markets can make these worlds viable
Gareth Ellison: right, so when i wrote that DMCA policy and the other bit of the TOS which includes "no copyrighted content without permission" i was destroying intellectual property
Saijanai Kuhn: not that I have heard. Why would there be? Zha finished writing the test code about 30 minutes before she took that picture on her blog. That's as far as she had gotten at that point: login to one single server and end up in one specific OpenSIm that was modded to handle that server
You: I think it's the single most brilliant thing the Lindens invented, and that's why I chose it as my area to learn and study.
Lalinda Lovell: prok i clearly remember warning you about adam zaius months ago, and you steadfastly defended him, have your opinions now changed?
Gareth Ellison: hmm, i must be destroying IP because i release my own work under a copyleft license while respecting other people's licenses
You: yes anyone who takes part in that crap undermines it with fake CC stuff
You: CC is total crap, really -- it's a ruse
You: it's a weaning device
Dehri Hyun: well, the solution is LL make a version with standalone and also personal sever for people who uses it just allows in their personal computers who they want
Carl Metropolitan: Okay--I will bite. It's not socialism because it is not compelled. The essence of socialism is that you don't have a choice. The state takes and the state gives away.
CrapLastName Federschneider: your argument would be slightly more valid if you had more main complaints that did not involve the fact that open source is socialist and everyone will explode and everything will be horrible.
You: knowing of people's need for some sort of semblance of copyright, and their vanity need for being credited until the state withers away and we are all under communism, they cooked up that regime
You: people can't make a living on it
Gareth Ellison: prokofy - seriously, when i charge for sim hosting with profit markup, i'm being as capitalist as can be
Malburns Writer: Dehri - that seems to be TribalNet model
CrapLastName Federschneider: They can have copyright
You: not even Lawrence Lessig, who left it
Dehri Hyun: that way SL universe will grow as a standard strong enough for the objects rights be preserverd as they are atm
Jessica Lyon: you have a choice in sl.. if you dont like the rules, dont invest
CrapLastName Federschneider: the software itself will simply not be copyrighted
Gareth Ellison: as for inworld economy - that's something i've got about 10% implemented
You: now they have Joi Ito running it -- he is independently wealthy and doesn't need to protect IP, he runs ICANN and has enough power and money without putting out tip jars on the Internet
You: there you have it
Lalinda Lovell: jessica, lindens change the rules after people have invested, such as with casinos
You: am I wrong Orange?
Dehri Hyun: and who wishes use the SL standard could only use it with the SL interface aproved by LL
LaPiscean Liberty: that works lol
Malburns Writer: metaverse money is in hosting the sim servers - home servers could disrupt that model as is now
Carl Metropolitan: The US Congress changed that rule; don't blame LL
You: Lalinda is typical of people who like to practice social Darwinism and scorched-earth anarcho-capitalism on other people, not themselves.
Jessica Lyon: what carl said!
Lalinda Lovell: prok you got me there
You: Mal, how well do the home servers conntect?
CrapLastName Federschneider: you're only whining because you'll lose money if people can easily get their own land
You: No, I won't
You: I haev real life jobs that have nothing to do with SL
You: Running mainland sim rentals is a fool's errand.
CrapLastName Federschneider: very well
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CrapLastName Federschneider: but why is this such an important issue for you?
You: I do it as a part-time job and I mainly do it to study how things work
Gareth Ellison: prok - again, how is it "socialism" to charge money for a service? (sim hosting)?
Malburns Writer: TribalNet is only one i tried - worked well enough but is limited to their grid - sim rezzed lightning fast
Jessica Lyon: what gareth said lol
You: it's like the corrupt minister of internal affairs charging for a business license
You: instead of an open market where all prices are visible nad people buy and sell through an interface
You: you have to deal with individual dealers behind the screen, not in the world
Gareth Ellison:
http://www.litesim.com/services
You: the transactions aren't open, in the world
Gareth Ellison: all prices visible
You: it is like the Oriental bazaar, and not the Western dime store
Saijanai Kuhn: anywya, has everyone read my littlke jira? I'm going to distill the policy request down to that single interface chaanage and submit it. And talk to the GTream tomorrow
Saijanai Kuhn: GTream*
You: Saijanai, what on EARTH makes you think G-team will do IP? they won't
You: they don't
Gareth Ellison: and if i revealed all the personal transaction data i'd be in for a major lawsuit
You: they deflect it
Gareth Ellison: so it can't be "in the open"
CrapLastName Federschneider: prokofy's right
You: literalism again Gareth
CrapLastName Federschneider: they won't
Saijanai Kuhn: suggesting by Rob. Soft suggested the policy clarification request Jira.
Saijanai Kuhn: The GTream will probably kick it around for a hwile
McCabe Maxsted: sai: do you have a position on what "fair use" will be with interoperability? I think that might come up
You: well Soft just buck danced you my friend
Gareth Ellison: i can tell you numbers of how many transactions there are in terms of sims, i can't tell you "Bob brought a sim on
Saijanai Kuhn: but someone will eventually notice
Lalinda Lovell: real issues are being fobbed off into jiras
Gareth Ellison: so again, how is it socialist to charge for sim hosting?
CrapLastName Federschneider: it's been brought up before
CrapLastName Federschneider: and they won't do it
You: and that's what's wrong with the society if it has no deed office
You: we lost that here too
You: we no longer know that Bob bought a sim on X date for Y price -- we used to
Dizzy Banjo: well i must go , thanks for this interesting discussion all, i remain cautiously optimistic. I think there are changes afoot in LL which could mean a far greater understanding of a successful business model which will revolve around user satisfaction, surely this would be a critical issue for them to solve so... anyway must go
Gareth Ellison: prokofy - wtf?
CrapLastName Federschneider: this is data storage
CrapLastName Federschneider: nothing more
Gareth Ellison: what if bob likes his privacy?
CrapLastName Federschneider: nothing less
Saijanai Kuhn: McCabe, my only position is that if you obtain the permission of the content creator to take it off the SL grid, thats the end of the story, as far as I'm concerned
CrapLastName Federschneider: it only appears to be lande
Gareth Ellison: anyone who tells everyone bob's private info is in for a lawsuit from bob
HeyAgain Guisse: These open source grids are home-spun reverse engineered projects that are based on Cory's SL of 7 years ago. Perhaps we need to think bigger and adopt a fully integral metaverse like Raph Koster is currently working on.
CrapLastName Federschneider: when passed through the proper program
You: Gareth you're not grasping the story here
Gareth Ellison: i know i'd be pissed if every vendor (in RL and SL) told everyone my purchase history
Malburns Writer: Thilip said that recording was coming back Prok
You: in real life, if you buy land, that is a public matter
Lalinda Lovell: prok is right, its a virtual world, so needs to be treated like a real world
You: any one can go to the deed office and find out what you paid
Malburns Writer: at his "The Tech" speech
You: and in SL, it used to be that way too
Gareth Ellison: prokofy - and in SL you buy sims, while in reality it's a service
CrapLastName Federschneider: whether it is a virtual world or not
Saijanai Kuhn: HeyAgain Guisse, you're part of the OPenSim team or the AWG?
You: every sim acution on the mainland showed a number and a name
CrapLastName Federschneider: at it's core it is data
Gareth Ellison: you're renting the ability to make use of LL's hardware
You: that was all removed when they changed to ebay's technology
Gareth Ellison: and the storage of your content
You: even tho ebay itself also has open transactions
CrapLastName Federschneider: it's only a world if interpreted properly
You: you know which name bought what and won which auction
Gareth Ellison: ugh, chat lag here
Lalinda Lovell: heyagain is here because she is my adopted daughter
You: that's just basic stuff
Gareth Ellison: on auctions
Gareth Ellison: right
Gareth Ellison: but that's not "all transactions"
You: on private island sims, you can go to the sim, and see the name
You: and they have a flat rate, so you know what they paid
Gareth Ellison: you can see "bob won the auction"
You: Gareth, it used to be the case
You: it's an OPEN SSYTEM
CrapLastName Federschneider: sims are a flat rate in litesim
You: the open source is ironically CLOSED
CrapLastName Federschneider: they're the same price
CrapLastName Federschneider: all the time
Gareth Ellison: prokofy - serious question which will sadly sound trollish
You: in SL, my land set for sale for $12,000 is visibly bought in world by somebody that my neighbours can see and know what they paid the next day
Gareth Ellison: and i apologise in advance
CrapLastName Federschneider: yeah
CrapLastName Federschneider: well you wasted your money
CrapLastName Federschneider: sorry
Gareth Ellison: do you have (or has anyone ever suggested) that you have any schizotypal personality disorder?
Jessica Lyon: hahahaha
Gareth Ellison: seriously
Name Short: rofl
Lalinda Lovell: thats very personal gareth
You: Gareth, no, and the problem is, while you may be subject to your condition's systems, I refuse to be.
You: End of story.
Gareth Ellison: because you overreact a hell of a lot
CrapLastName Federschneider: about lenin and socialism too
Gareth Ellison: bingo
Gareth Ellison: you see leninists everywhere
You: No, I push back against literalist pigheaded bullshit such as is coming from you
CrapLastName Federschneider: and that's typical of paranoid schizophrenia
You: your problem is you have never been told "no"
You: everyone tip-toes around you
You: I don't
Gareth Ellison: LOL
CrapLastName Federschneider: we only want to help
You: Saijanai
Gareth Ellison: you figured me out - i'm a spoilt little kid :(
You: what is your plan B?
Lalinda Lovell: personally i have broken child syndrome and i am not ashamed
You: after G-team deflects you?
You: do you think a petition or open letter is in order?
You: I may do that anyway
Jessica Lyon: well, i've wasted enough time here.. i'm going to go sell all my land and leave sl because i dont like the fact that my neighbors can see what i paid for my land
Jessica Lyon: thanks for everyone time
Gareth Ellison: jessica - they can't
You: yeah you belong back in the medieval ages Jessica
CrapLastName Federschneider: buy her a time machine then
Jessica Lyon: right.. i'll go buy a sl time machine and go back there
CrapLastName Federschneider: with your 12 000 dollars
Jessica Lyon: thx lol
Gareth Ellison: in RL i can see what my neighbour's paid for their houses
Jessica Lyon: epic lol btw.. have fun folks
Lalinda Lovell: prok when the secret is annouced you will not be happy, have a quiet day beforehand
Gareth Ellison: it's a bit stalker-ish to check it, but possible
Jessica Lyon: i cant listen to prok anymore
Gareth Ellison: however
Gareth Ellison: i can't see what they pay for other stuff
Gareth Ellison: and the only reason the value of their home is public knowledge is due to the tax system
CrapLastName Federschneider: unless you go through their garbage
CrapLastName Federschneider: which is also a bit stalkerish
You: I can't imagine that whatever the Lindens announce, it will be worse than anything else they've announced, and surely not anything compared to real life's announcements that really matter, so I remain calm : )
Gareth Ellison: well, yeah - but that's even MORE stalkerish
You: Yes I think I will get up a petition
CrapLastName Federschneider: not like it stops anyone
You: and the elements would be this:
CrapLastName Federschneider: I'll make a petition too
CrapLastName Federschneider: banning socialism
CrapLastName Federschneider: so then you can be at peace
Orange Montagne: thank you for hosting the discussion Prokofy
You: We're concerned about a lack of a working group on the social and economic side of the transition to open source and open grid, and we need a separate group with separaet Lindens
Gareth Ellison: anyway, i don't have a clue what my neighbour pays for anything else, except i can take a guess at how much he pays for satellite TV
You: and the issues to discuss are:
You: o future of IP protection
Gareth Ellison: i don't know what package he's on though.......
You: o future of land and tier pricing
You: o future of groups
You: will the groups port over to other grids
You: or do they have to be all reconstructed
McCabe Maxsted: that's a lotta o's there prok, sounds like youre having a good time ;)
You: so you can add more things
CrapLastName Federschneider: land and tier prices will obviously go down
Gareth Ellison: apparently satelite TV is socialist, cos my neighbour's subscription price isn't public
CrapLastName Federschneider: SL needs to be competitive
Gareth Ellison: lenin must own BskyB
Lalinda Lovell: mcCabe lets be polite to Prok, this is her house after all
You: Crap, this idea that to be competitive, it has to shake loose all its top merchants and land developers seems short-sighted
CrapLastName Federschneider: if other grids are cheaper, people will flock to them otherwise
Gareth Ellison: prokofy - who's said it has to do that?
Avatar ejected.
Dehri Hyun: sorry, i crashed
Avatar ejected.
McCabe Maxsted: just a random joke into the mix, no harm meant
Avatar ejected.
Malburns Writer: the metaverse is the future of communications - real question is whether linden agenda is to work toward opening comm channels with others
You: Sorry but I'm done with heckling
You: I want to have a discussion not about litesim, open sim and copyleftist ethics and why you can't do this
You: I want to have a discussion about how you can try
HeyAgain Guisse: @Crap. Not necessarily. Why do people come into SL? For the social experience right? If these other grids have a population of 200 people you're not getting the same experience as you would on the main grid.
HeyAgain Guisse: Which is exactly why the Linden grid will always reign.
You: ever meeting at which you try to have a reasonable discussion, it is heckled and harassed by people wanting to mpose the open source copyleftist ethos on you
Malburns Writer: But HeyAgain - SL was small too once
You: it's a known quantity, and it's not interesting
HeyAgain Guisse: Malburns- It was small but it was the only game in town. No pun intended.
You: Mal, do you see yourself moving lock stock and barrel to open sim?
You: it has 5000 or so people in all those new open grids, but there's not a lot they can do
You: most people talk about just building offline, or by themselves
You: it sounds to me like the Sims 2
BlueWall Slade: IMHO, if people are talented and willing to develop software for a particular purpose, and inclined to do so, they should
You: if I wanted to play Sims 2, I'd turn on Sims2
You: BlueWall, you can't stop people from developing software
You: and you shouldn't
Malburns Writer: america was tiny colonies at one point - yet became big because seemed to offer something original homelands could not - EXAMPLE
Dehri Hyun: copyrights must remain protected as they are now, the best is do one SL UI with more options as standalone and restricted personal server and use it as windows or linus or something like that and even with versions for linux, windows and so
You: but when other people pay for that development constantly, they should have a say
BlueWall Slade: look at Apache....
HeyAgain Guisse: The magic of Second Life comes from the vast amount of people simultaneously existing in the same space.
HeyAgain Guisse: Without that, it's horribly bland.
Malburns Writer: dont ask me about 21st century us though - lol
You: we have a situation now where corporations with less islands than some of us; kids; freaks -- they are deciding
BlueWall Slade: it runs most of the web
You: that's wrong
Saijanai Kuhn: I'd like to point out the long-term plan for SL is to create "trust" webs where grids not only can share assets, but money and avatars can walk between them the same way they walk between sims right now
Dehri Hyun: SL UI must start work as msn messenger or skype or so
You: Dehri, the thing is, the grids are aleeady connecting
Saijanai Kuhn: IN fact, one of Zero's goals is to make walkability a visual sign of trust. If the two grids are on the same page concerning all those issues, you can walk between them
You: BlueWall, open source does NOT run most of the web
Malburns Writer: Hope so Saj
You: that's one of those doctrines of opensource that is skewed, and not true
Dehri Hyun: the currency is very important
You: the money is not on that aspect of it; it's in proprietary code
BlueWall Slade: it runs ALL of SL
You: the Internet would remain a game inside MIT's basement if you didn't have amazon or ebay
You: no, SL is proprietary code or we wouldn't be having this discussion
Dehri Hyun: the money is primordial
You: and they paln on open sourcing it
You: well that's just it Dehri
Saijanai Kuhn: Which linden cancelled his office hours yesterday because he was demoing the new L$ APIs itnernally. Zero hinted Tuesday that LL may make thos available
You: there is such a loud caucus of socialists and anarchists that you can't hear the practical concerns voiced
Dehri Hyun: you buy something in SL with a value and wich value will have in other grid'
Dehri Hyun: ?
You: Saijanai, I find that fascinating
You: given that months ago, Zero -- or some Linden who got on the wiki first -- said they would have to close the Lindex, it would nto be viable with other grids
You: how do you like them apples
You: yes Zero hinted they MIGHT make those available -- and I have to wonder, to whom? if Adam doesn't have buying and selling
Saijanai Kuhn: if you can walk from Sim A in GRid SL to Sim G in Grid BB, you can certainly expct the money to behave the same as far as buying power and worth, because you can see the two neighboring sims
Saijanai Kuhn: So two grids could form a super continent
HeyAgain Guisse: My question is, why Linden dollars? Why not just paypal transactions? If they want this to be the web in 3d why not start treating it like the web?
You: Saijanai, but it will depend on how the viewer and servers and security systems work
You: obviously with real cash involevd you can't have Joe's Garage
Dehri Hyun: i´m one RL 3D artist, if i start doing things for SL kinds of grids i want to peortect my interests
You: how do you think you can do that Dehri?
Saijanai Kuhn: Thats the "hard" issue (in the mathematical sense), but that's their goal
You: would it be something on a menu on the object itself? or on a log-on?
You: like a TOS?
Dehri Hyun: well, lindens can be bought by other currencies as Euros or Dollars
You: Hey Again
You: once again let me try to explain:
You: you don't want worlds to be "like the web"
You: the web is 2-D!
You: the web is not multi!
You: it is not 3-D!
You: it is merely a two-way transaction!
Dehri Hyun: if we go from one grid to other a currency must work there
You: when you buy an open sim from a realtor on PayPal, you are not in a world economy
You: you are on in that guy's storefront on the Internet
You: the whole reason SL *works*
Saijanai Kuhn: The difference between SL and the web is that you can't take stuff with you from web page to web page
You: is because it simulates the real life of a real market in the world itself
Saijanai Kuhn: or from website to website
You: I don't have to wait for that guy in the storefront to give me a refund; I can resell to another person freely
Saijanai Kuhn: webpage sorta is like sim, website is sorta like grid
You: it's what makes SL not an Oriental Bazaar, not a Renaissance Faire, but a free an open market
Saijanai Kuhn: but the difference is you can't even dream of taking things with you from webpage to webpage
HeyAgain Guisse: So if the web is 2D, and Second Life is not the web... what benefit is the metaverse offering to real world business? What makes this a tool and not a game?
You: it really matters to an economy that you can liquidate out a sim in the middle of the night, or add another parcel any time, or trade with another person
You: having a real economy Hey
Dehri Hyun: well, if the the lindens can be bought and sold why can`t diferent grids have a common currency exchange market that operates the exchange automatically?
You: and that means a real estate market, and content markets that are free pirces
You: *prices
Malburns Writer: metaverse and web are both part of internet - but parallel i think
You: well it must be that those other grids will have to sign a risk API
Saijanai Kuhn: HeyAgain, the idea of the metagrid is that you will be able to visit multipe worlds/grids some of which will be just like SL, and some of which will be radicaly different, and you CAN take stuff with you
You: they have that now with third party currency sellers like Anshe
Saijanai Kuhn: WHICH stuff for which world, is the issue here
Malburns Writer: web gives upload and download
Malburns Writer: metaverse doesnt yet
HeyAgain Guisse: I'm digging deeper than that Prok, why do people buy real estate? Is the end result playing house? Is having a virtual presence really much more beneficial than having a 2D web presence?
BlueWall Slade: but, in *real estate* not that much land is being created nowdays
You: yes of course it is Hey
You: you're just disliking virtuality, apparently
Saijanai Kuhn: HyeAgain, different value from 3D vs 2D. From neughoring sims vs nothign lie it in teh web
You: it has 100 things to offer that isn't about playing hosue
You: many peole have written on this, not just me; Cisco's guy Christian Renaud for example
Malburns Writer: having a sim is like having webpages
You: it offers interaction, collaboration, asynchronicity, serendipity, etc
Malburns Writer: different use to different people
You: it's much more than a web page
HeyAgain Guisse: I am indifferent, my real goal is to figure out how this platform is going to benefit business. Like you said, without amazon the internet would still be a game in MIT's basement.
You: a web page at work I might put up, and refresh once a week
Malburns Writer: not all have sims, not all have use for webpages
HeyAgain Guisse: What will be the amazon of the metaverse?
You: the interactions I havei n SL are much richer, more complex, more involevd and further widespread
Saijanai Kuhn: PRkofy, didn't mean to say that that was ALL a sim was, only that you could sim or grid hop just as you can webpage link right now
BlueWall Slade: hehe, i got my first copy of Linux form MIT
You: At one time I thought it could be LL; nto sure about that anymore
You: I have to conclude that some big thing will buy them out and do that
Malburns Writer: Amazon servers prob HeyAgain - lol!
You: amazon itself could be that thing
HeyAgain Guisse: Interestingly enough, SL client downloads are hosted on S3 Amazon servers.
You: perhaps it will never grow beyond entertainment use, and a very narrow niche of educational and scientific use
Dehri Hyun: as i said, the power of the RL market demand will impose what it will wich without mercy so better be ready for that
You: this idea that there will be a billion Sl users to me seems utterly ridiculous
Malburns Writer: heck - you already download SL client from amazon servers!
You: it's how someone thinks who isn't htinking about people and society, but only about code
BlueWall Slade: @Prok, i used to think that about teh Internet
You: you can't make a billion of anything without some plan for a society, for governance
You: this isn't the Internet
You: the Internet doesn't even work the way you claim the Internet does in fact
Dehri Hyun: this is the internet, sorry
You: no, it's a world, and that matters
BlueWall Slade: yes, but a generation of kids who sat for hours plasying "sims" is upon us
You: it's resting on or in the Internet, but it's different
You: yes and they will see it more as a world and as normal even than I will
You: and not treat it as a mere page
BlueWall Slade: they are at home here
You: "page" is a metaphor from Gutenberg's day
You: they will be overridden
Malburns Writer: code comes first prok - then usability - there will be a billion or more but timescale is unknown
You: they will accept worlds and RL/SL mingling
Malburns Writer: and tech changes
BlueWall Slade: oh, no - it's much more powerful that a web page
You: Mal, I wouldn't want a billion of anything just for the sake of a billion
You: there are 69 million people or more on Facebook
You: what unites them?
BlueWall Slade: they will driver the market
You: are they all Mark Zuckerberg's friend?
You: do they all have vampire bites?
HeyAgain Guisse: THough this platform may be "richer and more complex" The current model of real world business is obviously not working. Have you seen geek squad island lately? It's a ghost town. Same with Sun Micro. The numbers are just not showing a promising return on investment. How can we fix that?
Malburns Writer: it's not us wanting a billion
Tara Yeats: Does anything *have* to unite them?
BlueWall Slade: they like the idea of sharing information about themselves
You: well Hey, this idea that there is this youth tide that is coming that will be all geeky and platformy and copylefit isn't born out
Malburns Writer: ppl will want it themselves when tech becomes as everyman as web did
You: my customers are young; they are the growing Hispanic population of this hemisphere; they are here to play house and store, and they treat it like an extension of SL, for example
You: The Asians, the Europeans, they are here to play h ouse and store.
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You: They are not here banging you on the head and telling you it is code, it has to be free, it has to be the Internet
You: they don't need web on a prim, becuase they have it on...their desk top
Tara Yeats: Guisse - I think the most fruitful directions at the moment aren't marketing - they're collaboration, meetings, training, education
Malburns Writer: 80% or more are here to "play" that at moment Prok - not all of us
You: Tara, do you think meetings are really the killer ap tho? I have read so much on this, yet not really seeing studies that bear it out
Malburns Writer: the balance will change as usability improves and others see potential in platform
Saijanai Kuhn: and I think most people are missing the fact that if SL suddenly got 2x the number of epoel trying it, they couldn't move. LL doesn't do much, if any, marketing to general users, and has never done advertising that I can see
You: IBM doesn't spend its time on here in meetings and training; they are noodling around trying to open source the software, as we can see!
Saijanai Kuhn: IBM has their own servers, Prokofy. Geeze
HeyAgain Guisse: Education. HA. Education. Malburns have you actually toured some of the campuses here in SL? I think Ohio State had like 30 traffic last time I checked.
Tara Yeats: Prok - doesn't have to be the "killer app" to be important...especially at gas hitting $5 US shortly
Wiz Nordberg: Sorry, but to me this is all going back and re-questioning basic assumptions about the value of virtual lives. That could go on for decades. Why not assume that virtual lives have value, that the things we create have value, and go on and say what will happen in 5 years if no protections are in place? Back to the IP issues?
You: well that's why I told Tess Lidnen in the meeting the other day, hey, make it work for 60,000 log ons before you "go to the Internet"
HeyAgain Guisse: The problem is that the platform is not being fully utilized.
You: Tara, I'm going to do a serious study on that this summer
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You: I have it all planned
Saijanai Kuhn: Prokofy, the idea is to revise the design AS they go for the internet.
You: surveys, interviews with industry leaders
You: we'll see if it is true
Malburns Writer: IBM, Cisoco and Sun - all doing gfood work, but these are huge corps and is funded by R&D division which are looking way ahead into future
You: $5 gas makes people go to the Catskills instead of Florida, doesn't make them go on SL
You: well do they really eat the dogfood?
Saijanai Kuhn: LL is funded by Angels. The fact they are mnaking a profit is gravy
You: does Sun ever come on here?
Tara Yeats: Prok - that's my "take" from what I"m hearing - still all too new to have much more than some use-case examples
You: can't be much ohf a profit, it 's a big cash burn
Saijanai Kuhn: I'm on the firends list with several Sun employees. I have the email with the guys workign on Porject wonderland
You: it's a hell of a way to make money
Tara Yeats: Sun does, from their presentations - Cisco does, IBM does
You: as I could tell them, being a microcosm of them
BlueWall Slade: hehe, they will come here because they can have sex - can't do that on facebook, lol
You: so how is that "the Internet" then Blue?
BlueWall Slade: social interaction
Malburns Writer: Hasnt Fiona May been here a couple of meetings Prok?
You: you wold think people would prefer to go on a web cam and see a live prostitute and interact with a real human, even in a scripted way, but instead they come on here to have sex, it's more authentic to them
You: because they can customize it
HeyAgain Guisse: I met the lead project manager of the Sun Micro sim at Metaverse U at Stanford, their most popular attraction is their sandbox. Other than that it's a museum of prims with server textures on them.
BlueWall Slade: it is a puzzle to me - but yes, lol
You: museum of prims, right
You: Fiona May, that name does sound familiar
BlueWall Slade: i have a friend, lol
Wiz Nordberg: Good lord, if we, the converted, are arguing about why people use virtual worlds, then we have a problem, Houston.
Malburns Writer: She is with Sun
You: ok
Malburns Writer: Lol Wiz
You: well you're right, but the argumentation has to be throught through if you attract others
Malburns Writer: couldnt agree more
HeyAgain Guisse: This meeting could very well be taking place in Skype, how is SL making this any richer? (I'm playing Devils Advocate here).
Wiz Nordberg: Yes of course, this is human motivation.
You: I don't see how I could convince dozens of people I work with in RL to spend time on here
You: it wouldnt' be a value add for them
You: because I can run a rental business and be paid to sit here
Tara Yeats: Guisse - the visuals are lots more interesting than a group doing skype text
You: because people from England can be here
Dehri Hyun: Hey: this is the last Skype generation, see it that way
Wiz Nordberg: But, I think there is enough empirical evidence that there is motivation to assume that we, the converted, are onto something, and now we, the converted, are trying to figure out how to protect the core of what we believe is the value that's motivating all of those others.
You: because there's a tip jar
You: etc
Saijanai Kuhn: Prokofy, I always send peoploe to the Second LIfe Library, but we may have a different circle of friends
You: to the Library for what?
You: I think Skype will persist, just because it's cheap
Saijanai Kuhn: to learn more about what can be done in SL
You: maybe that won't last
Wiz Nordberg: I love arguing about the philosophy of out-of-body experiences in virtual worlds, but I am really concerned that capitalism will steal the baby whille we're not looking.
You: um, where is that capitalism, Wiz/ I wish it would show up!
McCabe Maxsted: the chupa-capitalists
You: instead what we have is hippie communism, socialism, anarcho-capitalism that benefits the state or a few corporations only
Wiz Nordberg: Oh, ok, poor choice of words
Wiz Nordberg: Opportunists
Malburns Writer: That's part of the danger Wiz - corporate interest is not going to be caught on the hop by a change as pround as the web was
You: well where are they?
Wiz Nordberg: Regardless of ideology
You: that is, we alreay have them with people like ad farmers
Malburns Writer: profounds meant
HeyAgain Guisse: Would you rather wall-mart showed up in SL and started making ESC quality stuff for L$1?
You: we already had a wave of these companies like American Apparel, and it was a bust
You: that's fine Hey
You: let them
You: I doubt they'd bother tho
You: it's not their model
Tara Yeats: Prok - same thing happened with the early web businesses - always takes some nice failures to sort out what works
You: BTW, did you realize that your visceral hatred of Wal-mart is the result of a very clever and well-funded ad campaign for years by very sophisticated and highly-paid unions lol?
Tara Yeats: and SL isn't exactly an easy-to--learn interface
You: even they have stopped the hate now
HeyAgain Guisse: Well the fact is, somebody is going to do it. And it will bury independent business, Prokofy.
Wiz Nordberg: that will change Tara
Malburns Writer: the corps to waych are those involved with copmmunications - both the tech and the implementation - it is those who HAVE to be alert right now
Wiz Nordberg: I used SL on my Nokia N95 this morning
You: was it kinda dinky Wiz?
Tara Yeats: Wiz - I think so - it has to
Wiz Nordberg: So interface problems are a temporary issue
Carl Metropolitan: My visceral hate of Walmart is based on screaming children there. I quite like Walmart after two am.
Tara Yeats: LOL Carl
You: I love Wal-mart, they have cheap toothbrushes, and give my friends with kids and bills to pay jobs
Malburns Writer: i read that Sony metaverse may reach Sony mobiles before Playstation - weird
Carl Metropolitan: The only place in town you can get a microphone and a new keyboard at two am, too
Wiz Nordberg: I'm happy as anybody to change the topic to mobiles, but are we done with IP here?
Malburns Writer: interfaces will adapt to transports
Wiz Nordberg is agenda-obsessed
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Saijanai Kuhn: anyway, I'l be at the GTream to say my piece noon tormorrow...
HeyAgain Guisse: You want to talk about communism, corporations are becoming the new governments. Just like Linden Lab. We have no democratic power here. Only the upper elites, the FIC, the Lindens, and their comrades do.
Tara Yeats: Personally I think the IP discussion is way bigger than just SL - just look at the chaos in the music industry
Malburns Writer: is usually freeform agenda here in end Wiz
You: saijanai, start a new plan B
Saijanai Kuhn wonders why GTeam always gets spelled GTRream
You: I am going to make a petition in fact
Wiz Nordberg: First time, mal. Sorry :)
Malburns Writer: whether or not by design that is!
HeyAgain Guisse: Speaking of Governance team, somebody please re-world Intlibber's last JIRA and get it back on the list.
HeyAgain Guisse: re-word*
Dehri Hyun: everyone stops talking preciselly at 7:30? lol
BlueWall Slade: oh, i though the sim crashed
HeyAgain Guisse: There are too few people, with too much power in this virtual world. Where are the checks and balances?
Malburns Writer: DAAAAMMMMMNNN - the botclock stopped again
Malburns Writer: lol!
Tara Yeats: LOL Dehri - don't tell... we've all snuck off for a quick biobreak
You: yes there aren't checks and balances, for sure
You: what was Intlibber's last JIRA?
Dehri Hyun: i´m an alt of Cato Tomsen, my real AV
Dehri Hyun: in SL i found the importance of the duration of a meeting
You: a "real" av as opposed to an "unreal" av lol
You: well this one goes 90 minutes
Dehri Hyun: i´m also a lawyer in RL
You: you are welcome to stay tho and chit chat
You: we often do
You: I just have customers to attend to
HeyAgain Guisse: Intlibber's last JIRA was the "Who's watching the watchers" in regards to the governance team.
Dehri Hyun: well, i do have one agenda in SL as the RL 3D artist i also am, so, better i run
HeyAgain Guisse: If I recall correctly, you voted in favor of it Prok.
Dehri Hyun: thanks to everyone for the meeting
Carl Metropolitan: Oh--I thought it was the "Fight socialism by regulating what businesses can do on their land with camping chairs"
Dehri Hyun: and was nice to meet you too
Dehri Hyun: see ya
You: hmmm
Malburns Writer: Good to see you Dehri
Dehri Hyun: GMT here too, lol
McCabe Maxsted: link?
You: I don't approve of most of what Intlib puts up
HeyAgain Guisse: Intlibber had the right idea but his wording wasn't choice.
You: I'd have to review
Malburns Writer: I am London - hah - we are all late
You: I'd be opposed to something that said that about camping geez
You: I have a simpler one" let's regulate bots"
McCabe Maxsted: I wouldn't mind rewriting it if it's a good proposal, I hate to see good jira's closed for technicalities
You: can you send a link McCabe?
McCabe Maxsted: don't know it, was asking for one so I could look at it
HeyAgain Guisse: Getting that URL right now.
Carl Metropolitan: I have no great problem with regulating camping or bots. But framing it as "fight socialism" was just strange.
You: yeah I'm all for fighting socialism
You: but you can't make that a JIRA
You: it must become a way of life
You: : )
Malburns Writer: Yea - very odd Carl
HeyAgain Guisse:
http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-1216
You: let me look
HeyAgain Guisse: Of course, it was closed. Like I said, too few people with too much power.
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Malburns Writer: darn - linden browser needs tabs!
Carl Metropolitan: This, BTW--was the funny one:
You: well I voted for it mainly as a principle -- we need an appeals system outside of G-team arbitrary rule
Carl Metropolitan:
http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-970
Saijanai Kuhn: Linden browser may go to Apple's Webkit
You: but the wording is silly and stupid
You: and they closed it anyway
Malburns Writer: Grr IntLibbr! This is not a "company town" - that is an employee thing not for customers/residents
You: oh that one yeah
You: that was hilarious
HeyAgain Guisse: It needs re-wording but expect to see it back on JIRA soon.
You: but that one is a political tract, not a JIRA
You: well reword it as a straight-forward appeals process
You: due process
Carl Metropolitan: "legalistic threats". Funny coming from Intlibber.
You: appeals of G-team behaviour
You: there used to be a way to do this!
You: back in the days before the stuff was automated
You: you used to be able to write to a certain address and appeal things
You: that was closed down tho
Tara Yeats: ombudsman
HeyAgain Guisse: Now everything is hand reviewed by Cyn Skyberg and her click.
You: I don't know Cyn at all, haven't dealt with her in years
You: I try to stay away from Lindens now
McCabe Maxsted: hm, looks like it was closed because it was a vague policy suggestion. Lindens have an annoying habit of pushing anything policywise out the window with a la la not listening
You: well McCabe I think it got closed for flaming too
Malburns Writer: our onlu power of lindens is that we are their "customers" and a tightly nit set of customers with a good deal of loyalty
You: but yeah, they used to not let policy issues go on the feature voter in the old days either
Wiz Nordberg: ok all, this has been interesting. i'll see you at the next one, thanks all.
You: well I think you could get a JIRA up that suggests restoring an appeals process
You: to another body besides the g-team
HeyAgain Guisse: All I know is, in order for real change to happen, Linden Lab needs serious competition. Remember how World of Warcraft killed EverQuest almost overnight?
Malburns Writer: but even they must realise that investors and development cannot ignor existing customer base based on hyperthetical future
You: do you feel they are being abusive?
You: thanks Wiz
Tara Yeats: cya Wiz
Wiz Nordberg: cya, thank you all again
Malburns Writer: See you Wiz - good to see you
Gwyneth Llewelyn is Offline
McCabe Maxsted: yeah, damn flamers. I've seen several good issues get pushed aside because the commenters couldn't keep the discussion on topic
You: well you have this gaggle of code kiddies that are hugely emotional, rigid in their views, and keep shutting proposals they hate and writing nasty shit everywhere
You: it really chases people away, if the complexities of the thing itself don't
You: I have one proposal to take feature proposals completely out of the JIRA
You: and revise it and put back the feature voter
McCabe Maxsted: I read that
You: only with yes/no votes, time-outs for proposals with less than 10 votes, interface to merge votes and proposals, etc
You: Torley has no interest in this; she is the dragon lady on this
You: she is the one who killed off the Feature Voter; she hates democracy, like Corey Linden did
You: Rob Linden is actually the only hope for the JIRA
McCabe Maxsted: I really wish they'd at least clarify their position in features, or had left hte feature voting tool open long enough for people to import issues
You: Rob does not mind there being debates
You: yes McCabe I find that an utter travesty
Saijanai Kuhn: must run all, take care
You: they destroyed user content
You: that is against the code of the True Linden
McCabe Maxsted: I went looking on archive.org for the feature voting tool but couldn't access it
You: they should be punished
HeyAgain Guisse: The Tao of Linden, Be transparent, just don't tell anybody about it.
Carl Metropolitan: Torley does not hate democracy. Torley hates people arguing. She does not get that the two are intimately connected, I believe.
Malburns Writer: i think "lab" philosophy still runs LL - business side needs "customer advisory board"
McCabe Maxsted: hehe, well they're being punished by some lost good ideas
You: Mal don't they have that tho with that SL Views thing?
You: that essentially makes an advisory board
You: they meet with them several times a year
Malburns Writer: maybe Prok
McCabe Maxsted: I wonder if anyone has proposed a "resident advisor to the board" the same way LJ has a resident advisor on all its policy decisions
HeyAgain Guisse: SL views is a fancy name for "Linden Lab hand picks the FIC day"
Malburns Writer: but are they known and can rewsidents approach them?
Carl Metropolitan: I want a free trip to San Francisco, too.
Malburns Writer: would they attend this for example
McCabe Maxsted: that might make a good actionable jira; what int's really needs is some strong steps and explanations so it can't be pushed aside by fears of policy
Malburns Writer: only ones i know of were more tech rrsidents than other users, but may be wrong
McCabe Maxsted: hey just because we're tech savvy doesn't make us deaf to ears of people who are not; otherwise there'd be no user interface field ;)
You: you know
You: my proposal to have a "tier paying representative on the board"
You: but have them ex officio
HeyAgain Guisse: Speaking of FIC, meeting a few Linden kids on battery street tonight for dinner. Take care.
Malburns Writer: No McCabe - didnt mean it that way - lol
You: or not able to vote or something
McCabe Maxsted: take care hey
You: that was a resident advisor basically
Carl Metropolitan: It is a good idea
Malburns Writer: meant that advisory should be wide interest focus
Tara Yeats: Cya Heyagain
You: hahaha there you go, as FIC as it gets!
Carl Metropolitan: That person should be elected from premium accounts.
HeyAgain Guisse: <3 take care Prok. ~Tizzers
You: yeah I realized that's Tizzers and will be sure to ban next time
Carl Metropolitan: By premium (and island) accounts, I mean
You: ugh
McCabe Maxsted: I don't know why it should matter if they're premium or not as long as they're a good representitive of sl; this whole divide between premium and free users is more intellectual than actual, especially if you look at who's doing the content creation
Carl Metropolitan: Well--if the rep is a "tier paying rep", then it does matter.
You: I finally got an answer from Zee Linden
Carl Metropolitan: But--define the rep as you like--a "resident rep" would work well too
You: I wrote to him asking the latest count of premiums
You: since they ceased publishing them
Carl Metropolitan: And he responded, "I like cheese"
McCabe Maxsted: I'd like to see a resident advisor from anywhere, or even a team of them. Hah, how lois it?
McCabe Maxsted: *how low
Shaun Altman is Offline
McCabe Maxsted: hahahaha
Malburns Writer: ASIDE - i saw 2 blogs today about free users being banned from log-in yeserday to "protect" stability for paying users
McCabe Maxsted: absolutely does not surprise me in the slightest
You: He said "premiums stopped growing because we lowered the stipend to less than the cost of the account"
You: (actually not true)
You: that is, they grew even after that, then slumped
You: so I said, but Zee
You: you have all this land you're glutting
You: so surely you have this big boom in premiums
You: silence
You: then like 40 minutes later
You: he writes "yes"
You: so I say, ok, so you should publish the numbers?
You: silence
You: Mal
You: I am thinking that is a hoax
You: you know why?
You: because I have gotten that screen, but only the top half
You: and I've been blocked out of SL repeatedly
You: and I pay
You: they are controlling log ons yees
You: but I actually think that could have been photoshopped
Malburns Writer: wondered - but saw two separate places and had screenshot (could be faked)
You: it sounds weird to me
You: but I saw that screen
You: and it had only the top part
You: about "due to the user experience blah blah"
You: and ssorry, you can't log on now
You: come back later
You: then like 20 minutes later I got on
BlueWall Slade: could that have something to do with the "blind test" they were talking about acouple of months ago?
You: that does not sound like something the4 Lindens would write
Hiram Razor is Offline
Tara Yeats: only time I"ve seen anything close was short-lived and clearly server problem-related
You: hmm maybe
LaPiscean Liberty: Thanks all for the very interesting conversations...very thought provoking. have to dioigest this now see yall laters
BlueWall Slade: or is that for new residents?
McCabe Maxsted: take care Lapiscean
Carl Metropolitan: I think it was for new signups only
McCabe Maxsted: the A/B testing is for orientation islands and the website, as I recall
BlueWall Slade: ok, that makes sense
McCabe Maxsted: don't know if it's expanded, but benjamin has talked about doing it for UI too which makes me excited :)
You: I sometimes think that they do harsh tests like that to see how much will people scream
McCabe Maxsted: haha
BlueWall Slade: well, this has been very interesting
McCabe Maxsted: well yeah prok, that's what they do
BlueWall Slade: and i think good, but i must run
McCabe Maxsted: if you know how loud people scream about something, you know not to do it anymore
You: Carl, you became an SLB Exhibitor
You: so you're in
You: I have had like 10 IMs from like 3 Lindens but they can't just say "be here at X oclock with a talk"
You: it's funny
Carl Metropolitan: Yes--we have been "in" since SignpostMarv was running it.
BlueWall Slade: so, good evening and take care :)
Malburns Writer: sent u pic via skype Prok
McCabe Maxsted: take care Blue :)
I saw not one Linden in the above chat so basically the meeting was pointless.
I'll see if I can scrounge up an interested association of content creators (who will be shocked at whats going on behind their backs) to start an open letter. Open letters don't really matter either. The only thing LL will recognize at this point is a subpoena or stay order anyway.
Posted by: Ann Otoole | June 14, 2008 at 12:19 AM
Even the DMCA contains an exception for reverse engineering--if, as you claim, reverse engineering is illegal, why would this be the case?
Posted by: Melissa Yeuxdoux | June 14, 2008 at 05:30 AM
I'm unsure what I did to get ejected, but this is the last thing Lalinda said before she was ejected (I was ejected moments later):
Lalinda Lovell: mcCabe lets be polite to Prok, this is her house after all
Posted by: Gareth Nelson | June 14, 2008 at 06:56 AM
You dared to disagree with Prok Gareth, then you dared to show up to a meeting to discuss various issues while using as few facts as possible.
Posted by: Solar Legion | June 14, 2008 at 07:47 AM
Lalinda is already a frequent-flyer event-disrupter, and here you can see her interrupting a dozen times to taunt about "knowing the birthday secret" et.
She's simply forgetting that I've seen her in other people's meetings being disruptive and eventually getting ejected from groups, and I had to eject her before from a meeting -- her memory is failing her. Gareth is also a disrupter, as I've seen on this blog many times. It's not about disagreeing. Virtually all the people in that meeting disgree with me and let me know about it and I don't care. And it's not about some code of conduct that has to be met.
It's about event-griefing and heckling that becomes so interruptive that the rest of the people can't talk. Event griefing is when you keep needling the host, deliberately harassing them, saying stupid things like "this is your house, guess we'll have to be good" a number of times, and then not being good at all, but heckling, deriding, deliberately saying stupid or provocative stuff.
When someone in a meeting around a serious conversation can't find anything better to do than heckle you, and then when you challenge their freakish literalism and obsessiveness, the accuse you of schizhophenia and paranoia, etc., then it's time for the eject button. Nobody raised an eyebrow, and even if they did, I wouldn't care. I wanted to talk about the topic with the other people there and here what people at least knowledgeabout about this stuff like Saijanai, and not garrulous fools, say something useful and thought-provoking.
The transcript tells the story.
Both Lalinda and Gareth belong to the aggressive autism liberation front, that starts from the premise that because they suffer from certain conditions, they get to inflict them deliberately and even maliciously on other people. Sorry, but I'm not playing.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | June 14, 2008 at 10:12 AM
"The transcript tells the story"
Indeed it does prok
Posted by: Gareth Nelson | June 14, 2008 at 11:37 AM
heh looking like some IP protection has finally happened now eh? and ZOMG it involved OH NOES the purity of SCRIPTS!
"all your content are belong to us" types everywhere must be recoiling in horror at the thought of a script ripper, a member of the "used to drive a submarine" protectorate, being chosen as the first to be subjected to Justice.
(Note: I like scripters. They are generally really smart (a necessity for efficient scripting). I don't care much for people who think they are entitled to something that they are not entitled to.)
Posted by: Ann Otoole | June 14, 2008 at 06:05 PM
The last time I was at a Sutherland Dam soiree, my hair disappeared when I detached it to test the Avatar Rendering Count. It didn't turn up in my inventory like it was supposed to. It wasn't Dropped and left behind (which would have been surprising because it was no-build land for me.) The various offical reccomendations for recovering inventory didn't work (not that I expected them to work.) My prim hair was gone. The creator left SL, but luckily copies of that particular item were still on sale by third parties (hopefully legitimate ones.)
Just thought I would share that with everyone :-)
Posted by: Tammy Nowotny | June 14, 2008 at 07:58 PM