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« Search Me! | Main | The Geek Religion »

June 01, 2008

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Cocoanut Koala

You hit this nail on the head.

coco

HBA

Well said - my take is if they don't like it, fuck 'em.

People will always throw whatever they can at those they don't like - best thing to do is 'out' them as intolerant jerks in public, the one place they hate their masks to slip. If someone can't argue a point without resorting to cheap shots, then the arguement is null and void.

Nicholaz Beresford

Well, if people dislike (or outright hate) a standpoint, they will be quick to try to devalue the person making it, especially when they run out of good arguments on the issue itself.

I don't think it's related to x-gender. That's just one of the easiest things to shoot at, because most people think it's weird, so bringing it up is a surefire way to get agreement from the crowd.

If you weren't transgender, you'd get other abuse, probably sexist (and you sure are seeing a lot of that too). If you were a guy, people would tell you that you're gay or a sweaty ugly fat guy sitting in the basement on your computer 24h and that you never had been laid (the latter incidentally also being sexist).

Point is, if people like or adore you, there is no reason to devalue you.

If they don't, they'll pick anything from the bottom of their their own system of values and try to stick it on you.


Gareth Nelson

Wow, I remember this:
[2007/11/09 19:49] Prokofy Neva: boys dressed as girls
[2007/11/09 19:49] Prokofy Neva: came and harassed the meeting

As to the rest of your comments, quite accurate - just thought i'd point out your hypocrisy.

Gareth Nelson

Oh by the way, this bit here is pure and simple libel:
[2007/11/09 19:50] Prokofy Neva: Gareth said that he himelf created the Open Sim
[2007/11/09 19:50] Prokofy Neva: but I have a feeling that's not the case

I never stated I created opensim, Michael Wright did and I never said otherwise.
Read the logs that you posted yourself:
http://slcitizenrecord.typepad.com/sl_citizen_record/2007/11/who-is-that-man.html

Prokofy Neva

Nothing hypocritical about pointing out that boys dressed as girls harassed the meeting -- they did.

Um, there's no "libel" anywhere. "Libel" would be if something was said that was a) untrue b) known to be true and asserted as true with deliberate malice c) not about a public figure and d) damaging livlihood. So I hardly think anything I said met the test.

And more to the point, all I did there was echo back your own words. I have no knowledge or opinion of the matter, but merely reiterated what was said -- so perhaps you said something misleading?

John Lopez

Reading comprehension time!

"Gareth Ellison: Michael Wright first created opensim, I first created the grid servers for it and setup border crossing"

If that is misleading to you, it explains many of your posts that have had similar confusion in them.

Gareth Nelson

"Michael Wright first created opensim" is not exactly unclear on who first created opensim. I created the grid servers, not opensim itself.

What's hypocritical about you pointing out "boys dressed as girls" is that you decided to bring out the transgender matter when it wasn't relevant (besides the point that I was the only male in a female avatar of the pair, and we did not exactly "harrass").

Prokofy Neva

Uh, no, John, I don't have any "confusion" about these issues. It's definitely not the point here, and Gareth just has a bug up his ass, that's all, and is jamming on this technicality.

Gareth, it may seem like a big distinction to you, that one guy "created" OpenSim (programmed it? coded it?) and you yourself "only" "created the grid servers and border crossings". But to me, they amount to the same thing, "create" is used in both cases, and they seem equally important.

More to the point, the reason I even reiterated what you said, if technically misstating it, was for this reason:

You are a biased party.

Your recipes for how opensourcing of SL should work are biased.

You've already essentially "reverse engineered" or "made by analogy" something like SL based on a principle that from everything I can see, does *not* have a permissions set for content or an economy with buy/sell functions, correct?

So you have your take on this, and it's not one leaning towards the problems of protecting permissions regimes -- correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not hearing it.

Your inability to see the larger issue here, and your harping on technicalities of "what was created" when you yourself used the word "created" *too* (what, grid servers aren't essential for customers to have a piece of this world?!), reminds me what I left out of my "Geek Religion" list -- literalism.

Again, my point in mentioning you relationship to OpenSim, whether you are creator or janitor or coffee boy, is merely to say *that you have a relationship and are a biased party in that discussion*. You're going to praise OpenSim and its works and expect others to follow suit.

I didn't even notice that you were a male in a female avatar, as it was a crowded meeting and I have nil visibility with my game now. I seriously didn't even look at your avatar or profile -- it was simply too laggy and poorly visible.

The remark about the "boys dressed as girls" referred to other avatars, not you. And they did harass, and there is nothing more aggressive and vicious than males who do that, quite frankly.

Gareth Nelson

"You've already essentially "reverse engineered" or "made by analogy" something like SL based on a principle that from everything I can see, does *not* have a permissions set for content or an economy with buy/sell functions, correct?"

This is incorrect, I was around in the early days and was kicked off the project due to some licensing paranoia - quite simply I read the GPLed viewer source and Adam disliked this. I had nothing to do with the later active decision not to support L$ in the main core of opensim. When I was around, permissions and L$ had simply not yet been implemented, and

Yes I support the open sourcing of the SL servers. I do not however support the use of open-sourced servers (or any other technology) for piracy.

"You're going to praise OpenSim and its works and expect others to follow suit."
Actually, I can't stand the way opensim is going for multiple reasons. For your benefit i'll cut out the technical criticisms I have of the project as it is today and say these points:

1 - licensing paranoia - anyone who ever reads the viewer source is now prohibited from contributing to opensim

2 - you won't believe me here, but I agree with you that treating economy and permissions as a side issue is stupid at least

As to the question of "boys dressed as girls" - I was not around when you made the remark and only read the logs. If my judgement of the remark based on the surrounding context is flawed then I apologise, though it does seem to stink of hypocrisy - if someone was harrassing the meeting, it's the harrassment that matters - not a mismatch of their RL and SL gender.

Prokofy Neva

Gareth, you are mired in techicalities again, and not hearing the larger point again because you're in the weeds with your own dramas.

1. By gassing on about how you "created" the servers, you tied yourself to OpenSim. Internal critic or not, you pointed up your affiliation.

2. Therefore you are an interested party.

3. Therefore you are a problem, as far as the issue of permissions for content are concerned, since extremists in this camp, including Adam himself, do not want permissions or an economy. Only Zha Ewry has sounded some moderate notes (in the workshop at AW for example) saying that "signalling of intent" is a good thing. But others are harshing on content makers and telling them cynically to create a new business model, as if everybody has to be a clever zebra eating stone soup and putting out a tip jar or a consultant shingle based on obfuscuation.

If you agree with me, you weren't very vocal in that meeting.

No apology is required, and I don't feel there is anything hypocritical talking about these particular vicious gnats who are clearly boys dressed as girls combing the worst features of both stereotypical genders in their abusiveness.

Gareth Nelson

"tolerance of your status as transgender will directly hinge on whether your speech and are ideas are liked or not -- the minute there is a disagreement, out comes the ridicule and harassment and exposure -- your gender construct is viewed as "community-based" and the "community" (ugh) can withhold or proffer it as it sees fit"

Prokofy Neva

You seem to think that if someone *is* transgendered, they must forfeit their right to ever criticize, or comment upon, other transgendered persons, and must keep a "solidarity with the class" or "honour of the uniform" going. I realize that's how geeks think. I don't.

When transgendered behave badly, I say so, and comment that they are combining the worst stereotypical traits of each gender, aggressive/violent and bitchy/hysterical. BTW, if this person or persons was "trying to keep a cover" and I had some special knowledge of their real-life gender that no one else has or wasn't on their profile, you might have a case. I believe in keeping people's privacy and not commenting on their RL status. That's not the case here.

You continue to distract from the main issue in the conversation about how open source will grab all our stuff.

Gareth Nelson

Criticise all you want, criticise other SL-transgendered people all you want (I would treat this as seperate from RL transgenderism - for example I have no intention of getting breast implants and hormones). But then when you make a blog post complaining about how people will "only respect your gender" if your views are popular, you're a hypocrite when you yourself bring up the subject in an irrelevant context.

There is no need at all to mention gender when you're accusing someone of harrassment - the harrassment is the problem, not the person's gender identity or their avatar's gender.

Prokofy Neva

Gareth,

You are a touchy, hysterical, broken Internet kid. I don't know WHAT your problem really is here, but you seem to take issue with me even being present at your precious AWG meeting. Sorry, but if it is an open public meeting and not the secret cabal you wish it were, I come.

You don't agree with my critique of the open-source project -- which I view to be premature, unnecessary, really, and run by special interests who aren't disclosing their real agenda.

You're merely fishing around trying to find some "hyprokisy" as so many do who wish to attack me, trying to pick on some technicality.

I do not believe in exposing transgendered persons to make a point in an argument. When such persons repeatedly attack, harass, stalk, which is something I've experienced over and over again from a certain kind of male-to-female transgender, then I definitely call them out on what they're doing. That's the right thing to do.

It's not about their views being popular or unpopular. It's about them harassing me, repeatedly, as vicious manginas. I fight back when they do that. You have to -- some say you don't stoop to their level -- I say fight back just as viciously, and just as dirty as they do.

Then they don't bother you any more.

That's how Second Life works.

The gender in this case is at issue -- it's a marker of a certain kind of person who takes issue with me and goes out of their way to harass me and stalk me, repeatedly.

You're also making quite a bit out of two lines of texts, which basically say "boys dressed as girls harassed the meeting".

It's not the grand statement you seem to imagine repudiating all transgender activity.

You don't really care about transgender issues; you don't care about the rights and problems of transgenders. If you've blogged about this -- hey, educate me. You aren't about that. You're here merely to heckle me and try to find some inconsistency in what I'm saying in general simply because you have a bug up your ass.

What is that bug up your ass? That bug up your ass is that you don't think other people should criticize AWG or its works.

Sorry, but we'll be doing that.

Gareth Nelson

"You continue to distract from the main issue in the conversation about how open source will grab all our stuff."

just "lol"

Gareth Nelson

Prok - when did I give you the impression that I took issue with you being at the AWG meeting?

I must also laugh at "you don't care about transgender issues.... if you'be blogged about this...." - now you need to blog about a subject otherwise you don't care about it? I actually would place a bet stating I have had contact with many more RL transgendered individuals than you have. Hint, us "aspergers patients" have a much higher ratio of nonstandard sexuality and gender identities than the rest of the population.

Ann Otoole

Isn't the AWG held on a closed access sim? I.e.; the meeting is not open and You have to be granted permission to attend?

Gareth Nelson

Ann - you need to be in the group to attend, but the group itself is very simple to join - just IM Zha or Saijanai for an invite.

Prokofy Neva

Re: "Hint, us "aspergers patients" have a much higher ratio of nonstandard sexuality and gender identities than the rest of the population."


Sigh. Can you keep it to yourself? Because it was not the subject of the meeting.

It's also hardly a scientific statement, and I'm not aware of any citation to legitimate research on this -- but whatever, it's not so vital.

Here's the thing, Gareth, and sorry, but I'm going to be as blunt as I need to in order to get this across:

Is it a function of your condition -- i.e. perceiving slights where they are not intended, exaggerating the importance of some minor statements over others, not being able to grasp emotional nuances -- that you are going on and on and ON about this really trivial and non-central point of this meeting?

Is your constant taking of offense, incessant desire to correct very fine points about who did or did not make OpenSim, your constant literalist spins on half sentences, and obsessing about this topic way, way past the sell-by date a function of your condition as an Asperger's patient?

Or do you actually think that these issues as you have portrayed them have merits of their own, not clouded by your perceiving apparatus, which you'll admit is very distinct from others?

And are you in a position to be able to tell the difference?

I don't scare easily, Gareth. I don't get bullied by people who are "patients" with or without scare quotes. I ask this in all seriousness, because I'm tired of meeting after meeting after blog after forum being overthrown, bullied, and put into silence because an Aspie shows up with this kind of attitude, behaviour, and spin on things.

You want to be mainstreamed and play with the others? Be mainstreamed and play with the others. I'm telling you that a) your condition has hindered your perception of the reality of the conversation in this meeting or b) your continuing to hammer on things even if they are clarified for you repeatedly is a function of your condition.

Now that you've made me aware of the specifics of your condition, I don't feel the need to justify a goddamn thing to you, sorry. Am I supposed to make allowances for you and nod and humour you?

No, sorry, I won't be doing that.

Gareth Nelson

I mentioned the "aspergers patient" thing in reference to your statement on the SL herald about this subject, and the fact that to date I have not come across a single diagnosed aspie who when the subject is discussed is "plain" sexually - and i've met 100s by now.

As to the scare quotes, perhaps you should think about the reasoning for them as you're a "transgendered patient" or a "whiney blogger patient".

Prokofy Neva

Read up on the Internet, there is no demonstrated, proved connection between homosexuality or transgender and Aspergers.

Uh, let me suggest that the sample in SL is not a typical sample, quite possibly.

BTW, I don't see the name "Gareth Nelson" in the people list. What's up with that? Is there another name you are using in SL as an avatar or where you banned?

Gareth Nelson

Gareth Ellison is my SL name, Gareth Nelson is my real name.

As to sexuality and autism this is coming mainly from anecdotal evidence, though it's not a subject that lends itself to academic study that often, though I found the following studies:

Elevated rates of testosterone-related disorders in women with autism spectrum conditions.
Ingudomnukul E, Baron-Cohen S, Wheelwright S, Knickmeyer R.
Autism Research Centre, Department of Psychiatry, University of Cambridge,

"Compared to controls, significantly more women with ASC reported (a) hirsutism, (b) bisexuality or asexuality, (c) irregular menstrual cycle, (d) dysmenorrhea, (e) polycystic ovary syndrome, (f) severe acne, (g) epilepsy, (h) tomboyism, and (i) family history of ovarian, uterine, and prostate cancers, tumors, or growths."

Sexual behavior in high-functioning male adolescents and young adults with autism spectrum disorder.
Hellemans H, Colson K, Verbraeken C, Vermeiren R, Deboutte D.
University Center of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry Antwerp,
"Most subjects were reported to express sexual interest and to display some kind of sexual behavior. Knowledge of socio-sexual skills existed, but practical use was moderate. Masturbation was common. Many subjects were seeking physical contact with others. Half of the sample had experienced a relationship, while three were reported to have had sexual intercourse. The number of bisexual orientations appeared high"

Comorbidity of Asperger syndrome and gender identity disorder.
Kraemer B, Delsignore A, Gundelfinger R, Schnyder U, Hepp U.
Psychiatric Department, University Hospital, Culmannstrasse

"Against the background of recently emerging theories of cognitive male pattern underlying autism we present additional psychological assessments in order to discuss any possible interaction or discrimination between AS and GID. Whilst we explain GID as a secondary feature of AS, we examine the assumption of the necessity of treating GID in AS as a primary GID in accordance with international standards."

Social Behavior and Autism Traits in a Sex Chromosomal Disorder: Klinefelter (47XXY) Syndrome.
van Rijn S, Swaab H, Aleman A, Kahn RS.
Department of Experimental Psychology, Helmholtz Instituut

"Scores of 31 XXY men on the Scale for Interpersonal Behavior and the Autism Spectrum Questionnaire were compared to 24 and 20 control men respectively. XXY men reported increased distress during social interactions and less engagement in specific social behaviors. In the XXY group, levels of autism traits were significantly higher across all dimensions of the autism phenotype."

I was not able to find many direct studies of the incidence of nonstandard sexuality in the autistic community, though the anecdotal evidence is very high. Perhaps this is something that needs to be studied further.....

Prokofy Neva

"Gareth Nelson" is your real-life name, indicated in this interview:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2007/aug/07/health.medicineandhealth

And I can only reiterate strongly: your condition makes you misread situations and obsess about things that are not worth obsessing about, and take slights where none were intended, and literalize and pounce on discrepancies where none exist. There is a bigger picture here that has to do with the problem of intellectual property, and that's all there is to it.

I'm not interested in autism rights. I don't *believe in* the autism liberation front. I don't think you achieve the goal of rights by trying to bully and wrestle people in the mainstream away from their perception that certain behaviours and attitudes are atypical and not normal. I don't believe in falsely declaring the abnormal to be normal -- I think it's wrong, and I won't play along with it.

Prokofy Neva

If it needs to be studied further and you couldn't find it, and you admit your statement is anecdotal, then what the hell is your point, Gareth?

What does it have to do with the purpose of this meeting?

In any event, I really don't see any reason to continue this discussion.

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