NOTHING COMPARES 2 U

The comrades are coming...

Another very lively session of the Sutherland Dam Club -- and lots of chatter about the new Google Lively (see my Lively room below on the right), and some about interoperability.

The most earth-shattering event: we got Gwyneth Llewelyn to denounce AdamTM ZaiusTM's OpenSimulator as communism. She claimed she always had been critical of communism as a "social democrat".

Now that's a GASP!

Lots of funny meanders, and...wherein I learn that Sinead O'Connor was only covering Prince.

You: Hi
Vorren Voltaire: Hello
Vorren Voltaire: we are here a bit early. sounds like a good topic
You: yes it's at 6
Dehri Hyun: hello
Tara Yeats: Hi Prok, Dehri, Tammy
Tammy Nowotny: hello Tara
Tara Yeats: and everyone else
Elwood Abernathy: Hello All
Malburns Writer: Hi all !
LadyFarrah Giano: Hi everyone
Dehri Hyun: hi, Tara
Vorren Voltaire waves to the room
Tammy Nowotny: brb. I think I will reboot
Malburns Writer: Hi Scope
Scope Cleaver: Hiya malburns
Tara Yeats: Heya Scope
Scope Cleaver: Good evening Tara
Clubside Granville: Howdy katykiwi, long time no see...
katykiwi Moonflower: hi! :)
Malburns Writer: Ho Crap!
Clubside Granville: I'm installing Lively on my DSL-connected PC, but it looks to be the same thing as Playstation 3 Home
Malburns Writer: I can't even install it! grrr
katykiwi Moonflower: its pretty primitive and filled with kids
Malburns Writer: fave headline " Google Talks becomes cartoon!"
You: I made a room and put ads for my rentals in it
You: sorry
Clubside Granville: PS3 Home is in closed beta so few kids... the voice chat there is still broken and most features are missing
You: I put "visit the REAL Flamingo Court in Second Life"
katykiwi Moonflower: i dont think any of these new virtual worlds will compete with SL until there is the economic money making aspect
Scope Cleaver: ... and user created content... and persistence..
Clubside Granville: if I read Prok right competition isn't such as issue with even the Lindens seeing SL as "dying"
Clubside Granville: or did I read that wrong?
Sutherland Dam Tip Jar: Received donation of L$566 from Crap Mariner.
Malburns Writer: i think lively may be threat because is distraction and easy to use - take ppl's attention away from REAL virtual worlds and slow down progress
Crap Mariner: i did not find liverly easy to use. i found it confusing and very laggy
Vorren Voltaire: Lively might compete with There.com, but not SL.
Clubside Granville: Jack?
katykiwi Moonflower: i think the lindens are letting part of SL die with the focus placed on open source
Second Life: Your object 'Kool-Aid' has been returned to your inventory lost and found folder by Ravenglass Rentals from parcel 'That DAMMED Prokofy Sutherland Dam Club PUBLIC SPACES' at Sutherland 198, 2 due to parcel auto return.
Malburns Writer: has Clever Zebra colonised Livly yet anyone?
Clubside Granville: Zee Linden
Crap Mariner: but then, i tinkered with it 2 days. i'd assume they were gunning for an easier learning curve, but it wasn't obvious
katykiwi Moonflower: i dont think any linden would ever say that
Clubside Granville: Here was the link
Clubside Granville:
http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/07/08/second-life-virtual-world-expands-35-in-q2/
Clubside Granville: It was in Prok's article about Lively
Malburns Writer: he implied they are pitching Linden as service provider (add-on services) for open sims metaverse
Clubside Granville: Lively isn't compatible with Server 2003... lol
You: Lively is ok for what it is, it has some nice aspects but it's shallow and a bit clunky
Ash Marat: sl is to the metaverse era what netscape 1 was to the web
Malburns Writer: lively is not even compatible with my vista's quirks - lol
You: the idea of rooms and walking between rooms is this geek dream, but I have to say, when you have to be forced into that room, it's so shallow and constrictive
Malburns Writer: let alone Mac
You: I much prefer a contiguous earth
Crap Mariner: the guy who runs the server i'm on is thinking i've gone insane "nah, don't bring it back up. give it a sabbath rest."
You: hahaahha
Vorren Voltaire: is vista compatible with anything?
Tara Yeats: haha Crap
Crap Mariner: after getting 10 sms panic messages from fans, know what? screw em.
Malburns Writer: might be one day - when becomes OS (if)
Tara Yeats: Vorren - it's compatable with the imaginations of some Microserf geeks ;-)
You: I put in Google talk but...then I had no one to talk to so I gave up on it
Clubside Granville: Yes, contiguous earth should be a root concept of any virtual world
You: I guess it only works if you have gmail but I don't
Clubside Granville: otherwise each room is its own world
You: well it's not even a world, Clubside, it's like a bulletin board
You: Let me say since we're starting
You: that this meeting is ON THE RECORD which means the transcript goes on my blog
Crap Mariner: i suppose the elephant in the virtual room is "Can people fuck in Lively?"
You: so if you don't like the idea of your comments being in print, don't talk : )
Malburns Writer: i think they have realised the chat value of VW though - less concerned about rendering as yet
Crap Mariner: THAT will be the real competition with SL/LL
You: well Crap, I think if you position the Japanese lantern *just so* you can do a more or less passable rendition of the newbie-in-Dore-with-the-big-dick
You: I'm sure there are many other depths to be plumbed in Lively as well
Tara Yeats: hahaha Prok!
Malburns Writer: no fucking - but the biggest use so far is watching porn on YouTube it seems
Malburns Writer: communally of course
Clubside Granville: Malburns, it's like PS3 Home, though, after the chatting what do you do? nd therein lies the excitement on day one, adandonment on day two
Tara Yeats: I understand there were some rooms yesterday doing a brisk biz in X-rated videos... for cartoon avies
You: oh right you could do that but you have to keep replacing the YouTube, it plays one at a time and loops endlessly
Malburns Writer: agree Clubside from what i can tell
Tammy Nowotny: back!
You: It reminded me a bit of the Sims, you can very easily write comments on any object
You: so it's like a bulletin board, you could run a club, and people could leave messages for each other etc
You: you can hyperlink each object -- another geek dream
Clubside Granville: As I haven't been at one of these meetings in a while, for everyone in the know I was one of the people who constantly
Crap Mariner: necessity is the mother of invention
Malburns Writer: i am thinking it has use as instant conference room for lazy sods though - might have appeal that!
Clubside Granville: pressured the Lindens on voice chat,...
You: ok so you have a plate of bacon, you hyperlink it to a Yahoo article about health and food -- and...that's er, well, fulfilling I guess
Tammy Nowotny: if they cd turn GoogleEarth into a virtual world, they wd've had something!
You: one of the problem is that it has a hugely clunky menu for animations
Clubside Granville: coming from Xbox Live, voice chat seemed a no-brainer, but that was because you were gaming while chatting
You: each animation means a pulldown menu and a selection
Clubside Granville: not chatting for the sake of chatting
You: more clunky even than the Sims Online
Crap Mariner: i found myself instinctively trying tuse my spacenav in there.
You: yes Clubside people may use gaming as merely a thin veil over socializing, but they still need that thin veil
Vorren Voltaire: how about the custom content? how easy is it to create with Lively?
You: it's like the group objects in TSO, they are the glue
You: I'm just wondering where eveybody in TSO will go August 1
Crap Mariner: "Outside."
You: hahahaha
Elizabeth Spieler: I am from TSO
You: Me too
Crap Mariner: "To the gym"
Clubside Granville: Right Prok, so what's the thin veil in Lively? I could see Amazon touting such a service...
Tara Yeats: Vorren - youi can't create content at this point unless you're a Google FIC ;-)
Helena Whittlesea: what happens aug 1 prok, sorry i don't know. gosh, maybe i should.
Clubside Granville: chatting while browsing departments
You: yes you have to be Google FIC
You: GIC
Crap Mariner: Google FIC?
You: Elizabeth where do you think people will go from TSO?
Malburns Writer: it seems there is little there that weblins can't do except the visuals
Elizabeth Spieler: TSO closes jul 31
Elizabeth Spieler: prok a place called peacecity
Clubside Granville: Ah, I see lively follows the YouTube embedded whoring notion...
Malburns Writer: or the weblins rip-off metanomics are going to be promoting on Monday - forget name
Clubside Granville: I'm curious about what happened to all those SL-like competing worlds that were spring up two years ago
Tara Yeats: One interesting thing I noted when I created a room, which I thought I made private...
Tara Yeats: at Lively - some doofus stumbled in, and there was NO way for me to evict him
Tara Yeats: short of just pretending he wasn't there until he got bored and departed
Clubside Granville: Now the Lindens will need to make a Second Life room like you did Prok... drive traffic that way...
You: Pathfinder did
Crap Mariner: Path did
Malburns Writer: lol Tara - guess that puts paid to the confidential corporate enclaves then
Clubside Granville: already> dammmmn...
Elizabeth Spieler: so is SL set to be doomed to ?
You: I wonder how many people would come to my room, and then go to the trouble to press on a SLURL, then come to my SL hotel -- probably nobody
Dehri Hyun: i`m not getting, room?
Crap Mariner: I think it's a boon for SL, myself.
Tammy Nowotny: can we place adwords/adsense ads on our lively rooms?
You: I mean it's not effective, SLURLS are clunky
Tara Yeats: Yea, Club, I thought Crap had already been there - there was a pile of upside down couches in the middle of the room!
Tammy Nowotny: btw, click on prok's on her blog.
You: when their hyperlinks do more than show text and can show pictures or portals that might work
Crap Mariner: I couldn't figure out how to rez objects, let alone turn them upside down
Helena Whittlesea: shouldn't they be more concerned about KEEPING traffic/residents than driving more people here when there's such an apparently serious (lack of) retention problem?
You: ultimately I suppose they want to have the 3-d web to be like this giant co-ed dorm room
You: you have to put "move to room"
You: they can go outside
Malburns Writer: it may be a boon in raising the focus of what is possible with virtual environment
Ash Marat: sl user base and infrastructure will probably be sold off to someone capable and intereseted to do something significant with it
Clubside Granville: I'd tell ya Crap but Sever 2003 won't run Lively even though it has a compatible video card, accleration and DirectX 9... poor, ignored server!
Crap Mariner: But I think it's a good thing for SL. It will bleed off the cheap, impatient, and low-power computer users. A higher class of psychotic will stick it out in here.
You: hahahaah Crap
Malburns Writer: anything goggleised is gonna have big interest - good or bad
Helena Whittlesea: ha! here's hoping crap
Helena Whittlesea: lively appeals to me zero.
Crap Mariner: Has there been griefing in Lively yet?
Elwood Abernathy: Crap you mean a higher class of misfits?
Elizabeth Spieler: so no real learning takes place in virtual worlds?
Tara Yeats: true, Mal - I think it'll ultimately result in traffic headed SL's way
You: pretty soon I will be able to Make Money While Working At Home Surfing the Net
Ash Marat: ha
Malburns Writer: only reason i am upset cant install is want to register my identity to protect it from abuse or someone else getting it
Tammy Nowotny: those are good numbers. how many viditors do you geta day, I am wondering?
Malburns Writer: cant do without client installed
Clubside Granville: I know it's off-topic, but since I haven't been on much recently I'm only now getting the "different simulator version" notices... any time frame on Havok 4, new programming, etc?
Helena Whittlesea: hey prok then you make more money teaching other people how to do the same thing. interwebs amway!
Tara Yeats: Mal - it uses your existing Google ident
Malburns Writer: oh - ok Tara - i read it was best to register avie name quick because of surge
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Malburns: oh yes
Clubside Granville: It's pretty straight-forward if you are already a GMail/Googlr user, one download ... thiough you have to enter a room to create your own room
Elizabeth Spieler: An avatar called me a drug dealer for video games :shrugs:
Malburns Writer: Hi Gwyn - didnt see you there
Gwyneth Llewelyn is just lurking
Helena Whittlesea: so does that mean if you have a gmail/google username but do NOT want to use it for lively, no one else can use it as a lively username either?
You: What I find curious is that when you try to go into the room from my blog where I have it linked, you don't seem to have your own room, you are visiting your room looking at your avatar? I'm puzzled by how that's all working
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Strange.
Elwood Abernathy: Helena once you sign onto google with your goodle user name than you can make a distinct name for lively
Clubside Granville: Okay, okay, screw this, I'll install it right now on one of my other non-Server machines, let's see how long
You: Well Clubside since you are here and Gwyn is here
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The fun but is that you have actually THREE accounts:
You: I would like to go straight to the interoperability topic
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1) Google Account
Helena Whittlesea: yeah elwood --- i don't want to. that's my point. i'm not interested inlively at all. otoh, i wouldn't want someone using my SL username there.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2) Lively Account
You: I found the meeting that Saijani put together APPALLING
You: HARRIBLE
You: did you read the chat?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 3) Nickname (changeable) in Lively
Elwood Abernathy: I suppose they can do that Helena
You: It's on the wiki under Zero Linden's profile
Malburns Writer: exactly my though Helena
Tammy Nowotny: my RL self has one Google account although both my avi name and real name turn on Google Groups posts
You: basically, it was more of this perverse engineering stuff: "We're going to engineer for interoperability and add on IP protection later and we won't say how."
Helena Whittlesea: yeah -- ok, thanks. i thought from someone someone said here that to register at lively your username there had to be the same as a google/gmail username
You: my name was swiped on Lively as were other people's in SL, it's been griefed, I had to change to ProkofyN
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zha also said something hmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head*
You: you can make a user name
You: the avatar's name seems very changeable, not getting that yet either
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zha tended to say that you'd have "levels of IP" between grids
Tammy Nowotny: who is doing that, I wonder?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Prok: just click on your avatar, it should have an option there for Nickname
You: Gwyn, Zha said the other day to me that if I was not a coder that I could not comment on this matter.
Crap Mariner: I'm glad that nobody in their right mind wants this name.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Prok: really? lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn *shakes head*
You: I said that he wasn't a retailer or business manager and yet he felt he could rule the world
Elwood Abernathy: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh my.
You: he then accused me of wishing to rule the world simply because I challenged his arrogant ruling of the world
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I do respect Zha's opinions mostly. but... he's just a 'scientist' at the Big Blue, not even a manager
Crap Mariner raises an eyebrow.
You: Basically, I do not trust them in this enterprise because of how arrogant and high-handed they are
You: Zero was absolutely awful
Sutherland Dam Tip Jar: Received donation of L$300 from Elwood Abernathy.
You: he said "don't philosophize what the other grids might be like" -- he cut off all concerns and efforts to raise problematic things like the fact that opensimulator has NO ECONOMY and NO PERMISSIONS SYSTEMS
You: furthermore
You: when people did suggest solutions, like
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (for ideological reasons, remember — not technical ones)
You: "let's have keys, can you use keys"
You: or "let's try to get the graphics cards to have a solution, could we do that"
You: or "let's have obfuscation"
You: YOUR friend Morgaine Dinova was on hand
You: to say "Oh, no we aren't going over all that again, everything is copyable, so shut up"
Clubside Granville: Three minutes from download to creating and entering my own room for me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm sure she said "content should be free" or somehing like that :D
Malburns Writer: open sim is new - still pioneering - Zee wants it to devlop with Linden economy infact
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yes, it figures)
You: "get a different business model or, come to think of it, who needs capitalisM?"etc
You: Malburn your friend Zee is not in these discussions and I think his only concern is sell" products"
You: his business is intact
You: he is selling his products
You: that we may be threatened is immaterial to him
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "product" in this case meaning "interoperability"
Crap Mariner: Primarily, I see OpenSim interoperability as a way for content developers to have sandboxes running on their own servers. That includes corporate types. Then, they can hop into the public space with the materials.
You: yes Morgaine is a copyleftist freetard extroprian transhumanist etc
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and nothing else matters.
Malburns Writer: not friend - i am repeating answers i got other week is all and speculating
You: well I don't mean "friend" literally
Tammy Nowotny: they do have issues with paying vs. nonpaying members... as well as huans vs. bots
You: I mean in that ironic use of the term
Tammy Nowotny: *humans vs. bots
You: Zee says he wants to have the economy
Malburns Writer: lol Prok
Clubside Granville: But how can OpenSim run there own economy Crap, where will the trust come from? And PayPal is no solution for microtransactions
You: but in these meetings, Zero shuts down all interventions, debates, queries, concerns
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Crap: that's what will make sense on "stage 1" since running a whole grid is not something done lightly :)
You: he waves a wand and says "we will take care of this"
You: but he does not *do the engineering for this today, now, right away*
You: it's in reverse, or not sequenced
Tammy Nowotny: the Linden dollar is one of the few things on SL which works well
Clubside Granville: I haven't asked Adam Zaius about his plans for economy, I wonder what he'd say...
You: it's like "let's build the bridge to the other worlds quick before somebody else does and then let's worry if somebody can flush all the content out of SL into the metaverse for free later, because well it's hard, but hey, we do CARE"
Tammy Nowotny: (although I do have the ****ing Loading... bug atm)
You: Adam Zaius does not have an economy.
You: There is no economy.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, Prok, I'm not defending LL's priorities here, but... I understand the "One step at the time" approach.
You: No buy sell interface
You: nothing
You: no permissions
You: he vaguely talks about adding on modules or having people add things on like TwoFish or PayPal later
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Adam doesn't support "economy" or "IP rights" for ideological reasons, and is quite open and blunt about it.
Crap Mariner: Paypal makes no sense with microtransactions, but you may see the development of company scrip
You: I'm glad you agree about that Gwyneth
You: here's a guy who made a million off IP rights and land value in SL
Crap Mariner: or company microcredits. S&H greenstamps. Frequent Flier Miles
You: and dumps it casually and goes and makes something utterly destructive of those concepts
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed.
You: that's why I find any grid he makes as automatically UNTRUSTWORTHY
Clubside Granville: Gov'ment cheese, Crap?
Helena Whittlesea: did someone say S&H greenstamps?!
You: it's so profoundly cynical and exploitative
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So if he covered it up saying: "sorry, guys, I can't do it because it's too hard".... well I could understand
Helena Whittlesea: commodoties anyone? i mean.. er.... the other kind of commodoties...
You: Wow, I still have some old books of those, are they worth anything? I need a new blender.
Helena Whittlesea: ebay prok! ebay!
Crap Mariner: There's already systems in palce for people to put value attached to email so that high value email gets higher priority in a corporate inbox. The same microcredit could be used for a company's alternate grid/opensim
You: Gosh, I used to spend hours pasting those things
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wouldn't call him cynical, Prok. He *is* deliberately creating a non-economic OpenSim, and quite open (pun intended) about his political motivations for doing so.
You: I think we got a lamp and a toaster once.
Tara Yeats: LOL - I remember those days Prok!
Crap Mariner: helena - yes, i said S&H greenstamps. easier to use a working model of the past than to invent a whole new logic
You: well his political motivation is called..what?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Communism?
Clubside Granville: How much media attention did Google try to whore out for Lively's launch?
Helena Whittlesea: sometimes crap, yeah
You: I arrive at this position from a) observance of his websites and b) hearing him talk and destroying these notions
Tammy Nowotny: I still have some of the blue fake delft plates my mom bought with green stamps in 1964
You: how did you arrive at this?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Clubside: a few
You: THOSE WERE FAKE??????
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Helena Whittlesea: hah!
bo Goff: hi edloe
Tara Yeats: probably had "made in Japan" stamped on the bottom
Clubside Granville: I didn't see it mentioned on any of the gaming sites (unlike PS3 Home), I sorta stumbled on it...
Crap Mariner: I'm not sure I would call it outright communism, but a shared artist sketchpad.
Clubside Granville: Maybe it's not ready for prime-time so it's premature to see where they are headed?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmmh
You: Gwyn, I'm in shock.
Tammy Nowotny: well they are good plates
You: Where's my smelling salts.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The RL artists I know are quite greedy, Crap ;)
Crap Mariner: but it is clearly beta software, not ready for prime time
You: YOU calling something communist?
Helena Whittlesea: vapors!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Prok
bo Goff: whats the deal here
Tara Yeats: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: no vapours, but there are enough cloudies around
You: well I view it as new cyber communism yes
Tara Yeats: this is a landmark: Prok speechless
Helena Whittlesea: wow gwyn really? hmm... maybe they're "artists"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: also, prok, you should know that the social demcorats hate commies ;)
You: Oh I know, that's our only hope.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
You: They are selling the rope.
You: The entire thing of SL is about selling the rope, as Lenin said.
Helena Whittlesea: god help anybody whose only hope is the 'social democrats'.
Helena Whittlesea: er. just saying.
You: "Artists" -- meh.
You: well I mean in the war against communists
You: little else works
You: that's why commies loathe them so and say "social democracy is social fascism"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Helena: :)
Dehri Hyun: lol
You: sigh
You: anyway
You: He claims capitalism will be a module
You: that you ad on
You: on your sim, where you are free to ad on stuff
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "He" being Adam? Hmm :)
You: however the grid as such is not having any economy
You: so please, esplain
You: Lucy
You: how does our stuff transfer?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or would that be Zha?... Zha sort of suggested that modularity, eg. "economy" module, "IP rights module", etc
You: Zha tries to put out more moderate or modulating statements yet
You: yes he does but he has no engineering to go with it
You: he waves the concerns away
You: both he and Zero and other Lindens say, "Oh, we didn't port any skins or inventory or anything"
You: and my point about all that is: but you could
You: they did NOT but they could; there is nothing to stop them but political will
Clubside Granville: How "open" is the source at the moment though, Prok? Havok is a commercial product, it's hard to believe OpenSim could be running the newest root server modules...
You: there's nothing to stop any Linden from opening up his inventory and clicking it all off to be full permissions
Clubside Granville: Won't it already be woefully behinf when and if all the simulators are upgraded?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: They might not have Havok at all at IBM...
Helena Whittlesea: well gosh prok, what about integrity? shouldn't that stop them? you know.... in theory?!
You: Has it stopped them yet?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Helena Whittlesea: i said IN THEORY!
You: IBM cares about getting everything connected so they can be the Cisco of Virtual Worlds since Cisco isn't really working on this from what we can tell
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think we're really at the very very early stages
Helena Whittlesea: not 'as established by precedent'. heh
Clubside Granville: Without Havok Gwen they'll need some physics engine and that is such a core piece its hard to belive it could be parallel developed against other
Crap Mariner: Perhaps an additional flag for inventory would be developed. Sort of a "Duty Free" flag for the "customs agents" between the grids to determine what can pass and what can't?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: they're happy that *something* works.
Clubside Granville: simulator features
You: Crap the flag idea is constantly discussed
You: indeed Saijanai had a JIRA about it
Malburns Writer: did anyone read the eric reuters piece earlier?
Dehri Hyun: and Mono?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Crap, yes, that's likely — tagging your items saying what requirements you have for them to cross grids.
You: then that prompted a furious JIRA war
You: and then Saijanai closed his JIRA
Clubside Granville: No the flag issue again, Prok! I'll keep my mouth shut!
You: then everybody clamoured for a Linden Political Statement
Tammy Nowotny: not yet
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Clubside
You: and we got one
Crap Mariner wonders when rival JIRAs will be build and interoperability happens between them
You: in the form of Hamilton saying, "Don't worry we will be VEWWWY CAWWWFUW"
You: I can't help thinking of like Road Runner or Lucy and the football and Charlie Brown
You: something doesn't add up
Clubside Granville: JIRA is funny, such a bad piece of software, but it's open source so the Love Machine can
You: ok too many Saturday morning cartoons
Clubside Granville: continue to love itself rather than produce code!
You: JIRA is a horror
Malburns Writer:
http://secondlife.reuters.com
- though was interesting if short summary
You: it's a place where I'm not banned -- yet
Helena Whittlesea: they need a JIRA entry about JIRA
Malburns Writer: reuters sorry
Tammy Nowotny: our JIRA is a lively forum...
You: I have a JIRA about retiring the JIRA
You: saying it is ineffective for features
Tammy Nowotny: even if the interface is clunky
Helena Whittlesea: oh gosh where do i sign it? nevermind. i'd rather not wade through it.
You: Lindens only pay attention to that
You: to the JIRA things
You: they do not pay attention to anything not in a JIRA these days
You: that's why I bother
Clubside Granville: That's the problem Tammy, coders with no design experience creating front-ends
You: but the people running it are of course abysmally controlling and horrible
Clubside Granville: It's a hooror we live with particularly on the web
Ash Marat: forget experience. the conversation is all about technology and ollars. it's hilarious.
Helena Whittlesea: well, coders code. to be fair.
You: well Clubside I don't know if you read this fascinating serious of comments from Jimmy Dell on my blog
You: Gwyn you should also see them
You: he basically said: "Engineers who do not work to a set of business requirements are incompetents who should be fired:
Helena Whittlesea: i haven't noticed that anyone at LL seems concerned about good design. to be quite frank.
Tammy Nowotny: I met a JIRA fussbudget, Ella McMahon, today... the woman who keeps referring us to supprt knowledgebase articles
You: first business requirements, then engineering
You: but the Lindens love to just engineer out in the desert
You: they are Burning Man engineers
Ash Marat: first user requirements.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes :)
You: engineering for the sake of engineering
You: they are like Oppenheimer with the bomb
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that's exactly what they are hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Alas, this is changing though.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or so claims Robin
Clubside Granville: It's a long running issue... at my company we're dealing with textbook writers trying to design and not understanding basic tenets like
Clubside Granville: color choice and alignment
You: if we complain about the nuclear weapons being misused on Japan, then we're FUDded, we're against progress, etc
You: Gwyn, Robin may say it's changing but...it isn't
You: they are allowed to run this
You: Robin is nowhere near it
Tammy Nowotny: textbooks are an obsolete technology..... codex books are great, but not for textbooks
Helena Whittlesea: robin doesn't seem very bright to me.
Tammy Nowotny: (but I digress...)
You: Oh, she's very bright
Helena Whittlesea: er.. i hope i don't get kicked off the grid or something for saying.
You: she doesn't always comment in her office hours but she's one of the few adults running the place, believe me
Helena Whittlesea: yeah? guess i haven't had the privilege of seeing any evidence of it.
Clubside Granville: Well Tammy, these are online textbooks for my education system... but just like print, you need designers to take concepts and text and
Helena Whittlesea: adult doesn't mean she has any brains when it gets right down to it.
Clubside Granville: design something both readable and pleasing to the eye
Clubside Granville: Just like interface building
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, helena, but Prok is totally right on that
You: Well I think she doesn't always say a lot but she's fairly observant and has handled a lot of bad situations for the Lab
You: What can be done?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The problem is that the few "business Lindens" are not strong enough to get their share of resources.
Helena Whittlesea: i'll believe it when i experience for myself, gwyn : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe ok, Helena
Helena Whittlesea: i've observed her interaction in a couple of office hours. profoundly unimpressed.
Clubside Granville: Are we getting the option to turn off Windlight soon? it really screws "View Land Owners"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Look, you can have the best person on the job,
Tammy Nowotny: mmm hmmm... I see what you mean, Clubisde... and I bet the textbook writers don't do your typesetting for traditional books
Helena Whittlesea: but they don't gwyn
You: yes Gwyn the few business Lindens a) don't have control over the code cave and b) don't really have a reason not to let the code cave go on doing what they need to do
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but if you don't commit to a budget and resources to her... she'll be seen as "doing little"
Helena Whittlesea: you can stop right there.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly Prok
Ash Marat: or sense or responsibility or meaningful presence. she may be just bright enough to keep quiet and let the inmates run around. nurse ratchet! heh.
You: they aren't going to replace 50 coders and start over when they have this kind of spaghetti code
Tara Yeats: good point, Gwyn
Helena Whittlesea: does anyone here really think LL has 'the best person' in place for... well... just about ANY job?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: M Linden might be ok.
Clubside Granville: You're right about that Tammy. I see no reason a writer can't learn CSS, but in practice... lol
Tara Yeats: good point (sheesh.... lovely typing)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Robin certainly is — when they allow her :)
You: Helena, Guy Linden is perfectly placed in land management.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Tara
Helena Whittlesea: sorry, i'm not real up on the polite PC chitchat aspect of things, just speaking as an ordinary resident. well, kind of ordinary.
You: there are some yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And yes, there certainly are a few.
Clubside Granville: Prok, Guy is great, but no longer as accessible as when they had that land issue forum
Helena Whittlesea: i don't interact much in 'land mgmt' prok so i don't 'have that experience --- most residents dont'. those hoping to make $$$$ (real ones) here care a lot about such things.
You: Robin strikes me as being elevated and not in touch with daily operations as much
Clubside Granville: I've got two Gov Linden 16m2 in Bella in desparate need of selling or just terrain changes
You: that's inevitable, she now has all these people like Jack or Cyn who run that and they report to her but in their culture, people have huge latitude to manage their sectors
Clubside Granville: No word in two week
You: and that's why nobody is traipsing across Zero's back yard
Crap Mariner: I know you think he's a nut, but Torley is well-placed as an evangelist and tutorial developer. And he's tonight down a bit with the branded videos.
Crap Mariner: toning it down
You: well Torley -- no comment
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Crap: oh yes. That's our Torley :)
Clubside Granville: lol
Tammy Nowotny: (I may have a JIRA about the auctions.)
Tara Yeats: Prok - I wonder where the notion of "collaboration" is in that whole picture.
You: What can be done about this?
Helena Whittlesea: lalalalalalalalala
You: How do you mean Tara?
You: I mean, we can try going to Zero's office hours, but it's hopeless
You: they have all these code kiddies and freaks and IBM geeks and it's impossible
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd go to *M's* office hours.
You: they heckle you, Zero himself acts like an insolent teenager if you counter him.
You: there aren't any M office hours
You: I asked about that and Robin said, what, have the CEO have office hours?!
Clubside Granville: When I talked to Robin on the phone long ago as I said Prok she seemed regular middle management, concerned but "not in the know"
You: and I said, well, Philip used to...
Malburns Writer: yes - need M office hours
Tara Yeats: Prok - in the sense of teams that include NON-coders who have a big picture view from different directions and are in some way stakeholders
You: Well I saw her recently in New York when she came to a conference and I pestered her with the whole menu of issues.
Tara Yeats: i.e., part of that "do the business plan first" before the coders run amok
You: I think she was very concerned about the land value mainland stuff and was regularly dealing with Jack about it
You: She implied that M Linden being there was a good thing for management
You: on some things I didn't find her that clued in, for example, I had to explain what "business in a box" is
You: but you know, part of the problem with all this
Crap Mariner: M office hours would be a vote of confidence against the core "war cabinet" of executives/managers. it's saying "i want to hear directly from the customers instead of trusting your reports on them"
You: until interested parties organize and meet and frame agendas with the same vigour that those AW Groupies do NOTHING will happen
Clubside Granville: If you remember my talk was about rewriting the Voting engine which I had done in a day... both she and Phil were happy
You: and right now, they can organize because they are patted on the head by Zero furiously
You: and Zha
Clubside Granville: but my using professional tools rather than whatever's free meant it went nowhere
Malburns Writer: hmm - see that Crap true
Tara Yeats: Crap - I agree - I'd love to see M Linden office hours
You: in a way, though, they are a showcase, a storefront, the real action happens without people like Gareth
Crap Mariner: CEO = manager of managers. when a CEO rolls up his sleeves and directs the lower ranks or deals with the customers directly, something has failed.
Helena Whittlesea: hey - hi orange!
Ash Marat: i'd take demonstrable competence over accessibility. i don't need to see office hours.
You: Clubside, what do you think of the issue of obfuscation?
Helena Whittlesea: for real!
You: Ash that's a good point
Clubside Granville: Except, Crap, when you have micro-managing egomaniacs as CEOs
Orange Montagne: hi all, cant see anyone yet
Clubside Granville: Prok, what context?
You: You know I will say this about M: he's the first Linden that has written us a letter -- we've written gadzillion letters, manifestos, open petitions, etc. etc. and finally, one of them has answered directly!
You: lol
Helena Whittlesea: office hours seem like an attempt to placate the masses. which aren't really the masses, after all, but a handful (comparatively) of people with their own agenda. it's an appearance of interest. how much they really listen and are interested is evident everywhere and every time that is NOT 'office hours'
Malburns Writer: Hi Orange
Orange Montagne: ty
You: I found what he said in his letter to be plasticine nonsense however
Gwyneth Llewelyn: true, Prok :)
You: I will be blogging it
Orange Montagne: hi malburns
Orange Montagne: ty gwyn
Ash Marat: right, hel, exactly
You: Helena, that's why I boycott office hours now
You: they are painful
You: they have the same lifers like Squirrel Nutkin or WTF his name is
Tammy Nowotny: I just hope his Big However Many Are Left accounting background means the billing system can be fixed
You: the same nuts literaly
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Give him a few more years, prok, he's still getting used to the double culture of SL — the Tao of Linden at LL, and the resident's own culture.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hard to figure that out in just a few months!
You: Gwyn, I bet you he will not be staying
You: that's my take on it
You: I bet you he will be out by next year
Gwyneth Llewelyn: DO you think so?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh. That would be very bad.
You: he's an interrim until they sort out exactly how IBM or whatever takes them over
Helena Whittlesea: maybe he'll head over to lively.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (lol Helena!)
You: and they become an educational server farm or whatever they need to do
Ash Marat: the 'double culture' seems to be incompetence disguised as some kind of mystique.
You: hahaha Ash
Helena Whittlesea: my thought too AM!
You: I went to Jack's office hour the other day out of sheer exasperation
Helena Whittlesea: you're not joking, i think, and me either.
Malburns Writer: interesting way of looking at it Ash - lol
You: I had never been to a single one, it's usually at a time I'm at work
You: but I made a point to come to it and sound off
You: and it was AWFUL
Gwyneth Llewelyn smiles at Ash :)
You: Basically, he just says over and over, platitudes, like "We're aware of the ad farms and we'll be working on that"
Ash Marat: it's classic IT geek stuff though, not unique to LL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: See Google :D
Helena Whittlesea: yeah except a lot of classic IT geek stuff actually works like it's supposed to.
Gwyneth Llewelyn *snickers*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Helena, SL is anything but "classic"
Tara Yeats: Prok - what would you have preferred to hear him say?
Crap Mariner: I would prefer they use the Potter Stewart method of determining the merits of an ad farm.
Clubside Granville: ack... ad farms... we seems safer in the ancient sims, I guess nobody goes there any more so we're safer now...
Ash Marat: right hel, in some environments that kind of bogus mystique and ambiguity isn't allowed to stand
Helena Whittlesea: eh, it's classic in several ways. some of this stuff is not rocket science. some of it is apparently a lot more difficult than rocket science.
You: what is that Crap
Crap Mariner: "What is pornography?" "I know it when I see it."
You: Tara, have who say?
Helena Whittlesea: crap what's the difference between porn and erotic? lighting.
Helena Whittlesea: : )
Tammy Nowotny: well, I just bought land in an old sim I have ad farms on every side... no one but me has seen them in months, I think
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)))
Clubside Granville: What would receive obfuscation Prok? Items? Scripts?
Vorren Voltaire: the soundtrack mostly
You: me too Tammy
You: the viewer
You: to protect textures
You: scripts are hidden server side and are less of a problem
Crap Mariner: Some of it's obvious. What is not obvious is when it stops being obvious and becomes a judgement call.
You: the problem is the streaming through the viewer
Clubside Granville: How about creator, or owner? Would you obfuscate those? Dimensions? The slippery slope of the "mod" item...
You: Crap, you can have some very easy occam's razors: when it appears with more than one plot per sim; when it is porn in PG; when it is links to malware sites on the Internet; when it is set to extortionist prices, etc. Not as hard as you think.
You: Clubside read the SL Dev list last month or my blog coverage of this issue
Tara Yeats: Prok: Jack at the office hrs session you sent to
Dehri Hyun: Prok: i don`t know if that will work
Clubside Granville: Okay, will do
You: basicalyl some people said that some obfuscation is practical and doesn't cause lag, they were some of the sort of moderate programmers on the list; others who are hysterical ideologues like Gigs Taggart were saying, "Let's get rid of the permissions system because it's a joke"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Obfuscation is not a replacement for security... it's just a 'patch' when the alternative is too obvious (ie. plain text)
Clubside Granville: Do you remember the title of the post?
Dehri Hyun: some years ago came out a software to extract 3D meshes from what ever appeared in opengl
You: well I don't look for 100 percent I look for 60 percent
Dehri Hyun: was mostly for get stuff from 3D games
You: this 0/1 mentality is a killer
Tammy Nowotny: some familar but never seen avis appeared in the transwript of Jack's office hours
Dehri Hyun: was a beta then
You: I look for 30 percent, in a world where theft is a norm
Dehri Hyun: i have no idea about how it is now
You: you mean like Chrischun
Dehri Hyun: textures cane be extracted rom that
You: yes he and Ancient have been coming to office hours spinning a total line of bull lately, amazing
Clubside Granville: Textures are a problem Prok because of local cache
Tammy Nowotny: and Austin Halard.. who is not even paying member though obviously he is someone's alt
Helena Whittlesea: prok why don't you hold office hours?
You: glintercept is obvious going to overcome these things yes
You: well I have this meeting at a time when I'm home
Dehri Hyun: there´s also secon inventory, copybot and whatever
You: Yes I realize Clubside, there are problems -- and yet people posed solutions
Tammy Nowotny: GnuSense Shepherd is another famous extortionist who rarely appears in public who was there
Helena Whittlesea: i read your blog as often as i can (one of the sharper ones out there, SLwise)... but it's hard to keep up with a lot of the 'insider' jargon if i can't read every single day
You: it wasn't this all or nothing situation
You: GnuSense yes -- appalling
Dehri Hyun: and whatever ppl that know scripting can do
You: Nuisance GnuSense
Dehri Hyun: and they really are already doing it
You: Look the whole point of having some kind of key regimen or obfuscation is to set a bar, such that when it is crossed, you can say "texture theft" and prosectue
Clubside Granville: I guess the baby barons are less of a nuisance with land prices being deflated?
You: if you don't close the door, the horse isn't stolen, it merely ran away
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Crap Mariner: baby barons?
Helena Whittlesea: baby barons? gosh, is that legal?!
Clubside Granville: Just like with CopyBot, as long as items can be "mod" (and usually they need to be to some extent) tech can be used to copy
Dehri Hyun: second inventory is to have a backup of your SL inventory in your HDD
Dehri Hyun: copybot 2.0 seems to be a real mess
Clubside Granville: lol... the land barons of lesser nom (baby barons)
Dehri Hyun: real mess*for copyrights
You: You know all the geeks on places like Techcrunch slammed "Kindle" -- and yet....it sold out....lots of people love it...it is selling the books like hotcakes...and next year companies like Harper Collins will have 90 percent of their offerings in electronic form, and they encrypt them, and they don't listen to Adam Zaius or Morgaine Dinova or Gigs Taggart. They encrypt; they sell; they make Kindle. And Mike Arrington and whomever else can go on fuming but normal people buy it.
Malburns Writer: second inventory now comes with some open-sim installs for export purposes
Crap Mariner: oh. ok. idiots-in-chief.
Tammy Nowotny: I almost broke the US$195/mo barrier buit I sold some parcels which ahs been sitting there for months
You: Zha swears to me solemnly that nothing will ever be unlawfully copied in Second Inventory
Tammy Nowotny: so I am still just a baby baron
You: hand on heart
You: of course I don't buy that
Clubside Granville: Prok, another good example is Amazon MP3... they're set to overtake iTunes... why: no DRM, people will pay for freedom
Clubside Granville: If you can't pay, you steal...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Tammy Nowotny: iTunes is mostly DRM free too... and you can import any old MP3 INTO iTunes
Helena Whittlesea: most people who steal are able to pay clubside, don't you think? in these contexts.
You: well Clubside, how do you see that working?
Crap Mariner: podcasts and podsafe music network... essentially free content there.
You: Crap, they live off VC cash and ads, you know that
Clubside Granville: I was just talking in terms of Kindle... people have proven to pay for things people are afraid of having stolen if delivered fairly
You: there is this illusion of the Clever Zebra model working to sustain entire economies
Crap Mariner: Just the A-listers, which are few and far between
You: you know when you actually read The Long Tail
You: it's nowhere near as wacky as when it is quoted selectively
You: and Chris Anderson says very clearly about the long tail
You: that it will represent a sliding scale along which you will find absolutely free user made content that is just a hobby and free, etc. and proprietary businesses
You: and both can be on it and both WILL be on it
Crap Mariner: They'll become the Ham Radio operators of the future when the major media players crush them too
You: and this idea that it will all be Freetardia is not upheld
You: and nobody accuses him of being "RIAA" and "Disney" blah blah
You: of course, his book is for sale in Barnes and Nobles with a pricetag, and copyright, not put up on Creative Commons
Ash Marat: enter 'cult of the amateur'
You: yes Andrew 's definitely my new boyfriend, I love how he stands up to Lessig
Clubside Granville: The next step will be the RIAA giving in to people running public radio stations... it's in their best interest, playing songs gets people interested in buying them
You: a joy to behold
You: it makes me believe in the Internet again
You: maybe we can get that future that Zittrain is trying to stop har har
Ash Marat: ha!
You: Who pays, Clubside?
Tammy Nowotny: conventional radio stations STILL don't pay for their records.. originally the idea was that it was free advertising
You: what is the business model?
You: yes Tammy
Tammy Nowotny: although today most radio stations play old music which may or may not still sell CDs
Clubside Granville: The regular Joe out shopping for music pays, a song has piqued there interest, and the RIAA is spending more money
Orange Montagne: people won't create if they don't have rights and a way to get paid
Clubside Granville: shutting down personal broadcasters rather than using them
Clubside Granville: as a tool for promotion
You: yes Orange it seems to me that it is normal and natural to get artists and designers paid
You: and this allergy to commerce and paying them is suspect to me, it's wrong
Tammy Nowotny: ironically, the outlets which do break new music... the internet stations... do pay for their music (usually)
You: in fact, it's what drives people into the arms of big corporations that pay for them as inhouse help
Gwyneth Llewelyn: As said, I know very few artists iRL that don't want to get paid :D
Orange Montagne: all these mp3's everyone expects for free took days and weeks of labor to produce
Clubside Granville: I'm talking about Joe Bonehead on his gaming blog using music for a intro to his video story... it's a great way to get songs out
You: Gwyn, have you exampled Adam's opensimulator?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I wasn't impressed, prok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but ok, it's a start
You: because?
Clubside Granville: there to people who would otherwise not hear them and then they like it, or the person, and track down the music and buy it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because you can't sell content and put it in your parcel lol
Malburns Writer: rl artistes increasingly look to touring and merchandise rather than sales of music itself
Crap Mariner: or licensing their tunes to a corporation as theme music for a commercial
Malburns Writer: give away one to create demand for other
Helena Whittlesea: i don't expect any for free orange, i'm all for supporting artists i enjoy and who enrich my life. i don't get the 'steal because you can' thing. plenty of people do, obviously, but some people still don't.
Orange Montagne: right malburns this is true as the bulk of the revenue
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, I was saying that in a light tone, but I'm a huge believer in an economy model based on ownership that can be transferred — for a price.
Clubside Granville: Gwyn, I still haven't been to an OpenSim, the release notes mention too many things not working yet... but you find it cool so far?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, it's too early, Clubside
Tammy Nowotny: and some make deals with specfiic retailers... e.g., the Eagles & Mall*Wart (the Eagels are the biggest selling band of all time, BTW.)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: OpenSim is what SL was in 2001
Gwyneth Llewelyn: A rough sketch
Helena Whittlesea: who says that about the eagles tammy? that's an interesting blurb.
Ash Marat: SL is what SL was in 2001
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even LL's "closed alpha" in 2002 was more solid
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Ash
Gwyneth Llewelyn: nooo
Clubside Granville: D'oh!
Orange Montagne: agreed helena
Gwyneth Llewelyn: in 2003, 5 avatars sitting on a sim could crash it just by turning the camera :D
Ash Marat: ok, 2004. i'll be fair.
Tammy Nowotny: I didn't say they were the BEST band of all time. LOL.
Tammy Nowotny: in 2008, it takes 25
You: well couldn't it accelerate faster, Gwyn? it has more people on it than SL did at an equivalent stage
Clubside Granville: Given how the Lindens talk about simple things being tough to fix (group chat), I'm sure the "open" source is more like "spaghetti code" source
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ash: not even that. There is this illusion that SL crashed little in 2004 and was solid without lag
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that's simply not true!
Helena Whittlesea: tammy that's kinda built into the formula -- the BEST of anything is never the biggest selling or "most popular". contrary to ... well... popular opinion. hah!
Clubside Granville: It was lag city in 2006 too, Gwyn!
You: Clubside, I wonder about the group chat fix and what holds that up
Gwyneth Llewelyn: In 2004, my old laptop barely managed 6 FPS on a good day. These days, it runs 15-20 FPS... even with a dozen avatars around
You: I also wonder about the failure to fix the "share with group" bug
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Clubside: yes! i
Clubside Granville: It's funny Prok, they said something about "an underlying pipe" that was the root of it and
Clubside Granville: tied to other function
You: Gwyn, in 2004, what was better was the texture loading
Clubside Granville: Just rewrite the fucking thing from scratch
You: p2p cost us that -- it led to grey squares
Clubside Granville: Gimme a break!
Helena Whittlesea: wow that is hilarious, nostalgia for the good old days of 2004 when textures loaded better
Helena Whittlesea: so funny
You: there were crashes, indeed, and avatars shooting off world way more
Ash Marat: stability improvements, in my experience, are all but inconsequential/imperceptible relative to the accordant lack of other user experience improvements, primarily in the interface
You: but when you flew around the sims and got to your sim, it was more stable picture wise
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It didn't load THAT better...
Tammy Nowotny: texture loading has improved since 2006
You: for me, Windlight killed any ability to see the world
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ash, you're right on that
You: 2004 was way better for me!
Tara Yeats: well, sort of, Tammy...
Clubside Granville: My nostalgia is rooted around fewer ban lines, when you could actually just spend a few hours exploring
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Prok: turn WindLight off! (I do :) )
You: and even before Windlight, 2004 was better than 2005 when they brought p2p
You: Gwyn, um, i turned it off -- it's not enough
Helena Whittlesea: i hear you clubside! it's one of the funnest things in this place
Malburns Writer: population density has increased ahead of stability in some ways i suspect
You: dumbing down its settings aren't enough
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh. Sorry to hear that.
You: it's also the rapid change to a new graphics card, when I bought this computer 6 months ago, what was acceptable as a card is no longer on the specs
You: so that is hugely annoying
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well I guess I'm just lucky then :))
Orange Montagne: for me the worst was about mid-2006 - late 2007 , now a bit better
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Orange, you're right.
Clubside Granville: Helena, I have this wonderful ballon ship for flying around, nowadays can't go half a sim before I'm ejected and its returned
Malburns Writer: agreed Prok - same here
You: and then to hear smarmy lectures from Dave Linden about how we should get rid of our ancient computers that are already going to kindergarten, when I had one barely taking solids
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It was when LL had exponential growth with SL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, they have sustained growth — much easier to handle :)
Ash Marat: in other words, most users don't give a damn about the infrastructure if it means they only crash 8 times a month instead of 10. they care about things they actually are required to interact with
Dehri Hyun: Clubside: there are sims for does things
You: Crashing does not bother me
Crap Mariner: eh i needed a laptop anyway
You: Downtime is annoying but does not bother me
Helena Whittlesea: ejected balloon ship! not right. that'd be a great way to explore
You: its lack of political will to solve the ad farms and other issues
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Totally.
You: and th is handling of interoperability I find an appalling Bolshevism
Clubside Granville: Dehri, when I first joined I could flky for 16 sims marvelling at the creativity... that's what I thought this place was for
Tammy Nowotny: I went to Meta Linden's office hours, she was very pleased that only 22% of all session ended with a crash
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm :)
You: now even Gwyn is using the c-word, I'm in shock
You: that means it's worse than I knew!
Tammy Nowotny: and evidently region crashes are way down
Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL Prok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahahaha
Clubside Granville: Not your private in-the-middle-of-the-sim fuck shack with ban lines
Crap Mariner: region crashes are way down, yes
Ash Marat: of course it is. the wasteland of mediocrity extends also to political presence.
Helena Whittlesea: ha! clubside! what a great description
Helena Whittlesea: on the upside, at least the ban lines keep you from wandering in and picking up something you can't put down, eh?!
Dehri Hyun: Clubside: did you tried the kessel run?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :D
Crap Mariner: i, for one, try to stay below 300 meters. what happens in skybox, stays in skybox
Clubside Granville: No, what is that?
Tammy Nowotny: sometimes a region crash leads to a client crash... I see the grey screen about 1 region crash in 10.
Dehri Hyun: w8
Clubside Granville: Oh no, l33t speak!
Dehri Hyun: is the biggest flying corridor in SL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's not very surprising. Your SL client, Tammy, will connect to the sim you're in and the neighbouring 8.
Dehri Hyun: let me see if i find it in my inventory
Clubside Granville: If you send me a landmark, I'd appreciate it Dehri
Gwyneth Llewelyn: If one of those crashes, well, there is a high likelyhood that your client might crash too (lack of network acknowledgements)
Tammy Nowotny: I like thepoeple who put ban lines up and then build a skybox... forgetting the ban lines don't go that high
Clubside Granville: What's really sad is in Iris/Bella there is a great area for boating across dozens of sims, but you have to have the
Clubside Granville: smalled boat ever made not to touch the surrounding ban lines
Dehri Hyun: Clubside: i have it ith other alt
Dehri Hyun: brb
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
Clubside Granville: Yeah Tammy, up there they have a security system that ejects you from your vehicle but doesn't return it... lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: LL is not in the community management business
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, except for Bay City :(
Tammy Nowotny: I have run into a few of those
You: you call that a community Gwyn???
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... but an attempt of LL to try to learn :)
Crap Mariner: Bay City is just a speculator's haven at this point.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... at the cost of paing customers :)
You: you know, there is little they are willing to do there -- except make moreof the things
katykiwi Moonflower: no its a money grab
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *paying
katykiwi Moonflower: thats all
Tammy Nowotny: one of my neighbors built one right where my Strokerz... err attachment... rezzes its temp skyboxes on one of my lots
You: yes Katy
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, Katy
You: *chorus* YES KATY
You: lol
katykiwi Moonflower: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
Tammy Nowotny: one corner was on her land... luckily I was just testing it on my own
Clubside Granville: Well, Prok, back to the topic... is Lively a concern? Are any of the other "in-the-works" metaverses still coming? After they hype of late 2006/explosion of early 2007 is "virtual world" a dirty word?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm sure that making virtual worlds a dirty word is all that Google wanted with Lively :)
Crap Mariner: lively is playskool/fisher price for SL
You: oh Lively isn't a concern to draw people AWAY from SL but it draws new people to Lively, from there, they might go, oh, who knows, to other things, not SL
Helena Whittlesea: i'm ok with that
Ash Marat: what would be the concern? poaching user base? what's behind that question?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Google makes money indexing HTML and selling ads... virtual worlds don't work for them
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Prok, yes
katykiwi Moonflower: i wonder about the LL vision, like kapurs 3d camera, does he think we will all stand in front of our desks and act out avie movement
Elwood Abernathy: And also what do people think is becoming of the mainland.
Malburns Writer: yes Prok - that is only threat i see
Clubside Granville: I guess "behind the question" for me is the role of the web compared to a metaverse? Isn't much of
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But... there will be millions trying Lively and saying: "what, this is a virtual world? I have no interest" and NEVER try anything else.
You: soon, Lively will have a catalogue with not only Google FIC content but a larger FIC
katykiwi Moonflower: mainland is always a mess
Clubside Granville: the web's success that there's only one?
You: then they can sell for money
Crap Mariner: when thatday comes, my avatar will be seen drinking 99% of the time
Clubside Granville: Wouldn't the same have to be true for a metaverse?
You: the money will be some special deal with PayPal or whatever Google can own or coopt by that time
Tammy Nowotny: I like the mainland
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The question is what "soon" means. Google years?
Helena Whittlesea: hah!!
Clubside Granville: Mainland rules!
Elwood Abernathy: There is so much abandoned land around
katykiwi Moonflower: what is the minimum age for lively, i think its 13
You: they'll likely do it on a sort of ticket basis, you buy a $10 ticket like at a carnival and that gives you 32 "rides," and you use those as micropayments
Crap Mariner: Googlebucks
Tammy Nowotny: and it is being auctioned off... which is kinda fun
Gwyneth Llewelyn: They have their own payment system....
Helena Whittlesea: what's the exchange rate with shrutebucks?
You: don't forget Amazon has Whyville with coins in it too
Malburns Writer: i see a metaverse future on the desktop itself where apps and thew web are accessed "through" the metaverse interface
Ash Marat: ha!
You: erm sorry not Whyville
Orange Montagne: it's going to take awhile to find out what lively becomes...it's only been on for 2 days
You: that's a real game
Elwood Abernathy: Maybe they can finally have a use for WICS
You: Askville
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What's Askville?...
Clubside Granville: Whatever happened to "Virtual Laguma Beach"? lol
Elwood Abernathy: or whatever the WSE called them
You: that's this thing Amazon started
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Clubside: it's still there!
Malburns Writer: lively and such confuse and slow down that evolution
You: you gain points for answering peoople's questions
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or rather, still There.com™ :)
Crap Mariner: It went away with the M in MTV
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ahhhh like Google Answers?
You: Mal, why is Lively slowing that down?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Google Answers: another product of Google's that utterly failed.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mal, i agree
Gwyneth Llewelyn: it's like turning back the clock 10 years :(
You: I wonder how Lively will affect Raph Koster's new world
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Same trick that Microsoft did in the 1990s
Clubside Granville: People often forget Google's failures... the one that can't fail soon enough is GWT
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha so do we all, Prok :))))))))
You: his has a different premise, no?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Clubside: hear, hear
You: it has the ability for people to add things with CSS style sheets and scripts etc
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It does? Tell me, Prok! I thought it was exactly the same
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah
You: I think it is being built as more of a builder's kit from the start, no?
Orange Montagne: right IMVU and Metaplace are the ones threatened by Lively
Malburns Writer: lively (and vivavity and others) are creating a false impression of what the metaverse will be by trying to embed it in the "web" - "web" will oneday be embedded in metaverse
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok... yes, that surely works in Metaplace
Orange Montagne: standalone rooms
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Orange: and Meez, Vivaty, MOOVE.... all of them "embeddable" on Web pages too
You: i mean as an interface, it will maybe even be more crappy than Google because it is more bare bones until various devs dress it up on their worlds
You: I'm not sure, haven't seen it lately
Orange Montagne: yes those too, then small download ones
You: You know even SlimJim world isn't the worst
Tammy Nowotny: well, tyvm for the discussion, I must run along
Clubside Granville: Malburns, that's a problem we all face... no new protocols have really been successful since HTTP...
Clubside Granville: it's a shame,,,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Clubside, indeed
Orange Montagne: Coke world
You: Meez and Twinity I have not been able to get running
You: it just plain won't work
You: Actualyl Vivaty too
Gwyneth Llewelyn: when will LL finish the port of all their communications to HTTP? :-D
You: I have to sit with that in IE and get it to work
Cato Tomsen: greetings, i`m the real person behind dehri
Clubside Granville: Gwyn, and make up their minds, TCP or UDP...
You: I'm the real person behind Prokofy
Tammy Nowotny waves and poofs
Ash Marat: what does IE have to do with HTTP? =)
Crap Mariner: I'm a robot. I'm not real.
Cato Tomsen: here clubside
Orange Montagne: I've ben unable o face Twinity or Vivaty at the moment
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nothing, but certainly a lot with those myriad of web-embedded VWs
Cato Tomsen: the kessel run description
Clubside Granville: Thank you very much Cato
Elwood Abernathy: And I am a misfit i finally got recognized at the birthday party
Cato Tomsen: o do care about flyability in SL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I never managed Twinity to run; Vivaty is on my list of things to see tomorrow :)
Clubside Granville: Nothing's better than a protocol embedded in another protocol separated from the hardware, Gwyn!
Cato Tomsen: in some case really is one abuse of rights stop it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Clubside
Malburns Writer: agreed clubside - but it has to come - prob was http was benevolently "gioven" to world in any way - new protocols are being developed by individual parties and not community for most part
Gwyneth Llewelyn *giggles*
Orange Montagne: do report back on what you find Gwyneth!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Probably not much, except much nicer avatars than Lively, Orange :)
Cato Tomsen: i fly big space ships with more than one k of prims in SL
You: I had Twinity working and I liked it
Malburns Writer: although mpeg-v seems to have cross industry support
You: but then it stopped
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You're so lucky, Prok, I envy you....
Clubside Granville: In my world (education) you get dual failures: MathML and SVG... even embedded standards fail! lol
You: well it had some interesting things about it
You: the rooms there seemed a little more sophisticated somehow
You: but I don't know why
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I tried to download Twinity for days and days. When I finally got it installed, it always crashes on login :(
Cato Tomsen: i don´t need two AV`s here
You: rooms to me are not a viable metaverse component
Cato Tomsen: half nite to everyone
MarkTwain White is Offline
Gwyneth Llewelyn: prok: exactly
You: Where is the real estate to a room? there isn't -- that's a problem
Gwyneth Llewelyn: bye Cato
You: bye Cato see you
Malburns Writer: my twinity crashes 9 out of 10 at boot too
Clubside Granville: The rooms in Sony's Home are more sophiticated Prok because prims are the lowest form of 3D construction and
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And... how do you know which rooms to visit?
Orange Montagne: Similar results with HipiHi never got it to run fully
Clubside Granville: others use more modern 3D tech
You: you know there is some other thing than a prim in Lively
You: but they look like meshes of dummies
Clubside Granville: Lively uses meshes
Malburns Writer: i am watching VastPark too - may be sleeping dragon there
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, actually, Clubside, that's an old discussion :) It's like saying what's better, Python or PHP :)
You: they are always showing the guts of the world there too loading
Clubside Granville: Gywn: neither! lol
Lem Skall: python
Gwyneth Llewelyn: At the end of the day, it's all triangles :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: see? lol
Dehri Hyun: re
Crap Mariner: Buckminster Fuller would be proud
You: It seems to me the dirty little secret of flash worlds is that the loading bar or in the Google case the materializing bar is as bad as the download of a world like SL and its world loading
You: how is it different? for the user, it's still a bar loading
Gwyneth Llewelyn: My old teacher once asked that same question to all his students. Then, smugly, he just answered: "it's all machine code in the end"
Ash Marat: the sleeping dragon is likely the vw that unalpologetically bypasses a basis of user-created content
You: it's all a big telephone
Clubside Granville: A real 3D world needs meshes and skeletons in addition to prims... just like learning a 3D app like Maya, you can
Gwyneth Llewelyn: For the mesh vs. prim issue, it's the same thing: polygons on the graphics card; pixels on the screen.
You: and the big telephone is all just a truck
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Prok: yes yes yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: See
Clubside Granville: start with the simple and *** LEARN ***
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's why it's important to separate the techie thingies from the social ones
You: did anybody ever put a prim and mesh world together?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: If you had a billion prims in a sim,
You: and guess what
Gwyneth Llewelyn: you could do the same thing as any mesh.based environment
You: on Google, you can only fit like 20 avatars to a room
Clubside Granville: Not a world that I know of, but many games with map builders (like Far Cry) operate that way
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And it would still load slowly! lol
You: so so much for all this whining about SL sims!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe prok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: on Sony Home.... only *16*!
Clubside Granville: Gwyn, the docs say it supports 40! lol
You: I'm wondering if I put the script to my Google home on a web on a prim kind of thing
Clubside Granville: The most I've ever seen was 19 or 20
You: will I get a sort of endless recursiveness
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yay, Google's Lively has "20% more avatars per room than Sony Home! Google rocks!"
Lem Skall: has there been any clear statement from Google about what market they are targetting?
You: see I'll have the web on a prim script here with the URL to that home
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: no.
You: and you click to go to that Lively place and then there's the ad to come back into SL
Malburns Writer: hah Prok - i was wondering about that
Dehri Hyun: i never finished modelling this one, but if so i would love see it fly in SL ;))
Dehri Hyun:
http://www.geocities.com/carlos_canelas/katus/starship.jpg
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Google hardly cares, Lem... :) it's just an experiment for them.
Malburns Writer: like flaskh on a prim
Clubside Granville: Webzen's coming shooter Huxley has been demoed with 100 users and 60 bots on a single server
You: I never tried that web on a prim stuff after that first day
You: I forget how you do that
You: it probably can't work
You: right?
Elwood Abernathy: I read they are marketing to the social networking crowd, like facebook
You: I mean web on a prim is just a texture fro photobucket or something
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lively-on-a-prim, hmm
Crap Mariner shrugs... it's useful for Google Calendar display
Clubside Granville: Web on a prim was activated, Prok?
You: but Elwood Facebook is made up of real people who know each other from real life
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No. you can run animated GIFs and javascript on web-on-a-prim. Just no flash :(
You: and they use facebook to connect again during off times when they aren't together
You: it doesn't have a kind of intrinsic world of its own
You: thtat is FB becomes an element of socializing, but rooted in RL socializing
You: Google Lively is supposed to be that too
Malburns Writer: page on a prim works interactively if page uses javscripts to refresh or scroll - some good potential already
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
You: yet it is immersive enough that it might involve creating an intrinsic world
Clubside Granville: Facebook and its ilk are for the wonderful new generation obsessed with the minutae of their own lives relative to the planet as a whole... lol
Lem Skall: the only original/interesting thing about Lively was that it is embeddable in a webpage, IMO
Helena Whittlesea: thank you clubside! thank you so much for saying.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Clubsidee: so true *sighs*
Gwyneth Llewelyn hands over Clubside a medal for dissing Facebook
Gwyneth Llewelyn applauds
Tara Yeats: a very apt description Club
You: well but Clubside, the next gen will have all those openspimes that they claim will be used to save the planet, not control minds.
You: of course I don't believe them for one moment
Clubside Granville: Prok, they can't control their own minds... or keep them on topic for more than a few seconds!
Helena Whittlesea: you have to control minds to save the planet. i hate to be a downer, but....
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
Helena Whittlesea: ok let's say you have to INFLUENCE minds. there. more comfy!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, the 10-second-attention-span-generation!
Crap Mariner: combine google earth, lively, and their tags and you've got a planet that can we walked aroud. the possibilities depend on what they hook together
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "log in here... invite your friends... ommmm ommmmm"
Clubside Granville: Hey, Ashley's having a party but on MySpace Janice said she was wearing white socks, let's go to the mall
You: well I'm happy to not save the planet then
You: that sort of thing seldom works
Ash Marat: it's fundamentally a problem of conflating ubiquity with capacity
Malburns Writer: funny - thought was 5 secs
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Crap: so why didn't Google do that? :)
Helena Whittlesea: gosh GL if you can come up with a machine to force people to pay attention for 10 whole seconds, that'd be genius! ; )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: They had three years!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Helena!
Tara Yeats: oooh, good one Ash!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, ok
Crap Mariner: they want to get people used to the dolls before selling the malibu dream houses.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
Clubside Granville: They tried that with a pill Helena, Ritalin...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is Google we're talking about, right? :)
You: Helena but doesn't SL do that with poseballs?
Clubside Granville: In the "old days" they were spoiled, now its called "ADD"
Ash Marat: it's just true. being networked doesn't make you capable of anything.
Crap Mariner: google released a very dysfunctional Google Reader early on. it's evolved voer time to something actually functional and interconnected with the rest of their producrts. same with gmail and gtalk.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wow Crap
Tara Yeats: ok, when someone does a mashup of Google and Myspace and it gets griefed, would they have grey Goospace?
Crap Mariner: i expect lively to interconnect with the rest of their products in time just the same
Helena Whittlesea: hah!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You have way better opinion of Google than what they really are after
You: except now I dno't bother with it Crap I read FriendFeed because I am feedrupt like I am podrupt
Dehri Hyun: will google buy SL?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Dehri: noooooo
You: hmmm
You: somehow I think not
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Different business model!
Dehri Hyun: lol
Clubside Granville: It's also tied into their research and other tools, but I'm not sure how successfully Crap. Microsoft dropped their analogues recently.
You: the Lindens HATE ads
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You can ask if *Amazon* will buy LL. That would work. Amazon have their crazy grid of theirs.
Dehri Hyun: they were in battle with the owners of youtube to buy SL, i heard
Ash Marat: amazon also get commerce.
Dehri Hyun: last week
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly: Lindens hate ads; Google hates anything that is not HTML.
Clubside Granville: Amazon could be hinting at it with some of the new S3 services
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Amazon sells content; Amazon sells a grid. So there you can see a few connections.
Tara Yeats: Amazon & Google are already in cahoots over clouds
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, exactly, Clubside.
Ash Marat: compare mechanical turk to google answers.
Clubside Granville: I think we had this talk two years ago Gwyn when Prok was first talking to us about
Gwyneth Llewelyn: sh: yes!
Clubside Granville: the corporate entities coming.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *Ash sorry
Crap Mariner: I have my theory on who would buy LL, but it's rather crackpot.
Malburns Writer: yes - google's whole empire (like myspace and facebook etc) is intimately tied to the old "web" - they don't want competing new "web" like grid/metaverse will be
Clubside Granville: Amazon makes sense with all their consumer feedback, walk the
Helena Whittlesea: let's hear the crackpot theory!
Clubside Granville: virtual ailes as protesters tell you
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What was the result back then, Clubside? :)
Clubside Granville: not to buy Sony!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
Dehri Hyun: and if someone buys SL what is the role of IBM in it?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Malburns: exactly. And that's why Lively is.... what it is.
Crap Mariner: Commerce/marketing will continue to stumble. Education will grow.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It should have been obvious it would NEVER be SketchUp+Google Earth
Clubside Granville: Gwyn, wasn't the result they came, had virtual terrorism thrown upon them (American Apparel) and they left?
Malburns Writer: comms companies are a step ahead - they see systems, routing and servers etc - not tied to web
You: You know I read this absolutely fatuous piece about some e-learning thing in SL eysterday
Gwyneth Llewelyn: naaah Clubside
You: on Google news
Clubside Granville: lol
You: and it sounded like they had perfected the: notecard taker
Helena Whittlesea: AA's crossover to the 'dark side' of marketing is an interesting story in and of itself clubside
You: truly\
Dehri Hyun: someone told me that neverwinter nights became bad when ppl could tun their on sims in their computers
Orange Montagne: IBM already have their own grids etc. so they dont need LL it seems
Crap Mariner: When you find an entity wanting to buy an educational institution outright for themselves, that's your LL buyer.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: they're just low profile these days, but there are*thousands upon thousands* of companies in SL
Helena Whittlesea: dogooderism didn't move enough product so it was straight to the fast track: SEX!
You: that could be a cautionary tale Dehri
Clubside Granville: Helena, I think the ultimate fallout of Second Life will be Prok's book about it... lol
You: didy ou read Mitch Kapor's keynote?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Crap: so Amazon is not on the list?
Dehri Hyun: and like mpore SL because runs thhe inventories in their SL servers
You: hahaha Clubside I wish
Helena Whittlesea: now that's an unbeatale combination
Gwyneth Llewelyn smiles at Club & Prok :)
Helena Whittlesea: oh prok you're writing one too? gosh. who isn't... hmm.....
Clubside Granville: No, I meant to after I saw your link Prok... what did Mitch drone on about this time? Was he at the last SLCC?
Clubside Granville: Oh, I need to start a JIRA post... the login page of the client is borked at higher than 1920x1200 resolution
You: Amazon Developer Island: traffic 30
Clubside Granville: It's a deal breaker! lol
Helena Whittlesea: clubside while you're there, start one for me about M Linden not responding to my mash notes!
Dehri Hyun: anyway, will SL ever release a standalone version' can we use our inventories there'
You: no he wasn't
Dehri Hyun: ?
You: well I liked what Dusan Writer said about his speech
Helena Whittlesea: by the time you get the JIRA posted, i might have actually gotten interested enough to write a mash note to M Linden. ; )
Ash Marat: that's so quaint!
Malburns Writer: this just came on Press Club IM ..
Clubside Granville: The only thing about M Linden I could probably muster is how he/she/it gets away with a one letter name!
Malburns Writer: Rissa Maidstone: Second Life Looks at Google Lively! Saturday, July 12 - 5 PM PST (SLT)/8 PM EST Full information to attend:
http://www.world2worlds.com/index.php/upcoming-events
Moderated by Ziff Davis Enterprise's John Jainschigg, our panel consisting of Eric Reuters, Reuters, Inc.; Rhonda Lowry, Turner Broadcasting; Mitch Wagner, InformationWeek, will discuss Google's quiet introduction of their Lively virtual world platform that may mark the beginning of a new era for the exploding virtual worlds industry.
You: about the old guys getting together to compare vitamin regimens and trying to hang on til the Singularity
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooooooooh
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Malburns, that's COOL!
You: what is world2world
Helena Whittlesea: complicated vitamin regimens are strictly for suckers. that's what i heard.
Clubside Granville: "excploding" virtual worlds industry?
You: well, there's Lively
Gwyneth Llewelyn: sure Clubside.
You: then there's Deadly
Clubside Granville: lol
Helena Whittlesea: har!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lively has 250 million registered users.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Granted, not all logged in to Lively yet.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :D
You: surely some will come to my motel then
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But
Malburns Writer: lol
Helena Whittlesea: 249mill of whom are 13 yo
You: I need to get higher up on the list
Clubside Granville: "Does Lively represent a challenge to Second Life's vision, or a powerful endorsement?"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: In 24 hours, the number of VW users went from 60 million to 310 million
Helena Whittlesea: neither clubside. imho.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: registered users.
You: hmm I better change to a PG venue then
You: it has 13 year olds on it?
Clubside Granville: These are quotes from that article
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lively? of course
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and sex
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lots of sex
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Helena Whittlesea: yeah prok, sorry, i was just being snarky. i should stop. i'm sure alot of them are at least 15.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: even with furries.
Ash Marat: "you keep using this word 'vision'"...
Helena Whittlesea: : )
Clubside Granville: 15-year old furries?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "Lively Sex"
Orange Montagne: yikes that's huge
You: I guess it makes sense
Helena Whittlesea: i know! i'm wondering about that 'vision' thing
You: I thought people went to all the other things like Meez
Gwyneth Llewelyn: tes, Club :)
You: i mean kids did
Clubside Granville: Next will have to deal with reverse age role-playing!
You: but what would I know
Gwyneth Llewelyn: They do, too, prok
You: my kids haven't gone to Lively yet
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... yet...
Dehri Hyun: Clubside: try fly there when you`ll have time
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that Lively actually got very little press.
You: I think they'd find it lame
Helena Whittlesea: sure clubside. surely you're not harboring some notion that 15 yos are sheltered?! the ones that, you know, have access to the interwebs and know how to 'register' for stuff?
You: they go on WoW, Facebook, Meebo
Dehri Hyun: it´s two sims now
Helena Whittlesea: because... well....
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, it's full of SLers :)
Orange Montagne: that's a tidal wave of people
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I've just met one non-SLer in Lively... a WoWer... he gave up after 10 minutes
Clubside Granville: Hey Prok, Flipper gets a mention on the articvle that follows the one about SL vs Lively!
You: where's this?
Malburns Writer: my feeds were full of it Gwen - but an awful lot did not "get it2 at all
Clubside Granville: a conversation on "Trademarks for Virtual World Related Businesses."
Gwyneth Llewelyn: SLers are used to software that fails, rooms that don't rez, horrible interfaces...
Clubside Granville:
http://www.world2worlds.com/index.php/upcoming-events
You: hahah Gwyn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :D
You: yes I will read that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Malburns, yes, but...
You: Lively is dull tho, not an awful lot to do in it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: as you said, the messages didn't make sense
You: I managed to keep myself happy for about 2 hours yesterday
You: but then, well, that was it
Malburns Writer: i can see Lively is a joke for "gamers" - not a game
Orange Montagne: its' been on for 2 days and already all this panic, it's serious news
Crap Mariner is Offline
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Me too, Prok, but that's because I met all the people from here over there :)
Clubside Granville: Prok, it's the same thing with Sony's Home, but PS3 fanboys say "I gotta have it"
You: I already see Silicon Report etc saying "No an SL killer"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ahhhh yes, Orange
You: yes but what are the equivalent fanboyz in this setting? Gtalkers?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wonder if that's what Google predicted: that SLers would crowdsource the marketing for Lively too
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Of about 200 articles on Lively, I just read 2 from non-SLers :D
Clubside Granville: You have to suffer to learn, like a hand on an iron! I weep for the future...
Helena Whittlesea: GL, that means you did just what they predicted!
Helena Whittlesea: those google geniuses. heh
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: They are!
You: well where's Raph's thing? His sounded better.
Helena Whittlesea: you and all those other sl-ers.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly!
Salzie Sachertorte is Offline
Dehri Hyun: btw, any preview about when SL will blow up with so many users?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Dehri
You: Better because it seemed you had the ability to take other people's components and people could make components
Gwyneth Llewelyn: About .... 2006? :)
Orange Montagne: even Corey Ondrejka and Sibley got jabs in
Helena Whittlesea: yeah exactly, except i think you guys are a certain kind of sl-er and not the typical.
You: wait
Dehri Hyun: and things for the inventaries
You: Sibley has a new job?
Helena Whittlesea: i read cory's thing orange. i didn't read it as a jab....?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, Helena, but.... mmmmh
Clubside Granville: Believe it or not there are Google Fanboyz... go to Ajazian and watch them suckle at the teat of GWT...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "we make the news" ;)
Ash Marat: i'm thinking maybe there won't be an sl killer, but a diaspora into specialized/targeted alternatives
You: yes Ash, that's what TSO spawned
Helena Whittlesea: mmmmh yourself GL! just saying. ymmv.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL
Orange Montagne: I read it quickly, maybe just how i read it
Clubside Granville: Prok said this years ago, that none of the possible "killers" would have an economy... and so far no one does
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I was expecting quite a lot more from the Google fanboys, to be honest.
Clubside Granville: Except PS3 Home will whore out Sony movies and games
You: and yet, the Lindens piss on their economy, and can't wait to kill it
You: and are killing it
You: it's odd
You: the one thing they should nurture
Ash Marat: an economy in the same sense may not be a necessary ingredient. it's not a priority for me personally.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly....
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, not for you perhaps, Ash
You: they don't have economies because geeky techlibs are making them
Helena Whittlesea: orange - i mainly took cory to be saying, basically, that liively is not really 'competition' for sl and is not likely to become like what google search has become, which is in a nutshell 'the standard'.... i tend to agree, at least at this point.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But... its what makes SL unique
You: but in time, they will be overtaken by normal people : )
Dehri Hyun: maybe SL grew too much for is handable, and so they want kill it
Helena Whittlesea: GL do you think it's a priority for most sl users?
Clubside Granville: I don't know about Lively, but Home has been designed from the ground up to nickle-and-dime your Avatar dressing needs
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You're crazy, Dehri :)))
You: imagine when google search can serve up little Lively replicas of what you are searching for tho
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Helena: yes.
Helena Whittlesea: why do you think so?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just ask them... :)
You: see in 3-5 years it may do all sorts of amazing things and they own the search and they own people's intention
Helena Whittlesea: i don't have time to ask 'most users'!
You: owning intention, they could clean up
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, don't take my word for it, ask Prokofy...
Helena Whittlesea: what's the thought based on?
Helena Whittlesea: well, you said, so i'm asking YOU.
Ash Marat: lots of things make sl unique. it's avant garde.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I read what Prok says about his tenants :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And all of them want to own homs
Helena Whittlesea: his tenants are most users?
Dehri Hyun: Gwyneth:for how long at it´s rates grwoing you think SL will be handable?
You: I should write a book like Zittrain: "The Future of Second Life and How to Stop It"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: They're most of the *typical* users
Helena Whittlesea: hm. interesting logic...
Clubside Granville: Prok, or it will end up like Google Docs, something a few evangelists push while everyone sticks with non-browser-based apps
Helena Whittlesea: well, as measured by that yardstick.
You: they seem like they are most users to me
Helena Whittlesea: ha! prok, i hear you.
Helena Whittlesea: hey, knock yourself out!
Orange Montagne: Thanks Helena, maybe it was mostly Sibley that got the punch in ...ty for summarizing the point
You: do you mean some sort of desktop window?
Dehri Hyun: everydays more new items must be stored in SL servers
You: scary
Dehri Hyun: more ppl get´s in
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the point is, Helena... if you turn to any reasonably sized community... the vast majority is not different from Prok's tenants
You: inventory caps: coming soon to a theater near you
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure there are exceptions
Helena Whittlesea: yeah orange! i don't think i've read sibley's thing, will look for it -- and my summary of cory o may or may not match anyone else's! was just my own point of view.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ouch Prok, I dread the day!
Dehri Hyun: and more inevntories must be stored in SL servers
Clubside Granville: I mean some things just don't fit the web model... I'm old enough to know the mainframe world is not one we want
You: I don't see any of them stampeding to Lively
You: I see them buying openspace sims perhaps or quitting SL because of Windlight
Helena Whittlesea: GL that's a crazy leap of logic. sorry, but it is.
Dehri Hyun: until when can SL hang that growing?
Orange Montagne: no don't say that! dont give them ideas.
Helena Whittlesea: hah!
Helena Whittlesea: yes! PLEASE give them IDEAS!!!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: helena, no — it's trying to get the overall picture by using selected segments of the market that have statistical significance, and extrapolate...
Clubside Granville: Does everyone turn off Windlight here?
You: oh all those code kiddies always tell me somberly that inventory cap is never how they will solve dbase problems
You: you know how Lindens hate restrictions
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Helena Whittlesea: statistical significance? GL, are you attempting to impress me? try harder. ; )
Orange Montagne: I'm ok with windlight
You: make someting work as a side effect; don't make it not work as a plan
Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*
Helena Whittlesea: i'm indifferent about windlight as of now.
Helena Whittlesea: i'm more interested in other stuff. i'm not a fair statistical sampling!
Helena Whittlesea: totally unfair.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, Helena, what you're saying is that the hundred thousand users in SL that actually make the economy work are pretty irrelevant? :)
Clubside Granville: It was an enlightening day when I heard "extrapolation" wasn't a sexual term... lol
Tara Yeats: haha Club
Helena Whittlesea: no, i'm not saying that GL. but you go on ahead without me. ; )
Orange Montagne: but it does create a barrier to entry
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Club
Helena Whittlesea: ha! clubside
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I think they are statistically relevant, yes
Dehri Hyun: lol: how do i turn windlight on and off'
Helena Whittlesea: well, if you want to use it that way....
Dehri Hyun: i don´t know how to do that yet
Helena Whittlesea: hey dehri --- it was a huge day for me when i realized i could just turn off 'clouds' and 'fog'!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Dehri: Edit > Preferences > Graphics and set it to Mid
You: Sony Home is still on the boards
You: it has jobs advertised
Dehri Hyun: i have it in minimal
Helena Whittlesea: and i didn't even realize it on my own, someone was nice enough to tell me. i'm sure the information is buried in some wiki or 'knowledge base' somewhere.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, so you have WindLight off already, Dehri
Dehri Hyun: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Clubside Granville: I will accept nothing less than Ultra, Gwyn! That's the best, it says "Ultra"! lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Clubside :D
You: it's funny how all interactive flash chat rooms are called "virtual worlds" now
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now you can even have "Mega" — with shadows, yay!
Helena Whittlesea: someone get jaron lanier on the phone, STAT!
Malburns Writer: sony home will be interesting when - it is a hardwired client so cant have constant ups and down like lindens
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Malburns, yes, it should be interesting.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But can Sony Home be embedded on a Web page? :)
Orange Montagne: Any given teddy bear wth it's own website is now a virtual world !
Clubside Granville: If Sony launches Home before the end of the year and Lively gets some attention, next year should be quite interesting
Gwyneth Llewelyn agrees with Clubside
Orange Montagne: its sorry
Malburns Writer: ho ho - i doubt it
Helena Whittlesea: gosh orange, what do you have against teddy bears?! don't hate! : )
Clubside Granville: Gwyn, the PS3 store is now available on the web, but Home is too tied to the Cell I believe
Orange Montagne: I have to buy a bear to sign up!!
Helena Whittlesea: ha!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, if you have a room-based chat without embedding it on a web page, how can you compete with Google? :)
Helena Whittlesea: maybe you could just rent one. a really really cute one.
Tara Yeats: LOL Helena
Orange Montagne: hahah
Helena Whittlesea: : )
Clubside Granville: Google's the new AOL, they'll just buy Sony for paper
Helena Whittlesea: wow club, them's fightin words!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: the point here is that Google now set a minimum requirement for room-based 3D chat: it has to be on a web page. Sony Home won't. So. Either Google is wrong, or Sony is wrong. Which of them will be?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm talking about NASDAQ of course.
Clubside Granville: Ugh, "mashups", just what we needed another new Internet "word"
Clubside Granville: Both are wrong Gwyn, until they have any retention, something Second Life has yet to achieve
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good answer!
Gwyneth Llewelyn bows
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So LL, Sony, and Google are wrong :D
Gwyneth Llewelyn: wow
Gwyneth Llewelyn: we're running out of options...
Malburns Writer: how long before sl is stable enough to have a version for platform machines might be a good question to ask
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2020?
Orange Montagne: dont forget the Mii's
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and Apple's iWorld, to be launched on iPhone
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops
Gwyneth Llewelyn *covers her mouth*
Clubside Granville: If you follow any new "blog" (ack) with embesdded video, that works because of local relevence... but embesdded "worlds" seems like a curiosity generator at best, a reason to longer visit the embedding site at worst
Orange Montagne: no don't
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, but it seems to be Google's sales pitch on Lively, right?
Clubside Granville: Apple has to go into hiding for a while after today... iWorld may still just be a stain inside Jobs' pants
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hha
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I was just joking
Clubside Granville: I know, so was I... but with
Clubside Granville: Nintendo, and "Everybody Votes"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually, I thought that Lively's launch should NEVER have been this week. Very foolish of Google.
Clubside Granville: and other platforms skating the "social networking" pond maybe some
Clubside Granville: consensus will come... before I die...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hopefully :)
Clubside Granville: Gwyn, what kind of Mac do you use?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: one iMac, one MacBook, two PowerBook G4 :)
Helena Whittlesea: braggart!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... all running SL smoothly lol
Malburns Writer: lol
Clubside Granville: On your MacBook what do you map voice chat too (since there's no middle mouse button)?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: .... one runnin Lively
Malburns Writer: ask a silly question .... !!!!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don't use voice, lol
Helena Whittlesea: how many goats did you sacrifice for that, GL? SPILL!!!!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmmh
Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head*
Ash Marat: 2x2.8 quad core mac pro
Gwyneth Llewelyn loves goat cheese
Gwyneth Llewelyn: so, yes, several
Tara Yeats: LOL
Clubside Granville: Hey, I have an iMac, MacBook and MacBook Pro, it was an honest question!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Clubside Granville: I still have and more often use my seven PCs, though...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL
Clubside Granville: What I love about the Mac is having 963 To-Do list applications
Lem Skall: Club, it must be really hot in that room
Tara Yeats: HGahaha Club!
Helena Whittlesea: what i love about the mac is it's a good filtering system
Clubside Granville: Good thing my masturbation habit keeps my pants off most of the time
Helena Whittlesea: ha!
Tara Yeats loves Apple Mail
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, actually, I'm terribly disappointed with Apple.
Lem Skall: oh, not what I wanted to hear, now that image is burnt on my mind
Gwyneth Llewelyn: They claimed nothing could crash Mac OS X
Helena Whittlesea: gosh club, you might try a few other methods. that might get chilly! wouldn't want you to catch cold!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: one application does that, constantly — SL.
Tara Yeats: oooh, wrong on that one Gwyn - SL does a dandy job of creating kernel panics
You: why would anyone want to play Sl on a phone?
Clubside Granville: Not all of the computers are in room, just two Macs, four PCs, a 1200 watt amp, two DVRs, five game machines and something called a "intense heat generator with no other purpose"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, tara, I'm so disappointed!!...
Helena Whittlesea: big deal club, let us know when you get a commodore 63
Clubside Granville: Prok, they'll next want virtual GPS for their avatar on their iPhone
Tara Yeats: Gwyn - on my G4 PPC, it seesm to run in waves - one client will be fine... the next one I flinch every time I try to launch SL
Helena Whittlesea: 63? is that right? hmm...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Clubside, see how much you're sparing in heating? :)
Ash Marat: 63, 64. whatever it takes.
Helena Whittlesea: ha!
Helena Whittlesea: honey : )
Ash Marat: =)
Clubside Granville: The Commodre 64 is in a pile with my 2600, Intellivision, Saturn, et al.
Malburns Writer: seems advent of G£ iPhone is prompting legislators to make gaming and driving illgel
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Does it run SL?.... that's the question!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean the Commodore 64, not the iPhone
Tara Yeats: LOL
Helena Whittlesea: a SACRED pile, i should only hope! respect.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Malburns: how so???
Dehri Hyun: was wonderfull to be here but i already had more than half of my program for this night killed because of this unexpected meeting
Clubside Granville: The 64 is good because the external floppy drive makes an excelklent projectile
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aww Dehri
Dehri Hyun: i hope to see you all again for the next meeting
Helena Whittlesea: and how, club! and how
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope you're not too dissppointed though!
Dehri Hyun: but now i should run
Malburns Writer: viurtual law blog (bejamin) mostly speculation though
Gwyneth Llewelyn: bye, Dheri!
Dehri Hyun: nite everyone
Helena Whittlesea: seeya dehri
Clubside Granville: Bye bye Dehri
Ash Marat: synth geeks also really love the c64 sound chip
Tara Yeats: nite Dehri
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll catch up with Ben's blog then, Mal!
Helena Whittlesea: because it's cool, that's why
Clubside Granville: Can't compare to the MOD players on the Amiga, Ash!
Ash Marat: that's right!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :-D
Malburns Writer: yep - think something was afoot there anyway
Helena Whittlesea: oh man, amiga.
Helena Whittlesea: geeked out! excellent.
Ash Marat: is amiga the one that had coax video out?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now I know why Prok is so silent... too many geeks in this room
Gwyneth Llewelyn *giggles*
Clubside Granville: Here's a funny: run a C64 emulator under an Amiga Emulator under VMWare on your Mac
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol CLubside
Orange Montagne is Offline
Clubside Granville: With virtual tape drive for storage!
Helena Whittlesea: that just means the room needs to be larger GL! !
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ROFL!!!!!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: nooo geeks are horrible
Clubside Granville: I'll have to see whether Time Machine backed that fucker up or not!
Malburns Writer: i still have amiga sitting in corner gathering dust - refuse to dump it lol
Helena Whittlesea: maybe you know the wrong kinda geeks. gosh. some of my best friends... well.... you know the rest...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: mmmh now that's a thought, CLubside.... Time Machine on LL's asset server.... hmmm
Clubside Granville: I have a 1000, 500 and 3000 all collectively gathering dust, Malburns!
Malburns Writer: lol Gwen
Clubside Granville: I'm the most hideous version of a PackRat(TM)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :-D
Malburns Writer: we are 2 of kind methinks Club
Tara Yeats vouches for Mal's packrat status
Clubside Granville: Actually my most nostalgic item Malburns is a Microsoft Mouse 1.0 still in the box from 1984
Clubside Granville: You''ll get some random douchbag using Jabber through Google Chat, Gwyn. That'll make your day!
Lem Skall: one sec, has everyone seen this:
http://secondlife.reuters.com/stories/2008/07/11/interview-linden-prepares-for-an-opensim-future/
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Definitely, Clubside :D
Lem Skall: maybe you guys already talked about it
You: hmmm
You: well in part
You: but I didn't see that piece
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Although my favourite GTalk friend is Ping.fim
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *Ping.fm :)
Clubside Granville: Eric Reuters must be one bored motherfucker...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooooh lem
Lem Skall: LINDEN LAB’S NEW REVENUE MODEL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh gosh
Gwyneth Llewelyn: exactly what I thought
You: Wait a minute
You: Joe Miller is not Zero Linden
You: Zero Linden is Marc Lentzer
You: Joe Miller is Joe Linden
Clubside Granville: Working with IBM today is like championing COBOL as the greatest language ever'
Helena Whittlesea: gotta love those factcheckers
Helena Whittlesea: maybe they interchange, prok? is that unheard of?
Malburns Writer: yep Lem - posted here a minute ago - quite good summary of possible way things are though i thought
You: of course, I do wonder why opensim, if it was copied off SL essentially -- oh, yes, I've heard all the protests that it wasn't reverse engineered but it was taken from libsl which WAS reverse engineered -- why all the hoopla about these two things talking to each other
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You see, prok,
You: yes Helena I wondered about that as soon as I read it
Clubside Granville: How is the monopoly to end with no commerce Mr. Reuters?
You: but i've never seen Lindens do that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: OpenSim doesn't talk to LL's central servers
You: use one Linden with several people
You: Zero Linden is Marc Lentzer
You: he's a distinct personality
Helena Whittlesea: maybe you only think you've never seen them do it, prok? beats me, but i wouldn't be at all surprised
You: of course now with our glorious communist future
You: brought to us by open source
You: the individual doesn't matter anymore
You: he is Zero
Ash Marat: hey, why not openav the avatars while you're at it
You: didn't these people ever read Zamyatin's We?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and use realXtend? :)
Clubside Granville: That article sure plays with wishful thinking in regard to OpenSim's progress on being feature complete
Helena Whittlesea: gee prok, what do you think?! i will take a wild guess that the answer is no.
Malburns Writer: there are so many cometing open-sim variants i see progess being quick
You: the thing about OpenSim is that it provides land cheaper, but not in an integrated economy
You: how will that grow from just hobbyists buying parcels to have offline prototyping and goof around in?
Malburns Writer: i like tribal net - local server holds my sim and rezzes with my avatar
You: they then can only sell it back to the new-style server baron they bought it from
You: there's no auction
You: “I could see Linden offering economic services, trading services, search services,” Miller said. Some OpenSim worlds may respect Second Life’s intellectual property protections and commerce functions. The Linden Dollar, with a years-long reputation of solid financial backing, may be positioned to become the gold standard of virtual currencies.
You: "may respect"
Malburns Writer: bit like Dr Who though - never sure where sim will land on grid each time
You: I read Zamyatin in 1974; i had no idea it would actually occur in a mere 30 years or so
Lem Skall: lol, I am reading Atlas Shrugged, it's amazing to see the similarities
Clubside Granville: That's the root of the proble, Prok, unless they just don't care about the commerce and just think people using OpenSim would be "neat"
Helena Whittlesea blinks
You: I read Atlas Shrugged in 1969
You: that and the Fountainhead -- cured me of Randianism for life
Lem Skall: oh Prok, you beat me to it
Helena Whittlesea: hear hear!
Clubside Granville: I violated Ayn Rand's corpse in 1993... oops, wrong topic...
Lem Skall: by 38 years no less
Helena Whittlesea: club, i think i like you....
Helena Whittlesea: : )
Lem Skall: 39
You: funny how people always accuse me of being Ayn Rand's follower merely because I advocate capitalism, her kooky stuff isn't even especially capitalist you know it's sort of anarchocapitalist oligarchi fascoid -- something
Helena Whittlesea: oh goodness, do people accuse you of that, prok? hmm...
You: Ayn Rand does not believe in God.
You: I think belief in God isn't the worst thing to have.
Malburns Writer: can u repeat that prok - didnt quite catch - lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I believe so, too (pun intended) :)
You: It isn't about God the person per se -- it's about understanding there is something higher than the individual which isn't the collective of other individuals
Clubside Granville: I always thought the books title was shortened from "Atlas Shrugged... after failing to get me off"
Helena Whittlesea: ha!
You: well belief in God is always knocked among the metarati and techlibs
You: but they wind up believing in even goofier stuff like karma or Zen or Buddhism or wiccan
Clubside Granville: Prok, did you get to see the game BioShock?
You: like that's better?!
You: give me the regular by-the-book God any day
You: no
You: I don't do games
You: hahaha Clubside
Clubside Granville: It's about an underwater utopia inspired by Rand's writings
You: well, she was Russian
You: the Russians open-sourced a lot of bad ideologies, very successfully
Lem Skall: no, she was Jewish
You: she was a Russian Jew
Helena Whittlesea: er...
Helena Whittlesea: there are russian jews.
You: born in Russia
Clubside Granville: Everyone goes crazy over genetic engineering... it was clever (and violent)
You: that matters
Lem Skall: whoa, you guys blew my mind
You: had she been born in America, she might have turned out very different
Orange Montagne: crashed....ty for hosting Prokofy and thanks to all added friends ... see you next time!
You: she came to America already with this full-blown cult
Gwyneth Llewelyn: bye, Orange!
Clubside Granville: Russian Jews... JMS, the creator of Babylon 5, created the only Russian Jew character I can think of in Commander Ivonova
Elwood Abernathy: GN Orange
Helena Whittlesea: seeya orange! hope to chat sometime soon about the SIG!
Clubside Granville: Bye bye Orange!
Orange Montagne: yes please do i'm around qutie a bit
Malburns Writer: bye orange
You: but there's some in Grand Theft Auto?
You: I could be mistaken
Clubside Granville: Well, we were hardly on topic Prok, but I had fun!
You: The evolution from a company that sells virtual land to the infrastructure backbone of a diverse array of OpenSim worlds will be a slow one, Miller emphasized.
You: could someone explain to me
You: why anyone who makes their own opensim thingies work
You: will bother with Second Life
Lem Skall: no I can't explain
Clubside Granville: Oh, the new one GTA IV... could be, but it's mostly nebulous "Easter European" and "Russian States" so who knows
You: after they suck all its content out of course
You: but then
Malburns Writer: we never stay "on topic" here but it's always "lively"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 14 million reasons, and 1.5 million reasons per day ;)
You: why would they come back to it for "infrastructure"?
You: that part escapes me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL Mal!
Helena Whittlesea: ha!!
You: Gwyn, but those people aren't growing
Gwyneth Llewelyn: True.
You: the people who go out on the open sims as they get better if Mal is right
You: why would they turn back and get some kind of hook-up with the Lab?
You: that part escapes me
Clubside Granville: I know Malburns, but the same guilt that forces me to buy something if I use the bathroom at McDonald's
Clubside Granville: comprels me to say that each time.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
You: yes I felt I had to buy a Wint-o-green pack at the Duane Read today because I used their blood pressure checker.
You: See i undid all the good
Clubside Granville: lol
You: I hate store guilt like that
Clubside Granville: Of course I think "I've bought shitloads from these motherfuckers, they owe me a free piss" but I just can't follow through
You: hahahahahahaah
Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is just a feeling, not even an opinion.... but the number of people in SL that actually are willing to create fully-copiable content for free are just a few tens of thousands
You: I wouldn't go in the McDonald's near us, I might contract something.
Helena Whittlesea: wow, i feel bad, i don't have guilt like that! i must be apportioning mine for other stuff. and not even having any wint-o-green to show for it!
You: Gwyn you know, that has to be said loudly
You: I'm here still fighting these idiots on Not Possible In Real Life
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmmh you're right
You: like Communism
You: Not Possible etc
Ash Marat: you have no-guilt guilt!
You: they are constantly sniping, if you sell freebies, you are looking for "profit"
Helena Whittlesea: i have no no-guilt guilt!
You: they can't grasp that few people can sell freebies
You: who would buy them?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly!
Helena Whittlesea: how much wood would a woodchuck chuck?
You: I put them out for a $1 because I don't believe in tiering freebies for free
Clubside Granville: You're saving it for some future 12-step plan, Helena!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Giving freebies away in order to TRY to attract paying customers is one thing
You: Perhaps that gal, whatsis? the Queen of Sl? she could sell arms for $100 or $500, free weapons
You: but then, that's a nice market
Gwyneth Llewelyn: alas, Crazy Zebra found out that doesn't work *so* well...
You: I mean, how many people buy weapons?
Helena Whittlesea: ha! all my plans go to 11 club! but you're onto me...
You: hahaha Crazy
You: well but wait
You: Lordfly found that out
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, poor LF :(
Clubside Granville: As long as we've veered this far off-topic, any good new Anshe Chung stories?
You: but 57 and Onder are still collecting money from it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: True :(
Helena Whittlesea: there's a queen of sl? WHO?! i probably haven't been properly worshipful.
Malburns Writer: yes - major for LF
You: on what do you base that statistic Gwyn?
Clubside Granville: Helena, couldn't you just make 10 louder?
Helena Whittlesea: i heard she made some money here club. may've just been a rumor. ; )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's not a statistic yet
Helena Whittlesea: uh... yeah club. but mine go to 11.
Malburns Writer: zebra new thing isnt even in SL anymore
You: Oh, but these freetard sandboxing code kiddies insist that the entire world should be run on this precept
Helena Whittlesea: : )
Clubside Granville: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: it's just a feeling based on the amount of people in SL
Jim Lumiere is Online
You: of course, while Mom, the Government or My Big IT Boss pays
Gwyneth Llewelyn: exactly.
Clubside Granville: Until they start making money, Prok?
You: Gwyn we may wean you away from your socialist illusions yet
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And that number of people that depend on Mom, Government, or Big IT Boss is not that high
Clubside Granville: That's on fast attitude adjuster!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL
You: but clubside, surely you don't buy the freetard line?
You: loss leaders are not what are meant here
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm a social democrat, remember? Socialism has nothing to do with it ;)
You: this is a heavily idealogical way of life, where you MUST give away everything
You: it's like the CC edict
Clubside Granville: No, when one friend says "you should sell that" and they do, make a few REAL dollars, and suddenly join the guild! lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: People are just motivated by two things: Greed & Glory.
You: no license for "pay me if you copy this" just "put out stuff to copy for credit only never ask for money and expect others never to ask for it or else we won't let you in the kool kids' club"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Alas, it's hard to buy food with Glory only.
Clubside Granville: Depends Gwyn, on how often she puts out...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: rofl
Helena Whittlesea: ha!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Point taken!!!
Malburns Writer: lol - Glory only works witrh a large R&D budget !
You: well what guild, Clubside? The "no business but my business" guild?
You: FlipperPAY's guild?
Clubside Granville: The Guild mentaility, the capitalism mentaility, the "non-kiddie" mentaility...
Orange Montagne is Offline
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
Clubside Granville: hard to say it... "the grown-up" mentality?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hah
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's why LL is staffed by kids and just has one grown-up?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even LL doesn't give away their land for free... :)
Clubside Granville: I know you work with a lot of newbies through the rentals... I'm sure you've witnessed the
You: clubside, that doesn't fly
Clubside Granville: evolution of "I make free shit and I'm a hippie" mode user to the "I need my JEVN" user
You: they don't go from altrutistic freetardism to business models
You: because the peer pressure is too great
You: remember, you must never sell a freebie! ever!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Clubside Granville: I guess I'm only dealing with closest script-kiddies and loners...
You: where does this evolution take place, Clubside? on what sim?
You: I'd like to see this
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd love to see it too...
Clubside Granville: One of my playground users went from giving her hair designs away to having 20 stores...lol
You: oh I see the little furry griefers and whatnot sometimes go the JEVN route but these aren't the architects of the freetard culture on the forums and such
You: those people remain absolutist
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, as long as it's long-term
You: they set the tone
You: well perhaps there's hope then
You: but see, what does NOT happen tho
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's interesting, Clubside.
You: is Kevin's 8 generatives
You: what does NOT happen
Clubside Granville: I know what you're saying, and its probably the vast majority... but many of thenm give in (and uninstall linux while they're at it)
You: is she gievs it away, and someone says, oh, I will pay you to make that in red
You: or oh, I'm putting on a play and give me 50 of them for pay
You: or wahtever recipe he has
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly
You: that may happen sometimes but it isn't what makes her become sustaining
You: what makes her sustain is 20 stores with normal stuff and normal prices
You: and permissions!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm not saying that this business model *can* work, but you have to provide two services
You: uninstall linux?
You: yes there may be hope
You: Clubside, you are doing the Lord's work
You: if you can get more people to JEVN's and uninstalling Linux
You: why, there is hope for this world!
Clubside Granville: I guess I may have veered off your comment... I guess I was talking about how many people don't "get" Second Life until you help them "get" it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: nooo
Clubside Granville: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Linux is a HUGE business these days :)
You: where is all this freetard culture propagated?
Clubside Granville: Today's schools
You: I mean other than Diggers/the Well/etc
Gwyneth Llewelyn: At the schools?????
Clubside Granville: Spelling is no longer a priority
Gwyneth Llewelyn is lost
Helena Whittlesea: speak for yourself club!
Clubside Granville: Embracing failing cultures and apologizing for imperialism is the new math
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ahhhh
Helena Whittlesea: some of us still care. sigh.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "political correctness"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry, I lost you for a moment, Clubside
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And yes, you're sadly right
Clubside Granville: What I meant is before you formed opions by being presented facts, now you are taught the opinions
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Helena Whittlesea: well.... ok, i'm following along here to an extent... but i can't get with the idea that someone who wants to give away some things and sell other things is engaging in 'politcal correctness'. sometimes it's just smart business.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Helena, the key word on that thought is "giving some things away to make money on others",
Gwyneth Llewelyn: not "giving sometimes a few things away, sometimes charging for those very things"
Clubside Granville: There are layers, Helena, Two years ago I ran a public andbox that gave away L$ and was the only non-gambling locastion in the Top 20
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The first model works; the second, well, I haven't seen it yet
Helena Whittlesea: those are multiple words GL! math is not your subject, is it? : )
Tara Yeats: "giving some things away" = marketing
Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL no
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tara: yes!
Clubside Granville: I thought encouyraging building would lead to contacts and help people get "into" SL... and it did...
Helena Whittlesea: yeah i know GL i do know that.
Clubside Granville: But ultimately the question of "helping" versus "controlling" came up, policing land wasn't what I was there for
Helena Whittlesea: GL and prok and whoever else i'm curious to know your take on 'avaverse'
Clubside Granville: and the people who wanted to learn and build were being muscled by the freeloaders...
You: I don't know what it is
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What's 'avaverse'?
Gwyneth Llewelyn is learning a lot today!
Helena Whittlesea: what?! do you guys only read your own blogs?!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ROFL
You: no
Tara Yeats: lol
Clubside Granville: /laughs
You: I'm just tired of worlds
Tara Yeats: what's avaverse?
You: I've had a lot of them lately
Helena Whittlesea: ok. i think i discovered it via new world notes
You: Small Worlds, this and that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I never read my own! Boooring
Helena Whittlesea: avaverse is not a vw
Malburns Writer: this has been great but is near 5am here in London - must sleep
You: Somebody sent me something about a new avatar thingies
Helena Whittlesea: it's a website/.....thing
You: that may have been it
Malburns Writer: will catch up in transcript i guess
Gwyneth Llewelyn: mal, yes, I just wish to learn what 'avaverse' is and then sleep
You: ok Mal see you soon
Malburns Writer: lol
Clubside Granville: Gwyn, the new blog thing is to post short tirades and then use an alt to post them on digg, where have you been?
Malburns Writer: c y'all soon
Clubside Granville: Bye bye Malburns!
Tara Yeats: nite Mal
You: what's the URL
Helena Whittlesea: avaverse.org
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "The Avaverse is a project, started by Nexeus Fatale to provide quality, open content for online and virtual world use. The mission of the Avaverse is simple, to provide a reliable, easy to find source of open content aimed at Second Life, virtual worlds, and other web platforms."
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm.
Helena Whittlesea: prok i figured you were all up on that
You: oh I think I critiqued that already
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So how does one join? :)
You: on his blog
Clubside Granville: Seems brand new
You: more open sourcey nuttery
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, first entry is from July 3
Clubside Granville: And like some previous freebie sites
Helena Whittlesea: yeah club i just saw it recently
You: yes I forgot he called it that
You: it's just Crazy Zebra only with his brand
You: he will go on making stuff he keeps closed and he will not quit his day job
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's what immediately comes to mind...
Helena Whittlesea: prok - right, i think now that you mention it i may have seen your name in the comments, that's why i thought you might have more to say
You: I got into a big debate with him
Helena Whittlesea: 'nuttery' about covers it, i guess. ; )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Clubside Granville: It's new, but the copyrights says 2006-2008! lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, no, what is Nexeus reasoning behind it?
Helena Whittlesea: maybe he types reeeeaaaallllly slowly
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Creating a brand?
Clubside Granville: lol
You: well what more is there to say? Nexeus, FIC 2.5, head of SLCC, long time Linden darling, has a real job as a coder, and a fashion job in SL, and he open sources some stuff so he can be groovy and be in the kool new commie kids' movement
You: and that's fine, but don't impose that as a model on everybody
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Attracting, uh, 'goodwill' and doing what CZ did?
You: it also undercuts his rivals
You: but whatever, that's Second Life
You: he has a brand
You: I think he just wants to be groovy
You: like the other kids with open source stuff
You: it's the wave
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think so too.... hey, I also have scripts for free on my blog!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I'm cool too :)
Clubside Granville: Prok, I know who I haven't heard about in a while, who was that chick "famous for building things" that you used to argue with on some SL news site and the forums?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aimee? :)
Clubside Granville: Yeppers!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Tara Yeats: Aimee, I suspect
You: I think she is in a deep depression somewhere
Clubside Granville: lol
Helena Whittlesea: tropical trough maybe?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well I've heard she's actually overly busy
Clubside Granville: Someone yanked too hard on her pigtails?
Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*
You: you know, the other day this journalist was flying around looking at SL architecture
Gwyneth Llewelyn: She never answers on Gtalk though
You: and I was trying to pull up names and corporate sites and stuff
You: and a lot of that stuff is GONE
Gwyneth Llewelyn points at Scope
You: it probably didn't even get photographed properly
Ash Marat: overly busy. you can die from that, you know.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: If she's dead, her Gtalk is always online
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (morbid thought!!)
You: the era kind of passed -- now the big build jobs are with edu sims
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Clubside Granville: Is Midnight City still around?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think so, yes
You: is there any advantage to being on gtalk?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: it was, a few months ago lol
You: if you have Twitter
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Prok, no :D
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But
You: I'm tired of Twitter too
Helena Whittlesea: twitter? hex!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don't like logging to twitter,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I prefer to use Gtalk for that!
You: all of these services actually just drive me back to SL if not RL
Tara Yeats: agree, Prok - unless a corp is being *very* strategic and not viewing SL as the next great marketing scam
Clubside Granville: I'm developing a Twitter rival called "Hey, Asshole!" at
http://heyasshole.org
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And
http://ping.fm
to update Twitter, Plurk, Facebook — all in one go :)
You: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL Clubside
You: ping.fm
You: oh dear
You: one more thing
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, now you have open source Twitter!
Tara Yeats: oooh, nice, Gwyneth!
Carter Liveoak is Online
You: what is open source Twitter and why isn't Steve Gillmore all over it like a cheap suit?
Clubside Granville: Because he's wearing it?
Helena Whittlesea: ha!
Tara Yeats: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
http://ostatic.com/167237-blog/laconica-can-open-source-save-twitter
You: well he wants Twitter to be opensourced so that he can get more viewers on his TV and be more influential
You: I still go on Twitter about once a day or every few days
You: people keep following me
Helena Whittlesea: is there any reason a person should actually care about twitter?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: it's just a group of people who are furious with Twitter's failures and reverse-engineered it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Twitter is ... "intelligent RSS"
Helena Whittlesea: i'm trying to get all concerned about 'missing out'. but i just can't. maybe i'm not trying hard enough.
Clubside Granville: My variation will allow stalking as an alternatiuve to following
You: no you can just go catch up like every 30 days on FriendFeed or something
Helena Whittlesea: somehow i manage to talk to people i want to talk to. it's primitive i guess but it works for me.
You: seriously, if I don't catch every single photo and comment from Robert Scoble, ok, I can live now, I'm free
You: after a year of reading it
Helena Whittlesea: i don't even know what friendfeed is. i'm not rushing to find out. maybe i'm anti-friend.
Tara Yeats: hee Prok
You: I was an early adopter on Twitter, good lord I think I got in on like March 2007
Tara Yeats: Helene - you've just saved a 2-hour/day sinkhole
Carter Liveoak is Offline
You: yes FriendFeed paled too
Helena Whittlesea: i think i know all i need or want to know about scoble without ever partaking of any of those cute newest-thing toys
You: NOTHING COMPARES 2 U
You: I still appreciate Scoble
Clubside Granville: I just love the thought of the minutae Twitter people and their followers getting phone texts... "I'm going to the bathroom" I'm unzipping" "I'm proud of my steady stream and healthly color" "Flushing now"
Helena Whittlesea: tara no problem, i got plenty of other junk to fill it up with!
Helena Whittlesea: : )
You: lol Clubside it literall is like that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ahhh it is, but...
Tara Yeats: noise expands to fill every available ear
katykiwi Moonflower: what a comment to return to after being afk
Clubside Granville: I know, it's the new cosmic joke... that we can now live... realtime!
Helena Whittlesea: prok quotes PRINCE! it's like THAT huh? the koolkid factor in this room just skyrocketed. heh
Gwyneth Llewelyn: it's a source of*interesting* links, *if* you're following the *right*people
Helena Whittlesea: PROK IS FIC!!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Helena
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No,
You: no that's Sinead OConnor
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Prok *invented* FIC
Helena Whittlesea: not really. they probably don't listen to a lot of prince
You: NOTHING COMPARES 2 U
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So he's far above that
Helena Whittlesea: prince wrote it prok
You: NOTHING COMPARES
You: 2 U
Ash Marat: right. it's a prince cover.
Helena Whittlesea: prince wrote the song and does his own version, fwiw. i recommend it.
You: IT IS?
You: OMG
Ash Marat: uh huh
You: You have to be kidding
You: Prince???
Helena Whittlesea: yes. you'd be surprised what else is a prince cover. heh
Clubside Granville: whenever I saw that video I'd shout, "Shut the fuck up for a sec, we gotta talk about your bald-ass head!"
You: THAT prince?
You: hahahah yes
Helena Whittlesea: prince rogers nelson! the very same!
Clubside Granville: Yes, THAT Prince! he 2 U should have given it away
Helena Whittlesea: i wouldn't lie to you, baby
Clubside Granville: Prince is l33t
Helena Whittlesea: (name that prince lyric!)
You: she was the first person to do close up head like that tho, prefiguring a decade of ZeFrank and CC Chapman
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :))))
Clubside Granville: She should have worn his Raspberry Beret!
You: I liked Sinead for a while before she went off on the Pope
Helena Whittlesea: close up head? well, not to quibble, but prince knows a thing or two about.... uh..... 'head'
Clubside Granville: While wearing his robe!
You: Scope what do you think of the trajectory of architecture in SL these days?
You: if you aren't AFK
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (no, he's here and happily IMing :) )
Ash Marat: i talked to SO on the phone once. she was dull.
Helena Whittlesea: way to OUT a guy, GL!
Clubside Granville: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm like that!
Helena Whittlesea: there's a surprise. it's always the way, huh
Scope Cleaver: Well I am right now trying to get a feel of just that
Helena Whittlesea: these so-called "stars"
Helena Whittlesea: : )
Scope Cleaver: Where it's going to go next
You: Scope I talked to that guy Sam Constellation
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scope is five stars!
You: of course I gave him my antiwikitarian take
You: and I showed him your birthday build
You: he was still learning to fly
Scope Cleaver: Yes I spoke with him recently
You: also he couldn't right click without a mouse that did that on the Mac and I had no idea how to help him
Scope Cleaver: He's probably having a hard time putting it all together.
You: well I gave him this whirlwind tour
You: I think he will end up saying like so many "There is a vast desert of crap punctuated by people doing things for the poor people of Nepal"
You: which I was trying to get him around
Clubside Granville: I found it odd Prok that Julia Hathor has new builds with big prims! I'm curious about where architecture is going, too!
You: I don't care for big prims
You: but they are here to stay
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh yes.
You: Julia has to use them she's too pirmmy
Helena Whittlesea: i never cared for gob
Ash Marat: ha!
Helena Whittlesea: : )
You: but has the corporate build era passed Scope?
Scope Cleaver: I wish SL would support them officially and let us use edit them
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, no way, Prok
You: well I mean the era of the big-ass corporate build
Tara Yeats: amen, Scope - there are definitely places they're very useful
Scope Cleaver: I am on the fence on whether they'll be another wave or if it will transform into something different.
You: to think probably nobody really chronicalled it properly
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm I don't think so, the difference is that the media doesn't care any more
You: are the edu builds replicating the same things?
You: it's true that thigns like Cigna are still building here
Helena Whittlesea: cigna. now THERE is an exciting company.
You: one thing communism always likes is big builds, Gwyn
Clubside Granville: Damn, didn't realize how late it got! I have servers to update! Thanks for the chat everyone, had lots of fun!
Scope Cleaver: But many developers are thinking hard about what to do next, i.e. to improve experience, to build better spaces and interfaces..
You: thanks Clubside
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Prok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: bye, Clubside!
Helena Whittlesea: sure sure club, you have a date with ayn rand's corpse!
Helena Whittlesea: : )
You: they like to dwarf the individual
Zed Night is Online
You: well one thing, they need to get rid of those concrete bleachers
Ash Marat: what was the 'era' of the corporate build? three intense months last fall?
You: my avatar's ass is sore
Helena Whittlesea: ha!
You: yes Ash
You: Reuters was one
You: American Apparel, etc
You: Sears
You: did Sears leave?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm not sure...
Ash Marat: funny. suckers. goofball webby landrush.
Helena Whittlesea: does rem k's place count as corporate? i saw a george michael video in there. that's... kinda close....
You: yes but it left some dollars that stuck here and there
Scope Cleaver: I am concerned about land a lot too, you know, how many avatar per m2 in SL and how that figures with architecture and traffic.
Helena Whittlesea: well we know where all the STICKY dollars came from....
Helena Whittlesea: er.. no pun intended...
You: hmm no Sears
You: but there is a prefab store selling the Sears tower on a sim called Endless Despair
You: now that's something
Ash Marat: ha, yeah, hel. now we're talking about the rel economy here.
Helena Whittlesea: wow, truth in advertising. finally
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahahahah
You: Scope the corporate sims never really had to worry about those limits, after their first opening
You: but I suppose it's worth tracking
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The problem, Prok, is that they don't know how to advertise their presence in SL,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and they don't want to listen
SparkleZ Dumpling is Online
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and, worse than that, they don't want to look with their own eyes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: what residents have done.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So... well, I'm not surprised with the bad results of the 'early adopters' :D
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The current batch is low-profile
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and wants metrics, and a ROI on what they've spent here :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The "Era of Media Splash" is over, since the media doesn't care.
Tara Yeats: Gwyneth - me neither - just another example of trying to talk *at* customers rather than looking for ways to have conversations
Helena Whittlesea: they need a good team of ethnographers
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
Helena Whittlesea: i'm sure they have someone on it.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: so much has been written, Helena...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: why don't they read it? :)
You: well you know there is still as much media as ever about SL
Helena Whittlesea: yeah. i'm more interested in what's been done. based on that, i'd guess the answer to your q is either 'not many' or it doesn't matter because they weren't reading for comprehension.
You: it's just about educational stuff and geeky stuff like interop now
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I know, Prok, or even more
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
You: it's not about the opening of this or that island or making a million
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "the first company in SL" doesn't cut it any more
You: althoug you do actually still see those articles too
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, exactly
You: for a time, it was "Car Crash Takes Second Life" and "Women Gains Second Life With Experimental
Scope Cleaver: Has the press attitude changed much toward Sl you think?
You: Medication"
You: in the Yahoo news feed -- but now it's picking up again
Tara Yeats: LOL Prok
Helena Whittlesea: the prevalence of books on a subject hardly precludes a legitimate need for actual competent people in that field to be hands-on, though, in any case.
Tara Yeats: or ... "join our church for a chance at a second life..."
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: After Life®
Helena Whittlesea: it's been done! i think there's a pretty famous book about that, too. : )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes! Still on the bestseller list!
Helena Whittlesea: it's been interesting y'all! gotta run.
Ash Marat: so long, all. enjoyed it.
Asil Ares is Online
You: yeah I need to blog or something
You: lol
Helena Whittlesea: have a good night folks!
Helena Whittlesea: get to blogging!
Helena Whittlesea: ; )
Helena Whittlesea: night all!
You: I want to put out a sears tower
You: maybe it would rent
Tara Yeats: good discussion!
Tara Yeats: LOL Prok - in Seattle the old Sears Tower is now Starbucks tower/corp offices
You: oh geez
Gwyneth Llewelyn: really?
Tara Yeats: yup, really
You: I love how Mitch Kapor called us all misfits
You: speak for yourself bub
Tara Yeats: it's not that big a building - maybe 10 stories tall, just the tower part
You: I'm not the one walking around Silicon Valley in a Hawaian shirt.
Tara Yeats: main blding is 3 or 4 stories
Tara Yeats: Sears kept part of it for a retail outlet, Office Despot has part of it
ladyyve LaFollette is Online
Sutherland Dam Tip Jar: Reading content of card "!tipjar_config", checking for configuration variables...
Sutherland Dam Tip Jar: Done reading configuration card.
katykiwi Moonflower: i thought his comments were offensive, i dont understand why he would say something so alienating
katykiwi Moonflower: maybe he wanted to distance from the sex and bad press
You: in his last speech he disparaged us for being willing to p ut up with so much pain
katykiwi Moonflower: presenting codespeak for a new future to court the corps
You: I dunno, the Lindens don't like us
You: we are extraneous
You: I realize that
Cocoanut Koala is Online
You: yes katy
You: *chorus* yes katy
katykiwi Moonflower: lol
You: he wanted to position the edu thing
katykiwi Moonflower: thats where i left off earlier before dinner and company
Tara Yeats: interesting katy - having always been a misfit, that's just "reality" in my personal experience! lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the educational aspect is the one that will make SL be around in 2020
katykiwi Moonflower: i consider myself to be pretty mainstream traditional not a misfit
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Academics are... reluctant to leave a technology, once they've adopted it
You: Gwyn, I think that's a real hoax myself
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmmh no it isn't
katykiwi Moonflower: if anything the system created me
You: I think they are a flash in the pan like corporations
SparkleZ Dumpling is Offline
You: yes, there will be some that winnow out
You: but I think as a mass thing it will not pan out
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm well
You: when was the last time you heard of an event at Harvard?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: not my experience in dealing with teh academics :)
You: where did that NMC have its conference? In Wonderland
You: which they admit isn't even as good as SL at this stage
Tara Yeats: Prok - did you know something like 80% (might be more) of UK colleges/universities now have a presence in SL?
You: maybe that's why UK has SL as second largest growing site
Eloise Pasteur is Online
You: one reason that is becasue in the UK you can drop a meme into the policy well at the top and make the whole system jerk
You: that's why Ren Zephyr has his policy institute, to put VWs into their priorities
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
You: there's only one guy in the government who decides all these things
Gwyneth Llewelyn: True.
You: he decides it for all those universities then likely
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, not exactly
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But, well, they work together very closely
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and
Gwyneth Llewelyn: once a large enough group reaches "critical mass"
You: Tara, can I fly to a sim now, and pay for college in Lindens and start earning a degree tomorrow?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and drop the meme, as you say,
You: if I can draw this dog?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that doing research in SL is a good thing
Gwyneth Llewelyn: everybody will do it — for half a decade
Cocoanut Koala is Offline
You: Here's the difference
You: the corporations had quarterly budgets
You: for which SL is a rounding error
Tara Yeats: Prok - don't know the answer to that - but I suspect the answer is no
You: universities have 2 year or even 3-5 year grants
Sweegy Manilow is Offline
You: so they will be stuck
You: when that flushes out, it will be like corporations
Crap Mariner is Offline
You: some will stay; most will not
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmmh
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well
You: well when the answer is yes, Tara, ping me!
Tara Yeats: LOL - it could be already - I"m just not that conversant in the specifics of who's here and what all is bieng done
You: you know Gwyneth I found that Language Lab thing to be truly a marvel
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You know, Prok, around here one of the most interesting research projects was "how to put your university in SL *without* a grant and do good research" lol
You: not a single RL name anywhere on the site
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes, they're good
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :D
You: well marvel in that it had not way of being checked1
You: well Tara but that's just it
You: everybody has this idea ther is all this wonderful edu stuff
You: but...it's elusive
You: everybody thinks it's...over there
You: yes well why have a grant?
Tara Yeats: Prok - I don't think it's elusive at all - it just isn't my area of expertise
You: you need $25 a month
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :D
You: I remain skeptical
Tara Yeats: talk to Fleep who *knows* what's going on in the SLed world
You: I do
You: and
You: I remain skeptical : )
Tara Yeats: no problem with that :-)
You: Fleep's Chilbo thing is more interesting than anything else
Second Life: Your region will restart in 5 minutes and 0 seconds for maintenance.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh oh
Tara Yeats: ooooh, rolling restart time! lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The dam is going to break :)
Tara Yeats: haha
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah well
Gwyneth Llewelyn: what an excuse to leave!....
Tara Yeats: yea, time to go sort out some website stuff
Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry, Prok, I'd love to stay, but LL is kicking us all out :)
You: geez
You: why is that I wonder