Chosing the Level of Unpredictability

I pretty much boycott the Lindens.

But I thought things have gotten so bad, I really needed to show up at Jack Linden's Office hour with a pitchfork and torch.

So I did.

He mouthed the usual platitudes.

The situation is dire.

Jack says he wants people to be able to chose the level of unpredictability. Really, these days, there really no better way of doing that than unchoosing Second Life.

Office hour transcript below the fold.

Izzy's Office Online Indicator: Thank you, Prokofy Neva, your message has been recorded, and will be sent when Cory Edo is online.

[What's that all about? Izzy Linden is Cory Edo? That's the message I got upon arrival at the Concierge services island, without even clicking on anything.)

Fontte Newbold: Whowhatwherewhenwhyhow?
Fontte Newbold: I was outside helping to move something.
Talarus Luan: Hiyas Qie
Fontte Newbold: Ah. Hey Qie, Squirrel, Proky
Qie Niangao: greetings, folks
Ordinal Malaprop is Online
Talarus Luan: Greetings, Morrigan
Squirrel Wood: Hello!
Morrigan Liebling: Hello Everyone :)
Rem Nightfire: hello
Talarus Luan: Hiyas Rem
Fontte Newbold: So is the statute of limitation up on the topic ban yet?
Talarus Luan shrugs
Talarus Luan: Those who don't know about it can claim ignorance and get away with starting it. :P
Rem Nightfire: hello talarus
Talarus Luan: Once the avalanche has begun, it is too late for the pebbles to vote. :D
Fontte Newbold: I do hope a BTE rep shows up.
Fontte Newbold: That would be icing.
Fontte Newbold: They're serving hardcore porn now.
Timo Daehlie: hello
Talarus Luan: Hiyas Timo
Fontte Newbold: Hey Timo.
Timo Daehlie: :))
Rem Nightfire: yes i saw that i wonder what AIM would think?
Fontte Newbold: I think action rates and because that's what AdultFriendFinder serves.
Qie Niangao: In some ways, BTE is kind of more straightforward about it, though: no alts, no BS: they're in advertising *and* extortion, unapologetically.
Fontte Newbold: They're all shady affiliates.
Talarus Luan: I sent some nice photos to Sharper Image and ShopNBC via email.
Timo Daehlie is Offline
Rem Nightfire: American Indian Movement
rm Sirbu: hi to all
Timo Daehlie is Online
Fontte Newbold: Hey rm
Rem Nightfire: hi rm
Talarus Luan: Yeah, I looked them up. I thought about sending some to them, too
Fontte Newbold: -rf *
Fontte Newbold: Err, sorry. ;)
Talarus Luan: Hiyas Rm
Rem Nightfire: i dont think they would be pleased at all
Talarus Luan: Hiyas Arawn
Fontte Newbold: That's the long tail at work.
Arawn Spitteler: Hi, Invisible Talarus
Qie Niangao: hiya, Ciaran
Arawn Spitteler wonders if Jack will finally rez in this seat
Fontte Newbold: Most vendors are shocked to find their ads popping up in malware installs, too.
Ciaran Laval: Hi Qie
Fontte Newbold: They license it out to a marketing company.
Fontte Newbold: That sublicenses it to another one.
Fontte Newbold: At around ten levels deep, you have people like BTE.
Rem Nightfire: hello timo
Fontte Newbold: It's poetic. A lot like the subprime crisis.
Timo Daehlie: :) hiya rem
rm Sirbu: hi timo
Fontte Newbold: wb, Proky.
Fontte Newbold: Off-topic: Who likes Google's new toy?
Arawn Spitteler: What toy that?
Fontte Newbold: "Lively"
You: Well, as I said, it has no real estate market, how Lively can it be ? Except, oops, my new name for SL is Deadly, as it has no real estate market now either
Timo Daehlie: virtual chambers lol
You:
http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2008/07/lively-and-dead.html
Fontte Newbold: You've been busy.
You: Ciaran, have you seen this JIRA problem:
http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-585
You: where the group tool bug on share is suddenly glorified as a feature?
Ciaran Laval: lol no I'll take a look
Fontte Newbold: That picture so reminds me of ActiveWorlds, Prok.
Fontte Newbold: It's actually kinda chilling.
Fontte Newbold: They used to market virtual saloons way way WAY back as one of their standard packs.
Talarus Luan: Jack is late... and no sign this time. :P
Fontte Newbold: Obviously, Google waited until SL5B to announce this thing.
Fontte Newbold: I blame traffic.
Talarus Luan: Heh.. you probably don't realize how true that may be. :P
Talarus Luan: Hiyas Yohan
Timo Daehlie: ola mr yohan
ALOE Box is Offline
Fontte Newbold: Actually, it's a deliberate play on words.
rm Sirbu: hi yohan
Yohan Pintens: move along folks, nothing to see here
Fontte Newbold: Heya, Yohan.
IYan Writer is Offline
Fontte Newbold: Oh yes. And I still need to figure the right Linden to suggest "Reiser" as a last name.
Talarus Luan: Pharoah Yohan I
You: oh but that's just one of the room shells, they have lots, and I imagine soon you will be able to upload your own drawings
You: I just happened to pick that one
Talarus Luan: It is based on rooms, eh? How.... MUD of them :P
Fontte Newbold: For two years of work on Google's part, the best I can describe it is "shallow"
Fontte Newbold: Not quite.
Fontte Newbold: It's deliberately 3D chat.
Fontte Newbold: So they call each "world" a "room"
Talarus Luan: Chatworlds
Fontte Newbold: It's all so very... 90s of them.
Virtouse Lilienthal: hey Chaos
Chaos Mohr: hiya Virtouse :)
Fontte Newbold: And Frans was on about how it'll be revolutionary because they want to bring Google Apps into each "room"
Fontte Newbold: What a crock.
Virtouse Lilienthal: hey all
Chaos Mohr: Yohan :)
Yohan Pintens: do not count google out yet
Fontte Newbold: I would have liked it more as an April Fool's like the Google Gulp.
Talarus Luan: Hiyas Virtouse
Timo Daehlie: hi Virt ;)
Yohan Pintens: they have the engineering talent and money to burn
Chaos Mohr: hi Timo :)
Timo Daehlie: & chaos ;)
Virtouse Lilienthal: Hey Timo :)
Fontte Newbold: I don't count them out on an actual virtual world.
Talarus Luan: Yes, but that is usually how most flops begin..
Fontte Newbold: Just that this is not it.
Talarus Luan: Too much money and talent to burn
Fontte Newbold: It reads as a Google subcontractor with the Google Label.
Fontte Newbold: Hell, the female avatar looks exactly like IMVU's.
Ordinal Malaprop is Offline
Kyrion Yalin: hallo
Arawn Spitteler: Who's IMVU?
Talarus Luan: A more mature 3D chat world.
Fontte Newbold:
http://www.imvu.com/
Talarus Luan: mature as in been around a while, not X-rated
Fontte Newbold: This all works on one very clear demographic: MySpace kiddies.
Fontte Newbold: I can see it in that respect.
Rem Nightfire: is jack here? i thought i saw him near.
Talarus Luan: Not yet
Fontte Newbold: Yet.
Fontte Newbold: Off to the left.
Arawn Spitteler: We done?
Jack Linden: hi folks
Qie Niangao: Hello, Jack
Rem Nightfire: greetings jack
Yohan Pintens: hey Jack, did you have a chance to try that planter yet?
Talarus Luan: Hiyas
Arawn Spitteler: Hi, Jack
Jack Linden: rough login today, took me a few goes
Virtouse Lilienthal: hi jack
Mandi Shepherd: hello Jack
Fontte Newbold: Obviously Jack was too busy in Lively.
Talarus Luan: Ouch :-/
Virtouse Lilienthal: haha
Fontte Newbold: Ouch indeed.
Virtouse Lilienthal: Good one fontte
Virtouse Lilienthal: :D
Jack Linden: haha Fontte, nope
Fontte Newbold: Lively didn't even warrant a boot into Windows.
Fontte Newbold: Very.... "meh."
Talarus Luan: I'd like to put a boot into Windows... or two
Fontte Newbold: Yep.
Jack Linden: have any of you taken a look at it?
Jack Linden: thoughts?
Arawn Spitteler: Are they ready for the Open Grid?
Fontte Newbold: Even though I refused to boot into it, I had a look at the lists. It reads as targetted at the MySpace demographic as an IMVU killer, not as much an SL clone.
Yohan Pintens: congratulations on the 44% increase in land mass Jack
Fontte Newbold: Indeed.
Virtouse Lilienthal: and 0% userbase growth
Virtouse Lilienthal: rofl
Ciaran Laval: Haven't seen it yet but they seem to be aiming for existing social networking capabilities which is going to be attractive to business and consumers
Fontte Newbold: I caught EA with a "recruitment island"
Fontte Newbold: I laughed.
Fontte Newbold: Hard.
Arawn Spitteler: If 44% increase is all Open Space, does that equal 11%?
Fontte Newbold: So very fitting for the evil gaming empire.
Talarus Luan: Hehe
Virtouse Lilienthal: arawn no because it is sqm they are measuring
Moundsa Mayo: Hi all.
Jack Linden: hi moundsa
Fontte Newbold: It'd be nice to get a figure for server increases.
Fontte Newbold: And raw watts this all consumes.
Ciaran Laval: Some land owners have been converting their islands to open spaces so that's four times as much land
Fontte Newbold: I bet we could power more than a couple third world countries with the power draw for the grid.
Arawn Spitteler: 16,000 should be about 4 megawatts?
ALOE Box is Offline
You: Why would anyone congratulate the Lindens on destroying the mainland communities and private island rentals with 44 percent of open spaces? ! This is incredibly destructive, and I'd like to hear if you have a plan for salvaging the mainland now Jack, given that Zee basically signalled the death of the Mainland by saying LL will no longer promote premium accounts.
Fontte Newbold: It's a bit hard to get a back of the envelope calculation without stats on power draw per server and distribution of said server types.
Yohan Pintens: one persons destruction is another persons golden goose?
Ciaran Laval: the Golden Goose will be deceased if this carries on
You: They won't be so golden when they find that the people they sold them to can't resell them and word spreads they don't have the peformance being implied.
Jack Linden: The mainland is certainly not going to die, a large part of our focus is going to be around mainland
Talarus Luan: I saw a good quote by Margaret J. Wheatley on a Mainostaulu billboard: "Destroying is a necessary function in life. Everything has its season, and all things eventually lose their effectiveness and die."
Yohan Pintens: shh don't let that secret out! Its not like that was already in the blog comments :)
You: but even if the Lindens are merely greedily responding to cybersexing silo seekers, they still haev to think about how they are destroying business elsewhere, you can't kill the goose that lays the golden egg elsewhere.
Jack Linden: openspaces is as much about choice as anything. mainland simlarly is an area where we need more choice
Talarus Luan: I thought "How self-prescient". :P
You: Jack, what the HELL kind of choice do we have on mainland with your refusal to police ad extortion that is all BACK?
Virtouse Lilienthal: Well i wonder what this "land services" you're facing on are
Fontte Newbold: Re: BTE is serving hardcore porn now. It's wonderful.
Yohan Pintens: don't hold back Prok, say how you really feel
You: Yohan, are you in business? or do you just dispense little social Darwinist harmies to other people, hoping they will be forced out of business but never you by "disruptive technology"
Mandi Shepherd thinks im in the wrong place for my problem ... have a great day everyine
Virtouse Lilienthal: we do more business like you might dream of
Mandi Shepherd: everyone*
Jack Linden: ad farming, and how advertising works inworld, especially on mainland, is something that we have been discussing for a while. I would expect to see us talking publicly about that topic within the next week or two
Jack Linden: we're extremely aware of the issue
Talarus Luan: Oh?
You: Seriously, Jack what is your plan for the mainland besides providing $10/hour for your out-of-work former corporate build friends in DPW and enriching Currency and Supply Linden?!
Fontte Newbold: Hopefully when Robin gets back from her vacation. She had some very interesting things at her office hours.
Dytska Vieria: talk is old, something needs to be done about it.
You: I just spent the entire 4th of July weekend battling griefers who still occur regularly who can now make hay out of the group tool exploits that you now have pronounced are no longer a bug but should be put in as a "desire feature" -- the idiotic hippie "share with group"
You:
http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-585
Jack Linden: We will be increasingly acting as a true estate manager for the linden estate, so directly tackling issues that affect the quality of that experience
Jack Linden: DPW is one tiny part of what we want to do for mainland
You: I mean, you didn't do the job of utterly killing off rental businesses with your land glut, do you seek to kill it off fully now by letting the gruop tool expoloit run rampant and fail to have any plan to promote premiums?
Yohan Pintens: DPW built a cool park in Da Boom
Fontte Newbold: Translation being, more bodies into the meat grinder I hope.
Jack Linden: The group tool needs addressing, I agree
You: DPW built a totally lame-ass juice bar in Brownlee instead of letting residents who own land on those sims have a say in something really usable
Ciaran Laval: Are there any cost implications to increased estate management?
Fontte Newbold: !
You: Seriously, Jack you used to care about promoting communities. did you have a say in this wild sale of humper bunkers?
You: What is the plan for communities of people when you just have thousands of cybersex silos?
Jack Linden: we're talking about that actually. about specifically how DPW builds for the local communtity rather than just building what we think it good. We want to build for the locals, we just need to find scaleable ways to get that input
You: I mean, it's great that SL is a good Massively for Shut-ins an all that, but to turn the ENTIRE thing over to humping, well, it's not Mitch Kapor's better world is it?
Jack Linden: I have a say yes, and Prok, you know how I see the mainland. I consider it vital and something we should (and will) invest in substantially
Jack Linden: it's just a long list of things to address
You: Jack, you just killed the premiums
You: dead
You: how is that caring about the mainland?
You: Zee Linden, your fellow Lindens, declared the premiums dead, in favour of cybersex silos
You: er excuse me they are probably used to prototype business
Jack Linden: Premiums as a product needs work, we need to look at how that offering works and get back to offering something with higher value
You: no doubt Zha prototypes business on them helping to gut out LL's code and suck it into IBM
You: I'm trying to decide whether torch or pitchfork is better for this meeting
Fontte Newbold: Pass the popcorn, Tal.
You: Why have you allowed the Bay City to be sold at extortionist prices, like Brown? What happened there? Can't zoning include price capping when it is Linden zoned? What's up with that, truly?
Tal Chernov: there's popcorn?!
Fontte Newbold: The other Tal. :p
Tal Chernov: oo more than one Tal
You: the first thing you get on lame help island nowadays is a torch, and boy will that come in handy later
Jack Linden: Auctions are exactly that, they are currently the way we sell new areas, zoned or otherwise. We intend much more zoned work, and those too i expect will be auctioned
You: oh! but I forgot I have now the perfect Linden Office Hour Gesture
GnuSense Shepherd: no pitchforks?
You: Jack
You: by putting those auctions in Linden denominations all you do is suck out old casino and banking dollars and enrich LL
Qie Niangao: well, the Bay City buyers had better clear their costs quickly... the novelty of zoned mainland can't last (we pray)
You: it's a tiny tiny percentage of buyers and sellers, and a lot never gets sold, it sits there in deep freeze
You: I'm all for a free market, but this isn't free, it's synthetic, YOU decided to put it in dollars and YOU decided actually not to make it free by enabling it to be extorted.
Jack Linden: So if not an open auction, how would you see us selling new land?
You: extortion is not a free market; it is an unfree market
Jack Linden: What would be more fair than auctions?
You: A requirement of dollar payments would be one break on that
You: US dollar
Jack Linden: so a US dollar auction?
You: and you could also cap the auctions, or cap resales
Tal Chernov: just rememebr its your choice to continue to pour your money into SL or not
You: What has happened to your policy on extortion?
Jack Linden: How do you have a winner, if you cap the bidding?
Squirrel Wood: Prokofy, I would have to insist on using euros. not us dollars.
Yohan Pintens: it can be a hippy commune like auction, everyone can share and not take baths
You: What we have now Jack is a lot of losers, and land in baron deep freeze, actually sign griefer deep freeze and hobbyists deep freeze, it's not normal
Fontte Newbold: Well, the L$ is technically tied to the US Dollar.
Fontte Newbold: For better or worse.
You: you can have the bid that is the first come first served
Virtouse Lilienthal: I would insist on charging the sameprice to anyone no matter where he comes from
Morrigan Liebling: how is caping not controlling the market?
Jack Linden: but then it is just a straight sale, first person to bid the cap wins
Talarus Luan: Ehh.. no thanks FCFS systems suck
Talarus Luan: camping galore..
Talarus Luan: Did that in Horizons
Fontte Newbold: See: Horizons.
Jack Linden: which totally favours whomever is online at that time
Fontte Newbold: Yep.
You: Morrigan, I'm all for not controlling markets. But what we have now is in fact A CONTROLLED MARKET, where ad extortionists and a tiny handful of barons and Lindens utterly control the market.
Talarus Luan: Yep, that was one of the major complaints
You: That IS A CONTROLLED MARKET
Qie Niangao: I'm not following how the Bay City buying frenzy was extortion. Some very bad decisions were made, and some very boring builds, but... the high prices were just stupidity, weren't they? how were they nefarious in that case?
Ciaran Laval: How about you design an "It's a knockout" type course between those online and first one there wins
You: all this hang-wringing and Friedmanitism can't disguise that
You: Some of them are by ad griefers, extorting the view once again
Fontte Newbold: I propose win by Chess Boxing.
Jack Linden: hehe Ciaran
You: some are buy and hold deep freezers who already kept Brown from the public for more than a year
Talarus Luan: The Land Barons don't worry me so much. There's more than enough land outside of their control for me to choose from.
Morrigan Liebling: k
You: Obviously there are always problems in any controls you ever put on this market, but you have to also confront that you have made it NOT FREE if you have it concentrated in the hands of only a few griefers and barons
Fontte Newbold: Re, FCFS: Prim Banks.
Talarus Luan: ..if I want to choose not to deal with them, that is
Tegg Bode: FREE JOHN BROWN! :)
Fontte Newbold: s/JOHN BROWN/HANS REISER/
You: All you people suddenly so concerned about a free land market criticize capitalism every other day of the week and rant about media concentration and telecoms, so spare me.
Jack Linden: As i said, we will be addressing the advertising issue. We've heard a lot of feedback on it, we understand the issue, we want to improve the mainland and yes, we intend to do something about it
Talarus Luan: Land Griefers I do agree have a more significant negative impact.
Morrigan Liebling: ok, I get your point now :)
Fontte Newbold: Re, the advertising issue.
Talarus Luan: Just like any griefers.
Rem Nightfire: thank you jack
You: And what is that thing, Jack? Sorry, we've been on this for 3 years
Fontte Newbold: Can we get BTE banned?
Jack Linden: (i heard whomever that was talking in voice)
Fontte Newbold: Please?
Yohan Pintens: there is currently 28,034,016 sq.m of land for sale, its not all at extortion prices, why not buy some cheaper stuff instead if you must
You: you have a policy in place; you no longer enforce it
Fontte Newbold: Porn and malware that is so blatant, hurts.
You: Uh, gosh, Yohan I do buy cheap stuff. What do YOU do?
Rem Nightfire: yes
Yohan Pintens: you've bought from me Prok
Ciaran Laval: If people were buying cheap land premiums would be going up not down.
You: I'm saying that the Lindens showcase is essentially a laughing stock
Moundsa Mayo: How about try some regions with different selling/zoning controls to test what works, how well it works, and what the outcome is?
Dytska Vieria: I would like to see a ban on banlines on parcels set for sale.
Jack Linden: Prokofy, as you know, I'm not going to preannounce things during office hours. We will discuss it on the blog first of all
You: of extortionist prices enabling people only to bitch about the high cost of land, they haven't even bothered to dump more of those Bay City sims to glut THAT area instead of glutting ELSEWHERE
Foolish Frost is Offline
Talarus Luan: Well, honestly, I have some hope; it is nice to hear that something is in the works, now. :D
You: hey if you want to glut and lower land prices start on YOURSELVES first
Jack Linden: the point is, we're not blind to the issues of advertising, but it's not as simple as just banning things.
You: Sure it is Jack
You: this is your platform, your house rules, your TOS
Jack Linden: Bay City will expand. And there will be other city areas
You: declare it spam and disturbance of the peace. CS no. 2, boot, ban, block, end of story
Jack Linden: other zoned spaces too
Dytska Vieria: Give them a warning and then ban it, just like gambling was done
Fontte Newbold: Yes, but there's also that evil balance of capitalism and freedom with rules.
Fontte Newbold: We have the same problem with protection of copyright.
Fontte Newbold: Too many rules, and you screw over the creators market.
Rem Nightfire: will small plot extortion be part of the announcement jack?
You: Perhaps you could stop the windfall ofnewbies diverted specifically to Miramare and 2 other city sims Jack too and even out the newbies so that you don't compete so unfairly with your own residents -- but of course the entire Bay City thing is competition with your own residents, how do you really hope to retain them?
Jack Linden: Exactly fontte. When we make decisions t affects thousands of regions, tens of thousands of users, causes huge support load and has to be right.
Fontte Newbold: At least in theory, and empirically in many cases.
Jack Linden: So sometimes it takes a little while.
You: Jack, you *had a policy about extortion in May and you are not ENFORCING that policy!
Fontte Newbold: Though counterpoint, there are some pretty flagrant abusers that are actionable now.
Talarus Luan: I agree with what Desmond Shang said here:
http://forums.secondlife.com/showpost.php?p=2064802&postcount=50
You: the extortions first flew under the radar taking the sale price off -- but guess what, the sale prices are all back on $9999! so ban those repeat offenders!
You: what is hard or complex or deep thinking about that?!
Yohan Pintens: I think some residents LL doesn't want to keep and after today I can understand why
Fontte Newbold: I still think it feels like telehubs.
Jack Linden: We are. in fact, some 450,000m of advertising came down, a further 200,000m was repurposed by the owners.We also saw a lot of land sold off or abandoned. But we still have work to do there. it was a start.
You: Why are we all crippled and have our land values utterly diminished to make the world safe for SLIPPCat and Ancient Shiner and Cytherea and Chrischun?!
Fontte Newbold: Granted.
You: Jack, fly around the new sims, they are ALL BACK
You: they even came back from old sims where you had "repurposed them" -- it's a shill
Moundsa Mayo: Will viewscapes be specifically considered in new policies? If not identified as a definitive characteristic right from the start, their protection is at best marginal.
Talarus Luan: Yeah. I don't think the statistics tell the whole story.
Qie Niangao: Prok is right: back with a vengeance... even in old sims
Tal Chernov: dunno if was covered b4 but what about setting a limit on land sqm to L$ sales to the exchange of usd to L$ at current market
You: I have them not only back everywhere I and neighbours had chased them from; I have them buying more land and taunting me with ugly signs further
You: it's insane, and your inaction just sabotages us
Ciaran Laval: Well it's mostly banlines and extortion parcels next to my land, but I do see ad towers sneaking back
Tal Chernov: so ppl cant set land for sale at unreal prices
Tegg Bode: Yes they are spreading through the oldest continet like cancer
Jack Linden: Yes, i've seen the recent activity. I'm a resident too, I had advertising next to my own land. :) I'm not unaware at all, but as I said, we have been debating it a lot and we will be dealing with it further
Fontte Newbold: Price caps are hard because then you're directly screwing with the market.
Rem Nightfire: along the roads especfially
Rem Nightfire: especially
You: You don't have to cap the market by capping prices if you develop policies about Linden zoned sims as a separate thing -- it's really an outrage that you get to zone, and we don't, and you can't offer these non-cuttable sims to the public.
GnuSense Shepherd: Land cutters are the problem, ads are just the result.
Fontte Newbold: I liked a different approach, a la prim penalties for owning such a small cut of an area.
Timo Daehlie: *laughs
Jack Linden: Zoning is key, i agree. And we intend to push much more in that direction
You: Jack, seriously, it's truly an outrage, we've been screaming about ads and zoning for 3 years, and your response is to close your ears and say "Guess we'll make a new Linden-zoned continent that will cost a bunch, buh-bye" and not zone anything but yourselves.
Fontte Newbold: Cut it down to one or no prims on a 16, new sims only until the matter can be tested thoroughly.
Jack Linden: I think that we have to offer a wider choice of experience, and let people choose the level of unpredictability in some ways, that their land carries
Fontte Newbold: With a few other restrictions.
Jack Linden: And zoning is a big part of that
You: No Jack, we need to select the level of unpredictability of Linden Lab
Yohan Pintens: you have to get new players to enjoy the many new experiences is what you really need
Moundsa Mayo: Can mainland neighbors take any actions that establish a locally binding and enforceable Community Standards set?
Timo Daehlie: why were umniks vcubes returned and are others still allowed ?
Jack Linden: We just have to be very clear about how we scale to enforce it in such a way that we don't simply fail to maintain that zoning
Jack Linden: and that takes planning
Tegg Bode: Landcutters are the adfarmers, they are either same people or in bed together
You: you dump land by 40 percent value overnight, you increase the land mass with empty calories by 44 percent with no plan; you dump premiums with no plan, etc. That's the unpredictable problem, not other residents.
Timo Daehlie: true tegg
GnuSense Shepherd: that is not an accurate statement Tegg
Timo Daehlie: he is right ..
Ciaran Laval: We can't have too many new players, the concurrency issues are making the platforrm creak as it is
Timo Daehlie: they exchange parcels ..
Fontte Newbold: Not quite but close.
GnuSense Shepherd: Ok, but I have not seen it first hand.
Fontte Newbold: Land cutters provide the supply.
You: Yes they are often in bed together, or else indifferent barons, I caught one cutting up Tupi the other day which of course opened it to ad viewjackers in a heartbeat
Fontte Newbold: Ad farmers provide the demand.
Jack Linden: man, that's a lot of text whizzing by.
Yohan Pintens: maximize your chat window Jack
You: Moundsa, the covenant feature isn't turned on in the mainland sims
Fontte Newbold: If creating a tightly-knit market can be defined as in bed together, that statement evaluates to true.
Moundsa Mayo: A 512 with fifty different ads on it is at LEAST as objectional (to all but hose who profit from them AND DO NOT LIVE THERE) as a 16m2 with three. So land cutting is NOT the entire problem.
You: if you want a covenant you have to take an island
Fontte Newbold: Otherwise, false.
Tegg Bode: If you were an adfarmer why wouldn't you run landbots and pick your own land, it's too much of a coincidence any land next to a road gets brought and the road edge skinned off it.
Jack Linden: some of gthe recent land cutting we have seen, is definitely not okay and we will be moving to deal with that through governance
Ciaran Laval: Land cutting is the problem, always has been
Jack Linden: Continents can have covenants
Fontte Newbold: The economics of land cutting are a problem.
You: yes Mounds, the DO NOT LIVE HERE part really torques me, they profit not only by extortion on sims where they don't live or work, they profit by hijacking YOUR traffic to YOUR venues to look at their ads.
Jack Linden: Mainland areas can have covenants too
Moundsa Mayo: If residents can help the governance effort in any constructive way PLEASE let us know what to do, and when!!
You: only on notecards Jack, how are you suggesting this otherwise? not as a tool
Fontte Newbold: You get ad farms and proxy servers grossly outside the scope of sane script limits.
Jack Linden: We will moundsa
GnuSense Shepherd: if you did not have land cutters doing what they do, then ads cannot be placed, especially when the region community cares about the surroundings.
Fontte Newbold: 16s are by design supposed to be negligible pieeces of land, yes?
Qie Niangao: GTeam needs to be given some latitude and new policy direction, at least. their hands are tied to deal with the issue now.
Fontte Newbold: -e
Talarus Luan: Personally, I thought about having the land owners in any particular region set their own covenant. If they want public billboard advertising, let them vote for it. Basically a Regional Landowner's Association. I typically hate those things in RL, myself, but meh.
Timo Daehlie: its not a must to buy them and put a 40 meter obelisk on it gnusense
Fontte Newbold: GnuSense: At the end of the day, it comes down to bringing use in line with price.
Jack Linden: Most likely as a combination of viewer change to clearly display the zoning, AR types for zoning infringement, and of course from our side some clear SLAs around what people should expect when Linden zoning is abused
You: Desmond Shang summed it up on the forums: tell the guy in the mainland to go on the grid and delete all the ad farms; if he has trouble getting that simple message, get the guy in the next cubicle to do that.
Jack Linden: Talarus, that debate about whether zoning can happen for old regions is tricky
Ciaran Laval: A 512 isn't going to be sold for 320,000 Linden dollars, not even in bay city but 16m plots are up for sale for 9,999 so land cutting is very much the problem
Fontte Newbold: You should have the right to advertise, but not to eat a large sum of mainland for dirt cheap, and outside the scope of what the land is intended as.
Talarus Luan: yes, I know
Qie Niangao: then zoning isn't the only answer
You: I fail to see how you can tolerate any further listening to hundreds of owners of mainland parcels screaming for years on this now, and not be willing to put up with the 2 1/2 ad cutters who will scream because you haev "unfairly" deleted and banned them. Which is it?
Moundsa Mayo: How about a viewer change tooptionally inhibit rendering of ANY advertisement?!!
Qie Niangao: or else sansara is lost
Jack Linden: Whether a whole region can vote itself into a zoning - it's something we have talked about
Talarus Luan: That's why Zoning CAN NOT be the only viable answer
You: so 32 ad farmers on a 512 get 32 votes, Jack? thanks
Talarus Luan: It would be based on total landownership
Fontte Newbold: A little back of the envelope math here:
Talarus Luan: You vote with your sqm :)
Virtouse Lilienthal: Jack you at LL should really consider to make land just sellable in 512sqm at a minimum.
Talarus Luan: That makes it rough on the little guys, though
Tegg Bode: Trouble with a covenant is getting 30 owners including the adfarmers to agree. A sim is nice and quiet with 10 or so real landowners, but adfarmers move in and it becomes a nightmare
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Fontte Newbold: With a base 512, you can create 32-36 ad farm plots.
Talarus Luan: ..though some "little guys" I don't mind it being rough on. ;)
Fontte Newbold: With one sim's worth of tier: 4,128 to 4,746.
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Fontte Newbold: That's a freaking lot for $295 per month.
You: The task is not to think of a zillion fake isolated and marginal use cases, Tegg; the task is to take the overwhelming majority of people who wish to covenant on their mainland sims such as to ban and eject and remove ad farmers and enable them to do so
Fontte Newbold: (Actually, $307 plus tax, but you see my point)
Moundsa Mayo: My individual response to ALL advertisement not on the sellers own land is to NEVER, EVER buy or recommend those products or services.
Fontte Newbold: 302*
You: Moundsa, half the time they aer to fake or outworld Internet spam pages, they aren't really businesses in fact
You: real businesses have no need of junk ads
Talarus Luan: Agreed
Jack Linden: Prok, re. overwhelming majority, i tend to agree. And as i said, I expect us to be in a position to act on it soon
You: even Bart Heart who used to put ugly signs for sale to his birthday of $122368 to advertise getting away from the ugly mainland to his wonderful islands gave up that practice.
Fontte Newbold: The fact is, ad farms as they exist today are the definition of spam.
Fontte Newbold: Low action rates, high volume.
Jack Linden: I can't say much more than that, sadly.
Moundsa Mayo: Time for some old-fashioned organizing in here ... find out how many residents would never like to see ANY remote ad ...
Fontte Newbold: And subverting the system.
Dytska Vieria: ISP's block spammers but blocking outbound TCP port 25 and putting it in their TOS that the port is blocked. Why can't LL ban add farms and put it in their TOS??
Yohan Pintens: sure you can Jack, you're the boss!
You: Well what can you sadly tell us about group tool exploits?
Jack Linden: hehe yohan
Teresa Graziadei: I would like to know why *any* billboard kind of ad *anywhere* is useful in 2L? Nobody uses them. Why not just ban them all?
Yohan Pintens: btw, did you try my planter?
Talarus Luan: Well, it IS news that you are preparing for action. All I can say is that I hope you make it a good one;
Jack Linden: which specific group exploit are you referring to prok?
You: Yes, Jack, you are Director of Customer Relations, good Lord, I remember you when you were a wee lad just liaising with Toast and Jauni in the Dore welcome area, who stands in your way?!
Tegg Bode: Ebay & Weightwatchers didn't seem to know adfarmers were advertising it here, I sent them pictures and nothing happened for a while, but seems they are no longer advertised, maybe that adfarmer ahas gone.
Ciaran Laval: Teresa do you mean by a billboard?
Fontte Newbold: I'm glad my ISP doesn't block port 25. I'm one of maybe five people in this locality that runs a legitimate mailserver.
Teresa Graziadei: I mean all of the visual ads
Fontte Newbold: But even outbound -- I get blocked because of my reverse mapping.
Fontte Newbold: Anyway!
Teresa Graziadei: I don't see that they are of use for anybody
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Teresa Graziadei: we find things by searching, or going there
Teresa Graziadei: nobody goes around reading ads
You: Clearly Zee Lindens notion of selling "products" that don't include premium accounts which = mainland is a BIG obstacle.
Teresa Graziadei: why have them?
Jack Linden: Teresa, people do use them. they get clicks. advertising in itself is not the issue, the way it is done is the issue
Fontte Newbold: Because there is a market for them.
Dytska Vieria: I run mail systems for a large ISP, and spam just isnt tolerated - anybody that spams gets suspended.
Fontte Newbold: That market isn't necessarily residents clicking ads.
Ciaran Laval: Teresa there's a board over there indicating what Linden estate members are online, do you think we should all search for them by name?
Fontte Newbold: Just making a bunch of gobeshites at the top of the long tail think they are.
You: Jack, they click to find out who the !@#@$$% devaluing their land are
You: the ads more often than not go to malware sites and spam sites out on the Internet, how does that help SL?!
Teresa Graziadei: no, that is exaggerated
Fontte Newbold: At least, speaking of BTE specifically.
Fontte Newbold: BTE, specifically, is the only one I've seen serving malware.
Teresa Graziadei: I am talking about the big visual blights, let´s not split hairs
Jack Linden: ..and we have to draw a line between Mrs Miggins putting a sales board outside her store, and a large network advertiser with micro parcels in many regions
You: yes speak of BTE specifically! there, you are being asked to fund AIM, which is a violent extremist group that applauds violence against FBI agents
You: that alone should shut it down
Ciaran Laval: Well it's important to split hairs before some ridiculous policy is introduced that is overreaching
Teresa Graziadei: well let me put it another way
Talarus Luan: Ciaran, we've been back and forth on this issue for a while. Strawmen don't help you make your case, as people aren't against proper and fair use of things like signs.
GnuSense Shepherd: wow Prok, I didnt realize that, thats not good at all.
Teresa Graziadei: there is more visual pollution than ads
Jack Linden: plus a lot of current advertising on micro parcels, is not actually advertising (the intent is more tosell land than really sell advertising)
Fontte Newbold: It's easy to say, no outdoor ads on X number of facings advertising something other than the land.
Qie Niangao: (of course it's ripping-off AIM's logo, like half the western US)
You: Go and read Cytherea's signs -- "donate to help the American Indian Movement"
Teresa Graziadei: I don't know how to legislate against it, but it annoys me every day
Tegg Bode: I think advertising in world can work to an extent, if you think of the corporate /market zones on the net in snowcrash, cyberpunk & shadowrun, Gibsons work, yes it may be a maze of neon, but when the same sign is repeated 30 times in one sim it's just arrogance.
Yohan Pintens: Jack, can't you just use a common sense policy, that would solve everything
Teresa Graziadei: maybe the issue is bigger than we are talking about
Ciaran Laval: Talarus please, you don't think people should be allow3ed to have adveerts on their own land for other sims so let's not get onto strawman nonsense
Jack Linden: Yohan.. yes
You: oh that may be, but either way, it's not good, whether it is self-enrichment hustling Indian insignia, or actually supporting AIM, which I feel is a group calling for violence.
Fontte Newbold: Hence, "outdoor advertising."
Talarus Luan:
http://etakeh-oh.net/adless/?page_id=5
Proposal on the bottom of the page
Talarus Luan: No, you took that out of context
Yohan Pintens: I am glad we had this conversation Jack, thank you all for coming, my hour is up.
You: I dunno, I suppose the Lindens want to free Leonard Peltier like they'd free Mummiah.
Talarus Luan: Read the proposal, Ciaran.
Moundsa Mayo: YES!! Allow advertising ONLY ON PREMISES and in Search!! And zone the ON-SITE advertising, too, and enforce!
Virtouse Lilienthal: xD
Fontte Newbold: Just as a bit of a nerdy, landlawyer sort of thing -- it'd be nice to have a comprehensive plan regarding land use restrictions.
Talarus Luan: It clears up your misconceptions about our stance
Fontte Newbold: That is how they do it in the real world.
Teresa Graziadei: Moundsa, you are going in a direction I can see as useful
Fontte Newbold: Of course, comprehensive plans are specifically zoning laws.
You: Jack, if you won't zone land, can you zone signs? Say that no sign can every go anywhere but 64 m from a road or in a commercial sim? to mitigate it
Rem Nightfire: and height restrictions
Jack Linden: Prok, we will zone land as i said, but yes, it's also likely that clear code of conduct rules for advertising would be a part of it
Fontte Newbold: I'd be nice to get the low hanging fruit implemented at least.
Fontte Newbold: Such as no banlines on land for sale.
Fontte Newbold: Or ignore parcel.
Moundsa Mayo: I AM a capitalist! I am all for legitimate business, commensurate profits, and equal opportunity! But I despise the despoilers, and they actually ruin the market for others AND them selves, eventually.
Teresa Graziadei: if you zone, is it to be retroactive?
Fontte Newbold: Or even no banlines on a 16m parcel.
Qie Niangao: yes... no access restrictions on land for sale.
Fontte Newbold: Take a lot of the current headache out of it.
Jack Linden: the ban lines thing is frustrating. we need to be able to toggle ban lines off as we can with parcel lines
Chrischun Fassbinder: Moundsa, well said.
Ciaran Laval: There's no need for access restrictions on land for sale to anyone
Tegg Bode: If advertisers want a billboard or sign that they would normally put on a 16m let them pay a larger plot owner to host it for them :)
You: yes Moundsa I agree with you on that, it is not an open market when synthetically privileging extortionists out of some rampant extremism anarcho-capitalist idea
Fontte Newbold: Any word on a Linden tech to do that.
Fontte Newbold: I mean, we're talking easy here for some of those.
Virtouse Lilienthal: Bannlines toogling: Cool a server side feature which can be disabled by anone at will
You: If that's well said Chrischun you can take your towers off sims where you do not live or work or have any land other than your lousy 16 m2 hijacking the view and parasiting off other people's businesses.
Rem Nightfire: start with plandz
Squirrel Wood: Try to walk through 10 mainland sims in a straight line. If you succeed in doing that without hitting a single banline... you are very, very lucky.
Moundsa Mayo: But one APPRPRIATE place for governance, is in SOME regulation imposition and enforcement ...
Fontte Newbold: Is Austin present?
Jack Linden: Agreed, some of these small changes will go a long way.
You: One problem is that idiotic zigzag Linden road, that has to be retired as a concept.
Jack Linden: And many are easy to do
Timo Daehlie: dr statement ?
Beyers Sellers is Online
Fontte Newbold: I wouldn't mind the skit he did at Robin's repeated here.
Qie Niangao giggles.
Jack Linden: Roads are amazingly popular with residents, I get huge numbers of requests for Linden roads
GnuSense Shepherd: yes I love roads.
Timo Daehlie: they only stay a day clean
Fontte Newbold: They're mostly psychological.
Fontte Newbold: Rather than functional.
Tegg Bode: I diagree, we need more roads so these clowns can't get a monopoly by ruining the few we had, if we had no roads they'd be doing waterways, then we should remove waterways too?
Chrischun Fassbinder: Prokofy, my builds server a function, they are not ad farms as I do not have more than one per sim. Much as you dislike me personally I find it fitting you'll change the definition of ad farmer or extortist as it fits your branding and name calling. :) [LOL Chrischun has devolved a new distraction from his crimes, insisting he only has "one per sim," as if that salvages the situation; his builds ARE ad towers, and not for businesses on the sims where they are located and not even for inworld businesses; he cuts up the entire mainland as his personal ad farm, one per sim or no -- and that's not even particularly true. PN]
Fontte Newbold: Which reminds me.
Moundsa Mayo: Do these same Residents beg for many ugly advertisementslining these roads 8^)
Fontte Newbold: Would there be any way to allow residents to improve the roads over Linden land?
Talarus Luan: Well, I will put in a request to have the one through my home region removed, Jack :P
Fontte Newbold: Some poor resident lost a tressel that wants it back.
Jack Linden: thanks talarus, you are too kind. :)
Fontte Newbold: He is?
Timo Daehlie: you are operatin at the border of the grey area chrischun .. before the policy all you plots where set for sale at 10.000 L$
Dytska Vieria: and chrischun has plots in the middle of nowhere
Timo Daehlie: stupid 50 meter towers in people backgarden ..
Dytska Vieria: ruing a sim
Talarus Luan: Well, you should see the thing.. it is impossible to connect anything to, except in very specific spots. :-/
Timo Daehlie: yes...
Chrischun Fassbinder: Timo, yes, the one parcel per sim I had, I sold at around 10k to cover my costs of time when having to setup another parcel.
Ciaran Laval: Chrischun your plots are in the way, not attracting customers.
Talarus Luan: It is like 15m in the air
Fontte Newbold: I was tempted to hang a four way stop or a traffic light over the road the other day.
Chrischun Fassbinder: Ciaran, they work well to make me sales and those I advertise for. Numbers alone speak for how well they work.
You: Chrischun, fine practice that is! extort for three years for $9935 per 16 m2 then whoops fly under the radar, turn it off, but build bigger towers that parasite off other businesses' traffic on that sim, hijacking their eyeballs
Dytska Vieria: If something were done about add farm extortion, then these meetings would have other content to discuss
Tegg Bode: And temprezzers will be the norm too for adfarmers too great for places with 30 of them
You: Jack, if you had a page on the Internet that could enable any idiot to carve out 16 m2 of space on it to hijack the view, grief, extort, and steal eyeballs, how could you run the Internet?!
Fontte Newbold: Chrischun, no offense, but I'm sure the plots are lucrative.
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Tal Chernov: O.o brb afk
Ciaran Laval: Lol Dytska wait unti LL do something like lower estate land again or raise tier
Moundsa Mayo: IF Residents shear about policies to improve ther neighborhoods, AND the policies are visibly enforced, then MORE and MORE Residents will participate in the needed civi actions to identify and document violations.
You: Imagine if Chrischun could come on secondlife.com and take a chunk out of your website for his cheap click ad
Fontte Newbold: But please, don't try to feed us that line about WHERE they're effective.
Fontte Newbold: The least you can do is be honest here.
Teresa Graziadei: I may have missed somethingg: what is the reason for having 16m plots at all?
Chrischun Fassbinder: Fontte, lucrative in advertising returns, yes.
Fontte Newbold: Can you define clearly where the return occurs?
Chrischun Fassbinder: Roads get cut two to four levels deep as many land sellers, ones that sell large parcels and just microroad side, find it profitable to cut all roadside because they will be bought, by legit advertisers, wide area ad farmers or existing neighbors buying them out of fear of ad farms. That practice alone is a problem.
You: Ad viewjackers are either a) ineffective when despoiling prime residential areas with few visitors or b) parasiting off legitimate business traffic -- they are not wanted, they need to change their model to Google AdSense where people opt in to them and they share revenue.
You: You want to be like the Internet? Be like the real Internet.
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You: not like the Russian Internet.
Moundsa Mayo: Ar all advertisers qwilling to pay a fee to all nearby residents whose viescapes are so trashed by those higly profitale ads?
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Moundsa Mayo: User Fees ...
Fontte Newbold: Ad farming is a parasitic practice. No matter how it's sliced.
Tegg Bode: I wonder how RL housing would work with companies owning billboard land between every houses driveway and the road in residential suburbia
Fontte Newbold: In fact, the problem IS how it's sliced.
You: Chrischun, you had thousands of parcels all over the world set to $9935 that I constantly saw people buy to buy back their view, don't you dare say you had "one parcel"
Qie Niangao: (In fact, it's LL who'd adopt the Google AdSense model, if they were thinking about future revenue)
Chrischun Fassbinder: Prokofy, yes we know you're view on builds and service you personally dislike. Don't like a build personally, say a giant refrigerator, you'll rage against it calling it an eyesoar by all who view it. Champion of the people, keep up that role to keep yourself feeling 100% right, least in your mind. [LOL like...ad towers are "a build I personally don't like"? lol? Like...the refrigerator is something that everybody on 4 sims who has to look it wouldn't vote off the island lol? please -- PN]
Fontte Newbold: Tegg: We have real laws regarding view and the economic use of land.
Jack Linden: sadly i have to run to my next meeting. thank you all for coming along as usual
GnuSense Shepherd: Thanks Jack.
Qie Niangao: Thanks for hosting, Jack.
Ciaran Laval: Cheers jack
Fontte Newbold: Been fun as always Jack.
Fontte Newbold: Thanks for having us.
Timo Daehlie: thx jack
Arawn Spitteler's been getting a share, of Inventory Sytem Crashes
Morrigan Liebling: bye
You: yes I have been saying that either the Lindens should boot out all roadside advertisers and take over the ad rental business on roadsides for tier, or else sell the mainland roads to someone who could manage them properly anld get rid of cutters and blight
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Fontte Newbold: And stomaching the issue instead of laying out the banhammer.
Jack Linden: it's never dull, and some good feedback this week
Rem Nightfire: th ank you jack
Tegg Bode: Np, thanks for putting up with us :)
Moundsa Mayo: Chrischun, your behavior really IS known, and is part of SL HISTORY. It will be remembered as long as SL exists.
Fontte Newbold: Zomg SL History Wiki.
You: it's well documented since 2005, Chrischun, you know it, and stop prevaricating about it
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Timo Daehlie: agrees with moundsa
You: my blog charts him from 2005
You: "A Sign in the Water"
Tegg Bode: We''l try not to wreck any furniture after you leave :)
Fontte Newbold: Don't forget to log some hours in Lively and tell us how you liked it!
Moundsa Mayo: In fact, other advertisers will be able to recognize you and yours as some of the most compelling resions why policies HAD to change.
You: where he admits he had 2 clicks in 3 months
Fontte Newbold: That's the thing.
Fontte Newbold: It is spam.
Fontte Newbold: No matter if it turns a profit or not, at least call a spoon a spoon.
Arawn Spitteler: Someone was telling me, that new merchants would pay too much for such advertising.
Fontte Newbold: The reason it is spam, is there's no unsubscribe.
Arawn Spitteler: I do't know how true that charge is.
Chrischun Fassbinder: Moundsa, my behavior? That I used to sell the single parcel per sim I had for around 10k? Sure, I freely admit it, not hiding anything. Not sure what you consider your time worth, but a half hour to acquire, setup, keep wall free another location I consider well worth 30 some USD. Once, thanks to the ad farmers, it's outlawed by LL, fine I can work with that. I now trade, have done hundreds since the outlaw.
Timo Daehlie: lol
Talarus Luan: Land != time
Timo Daehlie: go write fairy tales
Talarus Luan: I am not buying your time
Talarus Luan: It's a piece of land.
Dytska Vieria: It's 2nd life, your time is not worth 30 USD
Talarus Luan: ..and I can't SELL your time to someone else.
Moundsa Mayo: Well clearly it's time for a gridwide organizational effort, to stamp out trashing of SL, and at the same time actually protect, yes, PROTECT the rights of legitimaste and considerate advertisers ..
You: Chrischun, um, since when is it "ok" to sell "the single parcel I own per sim" for "only" $9935? it's only 16 m2, duh, and you had more than 1 per sim often, and on 4 corners
Moundsa Mayo: If a buyer is 'willing' he wil say ...
You: yes Moundsa the key to cleaning up extortionism is making legitimate advertising
Teresa Graziadei: Moundsa, you are probably right, but how to do this kind of organizing?
Chrischun Fassbinder: Spam, spam spam. Like LL doesn't say the mainland is what those who own each parcel make it within the TOS. It's not spam, sorry guys, it's builds and services. Just because you're against advertising does not make it less in demand here or on the rest of the Internet.
You: keep wall free???
Arawn Spitteler recallsL Jack mentioned, being able to turn sims around, that had lost value. Does that make it profitable to them, to encourage road Side Distractions?
Moundsa Mayo: Gee, I wonder how that could happen. Advertising maybe 8^))
You: the tower is a wall duh
Fontte Newbold: Services that are unwanted, with no recourse against, are spam.
Tegg Bode: Nobody makes anyone put hours of time into flipping 16m plots
Talarus Luan: Well, define spam: Unsolicited Commercial Advertising
Ciaran Laval: Chrischun I'm all for advertising, but having my product assoicated with such unpopular builds adds no value
Talarus Luan: I didn't ask you to come set up adtowers next to my land
Fontte Newbold: I agree.
You: he can have bots manage them, it's all lies
Fontte Newbold: I'm all for advertising.
Fontte Newbold: But I will not harbor spam.
Yohan Pintens: bots rule!
Qie Niangao: The thing is, we're *not* against advertising. and there's a lot in common between what we want and what *profitable* advertising could be in-world.
Chrischun Fassbinder: Prokofy, four corners? No sorry, never. But keep you the rash accusations, yet to see a single blog article of yours that's true about anything I've done in SL.
Talarus Luan: Yeah, I NEVER have been against advertising
Moundsa Mayo: Chrischun, it's OK, really. We'll do whatever it takes to get the TOS reflect the will of the greater number, for the greater good. I'm sure you can make soome money, even in those changed circumstances. More power to you ...
Dytska Vieria: I pay 50L a week to advertise my little business in Search
Qie Niangao: what passes for in-world display "advertising" in-world now really *is* spam. it doesn't have to be that way.
Talarus Luan: Nope.
Tegg Bode: I pay 50 per week to advertise mine too, and each of my tennants, so I factor that into my rent of course
Chrischun Fassbinder: I'm all for zoning, ad farmers hurt me as much and in way greater than those who aren't running advertising services.
Dytska Vieria: Maybe an open letter like the one that went out for the "No New Changes" to SL a while ago.
Fontte Newbold: To put it plainly to the whole of TAG here.
GnuSense Shepherd: I would like to mention that TAG is sponsoring a build contest, details are in the Ranchero region.
Ciaran Laval: Exactly Qie, there's a market for it, but the main "advertising" outlets devalue all advertising services
Yohan Pintens: Dytska, that would be perfect! if it actually had any effect whatsoever besides words.
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Fontte Newbold: We are aware of what you guys put out.
Fontte Newbold: If you're truly concerned here:
Fontte Newbold: Ask yourselves why you're confused with ad farmers.
Fontte Newbold: And fix it.
Moundsa Mayo: Like I said, i actively boycott spamming advertisers, and repeatedly exhort my friends to do the same. That approach is only one tiny bullet in an arsenal of methods to clean up SL. I learn of others every time i attend Office Hours like these.
Yohan Pintens: I have an entrance for your contest, I will show you here
Timo Daehlie: and keeep your 25000
Talarus Luan: Telling us you aren't isn't working.
Fontte Newbold: Don't think that talking the game enough will change the perception.
Tegg Bode: Whateve is done won't rid us of all of them, but it will force them to work in only profitable locations, so I think whatever is done should not be overly complex
Fontte Newbold: Sometimes a spoon is a spoon.
Fontte Newbold: And if it takes educating someone that a spoon isn't a spoon.
GnuSense Shepherd: yes, we have explained there are differences between land cutters, advertisers, and spammers.
Fontte Newbold: You have a big problem.
Fontte Newbold: It's not like I haven't been accused of Bad Things before.
Yohan Pintens: you can pay me in Lindens for my winning contest entry, I'll accept them.
Moundsa Mayo: Yes, they have Chrischun! You are hurt by perceived association - exactly wghat i was mentioning before.
Tegg Bode: Boycotting the advertising on Adfarms is about as effective as boycotting Viagra spam
Fontte Newbold: The difference is someone like me goes and fixes it.
Fontte Newbold: You haven't.
Qie Niangao: In fairness, Fontte, TAG can't fix it on their own. They frankly can't afford to accept a build design that's acceptable to surrounding landowners, because they'll be completely hidden in the forest of crap around them.
Talarus Luan: Probably the only contest entry, Yohan. :P
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Yohan Pintens: I think I got Talarus's vote
Fontte Newbold: Granted.
Fontte Newbold: My point is, if the game is advertising, TAG and us are on the same side here.
Chrischun Fassbinder: Moundsa, correct, that is why I take such issue against ad farmers that have never turned a dollar for advertising services. :)
Fontte Newbold: We want legit advertising.
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Fontte Newbold: Just not spam and flagrant bullshit.
Moundsa Mayo: Boycotting and publicity about it raises the signal level above the spammer's noise, though .. it is for PR, not economic leverage. It builds solidarity, cummunity action, and civic pride.
GnuSense Shepherd: The illegitimate advertisers are not here.
Fontte Newbold: Putting up things that people don't want, and offering no easy recourse to unsubscribe, is flagrant bullshit.
Rem Nightfire: yes moundsa
Qie Niangao: in truth, responsible advertisers (lets stipulate their existence) and landowners are both waiting for LL to make something possible, different from the current absurdity.
Fontte Newbold: Oh, and I'm going to use BTE a lot. They're a sacred cow of what is wrong here.
Moundsa Mayo: *I* want to know where the superior products are, too! So yes, advertising is highly desirable. But not what we see today in SL.
Fontte Newbold: It's not enough to ad farm.
Talarus Luan: Whether they turn a dollar or not isn't the definitive litmus for what is an adfarmer or not. Clearly, adfarmers do turn money, so that doesn't differentiate.
Dytska Vieria: If they banned ad farms, then the ad farmers would make add-bots, walking 10m add towers...
Fontte Newbold: But hardcore porn and malware going unabated....
Fontte Newbold: That's something that can be passed on to the authorities.
Dytska Vieria: something like Tal's av he had last week
GnuSense Shepherd: lol good idea Dytska, a little too much work I think lol
Talarus Luan: Oh yeah...
Fontte Newbold: The advatar?
Fontte Newbold: Wear it Tal.
Tegg Bode: People are never going to like advertising in their face, but it's a necesarry evil, problem is at the moment it's pretty much free to spam the continets with non profit returning signs everywhere.
Talarus Luan: There we go
Fontte Newbold: Necessary my ass.
Arawn Spitteler: Is it U$10, to register an alt? How much for the server?
Dytska Vieria: Yes, the future of add farms - Mobile add farms
Rem Nightfire: hhaha
Tegg Bode: Cool, I want that AV :)
Fontte Newbold: Advertising is a necessity.
Fontte Newbold: Advertising IN THEIR FACE isn't.
Fontte Newbold: The best forms of advertising are the subversive ones.
Chrischun Fassbinder: Tegg, if these signs are not returning them profit, and they do not profit from selling of land. Why would they continue to run such services?
Talarus Luan: yes, that is what makes spam, spam
Fontte Newbold: And the ones that are highly targeted.
Tegg Bode: We should all wear those to next town hall meeting or at SL5B would have been good
Ciaran Laval: Yeah a mobile ad farm could work, the stay puft monster from ghostbusters with a sandwich board traipsing over mainland would probably work better than these towers
Fontte Newbold: Chrischun, are you familiar with the revenue stream of long tail advertising?
Qie Niangao: Ask the poor bastard at The Lamp Store. God knows what he's thinking, but whatever it is, it's not making anybody any money.
Fontte Newbold: And things like clickfraud?
Tegg Bode: Because the sideline profit of extortion payouts of course
Timo Daehlie: Adzilla
Fontte Newbold: Not saying you do them, just, the concept.
Chrischun Fassbinder: While you're trying to remove distributed advertising services, be sure to add builds you find personally ugly to the list. By the definition of spam I see used, thouse would qualify just the same.
Ciaran Laval: lol Timo
Timo Daehlie: :)
Fontte Newbold: Much of the time it's not the ads.
Fontte Newbold: It's the perception that they work.
Fontte Newbold: Who do you think funds spam?
Yohan Pintens: only if it is their implicit intent Chrisschun
Fontte Newbold: A bunch of cockeyed bozos that think their products and "Free rooolex watches" are actually being seen.
Chrischun Fassbinder: Okay, so for those of you that feel the advertising "towers" are ugly, TAG gives you the chance to do something about it. Directly.
http://www.theadvertisersguild.com/contest/index.html
Fontte Newbold: Oh we're doing something about it.
Dytska Vieria: Actually, funding spam is cheap - it is mostly run by botnet controllers on hijacked PC's with open port 25
Timo Daehlie: cant Tag do something themself about it ?
Tegg Bode: Difference is the guy building an ugly refrigerator as ahouse, doesn't put one in each of 2000 sims
Fontte Newbold: The best ad tower:
Timo Daehlie: why we have to help
Talarus Luan: It's not the towers we have a problem with; it's the ads they are displaying
Fontte Newbold: Nothingness.
Fontte Newbold: Yep.
Chrischun Fassbinder: Yes, it's publicity, but it's also a response to the thousands of times use advertisers have heard said, that the current advertising terminals are ugly and eye soars.
Qie Niangao: But, Chrischun, how can you possibly accept a tower design that's tolerable, and still compete with the crap all around you
Talarus Luan: ..and where they are displaying them
Chrischun Fassbinder: Go do something about it,
http://www.theadvertisersguild.com/contest/index.html
Yohan Pintens: Chrisschun: well in 3 prims you can't really do much
Fontte Newbold: Chrischun, the argument is, the practices that you harbor should be focused.
Fontte Newbold: And not all over the grid.
Yohan Pintens: so thats a red herring contest
Fontte Newbold: Residential should be residential.
Ciaran Laval: Location Location Location
Fontte Newbold: Not having to compete with the likes of your stuff.
Fontte Newbold: Precisely.
Yohan Pintens: how can you make 3 cubes better? By letting a resident come up with the design instead of you?
Chrischun Fassbinder: First contest is for 32sqms, allows for sculptable prims, Yohan for more go read the contest. :)
Chrischun Fassbinder: Again I see more conclusions being jumped to.
Chrischun Fassbinder: Typical.
Yohan Pintens: I can't read
Tegg Bode: Lol, yeah they are limited to 3 prims?, lol with temprezzers NOT!
Talarus Luan: OK, I will build a set of three <0.01,0.01,0.01> prims in a linkset with llSetAlpha(0.0,ALL_SIDES); there. That should be a winning entry
Moundsa Mayo: Oh, there are MANY things we can DO about it, and that is only ONE to be considered. We will use far more than the anemic, self-serving offers TAG makes for improvment.
Chrischun Fassbinder: Put your fingers in your ears and go lalallalallalaSPAMalallalallaSPAM :)
Tegg Bode: So how do your sales go when you surround your own SL™ home with aadvertising?
Chrischun Fassbinder:
http://www.theadvertisersguild.com/contest/index.html
Fontte Newbold: If you want, I can get you a definition of spam directly from firms most involved in curtailing it.
Qie Niangao: Just as an example... the border between Tussock and Lanestris, off Hooktip... I actually built a little wall, trying to echo Gnu's design, just to try to block off some of the rest of the visual noise. I'm not saying I love Gnu's design, but it's better than the sh!t that's surrounding there.
Fontte Newbold: I worked in the industry against. Still do.
Talarus Luan: We know spam is... come on. :P
Fontte Newbold: He doesn't, evidently.
GnuSense Shepherd: hey thanks.
Arawn Spitteler: Spam is pposting the same message in multiple venues, as I recall. I'm not sure it would count, for multiple sims, though.
Talarus Luan: ..and this is why we will never be able to find a middle ground that the ad(farmer)vertisers, land extortionists, and the rest of the residents will be happy with.
Fontte Newbold: Gnu's design is at least a bit less blatant, I will give that.
Qie Niangao: it is what it is. we need LL to help us reign in the insanity
Fontte Newbold: As are the smaller roadside signs.
Fontte Newbold: Think of it another way.
Fontte Newbold: What value do your ads actually offer to the people viewing them?
Fontte Newbold: And in what volume?
Fontte Newbold: If your builds contributed to the land around them, they wouldn't be attacked so.
Tegg Bode: What I personally find strange is that iff multiple plot advertising were to work properly it would be networked vendors sytem not just signage.
Chrischun Fassbinder: Fontte, the same value ads in real life and on other Internet services perform. [Ads in real life are not on MY Internet page unless I say so-- PN]
Timo Daehlie: you mean like how many avatars are buying diaerbags fontte ?
Virtouse Lilienthal: Chrischun you're charging 9999L$ for 30minutes worth of your time
Talarus Luan: Yeah, I don't know anyone who needs a diaper bag, hammock, or beanbag that wouldn't go to Walmart and get one for half the price they could get one online.
Timo Daehlie: *diaper
Virtouse Lilienthal: but the contest winner gets just 10kl$?
Fontte Newbold: Yep. :p
Virtouse Lilienthal: how odd is that?
Chrischun Fassbinder: Virtouse, I used to, yes.
Fontte Newbold: Uh, Chrischun?
Fontte Newbold: How many people use ad blocker programs for exactly that reason?
GnuSense Shepherd: there are a few things in the works, such as low population regions, the signs automatically lower, as well as advertising that others can utilize in their own establishments.
Arawn Spitteler'd like to see some Burma Shave Ads: Free! Free! a Trip to Mars, for 900,000,000,000 empty jars, of Burma Shave.
Virtouse Lilienthal: he needs to spent much more time than 30minutes to create something what could win
Virtouse Lilienthal: I wouldn't not even start thinking of this for 10kL$
Fontte Newbold: And how many people refuse to buy magazines that are half adverts?
Talarus Luan: Spam in real life serves no purpose but to waste my time and bandwidth (both internet and life)
GnuSense Shepherd: hey tal, but its free shipping..!! :)
GnuSense Shepherd: just teasing.
Fontte Newbold: If it ads value, by all means, add it.
Talarus Luan: Hehe
Fontte Newbold: Pun not quite intended, but hey, it works!
Virtouse Lilienthal: But I wouldn't support it anyway
Chrischun Fassbinder: Virtouse, it appears you are comparing a contest to work.
Talarus Luan: Man, you really need to get to Walmart... they have those things CHEAP! :D
Tegg Bode: Steak knife offer perhaps?
Crap Mariner is Online
Virtouse Lilienthal: because I dislike this small stuff
GnuSense Shepherd: Walmarts are made in China, lol
Virtouse Lilienthal: Chrischun I am just using your words to turn them against you
Virtouse Lilienthal: and a contest for 40 bucks
Virtouse Lilienthal: pf
Virtouse Lilienthal: I don't care
Talarus Luan: Yus, so are the ones at handbags.com. :P
Virtouse Lilienthal: especially not for a purpose like this
Chrischun Fassbinder: Virtouse, then by all means don't enter.
Virtouse Lilienthal: I won't
Fontte Newbold: But you too can win a Linden Prize!
Talarus Luan: Err diaperbags.com
Virtouse Lilienthal: you're posting it here
Virtouse Lilienthal: and I am giving you my thoughts about it
Virtouse Lilienthal: probably I should better say you're spamming it here
GnuSense Shepherd: hmm I 'll have to look at that, I did not see that before.
Chrischun Fassbinder: The contest is mainly to address a commmon point distributed advertisers have heard for a while now, the suggestions of making the terminals look better.
Virtouse Lilienthal: because you needed to post it twice
Virtouse Lilienthal: for no reason
Fontte Newbold: The best remedy is, consider if you were us.
Chrischun Fassbinder: If you do not wish to participate, that is your choice.
Fontte Newbold: I just bought a nice 512 of land, my first as a newbie, quote unquote.
Fontte Newbold: Pristine sim, low lag.
Arawn Spitteler: Where's this contest?
GnuSense Shepherd: Its a chance for the community to show their support for legitimate advertising.
Fontte Newbold: Suddenly my neighbor sells the 512 next to me.
Virtouse Lilienthal: Ranchero or whatever
Fontte Newbold: It gets cut to bits.
Yohan Pintens: where is the legitimate advertising?
GnuSense Shepherd: Ranchero region
Talarus Luan: Well, they are all the "designer brands", read "we run textile sweatshops in China"
Loydin Tripp is Online
Chrischun Fassbinder: While directly contributing to what they consider better looking displays, first hand.
Fontte Newbold: BTE, a few of you guys, and Dr. Destiny buy it.
Fontte Newbold: Put up huge banners right next to my new home.
Fontte Newbold: Would I be pissed? Yes.
GnuSense Shepherd: Dr. Destiny makes my head hurt.
Virtouse Lilienthal: Chrischun you or they are just not understanding what is the issue
GnuSense Shepherd: 6 spinning prims on 2 lots. its not cool
Virtouse Lilienthal: the display changes alone won't solve the problem at all
Fontte Newbold: The issue is not confusing you guys with ad farmers.
Talarus Luan: Oh yeah, his place in Ivanova
Fontte Newbold: The issue is that you yourselves are positioned in the very same market.
Talarus Luan: I went there..
Virtouse Lilienthal: A field with loads of those won't be any better than a field of those boxes
Talarus Luan: I explored, and flew away at high speed
Qie Niangao: well, speaking of flying away, RL calls...
Moundsa Mayo: And they are not going to. let us not waste time listineing to the last gasps of their desparation. Let's move on and begin serious organizing, publicty, put up some ugly ads next to theirs and point ot that we are trying to stamp out this blight --->>>
GnuSense Shepherd: cya Qie
Chrischun Fassbinder: Virtouse, as many have said, ugly displays are an issue. This is something myself and other advertisers in TAG can directly address within our own networks. If you fault me for trying to work with people, so be it.
Talarus Luan: Well, let us know how that goes, Chrischun. :)
Qie Niangao: have fun, folks.!
Talarus Luan: Seeya Qie
Moundsa Mayo: CU, Q
Fontte Newbold: I miss your forum posts, Chance.
Virtouse Lilienthal: Chrischun the ugliness isn't the only problem
GnuSense Shepherd: so you think advertising against advertising is the key?
Chrischun Fassbinder: Virtouse, again I nor any advertiser in TAG put out fields. :)
Dytska Vieria: your displays are ugly in that in one sim, they are the only thing, a build, that obviously does not belong there.
Talarus Luan: That's kinda what we are doing, in a way.
Virtouse Lilienthal: Chrischun it doesn't matter
Dytska Vieria: Mocis
Fontte Newbold: Honestly, the key is to get the owners of the land, Linden Lab, to do something about it.
Timo Daehlie: and not TAG
Fontte Newbold: Because they have identified it as a problem.
Fontte Newbold: And so have we.
Talarus Luan: Yep. We're never going to convince one another.
Dytska Vieria: Gabara
Moundsa Mayo: Right - take the voice of the people to the govermment.
Fontte Newbold: All I have to say is this.
Chrischun Fassbinder: Oh, I'm in total agreement that ad farmers are a problem. :)
Fontte Newbold: If you folks are legitimate, it'll prove itself out in the end.
Moundsa Mayo: Exactly!
Talarus Luan: Yes, but you're not doing anything about yourself. :P
Moundsa Mayo: If not, good riddance.
GnuSense Shepherd: Most people are not saying "get rid of all advertising", thats a small voice. EVERYONE is asking for legitimate advertising, TAG offers just that. We follow strict guildlines.
Chrischun Fassbinder: If they didn't make money from flipping small parcels, they'd not be here as they're sure as hell not making returns from legit advertising.
Timo Daehlie: TAG is a wolf in sheep clothes ..
Talarus Luan: I don't know a single person who as ever said "get rid of all advertising"
Timo Daehlie: more i dont have to say
Virtouse Lilienthal: Get rid of your 32sqm thoughts
Timo Daehlie: good eve all .. things to do ;)
Tegg Bode: Yep, I'm tending to think small plots just have to go, or become economically unviable, this wanting to own a 16m in every sim is just bullcrap
Moundsa Mayo: Yeah, sorry, never seen 'self-regulation' work yet, NEVER!
You: No, I am all for advertising, I want the Lindens to sell it in the welcome areas and roadside and regulate it
Rem Nightfire: bye timo
GnuSense Shepherd: I agree Prok.
Talarus Luan: Put it inside of venues, and ban the rest.
GnuSense Shepherd: well the last part
Moundsa Mayo: But not along every 16m2 roadside plot, Prok huh? 8^)
GnuSense Shepherd: of course, I am biased.
Fontte Newbold: Yep.
Arawn Spitteler: Roadsides are a venue

Comments

[Ann Otoole]

Linden Lab is full of wimps. They apparently quake in fear of ad farmers bullying them in the hallways and giving them swirlies in the jr. high bathrooms.

I mean it is so frikking simple. LL hires an outside consultant to come in and catalog the ad farms and then at the appointed time they delete the accounts of the ad farmers and turn the land over to the adjacent parcels if desired.

Same policy and procedure needs to be applied to traffic falsification operations. Catalog, document, ban, recover assets. Message sent. No more problem. Do this blatantly unethical activity and your hand gets cut off.

Only by hard core jack boot stomping action will people get the message that fraudulent behavior is no longer condoned in Secondlife. But someone besides Linden Lab is going to have to be the enforcers.

It takes balls to be tough in an honest and decent manner.

Or maybe the kickbacks are so lucrative LL will not deal with the problems. In which case the time is drawing nearing for bringing the FTC into the mix. For one thing the FTC needs to have a look at the Showcase. Apparently it is going to require actual government intervention into Linden Lab's affairs for LL to decide to get serious about doing things in an honest and ethical manner.

There is just so much that makes zero sense about Linden lab. Kind of hard for anyone to take them seriously. And weak people are never taken seriously.

[Tammy Nowotny]

I wish I had gone to that meeting. Some folks showed up who are rarely actually seen in public but who manage to wreak a lot of havoc on the mainland.

One intereseting development is that the adfarmers have laregly stopped bothering to put up ads. They now prefer to just settle for playing games with overpriced minilots... sometimes with bad terraforming and/or ban lines and/or other annoyances, but for the most part without the ad towers.

[Tammy Nowotny]

Judging by other transcripts, it looks like the meeting you went to was quieter than some. Even though the adfarmers and the microplot extortionists' activities may seem mindless, there are actual people doing this stuff. Although 'bots are involved, it's nit just 'bots. And even though they rarely show their faces in public they evidently do drop in on Jack's meetings.

They tend to be like my RL kid sister: they like to confuse you by deliberately missing the point of what people are saying to them. Like ChrisChun Fassbinder once (not in the meeting posted above) responded to complaints about the ugliness of his ad towers by claiming he would sponsor a design competition for a new ad tower design. Or Austin Hallard starts talking about how prices in Bay City are as high per sq metre as his ubiquitous strategically located L$800-L$1.5k microplots and how no one (or hardly anyone) complains about those prices.

The Lindens need to redo the whole tier structure... it is illogical that someone can hold 4000 ad plots for the same price as a single mainland sim.

[Ciaran Laval]

The design competition was mentioned at that meeting.

I don't know why anyone would want their product associate with these towers anyway, no matter how nice the tower they are still going to be an eyesore.

[Ann Otoole]

I think smart money is cutting losses and getting away from Linden Lab. Anyone dumb enough to give away their revenue stream on a silver platter is a total loser. And Joe Miller suggesting Linden Lab might be in a position to offer backbone services? Please. They can't even manage the asset system and apparently have no real transactions management system like Tuxedo going to prevent failed transactions from resulting in lost L$ and triggering automated alerts. I don't see the expertise at Linden Lab providing much of anything to anyone anytime soon. I.e.; Linden Lab has a limited shelf life now. They think like techies and not like business people end of story.

[Tammy Nowotny]

I mixed up Prok's blog posting with a simnilar one from Sarah Nerd. Oops!

/me blushes

I was wondering who Cory Edo is... she is the only visibly listed non-Linden working on the Second Life Estate services island. Judging from her profile, it seems very possible that she may be Cory Ondrejka's alt. But maybe she is just an Ondrejka-lookalike :-)

[economic mip]

Cory Edo is a contract builder based out of New York. She is responsible for many of the works by the Electric Sheep including the I am Legend, and CSI. She also was hired to build the Linden Estate management building.

[Prokofy Neva]

I know all that economic. But look at what the chat says, it's messed up : )

[KRISHNA SALVI]

Save your Money by outsourcing 3D walkthrough & Rendering to Yantram

http://3d-walkthrough-rendering.outsourcing-services-india.com/industrial-3d-modeling.php