Connectivizating

Here is a study in how ideas are confronted and exchanged and then...to their proprietor's horror, soon depart from the Ur source, and bear no resemblance to that perfect, shining thing they were in the ivory tower! lol

Except, we aren't some peasants in the Middle Ages, but modern, educated people, and Troy and Pooky are even Scientists. It was interesting to me that they asked the same questions I've had. Troy in particular put it better than I've been saying it when I note that the jump from the model of neurology to a social theory is stretching it pretty thin.

None of the people here are "taking the course" except me, but what is "taking a course" when you are engaging with a MOOC, which I decode as "massive online ongoing conformism" for most of the participants. Say, if you're going to have networks, who gets to say how far from the Ur idea they can go before they aren't the externalized knowledge in which we were to have such trust?

You: the fishing is better over here
Pooky Amsterdam: hello
Troy McLuhan: Great details
Pooky Amsterdam: no rod
You: well we have that 7seas thing
Pooky Amsterdam: Ahoy Crap
Crap Mariner salutes
Pooky Amsterdam: how goes it?
You: uh oh
You: if you copy it it keeps the hover text
You: I suppose I should ditch that somehow
Crap Mariner: I am most happy. Nowhereville pirate party was great. Island is looking beautiful again. And getting better
Cocoanut Koala: so it did
You: →I'm going to have a Moth Ball here
You: maybe on my rez day
Pooky Amsterdam: better pirates through chemsitry
You: hi Dizzy
Crap Mariner: Moth Ball Soup!
Dizzy Banjo: hi
You: did everybody figure out where to fly to?
Pooky Amsterdam: hi Dizzy
Clubside Granville: No, there are still a few wandering
Dizzy Banjo: howdy
Clubside Granville: That minature moth temple replica threw some of them off when you mentioned "small temple"
You: hmmmm
You: what's that?
You: oh that
You: that's from the neighbour
Clubside Granville: Behind the cannery to the south, is a replica of the full-size moth temple
Crap Mariner: very cool temple
You: yes I love it and I even made tacky souvenirs
You: myself!
Crap Mariner: excellent!
You: it took me forever
You: there is
Pooky Amsterdam: *nods*
Clubside Granville: time to use the mostly-hidden SHOUT feature to call everyone over! lol
Crap Mariner: one must seek the light within
Pooky Amsterdam: & carry it with one
Cocoanut Koala: send out more notices, only this time, put in iris 196,199,21
Pooky Amsterdam: you can travel the world to find the light but you must carry it with you or you will find it not
You: there
You: spread the faith
Pooky Amsterdam: *passes faith to left*
You: Troy are you already living in the future?
Troy McLuhan: No still in the present
You: well in SL I mean
Troy McLuhan: Sigh
You: our topic tonight
Clubside Granville: I wonder how the kids in SL who grew up with the Internet, Cell Phones, etc. envision the future compared to those of us who saw those things created in adulthood
You: I feel we are in the future but not in any hugely like Jetson's way, just that we are living inside software.
Cocoanut Koala: did somebody shout the coordinates?
You: No one ever had to live right up smack close inside software til now
Crap Mariner: I was trapped in a Visicalc Spreadsheet for 2 days
Pooky Amsterdam: the edge of tomorrow just seems a bit flat
Pooky Amsterdam: or was Columbus wrong?
Clubside Granville: I didn't get into VisiCalc myself Crap, I was trapped at the CP/M prompt
Dizzy Banjo: im beginning to feel like SL is some kind of tangent future.. perhaps its something to do with CERN
Pooky Amsterdam: black holes of tomorrow?..today
You: no but how far do shouts cary?
Crap Mariner: 96 meters
Troy McLuhan: I never had the pleasure of using VisiCalc, although we did get a "game" cartridge for our TRS-80 that did calculations to help with carpentry
Clubside Granville: Hey, they re-released WarGames... we're well past the WOPR
Pooky Amsterdam: hahhaha
Cocoanut Koala shouts: iris 196, 100, 21
You: well what I mean is the in-the-round feeling of being in software
You: where it bites you on the ass
Clubside Granville: 30 years since WarGames first hit the theaters
You: you know, like Windlight, or sims crashing
Pooky Amsterdam: even the car stalls at times
You: plus, I feel like when I see people getting all exctited that they are online in a course with 2000 pepole, I think but so what? SL is like that.
You: I've been in that dippy Connectivist class
You: I've decided it's a cult
Cocoanut Koala: and i have had ZERO idea what you have been talking about with all that connectivist stuff on your blog!
Crap Mariner: I find myself pondering that when I run out of memory because I take too many snapshots.
You: Crap, does all knowledge reside outside the self on the network?
Troy McLuhan: People wouldn't be overjoyed to be in a real class with 2000 students in the lecture hall, unless the professor was like Stephen Hawking
Dizzy Banjo: i need to check this connectivism thing out, it seems utterly bizarre
Clubside Granville: The only thing I've gotten from your reports on that course Prok is that there are not-too-bright dudes who took LSD a bunch of times and didn't understand their experiences... lol
Crap Mariner: Like I'm in some police state, and the secret police see me snapping a photo of the wrong thing WHAM! I'm dead meat. Heh
Pooky Amsterdam: you cant know everything where would you put it?
You: ÷well at my university we would have giant lecture halls with 500 people
Crap Mariner: Hrm...
You: and the professor would be this tiny guy in the distance
You: and he would say stuff like "Your textboooook oook oook....will beeeeeee " echoing
Pooky Amsterdam: & you cant use the cam on him
You: and you would then go to the smaller tutorials during the wee with 12 people
Cocoanut Koala: i hated those big lectures - I'd always go to sleep
Crap Mariner: Knowledge is always in some form of repository, whether in a brain, a sheet of paper, a book, or as data. The network merely connects those repositories and the potential vessels.
You: that's where the information was tho
You: ah but Crap!
You: you are bad Connectivist!
You: knowledge is not in anything
Crap Mariner: Shame on me. I suck.
Pooky Amsterdam: how do you get to be a good one?
You: it is not in a repository!
Crap Mariner: Okay, in RL... I have a fireplace
Crap Mariner: I am throwing a book in it right now
Clubside Granville: It's funny to me how few people discuss education as the process of learning how to learn...
Pooky Amsterdam: can you know something & nto act upon it- then is it truly knowledge?
Crap Mariner: And tossing on a Duraflame firelog and lighting it.
You: well Pooky I would think so
Pooky Amsterdam: to knwo & not to do is not to know
You: but it turns out I'm hoplessly mired in some model from like the 18th century
Crap Mariner: It's a collection of Dave Barry articles. No loss, but still... I am burning that individual repository of Dave Barry's knowledge.
Clubside Granville: As for the Lindens "programming the future", they've yet to catch up to the present in SL... lol...
Pooky Amsterdam: thank you *warms hands on fire*
You: Connectivism goes beyond Derida's Deconstructivism and behaviouralism and all those 1960s and 1970s thinges-- it's even more far our
Cocoanut Koala: NO LOSS?!?!?!!!!
You: oh but see Dave Barry's thing could be copied somewhere else, it's not "there"
You: remember that Metanomics blog by Roland that talked about how kids should cheat in school using Facebook?
You: see that's Connectivism
Cocoanut Koala: *hugs Dave Barry books close*
Crap Mariner: Sure as heck it is HERE.
Crap Mariner: I read that book
You: but my point is, somebody has to then do the homework for the whole network
Crap Mariner: And some of that knowledge got in my head
You: so Connectivism sounds like a ruse
Crap Mariner: But still, that instance of the knowledge is gone.
Pooky Amsterdam: is google okay for homework?
Cocoanut Koala: i even looked up "connectivism" on google and i still don't know what it is
You: it has a rather tiny Wikipedia page
Cocoanut Koala: if someone could define it for me . . .
Crap Mariner: Connections without things to connect is lunacy.
You: well it's this new theory that knowledge and learning are not about transfering and storing as in the olden days
You: but it resides in the network
You: All Hail the Holy Network of course
Crap Mariner: buwahahahahahahaha
You: and you connect to different things, people, non-human appliances
Cocoanut Koala: network transfers and stores though?
You: You would think Coco
Pooky Amsterdam: could I just put a usb inside my brain & then transfer to someone else?
Crap Mariner: a network without nodes is just a bunch of silent wires
You: that was my question in the first minute
You: but...what about that idea of "store and forward"
You: I mean, isn't that the Internet?
You: but this is...more spacey
You: Basically, they take the model of the human brain, as understood today, with today's theories of neural networks
You: and they say "this is a learning theory too" -- "People learn on networks the way the brain functions on networks"
Cocoanut Koala: ok . . . and so?
Dizzy Banjo: lol yeah
Crap Mariner: The brain is fascinating in the respect that the brain is so utterly complex, but not complex enough to understand precisely how complex itself is.
Troy McLuhan: Good grief, you can't take a model at one level and say it is repeated at the higher level like that
You: what I find dubious about this is that they say "there is no knowledge without a community" or "the individual neuron doesn't know, only the brain," and hey, that's a quick trip to fascism or communism.
You: Crap, what does this phrase neural networks mean to you?
Cocoanut Koala: well there is indeed knowledge without community
You: If you look at Philip Linden's profile under "interests" he writes "neural networks"
Pooky Amsterdam: question- do you think learning is discovery or recovery- as if we already knwo it but need to be prompted to uncover it in our minds
Cocoanut Koala: for example, I know my feet are on the desk. I knew that before I told you
Pooky Amsterdam: we have to believe you
You: Perhaps some things are recovered, yes. Perhaps truth, beauty, God.
Crap Mariner: I'd say a circuit of neurons. But then, my degree in Biology is from 91. I'm going to assume I'm out of date.
You: but other things have to be put in
Pooky Amsterdam: they could be under the desk or you could be playing wiht them
Cocoanut Koala: whether you believe me or not, it is knowledge I have
You: but of course they would say, no, there is no putting in; it is all connections
Cocoanut Koala: and certain knowledge, at that
You: of course, mind you, I'm a lousy student here, I don't believe the hype, so I could be explaining it far worse than the true believers would
Troy McLuhan: There is a "neural networks" field in computer science. It's just a way to approximate functions, but has a sort of cult following. "We use it because it is kinda sorta based on the brain but not really."
You: But see this is how it played out
Cocoanut Koala: i have a suspicion the believers couldn't explain it very clearly, though
You: first they had 2,200 people all mob to a forums
You: in a thing called Moodle
You: which was a Muddle
Crap Mariner: Aha... reading up... okay, so these folks think it's the connections that are the important piece of the puzzle. Never mind that the puzzle pieces themselves hold the information.
Cocoanut Koala: it's just another way of saying, "we use the internet" then?
You: then everyone introduces themselves
Troy McLuhan: Everyone?
You: so like like all these moms in Nova Scotia and kids in Turkey say "hi, I'm in the back of the beyond and I love this idea because it sounds like I can connect to something from my provincial backwater"
You: and trust me, I am the first to be connecting from the provincial backwater
You: the word "connect" is helpign it sell see
You: so then after they churn on that, they put up a forums
You: and it's exactly like the SL General
Pooky Amsterdam: buzz words do that
You: mobs of people staring and gawking
You: and 3 people posting, one of them me
Cocoanut Koala: lol
Crap Mariner: Worship the Holy Connection!
You: and I put up like a paragraph saying "I don't buy this stuff" under the title "Skeptic"
Crap Mariner: (pfeh)
You: and it hwas like 87 answers the next day
Pooky Amsterdam: the ability to make those connections is more important then what we connect?
Khamon Fate: am this the meeting?
You: ande there is a huge rush of people saying "How can you criticize? You haven't studied. And quoting all these quotes about people who talk and don't work blah blah
Cocoanut Koala: this are khamon
You: yes Khamon we're connecting
Crap Mariner: Obviously, you lack the right quality of connections. ;)
You: well but you just hit on it Crap
You: because then like after one week
Dizzy Banjo: yeh thats it
Pooky Amsterdam: should we hold hands & sing Kumbayah?
You: people bitched that Prokofy was crabbing
You: and so the teacher said, well here's the special list I will steer you too
Crap Mariner looks at the disconnected slowly turning gears... does this make me anti-Connectivist?
You: this is the Other network, the BETTER network
Troy McLuhan: Maybe like one of those connect the dots things where you get an ugly picture at the end?
Dizzy Banjo: its the "who follows you on twitter" phenomenon
You: and this has all moderated blogs of my friends on it, so go here
You: Troy you are TOO funny
You: well I may not be doing the theory justice
Pooky Amsterdam: lets be our own dots & lets make them green
You: but you just told me something I didn't know
You: you mean neural networks isn't like a proper science?
You: you know, like algebra or dissecting frogs?
You: it's some kind of out there sort of thing?
You: (hence on Philip's profile)
Crap Mariner: It's hard for me to take people who follow me on Twitter seriously. Because I am rarely serious. And they are following me. Which means, they are people seeking out the non-serious.
Troy McLuhan: I know some of the scientists in the field. There is some mathematical theory behind neural networks, but most of it is just heuristics and hand waving
Crap Mariner: Obviously we must build better hands to wave.
You: See, Crap, the puzzle pieces, well, what are they? inert bits of organic matter, they only "know" when they all light up the switchboard
You: Heuristics and handwaving.
You: What does that mean exactly?
Pooky Amsterdam: like a game where you answer correctly & a light goes off
Pooky Amsterdam: aha
Cocoanut Koala: i don't believe this nutty business that nothing is known until others know it
Dizzy Banjo: well i mean, as far as i understand it, these people believe they are as knowledgable as how connected they are.. so if they arent in the network they are meaningless ? its just daft lol
Pooky Amsterdam: knowledgeable in what way?
You: well I haven't heard them go so far as to do that cliche about being "connected" as in "in like Finn"
Cocoanut Koala: sounds to me like it's . . . all that "teamwork" pushed in school for too long, run amok
You: but it's a bit like that, it has its FIC already of course
You: well it's teamwork with the whole planet
You: Hive Mind see
Cocoanut Koala: i hate the hive mind
You: so how do you decide standards to test children?
Crap Mariner: Hime minds give me the hives
Pooky Amsterdam: - borg?
You: Yes Hive Mind bothers me.
Troy McLuhan: I think this "connectivism" thing is more closely related to the field of "network theory" or "network science" than neural network theory. One good book on that topic is _Linked_ by Barabasi
Cocoanut Koala: I know! *waves hand*(
Dizzy Banjo: they'll be talking about Gaia next
You: I'll have to check that out Troy
Cocoanut Koala: by counting up how many friends they are connected to, and how important those friends are!
Steveo Rhiano: yes it is
Pooky Amsterdam: me too
You: And what does network theory tell you? and does it ruin little children?
Pooky Amsterdam: only if they are not connected
You: I have a feeling that if applied in a high school it means that kids should just chat and hang out and "learn there are no right answers"
Steveo Rhiano: well children are linked
Troy McLuhan: Network theory, so far, is mostly about studying how networks form and grow over time, and become like the networks we observe in the real world
You: I guess I understand this a bit like art training. In order to become a good abstract artist it's helpful to have had the classical training first, all those early abstract artists did of course
Pooky Amsterdam: what is the goal of the nnetwork or does it have its merit in its organic structure alone?
Pooky Amsterdam: yes very true
You: so you could "just care about process" after you had some facts and frameworks under your belt
Crap Mariner: one must learn great literature to make your own
You: well what is that you can say about networks? They ahve the network effect, of course...but...what else?
Pooky Amsterdam: so you cant deconstruct- create abstraction without somes structure first on which to tear it apart
You: What is the result of these theories applied in real life?
Steveo Rhiano: wel you are a result in sl Prokofy
Steveo Rhiano: you have made yourself a "hub"
Cocoanut Koala: hehe
Steveo Rhiano: so I came
You: Perhaps I could just leave my avatar out to do all the work now
Steveo Rhiano: to see what is going on
You: it could simulate knowledge
Crap Mariner: hrm... can i leave mine out and have it simulate ignorance without me?
You: but Steveo isn't that just plain old fashioned sort of connecting the old way?
Steveo Rhiano: well is there such a thing as "knowledge" to somulate?
Pooky Amsterdam: can it stimulate though wihtout you behind it?
Dizzy Banjo: Prokofy, is there some actual overlap with virtual worlds or SL ( as in are some of the same people involved ) with Connectivism, or is it just 'the latest fad' to hopelessly try to explain all this in one unifying theory ?
You: I think it probably can if it just gets a few lines down pat.
Pooky Amsterdam: yes the work is in those lines though
Crap Mariner: fad. big fad.
Troy McLuhan: There is a cadre of SL educators who jumped on the bandwagon
Steveo Rhiano: people are infinite
You: It's the latest fad to hopelessly try to explain everything with one unifying theory.
You: it has nothign to do with SL
Dizzy Banjo: ok
Crap Mariner: how much are they charging for this fad?
You: most of the people never went on SL; except Fleep who has a chapter of it on her sim
Steveo Rhiano: each and evey singular other so nothing to "explain"
You: Troy yes they jumped because they were already groupies
Steveo Rhiano: we come to mean something to one another
Dizzy Banjo: i find it hilarious how people have always tried to explain SL
Steveo Rhiano: so we can communicate
You: they didn't like constructivism; this gives them another ism.
Pooky Amsterdam: communicatism
Crap Mariner: or that most dangerous of isms, journalism
You: you would think these folks would love SL, but like a lot of Web 2.0 gurus they say "gosh, I don't have time for a first life, I'm so fabulous!" etc.
Steveo Rhiano: forget theisms
You: hahahaha good one Crap!
Steveo Rhiano: isms
You: Sim Isms
Pooky Amsterdam: ism is an analgram for sim
Steveo Rhiano: all isms waste of time
You: There once was a sim named Ism
You: that couldn't take any criticism
Cocoanut Koala: well i've got a word that rhymes, but . . .
You: He withered away
You: And people to this day
You: Wondered why he didn't study Connectivism
You: er that didn't quite work but I'm almost there
You: I feel the SL edu thing is a bit of a hose
You: because I never see students
Pooky Amsterdam: were left wiht only his jism?
You: the students with the Bloghuds, have you noticed???
Cocoanut Koala: that was my word!
Pooky Amsterdam: *nods*
You: they are blogging stuff like "SL seems so unprofessional"
Pooky Amsterdam: its "our" word now
You: "I don't like this, it's too laggy and strange and this guy with a dragon landed on me"
Cocoanut Koala: hehe
You: they are terribly fearful and conformist
Cocoanut Koala: well face it , SL is weird
Crap Mariner: SL is as professional or unprofessional as you make it
Cocoanut Koala: to just normal people
You: fussy little creatures worried about how to get their degree
Dizzy Banjo: a game, a place, a world, the future of business, the future of education, the 3d internet, the 'metaverse'.. perhaps we should just stop trying to shoehorn it into a role and just get on with some interesting stuff, theories like this which spend all their time just attempting to explain it, feel like they are just wasting interesting creative and experimental time for me
Crap Mariner: it. is. what. is. is.
Pooky Amsterdam: people are predisposed to like or not-
You: yes I don't bother to try to explain too much as I once did more fervently
You: if you don't like it, well, you don't like it
Pooky Amsterdam: I agree Dizzy
You: I can't believe the Lindens SLURL thing will make a dent
You: I will try to make one of course
You: but we already have SLURLS that don't work
You: not getting it really
Dizzy Banjo: the more i think about it, the more it feels like a strange parallel but fascinating world which is very creative and revealing
Steveo Rhiano: well so far I do not feel anyone has responded to my atemt to participate in this discussion
Dizzy Banjo: and nothing to do with the 3d internet really
You: well scroll back, I did
Cocoanut Koala: that definition is good i think, dizzy
Steveo Rhiano: ok
Dizzy Banjo: what did you ask Steveo ?
Dizzy Banjo: or comment etc
You: is there such a thing as knowledge to simulate, was his question
You: and the answer of a Connectivist would likely be, but it's not a chair that you touch and copy
You: you connect
Pooky Amsterdam: maybe just knowledge to stimulate
You: it's isn't a thing in a repository
Steveo Rhiano: yes
Pooky Amsterdam: the wanting to know is pretty good
Dizzy Banjo: hmm
Crap Mariner: This is the moment where my mind is tied up in knots. Knife please?
You: of course, I don't buy that, I don't mind at all saying "book" or "blackboard" or "Internet page" or "my colleague at work"
Cocoanut Koala: haha
Dizzy Banjo: this is a bit like Deleuze's concept of the virtual
You: which is?
Pooky Amsterdam: *hands surgical instrusment*
Steveo Rhiano: say more Dizzy
Dizzy Banjo: well i think it is.. im not sure
Dizzy Banjo: but i think he had this concept that objects have a virtual potential
Dizzy Banjo: like its essence
Steveo Rhiano: like Deleuze
Pooky Amsterdam: or kinetic energy?
You: well everything here is virtual, but it is a simulation still more than a virtuality
You: I think SL is inevitably more of a simulation trying to be a versimilitude
Dizzy Banjo: which i suppose could be equated to a connection
Cocoanut Koala: cept me, im real
You: because virtuality would be far more removed and people haven't jumped to that
Steveo Rhiano: how so Pro?
Steveo Rhiano: my question is a question not a simulation of a question to you
Dizzy Banjo: yeah i think youre right, I think Deleuze would say that a SL chair also has a virtual element.. beyond the way we call it a virtual chair etc. god this is going too far now
You: well because people are still here manning the avatars
You: and making houses and chairs
Troy McLuhan: Virtuality, to me, is more like a shared imagined world that has no simulation - like Middle Earth before any illustrations or movies or video games
You: but when they get really Connectivized
You: they will be AFK with the avatar doing stuff via AI
You: or something
You: and they won't care about chairs maybe
Khamon Fate: Yes a true virtual world is populated with virtual people
You: I don't look forward to that day of course
Pooky Amsterdam: they can sit anywhere its true
You: but already 10 percent of the log ons are bots
Pooky Amsterdam: & often at home
Khamon Fate can sit on the virtual ground
Cocoanut Koala: i think the lindens said 20 percent, i couldbe wrong
Pooky Amsterdam: but you can only occupy one throne at a time
You: really? they told me 10 I think but it could be
Khamon Fate: This isn't a virtual world, it's a simulated 3D space that's part of our real world
Cocoanut Koala: or maybe 15?
Cocoanut Koala: more than ten though, was said, i'm pretty sure
You: there you go Khamon
Cocoanut Koala: by the lindens
You: only the Lindens are real
Cocoanut Koala: well put, khamon
Dizzy Banjo: lol
Orange Montagne is Online
Pooky Amsterdam: what percent of our imagination do we use then here?
Dizzy Banjo: depends who you are
Dizzy Banjo: lol
Cocoanut Koala: what do you mean, pooky?
Pooky Amsterdam: our natural human insticnt to project as well?
Pooky Amsterdam: well if we are in a surreal environment
Khamon Fate: We use one-hundred percent of our imagination "here" just as we do every moment of our lives
Pooky Amsterdam: we are also imagining to a great extent
Cocoanut Koala dittos khamon
Pooky Amsterdam: the barriers to we cant fly for example are gone
Khamon Fate: We're suspending disbelief Pooky; there's a difference
Troy McLuhan: I don't have to imagine what Khamon looks like - I can use my camera
Pooky Amsterdam: oooooo Khamon I love tht
Pooky Amsterdam: hahahha
Pooky Amsterdam: but you can only "see" him here
Troy McLuhan: I could take a picture and set it in a museum
Pooky Amsterdam: & then it would have aprovenance
Pooky Amsterdam: if we want o discuss the future - what about the past? how has Sl changed from the beginning & is there atrajectory to the still unknown future?
Khamon Fate shouts: All Hail The Sacred Holiness of the Divine Anonymity
Pooky Amsterdam: Amen!
Troy McLuhan: I will admit that we humans do always have daydreams and imaginings going on though, no matter if we're using SL or not
Pooky Amsterdam: are we more or less vulnerable here?
Cocoanut Koala: halleleujah
You: well while you are on SL, do you then no longer imagine?
Khamon Fate: SL the project or SL the commuuuuunity?
Troy McLuhan: with Khamon's permission, of course :)
Khamon Fate: Click away, I've no need of privacy or anonymity here
Crap Mariner: my apologies... i am being summoned... apparently, this node called Crap Mariner must connect to other nodes
You: see it may turn out that SL is in fact the great killer of the imagination for that reason
You: ok Crap, Only Connect!
Dizzy Banjo: lol
Cocoanut Koala: lol crap
Dizzy Banjo: c u crap
Pooky Amsterdam: oooooooooooo no
Crap Mariner salutes
Khamon Fate: The population has undergone many revisions
Pooky Amsterdam: cu & call you
Cocoanut Koala: for what reason, Prok?
Khamon Fate: The project hasn't changed one iota
Pooky Amsterdam: *dials*
You: because you aren't imagining stuff when you are in SL, you are immersed in the SL stuff
Cocoanut Koala: well no
Cocoanut Koala: i imagine stuff quite a bit . . . then create it!
You: perhaps only those who make stuff do not allow their imagination to atrophy
Pooky Amsterdam: but you have to imagine wha tyou will do next dont you?
Pooky Amsterdam: or build?
You: the rest are just living in someone else's imagination see
Cocoanut Koala: sure!
Pooky Amsterdam: to see it & make it manifest
Troy McLuhan: I find that SL inspires my imagination a lot - because now I have tools that open up new possibilities for creations - things I wouldn't have imagined if I didn't have access to SL
Pooky Amsterdam: doesnt "god" do the same?
Dizzy Banjo: hmm dunno about that Prok, i think SL is a stimulation for my imagination, however that is dangerous
Steveo Rhiano: don't get that one Pro
Khamon Fate: really?
Khamon Fate: wouldn't have imagined without SL
You: well you know how children are more imaginative in play if you give them an oatmeal carton and some yarn and a spoon but if you put them in front of a TV, they just watch it
You: that sort of thing
Troy McLuhan: Why dangerous Dizzy?
Steveo Rhiano: every time I speak to you or this group
Steveo Rhiano: it is me speaking
Steveo Rhiano: no?
Pooky Amsterdam: yes & radio was better than televison cause the" pictures" were better
Cocoanut Koala: oui
You: I think it is but people treat it differently
Dizzy Banjo: its taken me a long time to realise this, which is hilarious as its so ridiculously simple, but i now know what my fundamental problem is with SL
You: yes Dizzy?
Khamon Fate: Yes Steveo and that's the point, it is you, this is your life
Steveo Rhiano: and so?
Khamon Fate: It's not a virtual life or some odd representation of a fake life
Dizzy Banjo: its what you said Prok, its the imagination of others
Steveo Rhiano: never thought it was
You: well that's what I mean
Pooky Amsterdam: &thhinks "this is your secondlife would be agood name for a show*
Dizzy Banjo: quite literally "your world, your imagination"
MarkTwain White is Offline
You: that's why it turned out badly because of adfarms and McMansions
Cocoanut Koala: the imagination of others is the fundamental problem with SL?
You: you have to ilve the imagination of others insteady of Shangri La
Khamon Fate: but Steveo, many people seem to think that it is
Cocoanut Koala: oh
Dizzy Banjo: their ad phrase is actually a warning too
You: that's why people keep wanting to have their own sim more and more
You: where at last it might play out as they wish
Pooky Amsterdam: or their projections- but we humans have been projecting onto inaminate objects since the dawn of time
Khamon Fate: Wull that's also a cash consideration now
Pooky Amsterdam: own sim & eat it too?
Steveo Rhiano: well because they are just "playing" rather than relating
Troy McLuhan: Well, SL is full of stuff that others imagined, true - but those things can be an inspiration for things that you then create. You *could* have sims full of only your creations, in principle
You: and perhaps they became less inanimate as a result!
Khamon Fate: LL are pricing themselves out of the market offering the openspace sims
You: yes it sort of devalues the rst of the product
Pooky Amsterdam: yes Troy but as we only "know" what we know not as inspiring
Pooky Amsterdam: I agree
Khamon Fate: Teh sadness though is that those expressions of imaginationlast a fleeting moment then disappear
Dizzy Banjo: the problem is we live in mainly the imaginations of others, but worse ( and i dont deny often this can be a great thing ).. our own projected imaginations, which is kind of stagnant, but its the third missing part which bothers me
Pooky Amsterdam: oh but then "here' you can actualize them cant you build or record it for as long as electricty exists
Dizzy Banjo: its the stuff which "RL" has which a manmade environment doesnt
You: like?
Steveo Rhiano: what is missing Banjo?
Pooky Amsterdam: what missing part Dizzy
You: I put in birds and stuff here, picky picky!
Pooky Amsterdam: what?
Khamon Fate: We live in the imagination of others constantly. Don't be deluded into thinking we know each other well at all.
Troy McLuhan: I'm not sure it's so easy to be creative without being inspired by the work of others. Isaac Asimov would go to the movies whenever he needed inspiration
You: well for that matter, a RL city is living in the imagination of others
Cocoanut Koala: i know you like the back of my hand, khamon!
Pooky Amsterdam: the stuff of Rl is also a surprise though
Khamon Fate: Even people we've "known" all our lives surprise us with their thinking and reactions
Dizzy Banjo: randomness, the 'natural', i suppose its the "sublime"
You: I mean, no need to think online is special then
Pooky Amsterdam: sure Prof that is so true in new york Times square is a great testimoy to that
Khamon Fate: I am the back of your hand Cocoanut
Cocoanut Koala: that explains it!
Cocoanut Koala: hmmmm you pretty
Pooky Amsterdam: okay but what about thefeet on the desk?
Cocoanut Koala: those are up for grabs
Cocoanut Koala: you can be them, pooky!
Pooky Amsterdam: okay so we all are living with some manifestation of someones else imagination
Pooky Amsterdam: hah!
Acoustic Guitar Sync On Version (55 prims): Initializing...
Pooky Amsterdam: okay
Acoustic Guitar Sync On Version (55 prims): Ready.
Dizzy Banjo: well everyones, which is pretty complex and interesting
Pooky Amsterdam: you know me like th etops of your feet?
Pooky Amsterdam: yes it is
Cocoanut Koala: yeah!
SparkleZ Dumpling is Online
Steveo Rhiano: well I am in your space Pro so what?
Cocoanut Koala: well no, i actually dont think i ever met you before
Pooky Amsterdam: that is really good - as some of it has lasted along time
You: people think you connect better in SL
Cocoanut Koala: but KHAMON, I know the color of his undewear even!
You: and Philip also believes that if you learn in SL, you learn better
You: is that true?
Pooky Amsterdam: what do you think prof?
Cocoanut Koala: why would learning in SL mean you learn better
Steveo Rhiano: better than what?
Khamon Fate: Philip believes this is a better world.
Cocoanut Koala: appealing to more dimensions? or hands on, or something?
You: I just think there are varieties of knowledge and learning, I don't need a unified theory as much as they do
Pooky Amsterdam: it has more layers & you dont have the barriers of real life constraint here- your fundamental set of reality is suspended
You: I'm more content to see the mystery o f it
Pooky Amsterdam: so you might be more opne here
Khamon Fate: Have y'all talked about the not new SLURLs already?
Cocoanut Koala: well that just proves Philip has never dabbled in his own bugs
You: 0oh totally Khamon
You: what a hose
You: what is new? and they don't work
skyranger Baxton: well i think our nation is being taken over by the web to many people ae txt messaging and instant messaging that when it comes to social terms with a person one can hold a convesation because we dont know how to talk
Steveo Rhiano: bye guys
You: thanks for coming Steveo
Dizzy Banjo: its an interesting thing sky
Dizzy Banjo: how people feel they are connected, gosh i cant use that word now, lol, in RL physical situations
Khamon Fate: night Steveo
Dizzy Banjo: if one person is constantly twittering or SMSing etc
skyranger Baxton: yes it is were in a global web 2.0 world with digital people leaving their traces behind on the internet
Dizzy Banjo: SL is the full on extension of that i guess
Dizzy Banjo: its 1 to many
Pooky Amsterdam: well there ar eold builds here for example
Dizzy Banjo: with no negotiation, you have to immerse
You: why is it 1 to many ? It's many to many
Dizzy Banjo: and its becoming more like that all the time
skyranger Baxton: i have emmersed
Dizzy Banjo: well i mean, if i am in this room now
Dizzy Banjo: physically, i cant be with anyone else
Dizzy Banjo: because im concentrating fully, immersed in this conversation
Pooky Amsterdam: only one throne at a time
skyranger Baxton: its psycological entertainment
Dizzy Banjo: many to many, would be if we had this conversation with 5 avatars, and 3 real people all synchronously
Cocoanut Koala: oh
You: you must not have kids
Dizzy Banjo: where some of them were in the same place
Pooky Amsterdam: oooooooooooo i dont want to multi task that much
Cocoanut Koala: hahahaha!
You: but SL as a space is a many to many space
Pooky Amsterdam: hahahha good point
Troy McLuhan: SL also allows private one-to-one chats too - IMs
Dizzy Banjo: within SL yeah i can see it like that
Pooky Amsterdam: would it be better if there wer efewer & we wer eforced then to congregate more fully?
Cocoanut Koala: for sure
Dizzy Banjo: and no i dont have kids.. lol
Cocoanut Koala: sl is too spread out
You: but people don't want to live in each other's imaginations
You: so they spread out
Cocoanut Koala: the same problem happened in TSO
Cocoanut Koala: so you find a graveyard most places
You: you can't force them to congregate; when they do, they get the welcoming area madness
skyranger Baxton: yes but still anyone can talk to you see your profile
Pooky Amsterdam: mmmmmmmm but they do go looking & yes people like to own or have possession or at least that illusion
Cocoanut Koala: and for some reason, there are a lot of people who buy a place, set it up, KEEP it, but never go there!
Cocoanut Koala: i've got such a spot in Rosieri
You: yes and they rent stuff and never come on either, I guess they like the idea
Cocoanut Koala: a private home, supposedly, with like 8 people living there - and i have NEVER EVER SEEN A ONE
Cocoanut Koala: at any time of day.
Hermoine Pennyfeather is Online
Cocoanut Koala: i wish they would sell their land to me
skyranger Baxton: yes that is true i go to all these wonderfull places and no one is there
Troy McLuhan: If someone wants to build their imagination, and SL lets them, and they are pleased with it, then isn't that a success? Do they need droves of traffic?
Pooky Amsterdam: im them
You: People will pay month after month just to be able to log on at will and the idea of it is sometimes more important to them I guess
Cocoanut Koala: for retention, one needs the appearance of it being a happening place
You: they don't Troy
Pooky Amsterdam: good point it is their thing of beauty
You: and that's why I think they shouldn't try to artificially pack SL with sign-ups, but just let it grow organically, they might retain more people that way actually
Pooky Amsterdam: it does tkae a long time to learn to build though
Cocoanut Koala: yep
You: I'm hoping to learn in my retirement.
Cocoanut Koala: hehe
Khamon Fate: I think they'll retain the same number of us, just not be lieing about it.
Pooky Amsterdam: I still havent "made " anything out of a prim
Cocoanut Koala: !
Cocoanut Koala: you're a prim virgin!
Troy McLuhan: Not everyone is going to use SL for building. I hadn't meant to imply I thought so
You: well look at I made! you guys aren't praising my handiwork
Pooky Amsterdam: *nods*
You: it took me HOURS
You: trying to fit the pieces togethr
Khamon Fate: People stay because they find a use for it, a reason for being here
Pooky Amsterdam: oh what lets see!
Dizzy Banjo: SL is constructed for people who think mathematically, even building, its pretty hopelessly unintuative
Khamon Fate: The Lindens provide no impetus to stay
You: see the little moth temple souvenirs?
You: in the middle there
Pooky Amsterdam: where in the center?
Cocoanut Koala: lotta math in sl, its true
Pooky Amsterdam: oooo
You: well Khamon, you have to find your own motvation
You: yes in the center
You: little souvenirs
Pooky Amsterdam: you got a fire in it too!
Dizzy Banjo: well, they employed a nuclear submarine engineer to make it..
You: yes
Pooky Amsterdam: wonderful good very totemic
You: Dizzy you are too funny
Dizzy Banjo: then fired him.. lol
Khamon Fate: A staggering number of people don't find their own motication though
You: somebody who didn't mind being cramped in a small space for days on end lol
Dizzy Banjo: lol
You: i know Khamon
You: and it can't be faked
Khamon Fate: If they're going to sit in front of a screen and push buttons, they want to be handed a goal
Pooky Amsterdam: um I might resemble that remark
Dizzy Banjo: ive been messing about with Spore
You: so SL will remain like bridge or cribbage, not for everyone
Khamon Fate: entertainmen or work related
Pooky Amsterdam: so has Hydra
Dizzy Banjo: which is fantastic for intruative design tools
You: oh I want to try Spore but I can't add another time suck now
Dizzy Banjo: intuative
Pooky Amsterdam: agreed
Cocoanut Koala: pretty much so, i think, khamon
You: is it fun?
Dizzy Banjo: yeah, well its actually quite take it and leave it
Khamon Fate: more like painting or gardening
Pooky Amsterdam: you begin an an amoeba?
You: are you forced to evolve the creature or can it stay at a level
Dizzy Banjo: the main interest for me was the music approach
Khamon Fate: truly not for everyone, only people willing to hack at it for fun or profit
Dizzy Banjo: you can stay at a certain stage i think
You: hack is right Khamon
Pooky Amsterdam: sell your spore on ebay?
You: but lo, progress!
Cocoanut Koala: hack - exactly
Cocoanut Koala: preferably for fun AND profit
You: Cytherea Eagle is *gone from the people list* and her signs are gone.
You: at least some
You: I have to go round and check more thoroughly
Dizzy Banjo: their approach to MMO , or rather decision not to do it is interesting
Cocoanut Koala: ancient's sign on Rosieri is mostly transparent now
You: oh geez he is impossible
Khamon Fate: I haven't gotten around to Spore either
Khamon Fate: maybe next year
You: yes Khamon like during Christmas
Cocoanut Koala: i have had a brand new super duper computer since a year ago august - and haven't as much as tried out ANY other game with it!
Cocoanut Koala: it's shamful really
Troy McLuhan: I suppose people do create games and other things to motivate others into using SL. Like how the Info Islands have librarians volunteer for 2 hours per week at the reference desk - they enjoy helping others
You: during Thanksgiving we always play the board game Cosmic Encounters
Dizzy Banjo: ha that sounds cool
Pooky Amsterdam: is christmas here any different than irl?
You: Well I volunteer at Ravenglass
Pooky Amsterdam: yes that does sound cool
Khamon Fate: not Christmas
You: no I don't think so?
Cocoanut Koala: i love christmas here
Khamon Fate: I have to be in HK then
Pooky Amsterdam: tell coconut
You: I made a Christmasy loft and had a Christmas day party last year and served exploding candy, so it was a little different
Cocoanut Koala: i decorate the shop, and put up a little shop of christmas stuff
Khamon Fate: no spore for you
Pooky Amsterdam: oh see that translates well
Troy McLuhan: Haloween is coming soon - I bet ther will be lots of fun haunted houses and stuff to see again this year
Khamon Fate: spooky
You: Halloween is the biggest retail day in SL
Khamon Fate: really
Cocoanut Koala: yes, and i didn't get around to making anything for it
Pooky Amsterdam: wowo relly? costumes?
You: I hope they don't plan for SL to be down that day as they did last year
You: yes because of all that goth and stuff, people love it
Cocoanut Koala: halloween number 1, valentine's day, number 2
Khamon Fate must build a Halloween Tree
You: every tenant has a pumpkin out etc
Cocoanut Koala: (I do have valentine's day stuff)
Troy McLuhan: Halloween is the 2nd biggest retail holiday in the USA, after Christmas
You: oh absolutely Khamon
You: surf the wave
You: make anything and turn it orange and call it your Halloween special
Pooky Amsterdam: do people drop in for trick or treat?
You: yes they do
Cocoanut Koala: christmas here suffers from the same problem as christmas in rl - people keeping their stuff out till february
Pooky Amsterdam: hahhahahaha
Khamon Fate: Any of my trees can be orange
You: I had nimrod yaffle for example last year
You: well hmmm
Dizzy Banjo: ah, the famous TrickorTreat Linden
Pooky Amsterdam: a nimrod raffle?
You: maybe make a pumpkin tree then
Pooky Amsterdam: oh read that wrong
You: haha
Khamon Fate: I just need to get them all compiled to mono with the new script that will delete itself on the owner's command
Troy McLuhan: So doing fun Halloween stuff is another reason why people use SL, see. It doesn't have to be deep
Cocoanut Koala: nimrod lived in atlanta for a while, wanted to MEET me - but i didn't want to scare him
You: why would it do that Khamon?
Pooky Amsterdam: no just fun
You: nimrod has been MIA lately
Khamon Fate: do what"
Khamon Fate: ?
Dizzy Banjo: i saw TrickorTreat numerous times at various parties around the grid last time.. all she did was squat and fart in the middle of the dancers ! it was utterly bizarre
Khamon Fate: We had an Atlanta meetup once
Khamon Fate: years ago
Cocoanut Koala: i quit all meetups about 4 years ago
Cocoanut Koala: i mean
Cocoanut Koala: with more than one person
Cocoanut Koala: i met prok though!
Troy McLuhan: There was a flurry of meetups organized after the first SLCC
You: yes meet-ups are hard to get through
Pooky Amsterdam: I can imgine they must be
Cocoanut Koala: this slcc - man, i looked at pics for it, but could only find pics of a few people at stroker's party
Cocoanut Koala: so it's like - it didn't HAPPEN
Pooky Amsterdam: although I did meet irl someone from Sl & it was great
You: no there's a lot on Flckr
Khamon Fate: oh why would it delete the scripts? People have asked for that feature so they can set out dozens of trees, get them looking the way they want them, then delete the scripts to mitigate the load on the server
Cocoanut Koala: oh yeah?
Pooky Amsterdam: & draxtor made afun video of it
You: ohhhh Khamon that is smart
You: so it would be like "remove script"
Troy McLuhan: A script can delete itself
Khamon Fate: yes it says DESCRIPT
You: I have a feeling this will be a griefer's holiday tho
You: this descript thing
Khamon Fate: It can, but the server retains it running in RAM for a few cycles
Khamon Fate: then it's gone gone
Cocoanut Koala: well i gotta run guys
Khamon Fate: How will griefers use it?
Cocoanut Koala: thanks for the meeting!
Cocoanut Koala: say bye to me so i can go . . .
Khamon Fate: Or are you just making fun of me for saying the Lindens withhold useful features because they might be used to harm the commuuuuunity?
Khamon Fate: see yas coco
Cocoanut Koala: bye!
Troy McLuhan: I think I will call it a day soon too. I don't know why, but I woke up like 2 hours earlier than normal today
You: I have to get back to work
Dizzy Banjo: yeh i should do stuff too
Troy McLuhan: Cheers
You: but I never had that thought before, or Dizzy's thought
Khamon Fate: That's the ticket. I can't provide that feature for my trees because it might one day be used by a griefer to troll a meeeeeting
You: so this was interesting
Pooky Amsterdam: okay Troy
You: I mean realizing that SL kills imagination as much as unleashes it
Pooky Amsterdam: indeed it was very
Khamon Fate: Thanks for hosting Prokofy
Pooky Amsterdam: it has a lot of merit wha tyou said
You: Khamon, did you go to Jack's office hour?
Pooky Amsterdam: thank you yes
Khamon Fate: Do I have to leave the Mainlanders group if I sell off and move to an openspace?
Dizzy Banjo: thanks for the chat everyone :)
Khamon Fate: No, I missed all the meetings this week
You: no you can be an honourary member
Pooky Amsterdam: would you mind if I pput the totme on my desk this week at show?
You: well I heard he didn't show up
You: heheh why not?
Khamon Fate: I was catching up from being on vacation the week before
Dizzy Banjo: take care folks, c u :)
Pooky Amsterdam: thank you Dizzy
You: what show is that?
Pooky Amsterdam: I hope to speak to you soon
Khamon Fate: That's not unusual; Lindens often don't make their hours
Pooky Amsterdam: thank you Khamon alos
Khamon Fate: It's very aggrevating
You: well people were very pissed
Pooky Amsterdam: it was good to meet you
Khamon Fate: night Pooky
Pooky Amsterdam: i bid you good even
Pooky Amsterdam: thanks again prokofy
You: bye

Comments

[raymon]

... where is the link to the audio & is there a video & did you forgert to post the times for each individual statement ...

[Prokofy Neva]

? I don't do audiotaping of these meetings, it's too much trouble and too hard to get everybody able to use voice, especially on the mainland. I myself freeze if I use it as I don't have the highest-end system. We type. It's much easier.

Of course there isn't a video. Do you realize how much trouble that is?

And as for posting individual time stamps, you have *got* to be kidding. I deliberately turn those off as they are annoying and stupid.

Why not focus on the content for a change?!

[raymon]

oh ... i made a wordle of the talk ... its amazing like a synapse ... check it out ... http://skitch.com/ifsphere/st91/connect

[Prokofy Neva]

well, look, you seem like a Broken Internet Child, raymon. Are you able to read text and engage with ideas without the toys and blocks to distract you?

[Prokofy Neva]

Wordles are *completely idiotic*. I never thought that Vernor Vinges scene in Rainbow's End about the shredding of the books would actually *start happening in real life*.

The Wordle is particularly inane because in this setting, it grabs the names of people as somehow "significant" and enlarges them, although they are mere markers of speakers necessary to see who is who in an online text situation. They aren't the essence of the conversation.

[raymon]

... exactly ... read somewhere you liked canadian humour ... after quite an enthralling post my comments were about timestamps & wordles ... will quit the noise now ...

[Prokofy Neva]

Oh, ok, my Canadian humour radar is rusty, thanks.

[Ann Otoole]

I avoid these new age concepts. seen them come and go. Penn & Teller would have fun with this stuff. Endless scripts for new episodes of Bullshit.

The most fun is this "wordles" thing. It appears to take "conversation" and turn it into some piles of defecation. Very intelligent.

People should really learn about higher order professor level humor and how it is all about bets to see who can get the most dipshits to go along with bullshit concoctions of theory made over a Friday night drinking session as though it were real.

[Darien Caldwell]

You know Ann, that's how Scientology started. A stupid bet between science fiction writers. It really is amazing what people will believe.