Last night's topic at the Sutherland Dam Club was "camping," but nobody much felt like talking about it. I guess because this thread rings every single chime could you ring, and then some, and it's hard to say anything new. Yes, camping is stupid. People should just drink one less mocha caramal fat-free milk half-caf latte, and they will have the $3.75 US they need to buy $1000 and live large in SL for a few days anyway. $25 US, which they'd spend on WoW to transfer a character or on Taco Bell and a six-pack, and they can have nearly 10,000 Lindens.
The people crying "poverty" fall into two categories, neither of which is the real poor, because the real poor doesn't have a DSL line and a computer with high-end graphics: 1) women who are dependent on parents, partners, or spouses -- and there are still a LOT of those women in our world, unfortunately -- who are afraid to spend money on "a game" because they will be challenged by those parents/partners/spouses whose cards they use/share with spending on something frivolous -- so they want to "earn their way" in SL and 2) IT guys who make 5-6 figure salaries who drive fancy cars and eat out every day who think it's ridiculous to spend money on a game and refuse to do so.
I suppose the Lindens have their reasons for not making it easier to buy 1000 or 5000 or 10000 packs right when you sign up so that people don't have to wrestle with the confusing LindEx. After all, when you go to France or England, you don't go on their currency exchange and try to figure out whether you should "market buy" or put a "buy order" at a different price, you just exchange your money for whatever rate they have at the airport, then later figure out you can pay less in town. So the Lindens need to have money exchangeable at the airport, but they never do that obvious thing so they must have some reason not to.
If camping is suppressed due to policing "search," then hopefully the economy will be stimulated by people buying LindEx. Because they will. Those two categories of people aren't poor, they are just fearful, lazy, or stingy. The woman who fears her husband can go to Rite-Aid and buy a $25 Visa card with $25 cash and then throw it away. The IT guy, as I said, can drink one less latte. The truly poor, if there are any *really*, are already not sitting in camping for only $10/2hours, they are going and getting the jobs on dance poles or joining the contests.
But anyway, we didn't stay on this topic, which is why I go into more here, but got on to other things, and then took a study visit to Ravenglass, to see the griefers' handiwork, and also had a very heated discussion about griefers and groups and infohubs and such.
[18:35] Prokofy Neva: Oxbridge scholar, is that from Desmond's thing?
[18:36] Troy McLuhan: Oxbridge is the name of the Caledon sim with the orientation materials... I gather it's a play on Oxford + Cambridge
[18:36] Prokofy Neva: yes that's what I figured
[18:36] Prokofy Neva: Seasprite are you in that community?
[18:36] Colleen Kesey: i was there just today. quite nice
[18:36] Seasprite Destiny: THere, Metanomics. Oxbridge is Claedon and NCI joint project
[18:36] Prokofy Neva: does Desmond have camping lol?
[18:36] Troy McLuhan: No he has something worse: librarians
[18:36] Prokofy Neva: camping doesn't seam like a Desmond thing
[18:36] Seasprite Destiny: yes, i am a Citizen of Caledon! Never saw campers there.
[18:36] Prokofy Neva: librarians?
[18:36] Colleen Kesey: oooo
[18:37] Prokofy Neva: how do you mean?
[18:37] Colleen Kesey: likes librarians
[18:37] Troy McLuhan: I'm just jabbing JJ Drinkwater, who has many branch libraries with frequent events in Caledon
[18:37] Prokofy Neva: oh that guy right
[18:37] Prokofy Neva: I went there once but he sort of hovered
[18:37] Prokofy Neva: I love your hat Colleen
[18:37] Colleen Kesey: thank you Mr. Neva
[18:38] Prokofy Neva: and gloves
[18:38] Prokofy Neva: only in Second Life!
[18:38] Doll Ah: hi
[18:38] katykiwi Moonflower: hi
[18:38] Colleen Kesey: i was going to an art exhibit so i thought i would go as Divinchi
[18:38] Colleen Kesey: but i have a RL hat very much like this
[18:39] Prokofy Neva: oh that makes it even more cool
[18:39] Prokofy Neva: what is its name?
[18:39] Colleen Kesey: the hat?
[18:39] Prokofy Neva: yes
[18:39] Prokofy Neva: is it like "cloche" or what
[18:39] Colleen Kesey: big black hat with red bow. LOL
[18:39] Prokofy Neva: Hi Angela
[18:39] Colleen Kesey: oh i have no idea
[18:39] Prokofy Neva: I haven't checked that infamous JIRA lately
[18:39] Angela Talamasca: hi, still rezzing
[18:39] Prokofy Neva: is it still cooking?
[18:39] Colleen Kesey: it was an extravagance at a low moment
[18:39] Seasprite Destiny: WOw, it is!
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: Hi Doll
[18:40] Troy McLuhan: I'd advise you to avoid wearing it to bullfights
[18:40] Colleen Kesey: indeed Troy, in fact it seems to only be good for wide open places
[18:40] Seasprite Destiny: or on a gondola
[18:40] Colleen Kesey: race track, etc
[18:40] Colleen Kesey: hehe
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: You look like you've been busy in SL, joined a lot of groups and such. How do you fall down on the camping issue?
[18:40] katykiwi Moonflower: thats a comment i would never anticipate Prokofy Neva: Hi Doll
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: er, that's the guy's name
[18:40] Prokofy Neva: lol
[18:40] Colleen Kesey: me?
[18:41] katykiwi Moonflower: i know!!! lol it was just funny
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: well I could call you "doll" if you like ROFL
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: but I mean that guy named Doll who was here
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: er a minute ago
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: with the blank profile
[18:41] Colleen Kesey: oh ok
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: his name was Doll Ah
[18:41] Colleen Kesey: ahhhh
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: and he had no groups or anything, born 2006
[18:41] Colleen Kesey: oh my
[18:41] Troy McLuhan: I think it will be tricky to enforce the new camping rules - because they are allowing for certain things like clothing models (i.e. vague exceptions)
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: so I said, "So, you've been busy, joined a lot of groups"
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: and he left ROFL
[18:41] Colleen Kesey: hehe
[18:41] katykiwi Moonflower: :)
[18:41] Prokofy Neva: oh well
[18:42] Prokofy Neva: this new viewer has so many annoyances
[18:42] Prokofy Neva: have you tried it yet
[18:42] Troy McLuhan: 1.23?
[18:42] Prokofy Neva: the groups are taken off your profile pie chart
[18:42] Prokofy Neva: yes
[18:42] Colleen Kesey: no i have not but i am about to do so
[18:42] Colleen Kesey: noooo
[18:42] Prokofy Neva: it is SO annoying
[18:42] Prokofy Neva: you cannot get at your groups easily
[18:42] Colleen Kesey: i use that all the time
[18:42] Seasprite Destiny: Tried the first RC, not th 2nd one.
[18:42] Prokofy Neva: you have to pull them up out of "communicate"
[18:42] Colleen Kesey: grrrr
[18:42] Troy McLuhan: I'm still on 1.22. It crashes my Windows PC all the time, but not my Mac
[18:42] Prokofy Neva: well I have no idea why they did that
[18:42] katykiwi Moonflower: i dotn know why the pie chart had to be switched around
[18:42] Prokofy Neva: they left a blank space on the pie chart
[18:42] Prokofy Neva: why do they do things like that?
[18:43] Prokofy Neva: it's not like it saves on dbase calls
[18:43] Colleen Kesey: oh maybe it is to add the word CAMP
[18:43] Seasprite Destiny: room for expansion?
[18:43] Prokofy Neva: it's not like I'll say "Oh, I can't get to my groups easily, guess I won't change them"
[18:43] Prokofy Neva: or do they thin kthat way?
[18:43] Troy McLuhan: Maybe someone ate that piece of pie
[18:43] katykiwi Moonflower: lol
[18:43] Colleen Kesey: oh Troy good point
[18:43] katykiwi Moonflower: with my m&ms
[18:43] Prokofy Neva: so now I have to hunt around and go to communicate then contacts then groups
[18:43] Prokofy Neva: three more clicks and screens
[18:43] Prokofy Neva: very confusing
[18:44] Prokofy Neva: why do they do shit like that? because they don't live here
[18:44] Colleen Kesey: nods
[18:44] Prokofy Neva: Angela did Andrew Linden answer you ?
[18:44] Angela Talamasca: coders have a bad habit of not using the code they write.
[18:44] Prokofy Neva: I gave him your test
[18:44] katykiwi Moonflower: many features added make no sense
[18:44] Angela Talamasca: nope
[18:44] Seasprite Destiny: Makes it consistent for noobs?
[18:44] Prokofy Neva: what would be consistent about it Seasprite? they took away an easy thing
[18:44] Prokofy Neva: you right click on oyurself and see profile and groups
[18:45] Prokofy Neva: if I click on profile and then a group, it's IM doesn't pull up for me see
[18:45] Prokofy Neva: that's the problem with that route
[18:45] Prokofy Neva: it cuts down on group chat
[18:45] Prokofy Neva: so is it possible they did that deliberately or is it stupidity?
[18:45] Seasprite Destiny: Oh, i see.
[18:45] Angela Talamasca: i'm using the emerald viewer (which i love, btw), so it is very different. i gave up on rc 1.23 bc it was so buggy.
[18:45] Troy McLuhan: Group chat does tie up resources... Maybe they will hide it in a submenu under the Tools menu someday
[18:46] katykiwi Moonflower: its like the cheesy beacon, someone bored and wanting to brag they made a change
[18:46] katykiwi Moonflower: look thats my change
[18:46] Seasprite Destiny: 1.23 caused voice problems?
[18:46] Prokofy Neva: well I found another thing today which wasn't pretty -- a lot blocked from search, randomly, like their new anti-bot thing gone haywire.
[18:46] Prokofy Neva: yes katy that could be of course
[18:46] Prokofy Neva: I don't know how they are really doing on this crackdown on gamed parcels and traffic fraud
[18:46] Troy McLuhan: Some folks in the SciLands told me that their parcels randomly didn't show up in search, even though they were paying the L$30 per week
[18:46] Prokofy Neva: I looked up the term "rentals" where the "search all" wasn't so gamed before, now I see more bot filled lots than ever
[18:47] katykiwi Moonflower: have you noticed any change? i have not
[18:47] Prokofy Neva: there's a bug in search whereby you cannot see it when it is checked even being a member of the group unless you are the group owner
[18:47] katykiwi Moonflower: bots still everywhere
[18:47] Anya Daligdig: ao off
[18:47] Prokofy Neva: well I haven't, if anything, it's worse as people go through a last spasm of it I guess
[18:47] Prokofy Neva: or maybe not, maybe it will redouble
[18:47] Prokofy Neva: we will be told that like copying "nothing can be done" and policing "doesn't work" and therefore we must "have a new business model"
[18:47] katykiwi Moonflower: just seating the bots on camping chairs
[18:48] Seasprite Destiny: hmmm..bots are good for some purposes..just not cheating the stats?
[18:48] Angela Talamasca: shortly after they announced their new bot policy, i registered my bots, and my land disappeared from search completely. that said that the bot exclusion wasn't in yet, so it must have been some sort of glitch. that was also around the time 3500 some odd regions ended up w/zero traffic stats.
[18:48] Prokofy Neva: well camping is a big outlay
[18:48] Troy McLuhan: I say just let people pay to be higher on Search - Places, just like with classifieds
[18:48] Prokofy Neva: now there's an idea you never hear Troy
[18:48] Prokofy Neva: basically just combine searcfh and classifieds
[18:48] Prokofy Neva: I don't know, it seems reasonable to have them separate
[18:48] Prokofy Neva: but camping is the poor man's classifieds
[18:49] Troy McLuhan: Well, places would only be actual places
[18:49] Seasprite Destiny: we have this world that is mostly empy..I know folks who are working hard on AI to staff info sims with bots.
[18:49] Prokofy Neva: well there is a humongous thread on this going now
[18:49] Angela Talamasca raises hand and waves wildly. lol
[18:49] Seasprite Destiny: the crackdown doesn't end that does it?
[18:49] Prokofy Neva: and Jack said something that has hitherto been taboo among the coding set
[18:49] Prokofy Neva: he said that LL will ask bots to self-identify
[18:49] Seasprite Destiny: Thread on the forums?
[18:49] Prokofy Neva: I'm all for that
[18:49] Troy McLuhan: I'm fine with using bots for legitimate purposes, like as tour guides or whatnot, but using them to inflate the "traffic" number is just gaming the system
[18:49] Prokofy Neva: yes on the blog
[18:49] Angela Talamasca: yup, i've been working away at my ai bots, which i lovingly refer to as evul botz
[18:49] Prokofy Neva: let me try to find it
[18:49] Prokofy Neva: Hi Orhalla
[18:49] Orhalla Zander: hi
[18:50] Colleen Kesey: hello hobo
[18:50] Prokofy Neva: it's a long weekend, I thought the Lindens would leave us with a blog at 6:32 pm with some harsh new policy.
[18:50] Troy McLuhan: Did you see that they fired Prospero Linden?
[18:50] Seasprite Destiny: Give us something to talk about over theb arby?
[18:50] Prokofy Neva: https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/land/blog/2009/05/21/further-clarification-on-bots-and-camping
[18:51] Prokofy Neva: yes lol
[18:51] katykiwi Moonflower: no troy,why
[18:51] Prokofy Neva: was it fired or let go with extreme prejudice?
[18:51] Prokofy Neva: I figure fired if he is there worrying about his COBRA on his blog
[18:51] Prokofy Neva: I doubt he was fired over the 1,000 prims thing tho
[18:51] Prokofy Neva: I heard they were "restructuring"
[18:51] Angela Talamasca: no, he said he was fired. lemme find the link
[18:51] Seasprite Destiny: too many hours in world? reached the limit?
[18:51] Troy McLuhan: I don't know why. He told the SciLands folks that he got fired
[18:52] Prokofy Neva: I read his blog that Dirk said he was fired on, but...it didn't say that
[18:52] Prokofy Neva: well over what?
[18:52] Prokofy Neva: being too smart?
[18:52] Angela Talamasca: http://www.sonic.net/~rknop/blog/?p=81#comments
[18:52] katykiwi Moonflower: maybe thats why we are getting great productivity now from pie chart man
[18:52] Prokofy Neva: there are so few Ph.D. lindens
[18:52] Angela Talamasca: there u go
[18:52] Troy McLuhan: I know him well because he's involved with some science groups I'm in
[18:53] Charon Mandelbrot: Hello all
[18:53] Orhalla Zander: hihi all
[18:53] Angela Talamasca: look @ comment 19 => "To answer some questions — I was fired. I don’t want to go into the reasons publicly. To answer some questions — I was fired. I don’t want to go into the reasons publicly. "
[18:53] katykiwi Moonflower: the health insurance problem is what scares many faced with unemployment, its so expensive
[18:54] Orhalla Zander: i found free health clinics near where i live
[18:54] Prokofy Neva: he sort of backs into saying he was fired down in the comments I see
[18:54] Prokofy Neva: well it wasn't over the 1000 prim thing
[18:54] katykiwi Moonflower: There are a lot of good people at Linden Lab doing a lot of good work, and I don’t want to start some sort of nasty public flamewar “he said/they said” kind of thing. Perhaps someday I’ll say what happened, but not just now.
[18:54] Prokofy Neva: and I have to say I find it SUPREMELY arrogant on his part to bitch that the reason Lindens won't talk to residents is because they are hostile and clueless and Lindens just don't want to bother anymore
[18:54] katykiwi Moonflower: translation: he wants a reference
[18:55] Prokofy Neva: well, fuck that shit dude, perhaps if you weren't such a BLACK BOX then people wouldn't be clueless, duh.
[18:55] Prokofy Neva: I mean, why should I wake up, log on, and find groups gone fromthe pie chart?
[18:55] Prokofy Neva: that's the sort of thing that if a sensible person were at the helm would never ever happen
[18:55] Prokofy Neva: you wouldn't let a release out the door with that, if it were a mistake
[18:55] katykiwi Moonflower: like the blue silver seizure inducing interface skin that no one asked for or wanted
[18:55] Seasprite Destiny: Ah, Prok, why should I wake up, log on , and find dead chickens in the pen?
[18:55] Prokofy Neva: and if it were a conscious plot, you would poll people and get a sense of it before making that big and annoying a change
[18:56] Prokofy Neva: er, what's that katy?
[18:56] Prokofy Neva: I don't know if I see that
[18:56] Prokofy Neva: but maybe I'm already having the seizure
[18:56] Seasprite Destiny: It's a silly example..but people are so used to these kind of inconveniences, they hardly notice.
[18:57] Prokofy Neva: truly, there were few Ph.D> Lindens, Cory was one, and Prospero was quite the Renaissance man, not just physics but music and such
[18:57] Prokofy Neva: it's a real loss
[18:57] Orhalla Zander: Ah hell prokofy, for all we know one of their grapphic designers had a lotta time to do nothing.... and played with the interface... and said to the boss "Hey look what I made" and they probably said.. Oh might as well use it
[18:57] Prokofy Neva: even if he is an arrogant ass, he wasn't my favourite, but I do appreciate what he represents which is brains and culture
[18:57] katykiwi Moonflower: lol it lasted 5 minuted before they added back the classic skin, and made the new silver one an option
[18:57] Prokofy Neva: Orhalla, but that "playing with" is more like "I think I'll wipe something out and leave a big hole". What boss would approve that?
[18:57] Prokofy Neva: besides there aren't any bosses at the lab are there?
[18:57] Prokofy Neva: aren't they all sort of in a big circle doing what they feel like?
[18:58] katykiwi Moonflower: orhalla: yes ! thats what they do, so they can brag look this is my contribution, particularly in the pre M days when philip let everyone work on what they wanted
[18:58] Orhalla Zander: They have different departments... and there's usually a head for each one in most buisnesses
[18:58] Prokofy Neva: when he talks so openly about being "fired" that does sound like some sort of "incident"
[18:58] Prokofy Neva: because other Lindens sort of just get eased out
[18:59] katykiwi Moonflower: he casts it in a he said/she said situation, must have been pretty bad to be a firing offense
[18:59] Seasprite Destiny: Is it as internet bubbleculture as it looks from the outside, or is that just folklore?
[18:59] Prokofy Neva: Orhalla do they have more normal departments now?
[18:59] Prokofy Neva: no, not folklore
[18:59] Prokofy Neva: well remember the gravest crime against the Tao of Linden, to put your own interest ahead of the Company's
[19:00] Orhalla Zander: Well... I don't know the absolute structure... but I can tell you what little i do know which is....
[19:00] Prokofy Neva: maybe he left work early on a Friday!
[19:00] katykiwi Moonflower: maybe he didnt send the daily love email
[19:00] Prokofy Neva: right
[19:00] Prokofy Neva: he failed to get enough love pats
[19:00] Angela Talamasca: yes, firing tends to be quite rare here in the bay area. that is, in startup land. mainly bc of litigation risks and all that.
[19:00] Troy McLuhan: He actually worked remotely from Nashville - so they wouldn't know if he "skipped out for tea"
[19:00] Prokofy Neva: well exactly, most Lindens who leave start warbling about pursuing other opportunities and spending time with their families LOL
[19:00] Orhalla Zander: I know they have a department for bug testing.... all the grid monkey lindens... they have a department for the interface.... which I also have never seen much change except that ugly skin.... and they have departments for some of their pet projects
[19:01] Prokofy Neva: ohhhhh is it possible that the new legal thing against remote contractors whacked him?
[19:01] Prokofy Neva: and they wouldn't put him on the payroll or something?
[19:01] katykiwi Moonflower: angela its damn hard to fire anyone! litigation is a big concern, and firing is planned out with cover your ass moves first
[19:01] Angela Talamasca: ah, okay, that makes more sense. they're tighting up their belts. removing remote employees, etc.
[19:01] Prokofy Neva: well he got COBRA he says
[19:01] Prokofy Neva: maybe they'd soaked him for all the code they could, and then they spat him out
[19:01] Prokofy Neva: I don't even know what he worked on really
[19:01] Angela Talamasca: but for some reason, i thought he was with lbnl b4 he went to ll
[19:01] katykiwi Moonflower: maybe he didnt like the pie chart
[19:02] Prokofy Neva: I went to one office hour and found him so full of himself I never came back ,but he had his fan base
[19:02] Prokofy Neva: with what?
[19:02] Orhalla Zander: some of their departments have lots of people that never even use sl... highly educated nerds that never log on... and think of answers that don't apply b/c they're logically correct but they've never used this place
[19:02] Prokofy Neva: yes Orhalla I get that imprssion with the whole Soft Linden debacle and the "share" return bug
[19:02] Prokofy Neva: have you followed that
[19:03] Seasprite Destiny: How can you work there and nt log?
[19:03] katykiwi Moonflower: thats a huge problem too they dont have knowledge of how things really are to work with
[19:03] Angela Talamasca: can't design/implement a sound system you never use.
[19:03] Prokofy Neva: I think they do have meetings inworld more tho
[19:03] Prokofy Neva: well some of them do
[19:03] Orhalla Zander: naw haven't seen that bug... but i trusted the grouped or deeded items... ones that show up purple on the mini map
[19:03] Angela Talamasca: ugh, that "share" thing!
[19:03] katykiwi Moonflower: the early lindens were in world all the time
[19:03] Troy McLuhan: Yeah, watching the newbies arrive
[19:03] Angela Talamasca: can't believe how stubborn they're being over the obvious.
[19:03] katykiwi Moonflower: when a new avie logged on for the first time they were met by someone like jeff linden
[19:04] Orhalla Zander: i mean i never trusted the grouped or deeded item system
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: gosh those were the days
[19:04] Seasprite Destiny: Like a company I heard of that wanted to bring in employees to meet virtually here an not let them off the compound.
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: Orhalla I have to find that thing for you hang on
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-5491
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: it's a doozy
[19:04] Orhalla Zander: thnx
[19:04] Prokofy Neva: Angela made a repro kit if you want one
[19:05] Prokofy Neva: well Orhalla you may be happy at the new mass liberations thing where you can make new custom defaults
[19:05] Prokofy Neva: I'm opposing it because I think it's an ulterior motive to smuggle in more copyleftism
[19:05] Angela Talamasca: yup, anyone who wants to try to repro the bug is welcome to im me and i'll drop the kit in ur inventory.
[19:05] Prokofy Neva: you might like it tho
[19:05] Prokofy Neva: Dusan has written this wonderful blog about that perms thing
[19:05] Prokofy Neva: I'm so glad I contacted him about it
[19:05] Prokofy Neva: amazing
[19:06] Prokofy Neva: of course, it's too philosophical for the JIRA but it's priceless
[19:06] Angela Talamasca: i do like the new mass perm impl. makes it much easier to set object invetory perms.
[19:06] Prokofy Neva: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-8049
[19:06] Orhalla Zander: ok...
[19:06] Prokofy Neva: well it is the first step in decoupling inherent copyright settings
[19:06] Troy McLuhan: There's a way to set mass perms now?
[19:06] Orhalla Zander: yeah me and my hobos never put things on share... we only set to group
[19:06] Prokofy Neva: it's a proposal
[19:07] Prokofy Neva: Orhalla, really? Why wouldn't you share? Don't you have a whole share ethos?
[19:07] Troy McLuhan: Oh, yeah, I'd love that. It can be a huge pain to get all the textures and scripts and subprims perms all right
[19:07] Orhalla Zander: yeah sure we do
[19:07] Prokofy Neva: yes Troy well you're a tekkie wiki so you'd love it
[19:07] Orhalla Zander: but as far as a city layout... we don't share the work to be modified
[19:07] Prokofy Neva: I had to stop using share, I used to put things in share but they constantly got malicious scripts dropped in them or returned so I gave up
[19:07] Orhalla Zander: we give our stuff away full mod
[19:07] Troy McLuhan: Well, I mean for things to sell - suppose you have something complex and you want to change from no copy to no transfer or whatnot, it's not easy
[19:08] Prokofy Neva: well exactly! who in their RIGHT MIND would put a build on share that could be returned?!
[19:08] Prokofy Neva: I mean Soft has NO CASE here
[19:08] Orhalla Zander: we set it before we start giving stuff out
[19:08] Angela Talamasca: yeah, with the new viewer, there's a permission button (next to the new script button) in the content tab. you can filter and set global perms on the object. it even walks through linked prims and set their perms. it's awesome and saves a ton of time.
[19:08] katykiwi Moonflower: that was a fast implementation
[19:08] Prokofy Neva: on the object itself Angela?
[19:08] Angela Talamasca: no, on the object inventory
[19:08] Prokofy Neva: oh I see it
[19:08] Prokofy Neva: yes
[19:09] Prokofy Neva: they've essentially already put in http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-8049
[19:09] Angela Talamasca: or rather, the prim inventory. bc it sets perms on all content in the root & linked prims. its very nice.
[19:09] Troy McLuhan: Does it also check the textures?
[19:09] Prokofy Neva: and note the big blank space there, which they'd like to fill with a Creative Commons license.
[19:10] Prokofy Neva: that's probably the thing they are promising we are going to be "happy" about but I will protest like hell;
[19:10] Angela Talamasca: it doesn't do anything with the actual prims. just the content.
[19:10] Prokofy Neva: but the next thing coming will be the prims
[19:10] Prokofy Neva: bulk change
[19:10] Prokofy Neva: which erodes copyright
[19:10] Prokofy Neva: it pressures people to share, copy, like Creative commons does
[19:10] Prokofy Neva: I find it horribly depressing.
[19:11] Seasprite Destiny: I thought that having rights to your stuff is what brought so many creative folks here?
[19:11] Prokofy Neva: It creates more of a culture of freebies that really lard up the world and ultimately undermine the economy, and people are not encouraged to seek payment for work, and that's wrong
[19:11] Orhalla Zander: I joined a wonderful LL project. Joined the Community Gateways.... getting tons of newbies daily to welcome on my group's island... which is great b/c it's the whole reason why we made the place... to welcome newbies.... there's a wonderful Linden that meets with all the CG managers on Fridays... very friendly.... on a negative side... i notice that not many newbies are starting out at info hubs as much, even mine... makes sense... tons more info hubs... and community gateways (player built orientation islands that newbies have an option to start at)
[19:11] Prokofy Neva: Orhalla, did you see my write-up of what's happening?
[19:11] Troy McLuhan: It should let people attach whatever license they want - not just their hand-picked set of prefab licenses a la Creative Commons
[19:11] Prokofy Neva: Your hub isn't even in the list on the Help Island I visited, your old one on the mainland
[19:11] Prokofy Neva: so no wonder the traffic is down
[19:12] Orhalla Zander: naw I don't think so
[19:12] Prokofy Neva: they have really messed it up
[19:12] Prokofy Neva: I've been barking about it
[19:12] Orhalla Zander: I met with a bouldin linden whom is currently a manager in charge of hubs
[19:12] Prokofy Neva: http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2009/05/the-awful-sl-newbie-experience-fix-it-m-linden.html
[19:12] Orhalla Zander: he had said he was visting all the hubs and went to mine and just wanted to knwo what we do
[19:13] Seasprite Destiny: The Infohubs with mentors? Ask any newbie who goes to an infohub how much help they get there.
[19:13] Troy McLuhan is amazed they have any Linden monitoring hugs
[19:13] Orhalla Zander: naw... i never liked mentors
[19:13] Sutherland Dam Tip Jar: Received donation of L$100 from Angela Talamasca.
[19:13] Troy McLuhan: hubs
[19:13] Prokofy Neva: Orhalla, that wonderful Linden of yours is great, but I've been trying to 6-8 weeks to get either Jack or Blondin, Blondin who promised to follow up, to do some just very basic things, and they ignore repeated cards, IMs, etc
[19:13] Prokofy Neva: which is odd, that never happened
[19:13] Seasprite Destiny: Oxbridge is a great example....super place to start if you are new. don't need to wit to be doled out answers .
[19:13] Prokofy Neva: they are studiously refusing to act
[19:13] Prokofy Neva: I feel they double-crossed us after we met with Jack that time
[19:13] Troy McLuhan: (hugs would be interesting. "My job at Linden Lab is to monitor all hugs. We have strict rules on what kinds are allowed.")
[19:14] Seasprite Destiny: Um, would that be a n adult hug...adult land for you!
[19:14] Prokofy Neva: they put in 12 of their own hubs, and they now directly pipe newbies there by default evidently, putting the "set home to here" automatically in their viewers to start, not through landmarks
[19:14] Prokofy Neva: and some help islands still have landmark givers, but they are on random, and stuck giving lots in a row, and some are missing
[19:14] Prokofy Neva: so it's like once again, they took an idea we had, and copied it
[19:14] Troy McLuhan: Are their hubs all the same?
[19:15] Prokofy Neva: and Moosehead is awful, it's constantly overfull because they pipe all the newbies there, it has 60,000 traffic, yours has 4000 traffic Orhalla when it used to have 20,000
[19:15] Prokofy Neva: no,. they build pretty ones, like the residents made
[19:15] Seasprite Destiny: Moosehead?
[19:15] Prokofy Neva: Mooshead is like Bear sort of and Hyles
[19:15] Prokofy Neva: they made themed ones like we had made themed ones, or like their old ones, Waterhead etc
[19:15] Prokofy Neva: but they are so crowded that new people landing can't ge ton the sim
[19:15] Prokofy Neva: they are not load balancing
[19:16] Seasprite Destiny: Ah, but are they controlling griefers at these places? the attracton of the private places is the ability to do so.
[19:16] Prokofy Neva: no
[19:16] Troy McLuhan: If someone registers from SL by coming in via a SLURL at slurl.com, don't they appear inworld at the SLURL in question?
[19:16] Prokofy Neva: they are at the Gateway ones like Orhalla has now, in addition to the mainland one he has
[19:16] Prokofy Neva: not sure Troy
[19:16] Prokofy Neva: one would hope
[19:17] Seasprite Destiny: Forget the first hour experience, go there and see pictures you have never seen in RL, you won't stick around.
[19:17] Colleen Kesey: moosehead, right?
[19:17] Orhalla Zander: yeah... from what i hear 70% of the newbies are choosing to go to the gateways... other than the option of joining sl at one of the LL areas/infohubs
[19:17] Seasprite Destiny: Help Island, too.
[19:18] Orhalla Zander: My CG gets very busy with newbies.... yet my info hub... is barren
[19:18] Prokofy Neva: Orhalla, then why are you saying newbies are not getting to them?
[19:18] Prokofy Neva: oh you mean the infohu
[19:18] Prokofy Neva: yes the Lidnens drained out the infohubs in favour of the gateways
[19:18] Orhalla Zander: I have a CG and an info hub
[19:18] Ravenglass Rentals in Winnipg $800 Mt. 1: Store rented for 7 days...
[19:18] Seasprite Destiny: I think I am the youngest one here...never heard of it, Orhalla.
[19:18] Prokofy Neva: and in theory that's because pepole chose them, I imagine some people may not understand they SHOULD chose them as better, who knows, they haven't given figures
[19:18] Prokofy Neva: but judging from the results
[19:18] Prokofy Neva: here's what I see:
[19:18] Orhalla Zander: Calleta's Hobo Railroad Info Hub
[19:19] Prokofy Neva: a) the CGS are getting the pick of the best newbies, those conscious enough to chose a theme and community
[19:19] Prokofy Neva: b) the Help Island newbies then randomly go to infohubs on a random basis
[19:19] Prokofy Neva: c) and somehow, some people are getting Moosehead and the other new hubs directly put in a viewer in "telepor thome" perhaps
[19:19] Prokofy Neva: I can't figure out that last bit, but that's where the lion's share of traffic is going
[19:19] Orhalla Zander: yar that's what i think too
[19:19] Seasprite Destiny: hmm, don't see that much on Help Island Public.
[19:20] Prokofy Neva: so basically, Orhalla, my effort to get them NOT to screw us over like that, by meeting with them in good faith, and discussing the transition, and making it more rationale, only led to them screwing us worse
[19:20] Prokofy Neva: that's how it looks to me
[19:20] Seasprite Destiny: Never hear it alked about in open.
[19:20] Prokofy Neva: not to you of course because you have a CG, and of course, I could go make one too like you and Desmond, I just don't have the resources and a sim to speare
[19:20] Orhalla Zander: Me and my group have spoken about it... but i noticed my info hub is barren :(
[19:20] Prokofy Neva: I'm just only now understanding the magnitude of how I was screwed and I wondered why I shouldn go on.
[19:21] Orhalla Zander: luckily the bots arn't showing up as much
[19:21] Prokofy Neva: Orhalla listen to me please: YOUR LANDMARK IS COMPLETELY MISSING
[19:21] Prokofy Neva: I walked through the new user experience
[19:21] Seasprite Destiny: How would I find out about it, Orhalla?
[19:21] Prokofy Neva: there are kiosks with the infohubs, yours is missing
[19:21] Orhalla Zander: I gotcha... it's alright... i'll bug a linden about it
[19:21] Prokofy Neva: so is Warmouth and one or another
[19:21] Prokofy Neva: I wrote to Amber about it, she's the one who owned and created the kiosk object
[19:21] Prokofy Neva: it would take her 5 seconds to go put it back in
[19:21] Prokofy Neva: will she do that? I doubt it
[19:22] Prokofy Neva: there's something I'm not seeing behind this, some plan, some resistance
[19:22] Orhalla Zander: prokofy where are these kiosks with the infohub lm's located?
[19:22] Prokofy Neva: not sure what it is, but they refuse to act, and it's been 3 years that I've raised this issue of load balancing, and they simply don't care, and don't see it that way
[19:22] Prokofy Neva: they are on the Help Island, when you first land as a newbie, if you don't take the CG option
[19:22] Angela Talamasca: i have been long thinking they're trying to chase residents out so they can woo big corps & edus.
[19:22] Prokofy Neva: you are put on one of the HIs that are replicated around, then you can opt to leave at any orientation station
[19:23] Orhalla Zander: ah that's cool.... i have a new orhalla account... i'll check it out in a bit
[19:23] Prokofy Neva: well ultimately, they may completely get rid of infohubs
[19:23] Ravenglass Rentals in Winnipg $800 Mt. 1: Tennant refunded at Ravenglass Rentals in Winnipeg.
[19:23] Prokofy Neva: well but you can only get on tthere if you are brand new
[19:23] Orhalla Zander: yeah... i got a new orhalla account
[19:23] Seasprite Destiny: okay, well, I hang out at a help island, shhh, don't tell anyone..I don't see many people going over there and clicking
[19:23] Prokofy Neva: of course they don't
[19:24] Prokofy Neva: what happens is they are more likely to click on the OTHER boards that only have three options: Miramare, Morris and a third one I forget
[19:24] Ravenglass Rentals in Winnipg $800 Mt. 4: Store rented for 7 days...
[19:24] Ravenglass Rentals in Winnipg $800 Mt. 1: Store rented for 7 days...
[19:24] Troy McLuhan: I think most people are looking for help in other places first, like the "Help" menu
[19:24] Seasprite Destiny: the regular help islands...the info is very sparse..except a big billboard that is not helpful..on the hub.
[19:25] Prokofy Neva: ys I found it sucked as usual
[19:25] Prokofy Neva: they may not be bothering because they may be getting ready to do something completely different
[19:25] Prokofy Neva: which M has talked about
[19:25] Prokofy Neva: like you land and go to jazz clubs
[19:25] Seasprite Destiny: I learned so much on Help Island when I was new...listening to other people get questions answered... getting help from Mentors...mentors are gone mostly.
[19:26] Colleen Kesey: me too Seasprite
[19:26] Seasprite Destiny: THe old ones have moved on to private gateways...the new ons are ot so knowledgeable.
[19:26] Seasprite Destiny: ANd I'd pay money for a spellchecker in the viewer.
[19:27] Prokofy Neva: hahahah
[19:27] Troy McLuhan: It wouldn't have caught my hub/hug error :(
[19:27] Orhalla Zander: I joined a RHN program... resident help network... it's a program for people with large and helpful groups... to urm basically give SL Mentors some competition at helping... b/c some of the mentors arn't very knowledable and urm.... i think rude
[19:28] Troy McLuhan: That's cool Orhalla. How do newbies find the RHN?
[19:28] Seasprite Destiny: Yes, I am part of one of those.
[19:28] Prokofy Neva: Ok, open up search/places with the term "infohub" and the story is there before your eyes: Moosehead with whopping traffic of 62,590, Hyles with 18,000 for somet reason, mine with 1649 and yours 4028
[19:28] Orhalla Zander: It hasn't really developed though... all these groups joined... and urm... well the lindens only had one meeting for us.. so it's stagnating... not too sure what they wanted to do with it
[19:28] Orhalla Zander: I don't know yet troy
[19:28] Orhalla Zander: that meeting was about 3-4 months ago
[19:28] Prokofy Neva: wow that sounds great Orhalla, I'm so glad something like that came into exitsence
[19:29] Orhalla Zander: i know NCI joined as well as several Language oriented groups
[19:29] Orhalla Zander: French, German, Japanese ect
[19:29] Seasprite Destiny: Wiki first, then infohub test..then moose
[19:29] Troy McLuhan: I usually send newbies to NCI - which is a partner on that Caledon Oxbridge sim I think
[19:30] Orhalla Zander: they are
[19:30] Seasprite Destiny: It is.
[19:30] Prokofy Neva: Orhalla, why did you decide to even keep up your original hub if you started a CG where you could control the land better?
[19:30] Charon Mandelbrot: allow me to ask a probably naive question..Why is it important where the lindens point the newbies toward?
[19:30] Orhalla Zander: B/C it's my baby
[19:30] Seasprite Destiny: and mentor greeter hub test as #2, isn't tht out of date?
[19:30] Prokofy Neva: because 9 out of every 10 people drop out
[19:31] Prokofy Neva: and we are trying to stop that attrition by making the experience better
[19:31] Troy McLuhan: Newbies stick longer if they find someone with a common interest fast
[19:31] Prokofy Neva: so people don't get griefed, harassed, bored, confused
[19:31] Prokofy Neva: where they land in that first hour makes or breaks their stay
[19:31] Colleen Kesey: i agree
[19:31] Charon Mandelbrot: hmm..makes sense
[19:31] Prokofy Neva: I don't recall any hub test when I just went through i Seasprite where is that?
[19:31] Orhalla Zander: It is nice to.... urm... actually have control on a CG Provoky... not having to call a linden for help b/c there's a griefer... and you can't get rid of them ;p
[19:32] Seasprite Destiny: i did search on infohub, as was suggested!
[19:32] Charon Mandelbrot: seems the lindens would want to capitalize on the new user and not see so much attrition.
[19:32] Croquet Hax: What I'm wondering is just how many more new avs we would pick up if the experience was fixed/improved
[19:32] Seasprite Destiny: and, could they handle the scaling up?
[19:33] Troy McLuhan: One problem with SL, that LL never mentions, is that it can be *too interesting* - I know people who ran away from SL because they feared it would eat all their spare time
[19:33] Seasprite Destiny: I thin it is a link for people who wanted to be menotrs.
[19:33] Seasprite Destiny: ah, don't tell the networks/cable channesl and bookstores.
[19:34] Troy McLuhan: Linden Lab could offer free classes on time management LOL
[19:34] Seasprite Destiny: But a firm really did plan to bring employes here and keep them locked up. they wanted no sex, no griefing, a ery controlled environment.
[19:35] Seasprite Destiny: limited shopping, etc.
[19:35] Colleen Kesey: no camping?
[19:35] Charon Mandelbrot: most of you in this room have been in world longer than me..and I sure remember when I got started that is was very compelling..but seems to not be as rewarding an experience as it used to be..
[19:35] Seasprite Destiny: Not sure as a noob I would have thought of searching on infohub anyway.
[19:36] Colleen Kesey: are we going to talk about camping?
[19:36] Orhalla Zander: i don't know Troy, I think it all depends on what you want to accomplish... i keep setting my goals higher for a reward of accomplishment.... and sometimes... do a lot of little things that make me feel good too.
[19:36] Colleen Kesey: perhaps i came to the wrong meeting. LOL
[19:37] Seasprite Destiny: WIth the freebie culture and MM board craze that has sprung up, do people need to camp for LLD anymore?
[19:37] Orhalla Zander: how so Collen?
[19:37] Troy McLuhan: We can discuss camping if you like
[19:37] Angela Talamasca: i've gotta run. catch a bite to eat. ttyl. :-)
[19:37] katykiwi Moonflower: bye!
[19:37] Seasprite Destiny: Bye, Angela.
[19:37] Angela Talamasca: see you later. :-)
[19:37] Orhalla Zander: LOL i donno seasprite... it's very rewarding in it's own merit to make freebies.
[19:38] Orhalla Zander: besides... the cost of some things... camping is only a few L every hour... you have better luck looking for pennies on the street in the city
[19:38] Seasprite Destiny: ah, or begging in the square.
[19:38] Troy McLuhan: I wonder if it's even possible to make money by having tons of bots doing camping. I mean, it costs money to run a bot too
[19:38] Charon Mandelbrot: I have never thought that camping made a bit of sense.
[19:39] Prokofy Neva: Charon one reason they don't care about it so much is that they can't really boost concurrency, so it suits them that they lose all but the most determined
[19:39] Seasprite Destiny: yeah, unless you have free internet access...or can figure out a way to background run SL onevery campus computer..it is not likely to make you much money.
[19:39] Prokofy Neva: Orhalla it's true, camping produces pennies, but people are very dependent on the idea of it and won't let it go
[19:39] Troy McLuhan: The reason shop owners set up camping chairs is to increae the "traffic" number on their parcel. Then it shows up higher in Search - Places
[19:39] Prokofy Neva: one way or another, there will be camping
[19:40] Prokofy Neva: people will put it in even if they are removed from search
[19:40] Prokofy Neva: they will just buy classifieds and camp
[19:40] Charon Mandelbrot: exactly..it is after all a business and if the users dont bring any money inworld..then why bother?
[19:40] Troy McLuhan: Also, green dots on the map attract people like moths to a light bulb
[19:40] katykiwi Moonflower: yes because dots on the map attract attention
[19:40] katykiwi Moonflower: yes
[19:40] Seasprite Destiny: You just join a group to get the word on it.
[19:40] Prokofy Neva: it wuold be interesting to see if more people would bother to buy a mere $3.71 US worth of money if camping were limited
[19:40] Colleen Kesey: is that what you think will happen?
[19:40] Prokofy Neva: I don't use camping, it's too expensive and too much of a bother
[19:41] Prokofy Neva: I put out a money tree which doles out a few bucks, that's the only thing I have
[19:41] Orhalla Zander: I have building contets
[19:41] Charon Mandelbrot: does "traffic" generate any revenue in and of itself?
[19:41] Colleen Kesey: i agree i don't use them either except turned off for local color
[19:41] Prokofy Neva: no not anymore
[19:41] Prokofy Neva: it used to
[19:41] Prokofy Neva: but they removed that system in 2005
[19:41] Seasprite Destiny: I can see some physics prof calling IT saying thir modes won't run, only to learn that sone has set up SL in background campuswide
[19:42] Troy McLuhan: Yeah so traffic only bring in revenue indirectly
[19:42] Orhalla Zander: i also give classes from time to time.... it generates traffic but it's unintentional
[19:42] Prokofy Neva: well people might rent a vending space if they think you have high traffic
[19:42] Seasprite Destiny: No, and the Hunters and MM maniacs and lucky chair tourists seldom go back to those palces and spend cash.
[19:42] Colleen Kesey: i agree
[19:42] Prokofy Neva: you know, some people do spend their camping money, but not necessarily at the establishment where they camp
[19:43] Charon Mandelbrot: so why do we want a world full of broke dick deadbeats?
[19:43] Colleen Kesey: i don't!
[19:43] Troy McLuhan: Some camping is actually quite creative, like window washers or bartenders who are actually just campers
[19:43] Seasprite Destiny: And clubs that put in a lot of camper pads and poles are generally on the death spiral of the drain.
[19:43] Prokofy Neva: well I guess because the Lindens want a Better World and want to help poverty and stuff
[19:43] Seasprite Destiny: yes, sidewalk scrubbers
[19:44] Charon Mandelbrot: haha..welcome to the bay area
[19:44] Seasprite Destiny: but why camp if you can get a better paying job?
[19:44] Prokofy Neva: generally I find the people who are the most reluctant to buy Lindens are IT guys who pull down high 5-6 figures a year who are too stingy to spend money on a game or else women who fear their husband seeing their credit card, that is a BIG problem I hear about all the time
[19:44] Prokofy Neva: they want to earn their play money
[19:44] Orhalla Zander: Poverty is ok in my group... we normally help each other out
[19:44] Troy McLuhan: I wonder if I could code a bot to play music like a busker and make people believe he was for real, so they'd tip him...
[19:44] Prokofy Neva: hahaha Troy
[19:44] Prokofy Neva: go for it
[19:45] Seasprite Destiny: hmmm, would he get AR'd fro griefing if they don't like the muic?
[19:45] Troy McLuhan: Nah
[19:45] Seasprite Destiny: Pole dancer camping...makes no sense..why do that when you could be a paid dancer?
[19:46] Troy McLuhan: One can work as a paid dancer in SL?
[19:46] Orhalla Zander: yeah
[19:46] Orhalla Zander: believe it or not
[19:46] Charon Mandelbrot: for pennies an hour
Seasprite Destiny: Dancer, hostess, escort, dj, model in a store
Orhalla Zander: i've got several members in my group that do that on their own time... and some even get tipped well
Prokofy Neva: yes they are all over Troy, where have you been?!
Orhalla Zander: lolol
Prokofy Neva: pole dancers make pennies yes
Troy McLuhan: I hang around with scientists and librarians and elves....
Prokofy Neva: I saw an assistant for a rental company advertised, L$25 an hour
Prokofy Neva: the pay can be very low
Seasprite Destiny: Wow...Troy. the medium is the massage.
Prokofy Neva: they figure people are online anyway
Prokofy Neva: I guess the scientists aren't working the dance poles!
Colleen Kesey: heavens!
Seasprite Destiny: only in their alts.
Charon Mandelbrot: never can tell
Prokofy Neva: brb
Troy McLuhan: "The Medium is the Massage" was actually a typo in the title of the McLuhan book but he thought it was funny and kept it
Colleen Kesey: hehe he was right
Prokofy Neva: well one of his books
Troy McLuhan: Yes
Seasprite Destiny: See, he needed a spellchecker in his UI, too.
Troy McLuhan: Well, but massage is also a real word...
Prokofy Neva: I had McCluhan for a professor when I was in university.
Prokofy Neva: he had both titles
Colleen Kesey: ooooo
[19:49] Seasprite Destiny: nice.
[19:49] Colleen Kesey: i have enjoyed the conversation but i am afraid i must run
[19:50] Seasprite Destiny: Bye, Colleen.
[19:50] Charon Mandelbrot: happy camping Colleen
[19:50] Colleen Kesey: hahahah
[19:51] Seasprite Destiny: Should've asked where the hat came from sooner.
[19:52] Charon Mandelbrot: It seems to me that the so called economy in SL is a bit strange
[19:52] Jothaxe Reitveld is Online
[19:53] Charon Mandelbrot: A very few have done quite well but most forms of employment dont pay enough to make any sense
[19:53] Charon Mandelbrot: Or am I just jaded?
[19:53] Seasprite Destiny: It's as if most folks never heard of opportunity cost.
[19:54] Seasprite Destiny: Some one I know, who is an academic professional making very good money, got all excited about making 1200 in tips in one hour of dancing. even after i did the math for her.
[19:55] Charon Mandelbrot: I decided early on to just toss in a few bucks a m
Croquet Hax: Thanks
Prokofy Neva: ok can some one paste me the log
Charon Mandelbrot: It just might be the future of VR
Troy McLuhan: I crashed 5 minutes ago myself
Seasprite Destiny: From B, Pokofy?
Prokofy Neva: well after the bit about McLuhan
Seasprite Destiny: From BRB?
Prokofy Neva: yes
Croquet Hax: &^%^&%&^%&%& chat lag
Charon Mandelbrot: Orhalla, I think you need a different pair of shoes..lol
Mica Cazalet: haha
Orhalla Zander: it's ok... i'm rather fond of these... a friend of mine whom is no longer with us had made them as a random gift to me
Charon Mandelbrot: they are cool..just pullin your leg
Orhalla Zander: i was just being obtuse
Prokofy Neva: thanks
Seasprite Destiny gave you log.
Seasprite Destiny gave you log.
Seasprite Destiny: sorry, first one not saved!
Prokofy Neva: thanks
Prokofy Neva: are they springy?
Orhalla Zander: yeah... i think they give me +5 agility
Mica Cazalet: cool
Seasprite Destiny: They look comfie. Best part of SL. no barking dogs! even in high heels.
Prokofy Neva: oh you mean in Strategic SL?
Orhalla Zander: actually they look just like my rel life shoes
Orhalla Zander: I'm not joking
Prokofy Neva: hahahaha
Prokofy Neva: who made them?
Prokofy Neva: I have some spring shoes from Pete Fat
Prokofy Neva: but now, they just spring completely away
Orhalla Zander: savi sieyes, died of cancer
Prokofy Neva: did Savi Sieyes really die in RL? I always wondered that.
Seasprite Destiny: DOn't guess they have prim toes.
Orhalla Zander: yes
Orhalla Zander: and yes
Prokofy Neva: was Groove Mechanique really in a terrible motorcycle accident?
Orhalla Zander: not sure about that one prokofy... but Groove is still heart broken about her
Orhalla Zander: she was really sweet
Prokofy Neva: well this was last week's topic, how you can verify whether someone really died
Seasprite Destiny: ha.
Prokofy Neva: Groove moved into Ravenglass and set up a punk store and used it to annoy me endlessly, then, instead of selling the land to me at even a high price, he put an extortionist price on it, and then, when I refused to buy, he gave it to the Woodbury gang, who put up a huge grief build there
Prokofy Neva: so Groove is not on my "sweet" list
Seasprite Destiny: even in RL..unless you see the body..how do you ever know? maybe snatched by aliens
Orhalla Zander: I'm ok with Groove, i've never done any buisness with him
Charon Mandelbrot: or sucked into WOW
Prokofy Neva: well I literally had to deal with him for years
Prokofy Neva: he refused to put autoreturn on
Seasprite Destiny: yeah. or captured by pirates on EVE
Prokofy Neva: so the griefers would hang out at his punk store and put selfreplicating objects with the tub girl in them, etc
Prokofy Neva: and I would endlessly IM him and ask him to put on autoreturn
Prokofy Neva: he wuold say he didn't want to
Seasprite Destiny: tub girl! Ihave learned something new.
Prokofy Neva: one day he wrote that he was in a terrible motorcycle accident and paralyzed from the neck down
Orhalla Zander: what was your relationship to his land?
Prokofy Neva: Here's what happened
Orhalla Zander: seasprite... you probably haven't heard of Goatsee?
Seasprite Destiny: goatsex? yes. Goatsee? no.
Prokofy Neva: Originally I sold all of Ravenglass except the island and had a community there, particularly of oldbies with the 4096 credit for life
Orhalla Zander: Goatsee
Seasprite Destiny grins. sorry, couldn't resist.
Prokofy Neva: gradually, they moved out to islands because the sim was griefed. So I bought back some of the land and rented it out, it's my main sim
Prokofy Neva: so then, there were two parcels left I didn't buy
Prokofy Neva: one was bought by Scout Detritus who put up a GIANT refrigerator to harass me deliberately, he's with the b/tards
Prokofy Neva: the other was given to Groove or sold to him for a low price by this long-time oldbie, I'm forgetting her name, she did it to spite me
Seasprite Destiny: ah, that is lousy.
Prokofy Neva: These were people who didn't like my writings and comment son the forums, so they wished to grief me
Orhalla Zander: awww i like Scout Detritus
Prokofy Neva: so Groove put up a store called "The Punks Next Door" and continued to harass me for ages
Prokofy Neva: well why would you like Scout Detritus? he's a total dick -- I mean utterly
Seasprite Destiny: Um, I think I have read about this.
Prokofy Neva: who would deliberately put up a fucking giant refrigerator to ruin a sim
Orhalla Zander: was very friendly to me
Prokofy Neva: well you see only one tiny facet of this person who sells arms to Goreans
Conover's Flight-Helper 6.3.3 (WEAR ME!): Flight-helper is ready and operational.
Prokofy Neva: so he put up that grief build, and periodically does various griefing things, like buys my objects on mod, makes them into grief objects and griefs people who think it's me, blah blah
Seasprite Destiny: Goreans get weapons?
Prokofy Neva: yes
Prokofy Neva: it's a very lucrative business
Orhalla Zander: I'm friends with several b/tards.... that are friendly to others
Prokofy Neva: they constantly have tournaments and such
Prokofy Neva: well Orhalla, you live in a nother universe
Orhalla Zander: oh that's a bad one
Orhalla Zander: lol i donno... i just get along with most people
Prokofy Neva: a universe where you don't care if someone shits on and devalues property and it can't be rented, and someone has to pay the tier on an empty lot because of a fucking asshole griefer
Prokofy Neva: so great
Prokofy Neva: that's fine
Orhalla Zander: there's only one person in sl... that i know... I don't get along with
Prokofy Neva: but I'm in a different universe, where in fact that sort of behaviour is criminal, and wrong
Prokofy Neva: it's not about getting along with people
Prokofy Neva: it's about griefers willing to spite and destroy other's businesses and harass them literally for years
Prokofy Neva: why?
Prokofy Neva: the point was long ago made
Prokofy Neva: I will not be going anywhere
Prokofy Neva: they can pick literally from 32,000 sims in Second Life
Prokofy Neva: so for them to move in a grief build deliberately and fly around and drive out those tenants that miraculously came even after the refrigerator
Prokofy Neva: it's juts pure malice and spite
Prokofy Neva: go and look at it Orhalla
Prokofy Neva: go and look at it and ask yourself if that is juts
Prokofy Neva: *just
Prokofy Neva: it' snot about being "nice" to people
Orhalla Zander: lol.... I can imagine prokofy.... it sounds awful.... I'm just lucky to get myself out of those situations
Seasprite Destiny: There is no due process here, nor much in the way of land zoning...either of which might help
Prokofy Neva: the b/tards began griefing me first merely because I wrote something about 911 on the forums, and one of them began dive-bombing me on a fake Muslim alt and harassing my events, and I wrote about it, and ever after that, they have harassed me mercilessly, becaues I expose what the ydo, I expose that they aren't the fun loving folks you pretend they are
Prokofy Neva: well this isn't about zoning
Prokofy Neva: i fyou want zoning, buy an island
Prokofy Neva: but I prefer not to be driven from land I bought by Internet psychopaths
Orhalla Zander: I'm not pretending what they are... i know they're dicks to some people
Prokofy Neva: you have to fight back or there isn't civilization, I don't want to go move to islands
Prokofy Neva: go and visit the sim Ravenglass and see what it's like
Prokofy Neva: I recently redid the entire sim to try to deal with the fact that all the front lots had views destroyed
Prokofy Neva: and you know what they did then?
Prokofy Neva: one of them moved in on an alt and pretended to be a tenant
Prokofy Neva: he got ban/terraforming powers
Prokofy Neva: I began to suspect he was with them when he built a bunker and started agitating me about petty things juts to be annoying
Prokofy Neva: finally I saw his rent expired, a day or two went by, I returned his copy of a house
Prokofy Neva: and he threw a faux fit
Prokofy Neva: and I said move on
Prokofy Neva: and I didn't eject him from the group, not fully sure he was Woodbury
Seasprite Destiny: yeah, I got a tour of someone's meditation build that got targetetd with a 400 foot sign...becasue they didn't like her companion choices...and no recourse.
Prokofy Neva: and sure enough, he terror-formed the sim
Seasprite Destiny: wow.
Prokofy Neva: he went and undid the terraforming and lakesimmed about 6 of my sims
Prokofy Neva: destroying all the tenants' landscaping
Prokofy Neva: sinking everything inhto water, or pushing dirt up in their houses
Prokofy Neva: a few moved out, a few were very upset
Prokofy Neva: we spent hours and hours trying to put it back
Prokofy Neva: see, I'm sorry, but that's crime, not fun, crime
Orhalla Zander: You know they've "won" in their thinking
Troy McLuhan: Can LL rollback mainland sims?
Prokofy Neva: no, they didn't "win"
Orhalla Zander: in their thinking....
Prokofy Neva: as a policy, LL will refuse to roll them back
Prokofy Neva: they claim that they can't becaues of all the owners on a sim
Seasprite Destiny: in RL, there would be recourse for that and damages.
Prokofy Neva: and I pointed out that I was on a sim as a majority owner with two griefer parcels
Prokofy Neva: finally I convinced one of them to roll back one of the sims, but that still left 5-6 that they couldn't
Orhalla Zander: They get off on all the grief.... but i'm glad you've stuck it out... i never heard of that story before
Prokofy Neva: today I literally spent 2 hours trying to unruffle tenants, get land and stuff back to normal, it was awful
Prokofy Neva: well I haven't publicized it yet, because I usually try the tactic of ignoring them
Seasprite Destiny: It happeend today? this week?
Prokofy Neva: but now it's been about 6 weeks, they are escalating, so that's when I begin to publicize
Prokofy Neva: yes this week
Prokofy Neva: I got the guy ejected but he managed to do damage over night I guess, not sure
Prokofy Neva: there were a few other alts not in the group that some tenants saw flying around and they think they hacked into the group tools, I don't think that's possible
Orhalla Zander: That's a good route to go... unfortunately... many of them try to get banned... in their mind that's winning... and they go make an alt and start the game all over again
Prokofy Neva: Orhalla, I don't like being FORCED into being a hobo by being impoverished due to assholes
Prokofy Neva: I want to be able to CHOSE
Orhalla Zander: good route publicising*
Prokofy Neva: well periodically I publicize what they do because I think it's important to link up the dots, when Intlibber goes around bragging that woodbury has reformed, this gives that the lie
Orhalla Zander: at the same time.... they get off on the attention... i'm just speculating
Prokofy Neva: Yes, that's why I'm selective about publicizing as I said
Prokofy Neva: my first default is to ignore, log off, etc
Prokofy Neva: I let weeks go by, sometimes they go away
Prokofy Neva: but the fact is, Orhalla, that does not work
Prokofy Neva: when Al Qaeda bombs a subway, you don't say, oh, let's not put that in the newspaper, it only gives them attention
Prokofy Neva: you report it
Seasprite Destiny: Ah they aso have hangers on who want to make their bones, and it escalates, doesn't it?
Prokofy Neva: Look, I want you all to come to Ravenglass right now
Prokofy Neva: just come there and see this
Prokofy Neva: see what it's like
Prokofy Neva: I will tp you
Seasprite Destiny: sure, would love to see it.
Orhalla Zander: ok
Croquet Hax: sure
Prokofy Neva: i have to take care of a tenant now anyway
Prokofy Neva: just fly to ravenglass
Seasprite Destiny: odd to end up there...when you use the map
Prokofy Neva: see this is one of the lots that got vacated when the Woodbury gang moved in
Orhalla Zander: no offense... i like the temple
Prokofy Neva: yeah, you would
Prokofy Neva: but picture it when it started
Seasprite Destiny: why does the tp to the sim go to woodbury?
Prokofy Neva: it was glowing, and had a big head on the top with the words GRIEFER spelled out, like a joker
Prokofy Neva: and a big texture that I was able to AR
Orhalla Zander: i was wondering that too
Prokofy Neva: because that's 128/128
Orhalla Zander: middle
Orhalla Zander: gotcha
Prokofy Neva: the build might be something one could tolerate but what happens is they all gang up here, fly around, bother people
Prokofy Neva: so 3 tenants moved out
Prokofy Neva: then they crash the sim
Prokofy Neva: that one who terraformed the sim and messed it all up also banned me from each lot
Prokofy Neva: and erased all the bans
Orhalla Zander: yar those actions are to annoy you
Prokofy Neva: so I had to go through with that
Prokofy Neva: um, duh, Orhalla
Prokofy Neva: it's wrong
Orhalla Zander: yar
Prokofy Neva: they are here not because there is no place else to build a temple and play FIC
Prokofy Neva: they're hear to annoy deliberately
Seasprite Destiny: wpw/
Prokofy Neva: and look at the refrigerator
Orhalla Zander: oooooo
Seasprite Destiny: It is grossly unfair.
Orhalla Zander: Personally, i think the fridge is the most intresting thing on the sim.... I like how it's got a store inside of it
Seasprite Destiny: Most people who come and leave would never run into this..but stay and you start to want some kind of self-governance and rules of civil socieaty
Prokofy Neva: Orhalla, it's interesting if you are a hobo and an opensource freak who wants to make an exaggerated and wierd world, sure
Prokofy Neva: and that's fine, but you could have your own sim for that
Prokofy Neva: without harassing people who want something more mainstream
Seasprite Destiny: uh, where is the fridge?
Prokofy Neva: there is no need to INFLICT that shit on other people
Prokofy Neva: it's over there
Prokofy Neva: big white glowing thing
Orhalla Zander: They might feel that way too, but i'm just gonna guess they got the fridge here to annoy yah
Prokofy Neva: It's about choice, your right to freedom of expression shouldn't suppress someone else's
Prokofy Neva: of course
Prokofy Neva: it was deliberate
Prokofy Neva: they are all in a group together
Prokofy Neva: and they constantly harass
Prokofy Neva: at times the PNs are involved and it becomes truly nasty with tub girl textures and such
Prokofy Neva: it's the same banal, repetitive round, over and over
Seasprite Destiny: Ah, like the PNs and the creepy guy who spams HIP all the time.
Seasprite Destiny: no clue why.
Prokofy Neva: if you had to try to rent parcels next to this stuff, Orhalla, maybe you'd get it
Croquet Hax: Emotional age of around 13...
Prokofy Neva: but you are trying to live off handouts or whateve,r you have a different model, try to respect that not everyone wants hobo forced on them
Orhalla Zander: well... as far as mainland... i pretty much think... if you've got mainland... you have 3 choices with neighbors... build something that mixes in wellw ith each other, build something out of place.... or ignore each other.... i mean they are paying monthly for it.... no i totally understand prokofy...
Prokofy Neva: I do ignore them
Prokofy Neva: I have had this sim for nearly 5 years, since 2004
Seasprite Destiny: what really annoys me, who has no stake in this particular fight, is the people who spam words of hate into my mouth when i am in a public place.
Prokofy Neva: they came in the last 2 years or so
Orhalla Zander: but that's as far as their builds go... i think it's wrong that they crash the sim and harass your tenants
Prokofy Neva: yes that's one thing they do with scripts Seasrpte
Prokofy Neva: their builds don't need to be here
Prokofy Neva: they are here to get attention and try to get a rise out of me and tenants
Prokofy Neva: it's infantile
Seasprite Destiny: I know, and no one will stop it.
Prokofy Neva: but I will just keep exposing it because one form of griefing they engage in is to pretend that they are "reforming"
Prokofy Neva: this is their latest mantra
Seasprite Destiny: and they get publicity for it.
Orhalla Zander: my only suggestion would be something you're waiting for... buy the land whenever it become available :P
Seasprite Destiny: covered in the papers, etc.
Prokofy Neva: well I don't pay extortionists
Prokofy Neva: so when Groove puts out a 2048 m2 lot for $250 US, I don't pay thaqt
Prokofy Neva: that's what your lovely friend Groove hoped to do
Prokofy Neva: soak me for $250 or $300 US to get "protection"
Prokofy Neva: but, I'm not interested in playing
Orhalla Zander: btw, prokofy... i'm friends with almost half of sl... so plz... don't hold that against me
Prokofy Neva: so it was no surprise that he gave it to Woodbury, or sold it to them for some normal price of course
Seasprite Destiny: SHoot, Prokofy, I would chip in ten bucks US.
Prokofy Neva: I thought of that Seasprite
Prokofy Neva: I had another griefer lot on here tht flipper bought to harass me
Seasprite Destiny: yeah.
Prokofy Neva: and Clubside was very kind and bought it and gave it to me
Prokofy Neva: he's a prince
Prokofy Neva: but I didn't want to feed them AGAIN
Prokofy Neva: it's just endless then
Prokofy Neva: they would go on 65 sims where I own land and buy land near me to extort with
Prokofy Neva: See it's not about me, try to get that Orhalla
Prokofy Neva: what they are trying to prove is that people who try to form mainland communities and voluntary rules and make things nice are chumps
Prokofy Neva: they are really like terrorists, they want to destroy people's efforts at civilization and make a mockery of them
Prokofy Neva: they want people to feel anger and humiliation and want them not to take SL seriously, to be dislodged from immersion
Prokofy Neva: they constantly rant about how people shouldn't have e-lawns and e-houses
Prokofy Neva: to which I can only say again, no, you don't get to force that on me
Seasprite Destiny: but they have e-subs?
Prokofy Neva: if my tenants wish to make e-lawns, they get to make e-lawns
Prokofy Neva: yes Seasprite but they justify their e-subs as being very narf narf see
Seasprite Destiny: haha.
Prokofy Neva: it's all on the Soviet thing because I speak Russian, etc
Prokofy Neva: Soviet flag up on the sky etc
Orhalla Zander: either way Prokofy I really do understand
Prokofy Neva: not really
Seasprite Destiny: but this gets done to tohers all the time, jsut not so noticeable...
Prokofy Neva: because you think the pyramid is aesthetic and the refrigerator interesting and you scorn little cottages and e-lawns
Prokofy Neva: I get all that
Orhalla Zander: actaully i think both the fridge and the pyramid are not aesthetic
Prokofy Neva: I just respect what my tenants want and I think they deserve choice
Prokofy Neva: you just admired them tho
Prokofy Neva: yo usaid they were ok builds
Orhalla Zander: I enjoy them b/c i know they were actually built by the owners
Orhalla Zander: but i totally understand the need to have your tenants happy
Orhalla Zander: you're not the only friend i have whom has renters
Seasprite Destiny: To me it is on the continuum wi=th PNs or PN wannabes who blanket HIP with porn pics in grief attacks...things no one will do anything about.
Prokofy Neva: I think it's really vicious to grief someone for years on end
Prokofy Neva: it's puzzling, I tried to make an alt the other day to test the infohubs? I couldn't, it wouldn't let me, it said "you have reached your family limit"
Prokofy Neva: yet people who grief and make bots can make hundreds
Prokofy Neva: becaues they don't put in their real names
Seasprite Destiny: I am a renter, I rent from someone who controls the little community ery well.
Seasprite Destiny: ah, five.
Prokofy Neva: well I just adjust to whatever happens
Prokofy Neva: after I lost the view here I put up a forest and cottages
Prokofy Neva: I will make skyboxes, whatever
Prokofy Neva: I'm not going anywhere
Seasprite Destiny: they know how to disguise their addresses
Prokofy Neva: it's my home sim
Seasprite Destiny: Can we see part of it that looks the way you like?
Prokofy Neva: well I have this tower and market here across the water
Prokofy Neva: then fly up on the top of the hill
Prokofy Neva: Originally a guy landscaped a park in Ravenglass across the middle of it when I first made it, and I sold the lots aruond it and tried to keep the park going in the middle
Prokofy Neva: the paths are still here
Prokofy Neva: I made a mini version o fyour bench Orhalla
Orhalla Zander gave you Park Bench LW (with sit pos).
Prokofy Neva: it's in my art work
Orhalla Zander: we've been dealin in sculpties lately
Prokofy Neva: very tiny
Orhalla Zander: 2 prim bench i just gave you
Prokofy Neva: thanks
Prokofy Neva: see I'll show you what I made
Prokofy Neva: I used the Marlin textures to make a point
Prokofy Neva: see your bench in there?
Orhalla Zander: yes
Orhalla Zander: i think that's arcadias
Prokofy Neva: it took a lot to get it into the tiny mode
Prokofy Neva: yes yes
Orhalla Zander: the 2 prim bench is rather nice
Orhalla Zander: sculpted
Prokofy Neva: ok i'll have to put it out I have parks all over
Seasprite Destiny: thanks.
Orhalla Zander: it's not as nice as that one you've got out, but it serves it's purpose of being low prim
Prokofy Neva: the one I have is an oldbie prim monster yes
Prokofy Neva: I just have the prims here so I put it out but most sims I do not
Seasprite Destiny: wow.
Seasprite Destiny: It's nice.
Prokofy Neva: had to make a forest to block the view of the big pink pyramid stuff down below
Prokofy Neva: I have docks and paths and stuff
Prokofy Neva: well originally it was a community where I sold land, and everyone said I was crazy
Prokofy Neva: they all said it would be griefed or land barons would flip it
Prokofy Neva: I made an open community with land for sale to strangers on the mainland
Prokofy Neva: all the oldbies back then thought I was crazy or they even got angry
Prokofy Neva: I just sort of naively put out notecards asking people not to block the view, it worked
Orhalla Zander: heyo ian
Orhalla Zander: i have to relog to get voice to work
ian Boffin: hi
Orhalla Zander: prokofy meet ian... ian meet prokofy
ian Boffin: he dude
Seasprite Destiny: HI, Ian.
Prokofy Neva: Hi
Croquet Hax: Hello
ian Boffin: i've heard alot about you
Prokofy Neva: I'll bet!
ian Boffin: another member of the joined in 2004 club
Prokofy Neva: yes
Prokofy Neva: I don't recall hearing your name before
Prokofy Neva: there was a Susie Boffin I think
ian Boffin: do you use voice?
Prokofy Neva: yes but it takes so long to turn on
Prokofy Neva: do you need to have voice, I can put it on
ian Boffin: can you hear it?
Prokofy Neva: yes I just crash with it sometimes hang on
Orhalla Zander: ian normally uses voice is all.... not much of a typer unless he has to
ian Boffin: ahem
ian Boffin: is it on yet?
ian Boffin gave you i am cardboard man.
ian Boffin: http://revver.com/video/865094/first-draft-iron-man-trailer/
Prokofy Neva: now I can't hear again
Prokofy Neva: drat
ian Boffin: http://revver.com/video/865094/first-draft-iron-man-trailer/
ian Boffin: check it
Prokofy Neva: I will
Orhalla Zander: http://www.pixlr.com/editor/
Orhalla Zander gave you The Man Shack Final Final.