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« The Future is NOW | Main | Bridge Too Far? »

June 16, 2009

Comments

Holocluck Henly

To say Marianne is an ageplayer is to be engaged in libel. I'm sorry you have this attitude about not letting the general public check out the new continent, its unique terrain and SLDPW builds. To you it's like its very existence represents being caught naked. Well I'm sure someone can delve into why for a price. I think you just don't like kids in general or the image of kids. I think you blame people like Marianne for Zindra's existence and not the insensitivity of the explicit community (can't call them mature OR adult personally) with regard to the multicultural diversity of the Internet and Second Life. OR face the fact that the Lindens could have continued working on improving existing lands and transportation projects instead of stopping to make Zindra since people COULDNT follow the terms and keep their smut indoors, from the woman selling attachments in open air near one of my lands now to the fool who last year had a glass gallery right on the border of PG land filled with photos of sex acts. Maybe if you turned your bitterness to the people who really caused this to happen instead of people who don't give a hang what you'll be doing once Zindra is settled, dharma might be on your side a little more.

Mosher

no the adult grid is for adults, its for sex

if you're fingering your succulent asshole and tugging on your schlong whilst child roleplayers and talking about their daddy which one is going to get banned? I'd put my bets on the adult.

Children roleplayers are allowed in the adult grid, allowed to walk, talk, play, explore, watch just not intercourse eh?

Disgusting

Ravishal Bentham

This isn't about Marianne. I have no idea why she was there and it does make her look bad. Perhaps she has a good reason, I dunno. What this is really about is Linden Labs being inconsistent in enforcing their policies. C'mon Blondin, didn't you give a thought to what was happening around you? You (LL) just shot another hole in your foot.

Daniel Regenbogen

Last time I walked through lets say Hamburgs amusement district, streets weren't closed to RL kids. Sure, they weren't allowed to step into the bars, brothels, whatever - but they weren't banned from public places.

This is just typical Prok, black and white, and what she doesn't know she doesn't understand she doesn't respect.

I think it's even more "funny" right now when this new continent was just opened and people invited to have a look.

Thankfully people like that do not rule the world - neither the real one nor this artificial one (they are trying, though, and everything Prok "uncovers" as communist dictatorship will look like a happy playground compared to a world ruled by substitute gods and wannabe-moralists).

Mosher

if a Euro user is snapped with a kid avi next to them and theyre doing something sexual its prison for them.

kid porn is kid porn regardless of whether its a story, typed text, photos, cartoons.

I don't know how it is in America but they're definitely risking a lot of their users asses by allowing 'children' to 'play' near penis on thier new land

Eirik

Disgusting from the Lindens, and from Marianne. I for one did believe she was one of the few child avatars who weren't there just for child porn. Bah.

ichabod Antfarm

I was there in Mosh last night when Blondin Linden made that statement. Marianne McCann "volunteered" that Chandra should read the Second Life wiki article concerning child avatars, suggesting that it might be "helpful". So, I checked it out myself and this caught my eye:

Creating areas for the purpose of sexual ageplay is not allowed and is ARable. This includes having items with sexual content (sexual poseballs or equipment) in proximity to items traditionally associated with children (swingsets, etc.)

Seems very clear. Now, I would suggest that enormous phalluses would constitute "sexual content" and, further, that "items traditionally associated with children" might include actual "children" themselves in the form of child avatars.

So, if you make a place where child avatars (and their trappings) are found in proximity to sexual content then, by the Linden standard, you are "creating areas for the purpose of sexual ageplay." Seems to me that it's the Lindens who need to be ARed on this one.

Kailind Tigerpaw

I'm the first to agree that child avatars are creepy. However, at the moment, Zindra is just a lot of empty land with some so-so quality mole builds on it. I think that it's not unreasonable for child AVs to go by and take a look before the place turns into Pornsylvania.

I have to admit, I went and took a look because it was new land, not becuase I'm interested in walking on the wild side of things. I'm one of those who might never go back after the land is populated, but new continents beckon to the curious.

Holocluck Henly

Wow how many of you ARE age verified anyway? Okay, how many of you are from a repressed religious upbringing? Ah. Okay it had to be at least one of those...

So you're saying the preview period of the new continent counts as having been settled and occupied? Or maybe you are using a special viewer from the rest of us.

And why do you keep using the term "age player" when that has a specific definition which does not apply to any of the kids depicted in your tirades or images? Are you ARing them and giving the Lindens more bullshit to waste time on instead of letting them improve the grid? That in itself might be ARable. You could be SL's greatest enemy at that.

And what's with the stupid sex talk? Was that supposed to shock anybody? Not where I come from. It's got all the impact of calling someone a doodie-head.

ichabod Antfarm

Kailind,

It's not unreasonable for residents to want to go take a look and it's not unreasonable to expect child avatars to either put on an adult appearance or switch to an adult alt before going off to explore a XXX rated area of Second Life. Why the fuck do these precious ones need to go there in child form? It's provocative, it's self-absorbed, and, once again, it puts all child avatars under suspicion. Thanks a lot, Marianne, you have done so much for the Second Life children community!

Dale Innis

My own hope is that most of the grid will ultimately be Adult land (Zindra, other Adult mainland continents if any, and Adult estates); I expect that most people who are adults will want to be treated as adults, not as minors. (Talking about personal / recreational / creative regions here; corporate and educational regions may be mostly PG, I don't know.)

If I were starting out in SL now, I would want to live on the Adult grid, just to avoid vague ARs based on some prudish neighbor thinking some artwork in my park was "too photorealistic" or something.

So to my mind Zindra and other Adult lands aren't just for sex, they're for anyone who wants to be governed only by the ToS and not by the rather vague and draconian Adult definitions as well. I think lots of people will have their houses and galleries and hangouts on adult land, even if nothing sexual is happening there 99% of the time.

If that's the way it works out, then banning child AVs from Adult continents or Adult land would be inappropriate, since much of what happens on Adult land wouldn't be sexual or otherwise kid-unfriendly. So I think it's good that the Lindens are taking the approach that they are, at least until we see how things work out.

(I hope this doesn't annoy you too much or make you feel stalked, Profoky. :) I just wanted to outline an alternative view on the subject.)

Crap Mariner

I'm shocked that anybody was able to dance there. Heavy sim load due to the curious.

Blondin's actions and his response when compared to Ken's statement of the policy has me raising both eyebrows. Caught with him pants down in more ways than one, although I don't think Marianne's actions were intended as sexual ageplay.

I've said before that I'm concerned that LL's inconsistency in enforcement of rules and inadequate training of its staff will lead to issues. This appears to be an artifact of this problem very early on what will certainly be an interesting history of Zindra. (Just be sure to wear rubber gloves when reading that book, okay?)

Time for those six magic words: NO GOOD WILL COME FROM THIS.

-ls/cm

Darien Caldwell

There are plenty of places where 'kids can be kids' in SL. Zindra isn't one of them.

melponeme_k

And here we were thinking that LL was actually worried about their image.

Once the prosecutors in the EU and in America get ahold of this, LL will be nailed to the wall. And even more so when Nancy Grace starts running with it on shout TV.

Child AVs on a grid created specifically for sexualized activity is wrong. Its wrong whether there is content there or not.

And NO, wanting to be a Child AV is not the same mindset as wanting to be a TINY bunny.

Holocluck Henly

Thanks to those who understand that Zindra isn't yet open for business.

We all agree that Zindra serves a purpose and anyone not using the land with intent for some sort of Adult content or activity would be a slap in the face of all this work.

For now, this is preview time, where everyone can see the terrain and builds, and future inhabitants can scout for their location.
That's all Zindra is and nothing further. No one here has a claim to it before then.

All of SL celebrates a significant addition to the map. Pity those who cry for diversity and lack tolerance.

The adults who are portraying kids won't be in evidence once the settling begins. Question the ones who do when the time comes, but that time has not arrived.

Darien Caldwell

I don't get this attitude of "Lets wait until it becomes a huge issue before talking about it." Makes people sound like they work for LL.

Pre-planning, and solving issues *before* they become problems is always key in life, business, and anywhere really.

This *is* the time to be discussing it, not waiting until someone gets banned over it.

Prokofy Neva

Holocluck, your constant posturing and hectoring on the forums has given you the illusion that you "run things" and can "thank everyone" for their understanding like the Lindens appointed you managing.

Bullshit. You speak for no one, neither resident or Linden.

It doesn't MATTER if Zindra isn't "open for business". It was sure open for business for Dirk Talamasca to come and dance in a big prim dick avatar (turns out it was him. Sigh.)

So spare me the idiocy of claiming that dancing around as a kid on land where it isn't filled with content yet is an alibi when the dicks were the first to arrive -- duh -- as they do at all WAs, and as they are ENCOURAGED to do by the new dispensation.

To keep harping on this tekkie literalism that it is just open for scouting now is ridiculous when the Lindens themselves have now repeatedly, on the record, formally, within their lawyers' loophole, said that child avatars WILL BE ALLOWED on the adult continent PERIOD -- not just during the open-house pre-content-filling period.

So stop it with the know-it-all hectoring bullshit and back off.

Cease immediately to imagine that you represent the "Tolerance and Diversity Commitee" of SL and that THIS represents an issue of tolerance and diversity. It doesn't. It represents an issue of CRIME and IMMORALITY which, if allowed to proceed unchecked, removes our wonderful platform of, um, tolerance and diversity completely, and/or gets it dumbed and nerfed significantly to meet the needs of various powerful RL constituencies -- of the sort some say already mandated this adult move in the first place (I think they overstate the case; they sure won't overstate the case once Fox News gets the screens from the dancing kiddies and dancing dicks. Ugh.)

Your notion that the "adults portraying kids won't be in evidence" is WRONG. You are a stubbornly resisting the facts as have been presented here repeatedly. People like Daniel and Marianne, and even Abby represent a persistent, and aggressive LOBBY. They don't stop when it is appropriate; they keep pushing and pushing.

Only a strenous outcry to get the lib Lindens to get over their loophole on this and see it starkly as it will be seen outside their magic circle will work.

No amount of calling on the child avatar community to show prudence will work, not when they are aggressively and belligerently trying to prove that they have every right to run around the adult grid.

Prokofy Neva

>Last time I walked through lets say Hamburgs amusement district, streets weren't closed to RL kids. Sure, they weren't allowed to step into the bars, brothels, whatever - but they weren't banned from public places.

Normal parents don't take their kids walking through such districts, or let them roam through it unsupervised. And in RL, you can't webcam into a room, or sit on a prim through a locked door.

Just WHAT IS IT that these kids NEED TO DO precisely on the adult grid with the brothel as their screenshot backdrop, Daniel?

You're awfully evasive on THAT point because you have no case. ANYTHING they wish to do that is innocent can be done in PG, it doesn't HAVE to have the adult continent as its setting. SO WHY ARE THEY THERE? And the answer is: because it's just the latest incremental step that the aggressive ageplay lobby, which you represent, is hammering and screaming for as a tactic in eroding the lines of clarity on this issue.

You're just covering up for your inherent lack of morality and appreciation of the legal mandate on this issue, and looking for ways to erode standards, fisk, literalize and dissemble. That more than anything disproves your case. For years your forums cartel on this issue kept telling us you didn't engage in sexualized play. We didn't believe you because of how aggressively, whinily, and defensively you had to tell us this every 5 minutes.

And now, fortunately, we have fresh evidence to believe you because you now demand the right to have brothels as the backdrop for your kid picnics. Extremely lame and fake argumentation. You don't. You don't need to risk that Dirk the Dick will come bouncing into view -- you can stay on PG, duh.

There is a black and white on this issue, not of my invention, which you are muddying because you represent the covert ageplay lobby, as usual, pretending to be for innocent child play merely as a tactic (and now you've utterly shown your hand on that score by demanding adult access).

No, I don't respect lying and disembling aggressive assholes who use this pretense as a cover for a sinister agenda. Not at all.

In fact, people who have moral clarity and set laws *do* rule the world, and you'll be finding that out.

Er, right, a communist dictatorship is "just like" a law forbidding child avatars to depict pornography and child rape while pretending to skip rope in front of a brothel or next to dancing dicks. Right! JUST like it! lol.

I'm not the one who invented the concept of banning simulated pornography. EU governments, including your own in Germany, did this, even more restrictedly than in the U.S. But it is certainly a norm I respect for moral reasons.

You do not, because indeed you *are* immoral and cannot concede this boundary. I'm glad we've had a chance to flush this out finally with your despicable apoligism for the child avatar on the adult grid.

Prokofy Neva

Dale, please DO go fuck yourself because you ARE an asshole, and your ex-wife and girlfriend think you are a loser.

The idea that everyone "needs" to go into the adult grid to avoid an abuse report and that it's the new "free zone" is absurd on the face of it, because it represents a higher degree of intrusive scrutiny from the Lab with age verification, the concentration of a population in one physical/geographical location which makes it much easier to police (the rationale for policing in RL red districts, too) and hangs a big cowbell ringing on every person on that grid (and it IS a grid because you must be verified in ways you don't have to be elsewhre; part of the grid, or technical grid with a special log-on --those are mechanics. In policy terms, it's like a separate grid, behind a firewall.

We will not even be physically SEEING these sims from the next sims near them. That's how much of a labour camp it will be.

To portray this sequestering as a new free hip zone is just fisking and contrarian nonsense.

Go back to fisking and dismantling the JIRA into a million bite-size troll pieces, Dale, that's picking on something your own size.

Dale Innis

Prokofy, the RL stuff is really uncalled for. And all the more puzzling in that it's completely inaccurate. :) Not that that's any of your business.

Ann Otoole

People bitched about adult players "forcing" their adult role play on others. Now adult role play is forced to Zindra.

Child avatars are and always will represent a clear liability to Linden Research Inc. and to Second Life. If Linden Research Inc. wants to avoid more trouble they will deal with this issue promptly and we will see either a separate continent for child avatars and child content or a total ban on child avatars.

There is no in between.

There is plenty of evidence in Second Life to make a junior congressperson's career by crucifying Phillip Rosedale and Mark Klingdon over the rampant simulated pedophilia in Second Life.

There is no reason whatsoever for a child representation to be present in an adult rated region. None whatsoever.

Linden research crapped on the adult industry. Guess what is about to happen next. Time is of the essence. I estimate no more than a week is available for a policy statement banning all child representations from adult areas if not from Second Life in it's entirety.

Stroker Serpentine

I absolutely agree that child avatars have no place on Zindra. Perhaps there was some sort of "probationary preview" in effect, but going forward once the shops are filled there is no reason for child avies to be there. We never have and never will allow child avies on Eros. I can see the pictures in the New York Post now..Two avatars doing the pixel polka on a sexbed demo while a child avie dressed in "Hello Kitty" pj's looks on. I visited the sims for the first time today and was dismayed at the architectural offerings of the LDPW "moles". I was expecting "Tinky Winky", "Laa Laa" or "Po" to peek out from around a corner at any moment. Linden Lab is now in the porn biz like it or not. You can bet your last poseball that Linden G-Team alts will be crawling all over every square inch once Zindra is stocked and live. Apparently, "Verified" doesn't necessarily mean "Adult". "Fuck You Hedonism" indeed.

brinda allen

I really feel the need, desire, social commitment to post here. I am age verified. {Came when I used a credit card to buy Linden land I guess}. I couldnt be trusted in the waning days of the "Hippie Revolution" because by then I was already over 30. {for those who weren't around then, "dont trust anybody over 30".
I'm a parent, a grandparent,and yes..a great grandparent. I am absolutely of the opinion that child avies are creepy. Not because I hate children. They are creepy feeling. They have as much business on a sim where sex,pornagraphy, or extreme violence is represented as I do in a Christian heaven. {there that ought to inflame some passions!...Cause if you knew my years of licentious behavior as a alcoholic drug addict you would understand why thats funny!} All the rational for personal freedoms be dammned. It is creepy, illegal, immoral, perverted and a lot more desciptive words for a child to be in a whorehouse,BDSM club,strip club,X rated theater and more real life. And dont try and tell me that as a parent I can bypass those various laws. Holocluck if you find what I'm about to say as flaming, so goddam well be it. You are pendejo...look it up. translates as 'more than stupid'. I am a fervant believer in freedom of expression. I believe that any government...even a benovolent monarchy should maintain a hands off policy.......as much as possible. There will..and must always be exceptions. In the USA I have freedom of speech and action. I may not threaten the President...I may not scream "fire" in a crowded theater. I may not sexually exploit children. As far as I'm concerned gambling is fine. Vir World banking was fine. Linden Lab is a california based business. Those activities were limited for apparently purely legal business decisions. OK , so be it. Sometimes what one person sees as clearly bad behavior isnt the question....but the appearance of bad behavior is. Ichabod and Darien both have reasonable posts here. Dont deliberately create a potential legal issue. And work on the solution before it becomes a really huge problem.
Bringing in RL isnt uncalled for. Its just another way to try and find a solution. RL situations caused a lot of finacial loss to many that had gambling operations here.

As a personal issue, pixel sex just isnt my thing, but I guess I would find a screenfull of tiny bunnies doing it hilarious. Tiny pigtailed avies??? Creepy. Thats the appearance of bad behavior.

And I find it inconceiveable that it happened in the presence of a Linden.

ichabod Antfarm

"a policy statement banning all child avatars.... from Second Life in it's entirety." Which for me and many others would be, frankly, a devastation BUT if Linden Research Inc :-) decides to take that step in order to preserve the service they offer to the many then it's one I will gladly accept. It would be a shame but the blame would not lie with Linden Lab, it would lie squarely on the coquettish shoulders of those "prominent" members of the SL kid community (such as it is) who persist in "advocating for SL children's rights" at the expense of real children.

June Trefoil

While in character the child avatar does not belong in Zindra at all.

Where are their parents?????

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