I was wondering when I was out at the new Zindra continent why there were child avatars there -- I saw two of them.
And why Marianne McCann, who had to tell us a million times how her avatars was not involved in "ageplay," which is code terminology for "child pornography performed by adults wearing child avatars in virtual worlds", is out there dancing with the phalluses which surfaced in the WA within minutes of the continent being opened to the public.
Why would she need to be there dancing with penises? (I haven't depicted them here but they were there and there are definitely witnesses -- giant prim penises in the welcome area). Why, for that matter, did Blondin Linden, the guy in the prim penis, and Marianne need to be whooping it up TOGETHER?
Well, come to find out, Blondin Linden said exactly in these words, to a number of people raising an eyebrow: [2009/06/15 20:05] Blondin Linden: No WOrries Chand. CHild avs are allowed on Zndra
If you are raising an eyebrow, too, come look more closely at the legal loophole and double-talk by which the Lindens, who aren't REALLY interested in enforcing this rule, get around this seeming contradiction.
The transcript from their press conference some months ago is here, I attended and heard this very discussion:
"Q: Since the new system verifies accounts as adults, are child avatars in adult areas still subject to the same rules as before, now that the user can be verified as an adult? Can child avatars visit adult regions?"
A: (Ken Linden): Let me very briefly review what the policies are now. You are allowed to have a child avatar, a miniaturized avatar. You are not allowed to engage in sexual or sexualized activities or simulations with a child avatar. That policy will remain the same after this initiative."
Do you see there a frank statement, "Yes, you will be allowed to go on the adult grid in your child avatar just as long as you don't engage in sexualized activities or simulations with a child avatar".
No. But you don't see the statement, "No, you will not be allowed to go on the adult grid in your child avatar and engage in sexualized or non-sexualized activities for that matter."
So exploiting this lack of clarity -- this loophole -- a bunch of avatars have rushed to the adult grid triumphantly, so they can flaunt the fact that the Lindens are carving out a special space for them, where they get to keep inflicting their creepingness on everyone in a context where indeed there is open and extreme sex and violence. Yes, child avatars *are* creepy and in this context of an adult grid with BDSM queens with chained slaves and giant dicks everywhere they are especially creepy. As more and more screenshots of this get out, perhaps the Lindens will be moved to find their consciences again.
If ever there was a final slipping of the mask for this lobby, where we could see what they are up to, it's now, when their constant protestations over the years that they are strictly PG and never sexual are given the lie. Because their flocking to show off in the adult grid with the blessing of their winking Linden enabler and conniver means that they are merely interested in pushing the limits and eroding the social and legal injunctions, not genuinely engaged in innocent RP.
You can also see on display here all the tricks in the book, using arguments I've also summarized in my excellent exegesis of this lobby here:
o make questions about generic policies seem as if they single out individual people and act injured and personally hurt and QQ heavily about being personally attacked because generic policy questions are asked -- usually gets most people in the conversation so uncomfortable and fearful of seeming politically correct that they cave right there. I don't. I don't fear creepy child avs who QQ when I tell them they are creepy.
o seek exceptionalism on as many counts as possible so that there is distraction from the generic questions -- "oh, let them have fun and stay up late and go on the adult grid this one time"; "oh, there isn't any content there yet; oh they are just exploring"
o try to draw a moral equivalence and "hyprokisy" gotcha by saying that changing your gender is equivalent to putting on a child avatar and dancing with penises and walking among brothels on the adult grid
o saying that anything is allowed if adults are wearing the child avatars (that's not Linden policy for any part of the grid)
o claiming that walking near a brothel isn't going inside one, so that's ok, it's not sexual then
o simply dodging the glaring question of why child avatars need to go to the adult grid in the first place
o completely ducking the question of why their dancing around with penises isn't of great concern and contradictory to their claim that their behavior isn't sexualized
o refusal to admit that the adult grid is indeed for adult activity, and making it seem like there is some non-sexualized non-adult space still available there as a neutral context for where children can dance
o constant, repeated, angry, hurt, and indignant outrage, of the sort we always see from extremists and identity politicans, making it seem like they are misunderstood, their rights are violated, etc. -- and make you out to be some horrible discriminatory beast merely because you don't think child avatars on the sex continent is a good fit.
o repeatedly turning every legitimate question back on the interlocutor and accusing him of being "black and white" or "unfair" or "not understanding" or "intolerant". But...nobody can really persuasively explain why this is being tolerated!
In short, all the kind of devious and conniving arguments we saw in these disputes in the past, and which are all typical of the weapons this very organized, persistent, and sinister pro-ageplay movement is all about. If it was hard to see this before, when they could really hide behind a PG sim, or PG activity on a Mature sim, now, with their insistence on doing on to the adult grid, we will see their game exposed for what it is. Those who don't go on the adult grid will have credibility with their cover story; those who do, will not. By their fruits ye shall know them.
For those who claimed strenuously, saying they are terribly insulted at the thought that you thought anything nasty about them, that they aren't ageplayers, they now have to answer why on earth they need to dance among the penises in Zindra. It's amazing that the Lindens can countenance this -- but also indicative of their sleazy and casual immorality on just about everything these days -- see the MOTD.
I'm not afraid of people who get all hurt and QQ about you insulting them for being creepy. Child avatars ARE creepy. I will go on defending my right and your right to say that. They are especially creepy -- criminal, even -- in these sexualized contexts. So why are they demanding to go there?!
"You're accusing every child avatar of being sexual," says one whiner here. Yes I am. On the adult grid, they are. Their reason for being there is completely specious and it is completely unacceptable.
[23:17] Prokofy Neva: So what's the deal on why the Lindens are allowing child avatars in the adult grid?!
[23:18] Angela Talamasca: i was wondering the same thing! lol o.O
[23:18] Abby Callisto: they are?
[23:18] TodALeRDALE Stine: may be cos they are real adults
[23:18] Kimmera Madison: child avatars? or kids from the teen grid?
[23:19] Lady Sakai: if they have a verified account they can slip through
[23:19] Angela Talamasca: child avatars
[23:19] Argos Hawks: if they aren't doing anything wrong, leave 'em alone
[23:19] Abby Callisto: Prok Im a child av and have been age verified....but I dont plan on going to that continent. I went there today on my adult av tho
[23:20] Lady Sakai: thats cos your decent Abby ... not all are ... sadly :(
[23:20] Angela Talamasca: am pretty sure no one did/said anything. still think its a valid question.
[23:20] Abby Callisto: Prok where did you see they were allowing kid av's?
[23:21] Angela Talamasca: when i had an adultish rpg, i did not allow child avies. some threw tantrums about it, too. *shrugs*
[23:21] Angela Talamasca: they were at the grand opening, dancing w/blondin. lol
[23:21] Prokofy Neva: no, I'd like to hear why child avatars even if they are adults are allowed on the adult grid, when the dividing line one the adult-as-child concept has always been "you can have a child avatar if you do not engage in sexualized behaviour". So...why would they be dancing around on the adult grid just now among the phalluses in the WA?
[23:21] Angela Talamasca: or rather, i saw one.
[23:21] Abby Callisto: well, theres good and bad in all forms. Not just kid av's
[23:22] Prokofy Neva: on the adult grid, and people are citing that Blondin said that child avatars will be allowed on the adult grid. I guess that gives the lie to the mantra they've been feeding us all along that these are just G-rated RPs
[23:22] Lady Sakai: to provoke maybe, Prok ?
[23:22] Argos Hawks: as long as they aren't participating in sexual behavior, they can go to any mainland sim they want
[23:22] Abby Callisto: perhaps becuase they are curious about the new grid like everyone else...and right now there is NO adult content there.
[23:22] Prokofy Neva: But wait a second, the adult grid IS for particpiating in sexual behavior. If you go on there, you WILL be doing that, and constantly exposed to sexualized scenes. So why ahve these creepy child avatars in that setting?
[23:22] Argos Hawks: and they could just be going there to be violent.
[23:22] Prokofy Neva: No, ABby, that's not the issue, they are implying that Blondin Linden has cleared child avatars permanently for this grid
[23:23] Abby Callisto: creepy child av's?
[23:23] Angela Talamasca: ah, okay, so if they're watching sexualized behavior, that's okay? lol *shakes head*
[23:23] Argos Hawks: the adult continent is for more than just sex
[23:23] Prokofy Neva: Why do people who have fed us this bull all along that they are strictly G-rated and never engage in adult behaviour now flaunt the fact that they are being let on the adult grid, and getting their dysfunctions validated yet again in SL? Why?
[23:24] Prokofy Neva: and why are the Lindens, who finally bit the bullet on this and said "no ageplay, period, we don't care if you are an adult in RL, it's not on" countenacing this?
[23:24] Prokofy Neva: that's all, I'd like to hear how the Lindens are squaring this circle
[23:24] Abby Callisto: Prok, your accusing every child av of being sexual and thats wrong.
[23:25] Prokofy Neva: No, I'm accusing child avatars who go on the adult grid as being sexual, and their Haskelling and pretending they aren't then, is given the lie by them going on the adult grid
[23:25] Elanthius Flagstaff: Well, I heard official ruling was that children were not allowed in Zindra
[23:25] Prokofy Neva: what happened to their claim that they are not sexual, and what happened to their defense against this accusatoin, which they meet every time by saying "but we don't do ageplay"? If that's the case, why the rush to the adult grid?
[23:25] Argos Hawks: did you actually see that child avatar doing anything sexual, or are you just throwing a fit?
[23:26] Angela Talamasca: doesn't matter. child avies have no business in the adult grid.
[23:26] Prokofy Neva: 1) child avatars dancing among penis avatars -- call it what you will 2) child avatars even being on the adult grid period -- that IS sexual. That is what the adult grid IS. That's the whole point of this complicated exercise.
[23:26] Prokofy Neva: They don't. And I thought we had heard from the Lindens that they would not be allowed.
[23:26] Argos Hawks: we're all on the adult grid
[23:26] Abby Callisto: Prok, there isnt even any content there yet. Your making an accusation thats not true and you have no way of knowing if it is or not. The grid JUST opened today for people to view it. Jeeez. Stop accusing already.
[23:27] Prokofy Neva: Abby, I was just there and witnessed this.
[23:27] Prokofy Neva: Further more, there is indeed plenty of people dancing around with giant penises and al lthe rest, I was just there, duh
[23:27] Xandi Mars: where is the adult grid
[23:27] Angela Talamasca: i saw it too, including the dancing penis. lol
[23:27] Xandi Mars: anyone have a land mark?
[23:27] Abby Callisto: SO WHAT? That doesnt mean they are engaging in sexual activity. They are exploring the new grid just like YOIU obviously did
[23:28] Prokofy Neva: And yet I will indeed ask this questoin and not be satisfied with some lame excuse like "oh, let the kids stay up after their bedtime this one time and go on the continent until the content is there"
[23:28] Prokofy Neva: either you allow them -- or you don't
[23:28] Abby Callisto: And I really take offense to being called creepy.
[23:28] Prokofy Neva: You are creepy Abby, if you go on a achild into a sexualized adult grid? hello?
[23:28] Prokofy Neva: and I don't care if you tell us all "Oh, noes, I won't be going on that av:
[23:28] Prokofy Neva: becaues othes ARE going on it, and you are JUSTIFYING it
[23:28] Prokofy Neva: in the press conference I went to, the Lindens said ver yclearly: no child avatars
[23:28] Prokofy Neva: so who overthrow Blondin?1
[23:28] Xandi Mars: well she did not take her child avie..there.she went as her adult avie so im sure she respects and understands the.. reasoning
[23:29] Prokofy Neva: He was there dancing with the penises and the kids TOO
[23:29] Abby Callisto: Prok, lol....Im justifying that they are EXPLORING the new continent. Your ACCUSING them od engaging i sexual behaviour...HUGE Ass difference
[23:29] Angela Talamasca: there u go xandi. :-)
[23:29] Elanthius Flagstaff: Sorry I may have missed it in the Wall of Text, but why do you say that LL are allowing kids onto Zindra anyway?
[23:29] Prokofy Neva: Xandi, she is there justifying it
[23:29] Prokofy Neva: yes elanthius, and there isn't any "wall," just one line, stop it
[23:29] Prokofy Neva: Abby, the adult grid is a grid for sexual behaviour DUH
[23:29] Argos Hawks: Prok wants them to ban people from the continent based on height aparently
[23:29] Xandi Mars: ty Angela..
[23:29] Prokofy Neva: the fact that it just opened jdoesn't mean squat when al lthe penises showed up within 30 minutes
[23:29] Elanthius Flagstaff: OK fine whatever re WoT, but why do you say they are "allowing" it rather than just not noticing?
[23:29] Angela Talamasca: well, there was a child avie there, along with blondin linden, and a dancing penis... erm, i mean, my bro. lol
[23:29] Abby Callisto: Do you see content being sold there yet?
[23:29] Prokofy Neva: No, based on being child avatars
[23:30] Prokofy Neva: who are flaunting the limits because they are once again trying to create a space in which the moral injunctions are eroded -- that's always this lobby's goal
[23:30] Prokofy Neva: I'd like to here THE LINDENS explain whey they CHANGED what they were saing on this
[23:30] Lady Sakai: your brother is a penis ? ... how did your parents react to that ? ;)
[23:31] Prokofy Neva: What would content being sold have to do with the fact that it is the adult grid, Abby, you are just dancing around this
[23:31] Abby Callisto: Prok, I agree whole heartily that child av's have no business on the adult grid....NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.........But I dont think them being there today warrants the accusations your tossing out.
[23:31] Abby Callisto: dancing my ass. I dont have to dance around anything. Your tossing out false accusations...period.
[23:31] Angela Talamasca: lol, yeah, he donned his penis avie at the new continent.
[23:32] Lady Sakai: soo your mom dont know about it yet then ? ;)
[23:32] Xandi Mars: the builder liked glow alot lol
[23:33] Angela Talamasca: as for our parents? they were, no doubt, a tad disappointed. lolol
[23:34] Angela Talamasca: but dad was real proud! hahaha
[23:34] Prokofy Neva: Here's the press conference transcript: http://tr.im/kffn
[23:34] Lady Sakai: lol
[23:34] Prokofy Neva: Here is the transcript:
[23:34] Prokofy Neva: Q: Since the new system verifies accounts as adults, are child avatars in adult areas still subject to the same rules as before, now that the user can be verified as an adult? Can child avatars visit adult regions?
[23:34] Prokofy Neva: A: (Ken): Let me very briefly review what the policies are now. You are allowed to have a child avatar, a miniaturized avatar. You are not allowed to engage in sexual or sexualized activities or simulations with a child avatar. That policy will remain the same after this initiative.
[23:34] Lady Sakai: why dont that supprise me :)
[23:34] Abby Callisto: and as far as saying Im creepy for being a child av...you may want to look in the freaking mirror and ask yourself wtf gender you are......I cuold easily say thats creepy but I dont. I respect what and who you choose to be. So before you start that shit ...know wtf your saying Prok.
[23:34] Elanthius Flagstaff: rtf file? WTF!
[23:35] Prokofy Neva: Abby, stop it with the straw men and the fake accusations yourself. I haven't "made accusations". I've asked about PRINCIPLES and POLICIES and why they are ALREADY being violated
[23:35] Elanthius Flagstaff: Come on Abby, you've got to admit child avatars are a little bit creepy.
[23:35] Abby Callisto: maybe for your shallow mind El
[23:35] Xandi Mars: she went as an adult
[23:35] Prokofy Neva: Abby, there you go again. I said child avatars are creepy on the adult grid, when we were told they wre forbidden by Ken Linden.
[23:35] Elanthius Flagstaff: ::shrugs:: I think everyone finds them a little offputting. Nothing wrong with offputting. But call a spade a spade.
[23:35] Xandi Mars: but child avies are an expression no ..different from tiny bunnies
[23:35] Argos Hawks: prok, the bit you just quoted said nothing about child avs on adult regions
[23:35] Xandi Mars: or might i say furries?
[23:36] Prokofy Neva: Here's what I wrote, Abby, before you start in whith the hysteria again: [23:28] Prokofy Neva: You are creepy Abby, if you go on a achild into a sexualized adult grid? hello?
[23:36] Prokofy Neva: yes it does
[23:36] Prokofy Neva: read it
[23:36] Prokofy Neva: Can child avatars visit adult regions?
[23:36] Prokofy Neva: You are not allowed to engage in sexual or sexualized activities or simulations with a child avatar. That policy will remain the same after this initiative.
[23:36] Argos Hawks: that says nothing about keeping the child avs out of those sims
[23:36] Prokofy Neva: All Ken Linden has said is this: You are allowed to have a child avatar, a miniaturized avatar.
[23:36] Xandi Mars: well you know this is based of the web.. sites
[23:37] Prokofy Neva: he hasn't said "You are allowed to visit the adult regoin on your child avatar and pretend that you aren't engaging in sexualized behaviour just to test the limits"
[23:37] Abby Callisto: Prokofy Neva: Why do people who have fed us this bull all along that they are strictly G-rated and never engage in adult behaviour now flaunt the fact that they are being let on the adult grid, and getting their dysfunctions validated yet again in SL? Why?
[23:37] Prokofy Neva: It says nothing about letting those child avatars into the sims
[23:37] Argos Hawks: he didn't say they weren't allowed to visit either
[23:37] Prokofy Neva: Why indeed Abby?
[23:37] Abby Callisto: [23:22] Prokofy Neva: But wait a second, the adult grid IS for particpiating in sexual behavior. If you go on there, you WILL be doing that, and constantly exposed to sexualized scenes. So why ahve these creepy child avatars in that setting?
[23:38] Prokofy Neva: If you went on and on and on all these years claiming that your child avatar is just for fun and innocent RP, why the hell do you need to go to the friggin' adult grid now? hello?
[23:38] Prokofy Neva: Absolutely, and let me state again: If you go on there, you WILL be doing that, and constantly exposed to sexualized scenes. So why ahve these creepy child avatars in that setting?
[23:38] Argos Hawks: we're all on the adult grid
[23:38] Abby Callisto: why the hell are you so up in the air about them VEIWING he new continent today?
[23:38] Prokofy Neva: Flaunting the rules and trying to carve out a space to erode standards, as per usual, which we are long accustomed to from this movement. And what will you be doing there, pray tell? Knitting on a 16 m2 with ban lines?
[23:38] Argos Hawks: the adult continent is not only about sex
[23:39] Prokofy Neva: Abby, you are irrelevant and beside the point again
[23:39] Isla Dubrovna: I haven't seen the new continent yet but can't believe that just setting foot on it is a sexual activity
[23:39] Prokofy Neva: Yes it is, Argos, that's what it's for. To pretend it's about bowling is absurd, and you know it
[23:39] Abby Callisto: AGAIN...I DONT AGREE with child AV"S ON THAT GRID....BUT...THERES NO CONTENT THERE YET! Your preaching about something thats non existant yet and accusing child avs' of engaging in sexual activity witjhout cause
[23:39] Prokofy Neva: Isla, have you ever been to a welcome area in SL? This is going to be like the typical WA, only squared
[23:39] Prokofy Neva: Abby, the penises dancing in the WA looked like adult content to me
[23:40] Argos Hawks: it's about whatever people want it to be about. advertised sex has to go to the adult continent, but not all of the adult continent will be about sex
[23:40] Prokofy Neva: but um, maybe they are children's lollipops, I realize people aren't always skillful in Photoshop
[23:40] Abby Callisto: nah prok, your irrelevant. You go on and on and on and are rude to people who say anything and ask a question like your a damn walking wiki and know all the answers.
[23:40] Prokofy Neva: What's your purpoes in eroding these distinctoins, Argos?Desensitizing people to the immorality of ageplay?
[23:40] Isla Dubrovna: well yeah...I would guess there are child avs in welcome areas generally as well as the usual porngrief
[23:40] Prokofy Neva: Mission accomplished there
[23:40] Xandi Mars: to quote rodney king "can't we all just get along"
[23:40] Abby Callisto: sighs
[23:40] Abby Callisto: im out of this lunacy
[23:41] Prokofy Neva: Er, why do I need to get along with creepy child avatars going to the sexualized adult grid to push the limits, obnoxiously flaunt them, troll about them, and create more havoc from this movement, which is their purpose? why do we need to go along with that?
[23:41] Argos Hawks: there will be lots of reasons for people to go to those 200 or so sims. claiming that people are engaging in sexual activities because they show up on a continent is stupid
[23:41] Prokofy Neva: What will they be doing, Argos, and where and how will the lines be drawn between "sexual and not sexual" on this ADULT grid created FOR THAT PURPOSE
[23:42] Argos Hawks: no it was not created for 1 specific purpose
[23:42] Prokofy Neva: I should think most people really will NOT want the inhibiting and disturbing influence of child avatars flaunting that they are NOT participating in sex running around and taunting everyone
[23:42] Prokofy Neva: it really is the worst kind of splitting of hairs
[23:42] Abby Callisto: Prok, Im neither disturbing or inhibiting.
[23:42] Prokofy Neva: Yes it was Argos, you are hallucinating and trying to plead you special edge case. Why do yo uneed to do that?
[23:42] Xandi Mars: im pretty sure when it opens..they wont be allowed
[23:43] Argos Hawks: if you've got a sex business on mainland, you've got to move there. if you've got a graphic violence business on mainland, you've got to move there. If you just want to be on mainland where only people with verified accounts can go, you've got to move there
[23:43] Prokofy Neva: Why do child avatars, who fed us this line of crap for all this time that they are innocent, NEED to go to the adult grid? to look for the .0000017 percent non-adult content there and flaunt that they are dancing among the penises and getting away with it?!
[23:43] Prokofy Neva: what the hell?
[23:43] Angela Talamasca: huh, interestingly, i was just informed that Blondin stated in open chat, child avies are allowed on the adult grid.
[23:43] Prokofy Neva: Argos, that's juts it, if you have a sex business, you have to move there
[23:44] Prokofy Neva: so....why would a child avatar want to move to this place with sex businesses lol?
[23:44] Xandi Mars: prof calm down its not open.. there will be some that test any limits..in sl ..or that matter the web
[23:44] Abby Callisto: prok, why do you change from female to male on a whim? Thats disturbing also but you dont hear me complain about it.
[23:44] Argos Hawks: i'm not trying to plead my special edge case, i'm just calling you out for saying that the entire continent and everyone that goes there is only about 1 thing
[23:44] Prokofy Neva: Yes Angela, this is what Marianne is pasting triumphantly everywhere, that's why I asked here
[23:44] Prokofy Neva: I see that Blondin, being heavily lobbied by the creeps, is now thrown, and that Ken Linden wlil be able to find a legal loophole even in his stated remarks
[23:44] Xandi Mars: i am doubtful ill even go to it..unless i have a special need lol
[23:44] Daniel Regenbogen: could be worse than kids seeing dancing penises. they could see Prokofy Neva and would get damage for the rest of their lifes from this attacking, non-respectulf, non-accepting lifeform
[23:44] Prokofy Neva: because he didn't specify that the ycannot go, so that will be interpreted by those pushing the line that the yCAN
[23:45] Prokofy Neva: so you agree Daniel that child avatars dancing among penises is ok? let's get that on the record
[23:45] Angela Talamasca: ah, okay
[23:45] Prokofy Neva: because up until now, you've said ohnoes thees are strictely kid stuff
[23:45] Daniel Regenbogen: as a kid i was around dancing penises each summer... was called nude family beach
[23:46] Lady Sakai: you poor poor thing, Daniel
[23:46] Prokofy Neva: Abby, there isn't any law in RL or in SL about changing your gender. There is about depicting child rape even if you are an adult wearing a child skin. More's the pity for you.
[23:46] Xandi Mars: where did rape come in?
[23:46] Abby Callisto: where did you see child rape!???!?!?!
[23:46] Argos Hawks: but there's no law about kids going to a city where people sometimes have sex
[23:46] Abby Callisto: Your tossing accusations falsely AGAIN as USUAL
[23:46] Xandi Mars: there are kinda sorta rules in some states about some of the .sex same gender have ..
[23:46] Prokofy Neva: We're all told strictly never ever ever to suspect all these freaky child avatars of anything sexual, and now they are stampeding to the adult grid. Gives the lie to their whole spiel.
[23:47] Daniel Regenbogen: yeah funny, hehe, suddenly it's rape instead of a kid walking lets say Hamburg Sankt Pauli with all the brothels there (which is totally allowed)
[23:47] Prokofy Neva: By its very nature, sex with a child *is* rape. Child pornography is rape. This is a depiction of rape. It's wrong. Full stop.
[23:47] Abby Callisto: Prok, Im not freaky....you dont like how I play my SL...fine...but dont start the name shit.
[23:47] Prokofy Neva: What will the child avatars be doing on the adult grid, Daniel?
[23:47] Daniel Regenbogen: prok, a child walking a street where a brothel is lokated is NOT rape
[23:47] Prokofy Neva: could you describe how they plan to pick their way among the chained BDSM queens and dancing phalluses?
[23:48] Prokofy Neva: Why are we creating these taunting edge cases, Daniel? what is the felt need to do that?
[23:48] Angela Talamasca: [2009/06/15 20:04] Chandra Magic: i THOUGHT THERE WA SSOME SORT OF RULES ON SUCH THINGS CAND CHILD AVS? O.O;
[2009/06/15 20:05] Blondin Linden: No WOrries Chand. CHild avs are allowed on Zndra
[23:48] Argos Hawks: a child walking down a city street isn't rape, even if it's amsterdam
[23:48] Prokofy Neva: We were told al lthis time that child avatars were strictly PG and unrelated to adult activity, and now they are flocking there
[23:48] Abby Callisto: Prok, you dont get it.....your accusing child av's...ALL CHIHLD AV"S as being kiddy porn
[23:48] Prokofy Neva: On an adult grid, they are, yes
[23:48] Abby Callisto: bullshit. If they arent in the act how can you say that?
[23:48] Prokofy Neva: this ridiculous Fisking that Blondin and the ageplay lobby have started doesn't change that
[23:48] Daniel Regenbogen: well abby thats exactly Prok. black and white. the only point of view being correct being hers
[23:49] Belinda Linden: This group is for inworld announcements by the concierge team, to you the concierge clients. There also tends to be occasional chat between the concierge level residents, which is fine. However, it is not a support channel (and therefore we do not routinely monitor it) or a place for advertising. Please keep noise on this channel to a minimum.
[23:49] Prokofy Neva: Abby, why would someone who is playing a non-sexualized child need to go walk down the street next to a brothel?
[23:49] Abby Callisto: great belinda...why dont ya'll kick Prok out since that freak seems to think she/he is the only one who is right in ALL things
[23:49] Argos Hawks: as long as they don't go in, what's the problem
[23:49] Angela Talamasca: are you a bot, belinda?
[23:49] Belinda Linden: The Concierge Information Group chat is a place provided by the Concierge Team to allow
occasional chat between concierge level residents. It is not a forum for debate and abuse will
not be tolerated. If problems persist then this chat will be temporarily disabled.
[23:49] Angela Talamasca: sorry, couldn't help myself. seems like some sort of canned response. just sayin.
[23:50] Belinda Linden: it is canned for a reason, to ensure we give you a studied response
[23:50] Prokofy Neva: I love it how child avatars dancing among penises on the adult grid isn't abuse, but raising a legitimate question about why this is being tolerated by Linden despite their anti-ageplay policy *is* abuse.
[23:50] Angela Talamasca: i was just teasing, belinda. not to worry. lol
[23:51] Prokofy Neva: why would child avatars playing strictly PG need to be walking by a brothel and not going in? what would be the context in which that would be ok, and n ot sexualized?
[23:51] Belinda Linden: This discussion needs to be taken out of CiG chat and to the support systems.
[23:51] Shannara Snowdrop: dang Prokofy, you carry it too far
[23:51] Prokofy Neva: So Belinda cdan you confirm that child avatars will be allowed on Zindra?
[23:52] Belinda Linden: this group is not for discussion of these issues. Please take your questions to support, the forums or the blog.
So, like MOTD, like favouritism, like the JIRA -- shut everybody up, and find something more censorship-worthy about a customer asking why it's ok to have Second Life show children dancing with penises in an XXX zone than the scene itself. And this is so typical of the double standards I've seen before from this gang -- extreme sex and objectionable immorality are allowed and indeed celebrated as art and freedom of expression, but disagreement with this immorality, or disagreement even with how software bugs are worked on or eyeball space is given away to favourites must be shut down and censored.
It truly boggles the mind that this company can allow people to flaunt their child avatars and their penis avatars with impunity, and yet shut up the mouth of someone asking them why only their friends get an ad on the log-in screen, or why their opensource copyleftist staff can't report a bug that destroys private property. Of course if you have studied totalitarian regimes, you know that the one way they break down the human spirit and civil society is by encouraging and exploiting extreme sex and violent sex and appearing to be "tolerant" even as they burn books or jail authors. Enabling a controlled population to have at least *this* is what gives them the illusion they are free.
To say Marianne is an ageplayer is to be engaged in libel. I'm sorry you have this attitude about not letting the general public check out the new continent, its unique terrain and SLDPW builds. To you it's like its very existence represents being caught naked. Well I'm sure someone can delve into why for a price. I think you just don't like kids in general or the image of kids. I think you blame people like Marianne for Zindra's existence and not the insensitivity of the explicit community (can't call them mature OR adult personally) with regard to the multicultural diversity of the Internet and Second Life. OR face the fact that the Lindens could have continued working on improving existing lands and transportation projects instead of stopping to make Zindra since people COULDNT follow the terms and keep their smut indoors, from the woman selling attachments in open air near one of my lands now to the fool who last year had a glass gallery right on the border of PG land filled with photos of sex acts. Maybe if you turned your bitterness to the people who really caused this to happen instead of people who don't give a hang what you'll be doing once Zindra is settled, dharma might be on your side a little more.
Posted by: Holocluck Henly | June 16, 2009 at 03:48 AM
no the adult grid is for adults, its for sex
if you're fingering your succulent asshole and tugging on your schlong whilst child roleplayers and talking about their daddy which one is going to get banned? I'd put my bets on the adult.
Children roleplayers are allowed in the adult grid, allowed to walk, talk, play, explore, watch just not intercourse eh?
Disgusting
Posted by: Mosher | June 16, 2009 at 03:58 AM
This isn't about Marianne. I have no idea why she was there and it does make her look bad. Perhaps she has a good reason, I dunno. What this is really about is Linden Labs being inconsistent in enforcing their policies. C'mon Blondin, didn't you give a thought to what was happening around you? You (LL) just shot another hole in your foot.
Posted by: Ravishal Bentham | June 16, 2009 at 05:28 AM
Last time I walked through lets say Hamburgs amusement district, streets weren't closed to RL kids. Sure, they weren't allowed to step into the bars, brothels, whatever - but they weren't banned from public places.
This is just typical Prok, black and white, and what she doesn't know she doesn't understand she doesn't respect.
I think it's even more "funny" right now when this new continent was just opened and people invited to have a look.
Thankfully people like that do not rule the world - neither the real one nor this artificial one (they are trying, though, and everything Prok "uncovers" as communist dictatorship will look like a happy playground compared to a world ruled by substitute gods and wannabe-moralists).
Posted by: Daniel Regenbogen | June 16, 2009 at 06:23 AM
if a Euro user is snapped with a kid avi next to them and theyre doing something sexual its prison for them.
kid porn is kid porn regardless of whether its a story, typed text, photos, cartoons.
I don't know how it is in America but they're definitely risking a lot of their users asses by allowing 'children' to 'play' near penis on thier new land
Posted by: Mosher | June 16, 2009 at 06:48 AM
Disgusting from the Lindens, and from Marianne. I for one did believe she was one of the few child avatars who weren't there just for child porn. Bah.
Posted by: Eirik | June 16, 2009 at 07:05 AM
I was there in Mosh last night when Blondin Linden made that statement. Marianne McCann "volunteered" that Chandra should read the Second Life wiki article concerning child avatars, suggesting that it might be "helpful". So, I checked it out myself and this caught my eye:
Creating areas for the purpose of sexual ageplay is not allowed and is ARable. This includes having items with sexual content (sexual poseballs or equipment) in proximity to items traditionally associated with children (swingsets, etc.)
Seems very clear. Now, I would suggest that enormous phalluses would constitute "sexual content" and, further, that "items traditionally associated with children" might include actual "children" themselves in the form of child avatars.
So, if you make a place where child avatars (and their trappings) are found in proximity to sexual content then, by the Linden standard, you are "creating areas for the purpose of sexual ageplay." Seems to me that it's the Lindens who need to be ARed on this one.
Posted by: ichabod Antfarm | June 16, 2009 at 07:19 AM
I'm the first to agree that child avatars are creepy. However, at the moment, Zindra is just a lot of empty land with some so-so quality mole builds on it. I think that it's not unreasonable for child AVs to go by and take a look before the place turns into Pornsylvania.
I have to admit, I went and took a look because it was new land, not becuase I'm interested in walking on the wild side of things. I'm one of those who might never go back after the land is populated, but new continents beckon to the curious.
Posted by: Kailind Tigerpaw | June 16, 2009 at 07:57 AM
Wow how many of you ARE age verified anyway? Okay, how many of you are from a repressed religious upbringing? Ah. Okay it had to be at least one of those...
So you're saying the preview period of the new continent counts as having been settled and occupied? Or maybe you are using a special viewer from the rest of us.
And why do you keep using the term "age player" when that has a specific definition which does not apply to any of the kids depicted in your tirades or images? Are you ARing them and giving the Lindens more bullshit to waste time on instead of letting them improve the grid? That in itself might be ARable. You could be SL's greatest enemy at that.
And what's with the stupid sex talk? Was that supposed to shock anybody? Not where I come from. It's got all the impact of calling someone a doodie-head.
Posted by: Holocluck Henly | June 16, 2009 at 08:09 AM
Kailind,
It's not unreasonable for residents to want to go take a look and it's not unreasonable to expect child avatars to either put on an adult appearance or switch to an adult alt before going off to explore a XXX rated area of Second Life. Why the fuck do these precious ones need to go there in child form? It's provocative, it's self-absorbed, and, once again, it puts all child avatars under suspicion. Thanks a lot, Marianne, you have done so much for the Second Life children community!
Posted by: ichabod Antfarm | June 16, 2009 at 08:18 AM
My own hope is that most of the grid will ultimately be Adult land (Zindra, other Adult mainland continents if any, and Adult estates); I expect that most people who are adults will want to be treated as adults, not as minors. (Talking about personal / recreational / creative regions here; corporate and educational regions may be mostly PG, I don't know.)
If I were starting out in SL now, I would want to live on the Adult grid, just to avoid vague ARs based on some prudish neighbor thinking some artwork in my park was "too photorealistic" or something.
So to my mind Zindra and other Adult lands aren't just for sex, they're for anyone who wants to be governed only by the ToS and not by the rather vague and draconian Adult definitions as well. I think lots of people will have their houses and galleries and hangouts on adult land, even if nothing sexual is happening there 99% of the time.
If that's the way it works out, then banning child AVs from Adult continents or Adult land would be inappropriate, since much of what happens on Adult land wouldn't be sexual or otherwise kid-unfriendly. So I think it's good that the Lindens are taking the approach that they are, at least until we see how things work out.
(I hope this doesn't annoy you too much or make you feel stalked, Profoky. :) I just wanted to outline an alternative view on the subject.)
Posted by: Dale Innis | June 16, 2009 at 10:09 AM
I'm shocked that anybody was able to dance there. Heavy sim load due to the curious.
Blondin's actions and his response when compared to Ken's statement of the policy has me raising both eyebrows. Caught with him pants down in more ways than one, although I don't think Marianne's actions were intended as sexual ageplay.
I've said before that I'm concerned that LL's inconsistency in enforcement of rules and inadequate training of its staff will lead to issues. This appears to be an artifact of this problem very early on what will certainly be an interesting history of Zindra. (Just be sure to wear rubber gloves when reading that book, okay?)
Time for those six magic words: NO GOOD WILL COME FROM THIS.
-ls/cm
Posted by: Crap Mariner | June 16, 2009 at 11:41 AM
There are plenty of places where 'kids can be kids' in SL. Zindra isn't one of them.
Posted by: Darien Caldwell | June 16, 2009 at 11:53 AM
And here we were thinking that LL was actually worried about their image.
Once the prosecutors in the EU and in America get ahold of this, LL will be nailed to the wall. And even more so when Nancy Grace starts running with it on shout TV.
Child AVs on a grid created specifically for sexualized activity is wrong. Its wrong whether there is content there or not.
And NO, wanting to be a Child AV is not the same mindset as wanting to be a TINY bunny.
Posted by: melponeme_k | June 16, 2009 at 02:11 PM
Thanks to those who understand that Zindra isn't yet open for business.
We all agree that Zindra serves a purpose and anyone not using the land with intent for some sort of Adult content or activity would be a slap in the face of all this work.
For now, this is preview time, where everyone can see the terrain and builds, and future inhabitants can scout for their location.
That's all Zindra is and nothing further. No one here has a claim to it before then.
All of SL celebrates a significant addition to the map. Pity those who cry for diversity and lack tolerance.
The adults who are portraying kids won't be in evidence once the settling begins. Question the ones who do when the time comes, but that time has not arrived.
Posted by: Holocluck Henly | June 16, 2009 at 03:51 PM
I don't get this attitude of "Lets wait until it becomes a huge issue before talking about it." Makes people sound like they work for LL.
Pre-planning, and solving issues *before* they become problems is always key in life, business, and anywhere really.
This *is* the time to be discussing it, not waiting until someone gets banned over it.
Posted by: Darien Caldwell | June 16, 2009 at 04:06 PM
Holocluck, your constant posturing and hectoring on the forums has given you the illusion that you "run things" and can "thank everyone" for their understanding like the Lindens appointed you managing.
Bullshit. You speak for no one, neither resident or Linden.
It doesn't MATTER if Zindra isn't "open for business". It was sure open for business for Dirk Talamasca to come and dance in a big prim dick avatar (turns out it was him. Sigh.)
So spare me the idiocy of claiming that dancing around as a kid on land where it isn't filled with content yet is an alibi when the dicks were the first to arrive -- duh -- as they do at all WAs, and as they are ENCOURAGED to do by the new dispensation.
To keep harping on this tekkie literalism that it is just open for scouting now is ridiculous when the Lindens themselves have now repeatedly, on the record, formally, within their lawyers' loophole, said that child avatars WILL BE ALLOWED on the adult continent PERIOD -- not just during the open-house pre-content-filling period.
So stop it with the know-it-all hectoring bullshit and back off.
Cease immediately to imagine that you represent the "Tolerance and Diversity Commitee" of SL and that THIS represents an issue of tolerance and diversity. It doesn't. It represents an issue of CRIME and IMMORALITY which, if allowed to proceed unchecked, removes our wonderful platform of, um, tolerance and diversity completely, and/or gets it dumbed and nerfed significantly to meet the needs of various powerful RL constituencies -- of the sort some say already mandated this adult move in the first place (I think they overstate the case; they sure won't overstate the case once Fox News gets the screens from the dancing kiddies and dancing dicks. Ugh.)
Your notion that the "adults portraying kids won't be in evidence" is WRONG. You are a stubbornly resisting the facts as have been presented here repeatedly. People like Daniel and Marianne, and even Abby represent a persistent, and aggressive LOBBY. They don't stop when it is appropriate; they keep pushing and pushing.
Only a strenous outcry to get the lib Lindens to get over their loophole on this and see it starkly as it will be seen outside their magic circle will work.
No amount of calling on the child avatar community to show prudence will work, not when they are aggressively and belligerently trying to prove that they have every right to run around the adult grid.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | June 16, 2009 at 05:10 PM
>Last time I walked through lets say Hamburgs amusement district, streets weren't closed to RL kids. Sure, they weren't allowed to step into the bars, brothels, whatever - but they weren't banned from public places.
Normal parents don't take their kids walking through such districts, or let them roam through it unsupervised. And in RL, you can't webcam into a room, or sit on a prim through a locked door.
Just WHAT IS IT that these kids NEED TO DO precisely on the adult grid with the brothel as their screenshot backdrop, Daniel?
You're awfully evasive on THAT point because you have no case. ANYTHING they wish to do that is innocent can be done in PG, it doesn't HAVE to have the adult continent as its setting. SO WHY ARE THEY THERE? And the answer is: because it's just the latest incremental step that the aggressive ageplay lobby, which you represent, is hammering and screaming for as a tactic in eroding the lines of clarity on this issue.
You're just covering up for your inherent lack of morality and appreciation of the legal mandate on this issue, and looking for ways to erode standards, fisk, literalize and dissemble. That more than anything disproves your case. For years your forums cartel on this issue kept telling us you didn't engage in sexualized play. We didn't believe you because of how aggressively, whinily, and defensively you had to tell us this every 5 minutes.
And now, fortunately, we have fresh evidence to believe you because you now demand the right to have brothels as the backdrop for your kid picnics. Extremely lame and fake argumentation. You don't. You don't need to risk that Dirk the Dick will come bouncing into view -- you can stay on PG, duh.
There is a black and white on this issue, not of my invention, which you are muddying because you represent the covert ageplay lobby, as usual, pretending to be for innocent child play merely as a tactic (and now you've utterly shown your hand on that score by demanding adult access).
No, I don't respect lying and disembling aggressive assholes who use this pretense as a cover for a sinister agenda. Not at all.
In fact, people who have moral clarity and set laws *do* rule the world, and you'll be finding that out.
Er, right, a communist dictatorship is "just like" a law forbidding child avatars to depict pornography and child rape while pretending to skip rope in front of a brothel or next to dancing dicks. Right! JUST like it! lol.
I'm not the one who invented the concept of banning simulated pornography. EU governments, including your own in Germany, did this, even more restrictedly than in the U.S. But it is certainly a norm I respect for moral reasons.
You do not, because indeed you *are* immoral and cannot concede this boundary. I'm glad we've had a chance to flush this out finally with your despicable apoligism for the child avatar on the adult grid.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | June 16, 2009 at 05:22 PM
Dale, please DO go fuck yourself because you ARE an asshole, and your ex-wife and girlfriend think you are a loser.
The idea that everyone "needs" to go into the adult grid to avoid an abuse report and that it's the new "free zone" is absurd on the face of it, because it represents a higher degree of intrusive scrutiny from the Lab with age verification, the concentration of a population in one physical/geographical location which makes it much easier to police (the rationale for policing in RL red districts, too) and hangs a big cowbell ringing on every person on that grid (and it IS a grid because you must be verified in ways you don't have to be elsewhre; part of the grid, or technical grid with a special log-on --those are mechanics. In policy terms, it's like a separate grid, behind a firewall.
We will not even be physically SEEING these sims from the next sims near them. That's how much of a labour camp it will be.
To portray this sequestering as a new free hip zone is just fisking and contrarian nonsense.
Go back to fisking and dismantling the JIRA into a million bite-size troll pieces, Dale, that's picking on something your own size.
Posted by: Prokofy Neva | June 16, 2009 at 05:27 PM
Prokofy, the RL stuff is really uncalled for. And all the more puzzling in that it's completely inaccurate. :) Not that that's any of your business.
Posted by: Dale Innis | June 16, 2009 at 07:20 PM
People bitched about adult players "forcing" their adult role play on others. Now adult role play is forced to Zindra.
Child avatars are and always will represent a clear liability to Linden Research Inc. and to Second Life. If Linden Research Inc. wants to avoid more trouble they will deal with this issue promptly and we will see either a separate continent for child avatars and child content or a total ban on child avatars.
There is no in between.
There is plenty of evidence in Second Life to make a junior congressperson's career by crucifying Phillip Rosedale and Mark Klingdon over the rampant simulated pedophilia in Second Life.
There is no reason whatsoever for a child representation to be present in an adult rated region. None whatsoever.
Linden research crapped on the adult industry. Guess what is about to happen next. Time is of the essence. I estimate no more than a week is available for a policy statement banning all child representations from adult areas if not from Second Life in it's entirety.
Posted by: Ann Otoole | June 16, 2009 at 09:18 PM
I absolutely agree that child avatars have no place on Zindra. Perhaps there was some sort of "probationary preview" in effect, but going forward once the shops are filled there is no reason for child avies to be there. We never have and never will allow child avies on Eros. I can see the pictures in the New York Post now..Two avatars doing the pixel polka on a sexbed demo while a child avie dressed in "Hello Kitty" pj's looks on. I visited the sims for the first time today and was dismayed at the architectural offerings of the LDPW "moles". I was expecting "Tinky Winky", "Laa Laa" or "Po" to peek out from around a corner at any moment. Linden Lab is now in the porn biz like it or not. You can bet your last poseball that Linden G-Team alts will be crawling all over every square inch once Zindra is stocked and live. Apparently, "Verified" doesn't necessarily mean "Adult". "Fuck You Hedonism" indeed.
Posted by: Stroker Serpentine | June 16, 2009 at 09:35 PM
I really feel the need, desire, social commitment to post here. I am age verified. {Came when I used a credit card to buy Linden land I guess}. I couldnt be trusted in the waning days of the "Hippie Revolution" because by then I was already over 30. {for those who weren't around then, "dont trust anybody over 30".
I'm a parent, a grandparent,and yes..a great grandparent. I am absolutely of the opinion that child avies are creepy. Not because I hate children. They are creepy feeling. They have as much business on a sim where sex,pornagraphy, or extreme violence is represented as I do in a Christian heaven. {there that ought to inflame some passions!...Cause if you knew my years of licentious behavior as a alcoholic drug addict you would understand why thats funny!} All the rational for personal freedoms be dammned. It is creepy, illegal, immoral, perverted and a lot more desciptive words for a child to be in a whorehouse,BDSM club,strip club,X rated theater and more real life. And dont try and tell me that as a parent I can bypass those various laws. Holocluck if you find what I'm about to say as flaming, so goddam well be it. You are pendejo...look it up. translates as 'more than stupid'. I am a fervant believer in freedom of expression. I believe that any government...even a benovolent monarchy should maintain a hands off policy.......as much as possible. There will..and must always be exceptions. In the USA I have freedom of speech and action. I may not threaten the President...I may not scream "fire" in a crowded theater. I may not sexually exploit children. As far as I'm concerned gambling is fine. Vir World banking was fine. Linden Lab is a california based business. Those activities were limited for apparently purely legal business decisions. OK , so be it. Sometimes what one person sees as clearly bad behavior isnt the question....but the appearance of bad behavior is. Ichabod and Darien both have reasonable posts here. Dont deliberately create a potential legal issue. And work on the solution before it becomes a really huge problem.
Bringing in RL isnt uncalled for. Its just another way to try and find a solution. RL situations caused a lot of finacial loss to many that had gambling operations here.
As a personal issue, pixel sex just isnt my thing, but I guess I would find a screenfull of tiny bunnies doing it hilarious. Tiny pigtailed avies??? Creepy. Thats the appearance of bad behavior.
And I find it inconceiveable that it happened in the presence of a Linden.
Posted by: brinda allen | June 16, 2009 at 09:55 PM
"a policy statement banning all child avatars.... from Second Life in it's entirety." Which for me and many others would be, frankly, a devastation BUT if Linden Research Inc :-) decides to take that step in order to preserve the service they offer to the many then it's one I will gladly accept. It would be a shame but the blame would not lie with Linden Lab, it would lie squarely on the coquettish shoulders of those "prominent" members of the SL kid community (such as it is) who persist in "advocating for SL children's rights" at the expense of real children.
Posted by: ichabod Antfarm | June 16, 2009 at 09:59 PM
While in character the child avatar does not belong in Zindra at all.
Where are their parents?????
Posted by: June Trefoil | June 16, 2009 at 11:15 PM