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« The Future is NOW | Main | Bridge Too Far? »

June 16, 2009

Comments

Prokofy Neva

OH, no, Dale. I will be as nasty as I possibly can, and make it as personal as I possibly can, because you know, and I know, that you are behaving like a raging fucking dick to me, doing it deliberately, stalking me, and harassing me. You know it, I know it, and everyone sees it here.

Your batting your eyelashes and pretending offense and feigning sincerity are now so transparently fake that I wonder why you bother any more.

I see EXACTLY what you are doing to my JIRA proposals, now that I cannot defend myself being banned there, and I know EXACTLY why you are doing this -- sinister, fucked perniciousness and stalking. You know it, and I know it -- and others see it, and they comment on it, but they simply don't wish to tangle with you over it, precisely because you are a bloody-minded stalker.

Everyone can see your are taking apart the JIRAs step by step and trying to bedevil and harry them to death instead of accepting the simple, elegant principle that makes all of these problems one bug, a bug in the hierarchy of rules. And you, like Soft, have an inherent inability to accept hat precisely because the rule of law of rules in a group means nothing to you, and you think everything can be overthrown, and everything is destructible -- because at root, you are a nihilist.

Your nihilism on this issue is clear, too, because you refuse to acknowledge that there is a basic rule of law criminalizing child pornography, and moral law making such "ageplay" reprehensible, and yet you keep fisking it and edge-casing it and trying to erode the distinctions so that you can impose your usual hedonic and disruptive geek tyranny. I know it, and you know it.

Holocluck, clearly, you belong to some religious/political/ideological sect (nudists can be big promoters of this concept of legalizing "ageplay"; also cynical leftist geeks are another constituency bent on legalizing "ageplay".

Why the scare quotes? Because "ageplay" is a euphemism for child pornography and child rape, and I don't indulge in the prettification of this evil the way you do.

I also refuse to carve out some "innocent" and "pure" readout on the term "ageplay" when we all know full well that "ageplayers" themselves invented this term as a euphemism to cover up their essential immorality and criminality. So I won't indulge them - or you -- in this vain exercise.

There isn't a pretty, pure, and innocent readout from the word "ageplay" that I will concede, participate in, condone, and virally spread. Not on your life. It's reprehensible, and I will not be playing that game with you in any form.

You have some success with Lindens and liberals easily goosed on the forums by accusations of intolerance and failure to provide civil rights -- you'll get absolutely NOWHERE with that bullshit with me because I see right through it, as do most readers with any common sense. You're not going to succeed in browbeating, intimidating, and bullying people into overcoming their natural revulsion and condemnation of this behavior and transposing it into a "lifestyle tolerance issue".

Moral and legal positions aren't about repressed religious upbringings, because religious upbringings need not be repressed (look who is being a bigot here, eh?). There's nothing wrong with a religious background and one that shapes a moral response to criminal and immoral behaviour. Sorry, but I'm not here to help you build up your crediblity for turning a criminal and moral issue into a rights issue -- it doesn't fly.

Age verification also has nothing to do with anything. I'm age verified as I think anyone in business has to be if they expect to get through the thicket of land and menus they'll have to be getting through all over the grid, even if they don't take out a parcel in the adult grid per se.

I'm also refusing -- again -- to indulge your conceit that the preview period of the new continent is a "free zone" in which "anything goes". It isn't. I concede no ground on there ever be any reason for any child avatars to come to the adult grid unless they wish to put one over on all of us -- and their presence there gives the lie to all their claims to the contrary. It's a pernicious kind of contrariness on their part -- in acts like Marianne's here -- to want to keep aggressively pushing this line that more than anything manifests how much playing a child avatar is a sign of deep dysfunction.

I don't care if "ageplayers" raise money for Relay for Life, help blind people to cross the street in SL, and donate blood in RL and help newbies. That doesn't exculpate them and this racket that they've got going try to ingratiate and rehabilitate themselves.

I will indeed AR any child I find in the adult grid that I see on my land. They do not belong there. I will start by banning those who have been vocal on this in advance, because they do not belong there. They have exposed their shtick of innocence as utterly fake by even demanding a role on the adult continent.

People like you only understand relentless, unmitigated force, an you'll get it from me.

Prokofy Neva

Ann, I have to wonder if in fact this is some kind of strange deliberate set-up -- create the adult continent, set it up and drive everybody there, and then suddenly duck and cover on the child issue, and appear to accept a very legalistic and nihilistic construction of letting in child avatars who aren't literally engaged in sexualized activity -- and then waiting for nature to take its course.

And nature takes its course with a right-wing radio show host, blogger, junior congressman, or even just some parents group from Milwaukee that isn't especially religious or right wing or anything but just happens to catch sight of all this and thinks it's awful stuff. As they are right to think.

So perhaps the Lindens are deliberately engaged in hari-kari.

Prokofy Neva

> I was expecting "Tinky Winky", "Laa Laa" or "Po" to peek out from around a corner at any moment.

Hahahahah thanks for my biggest ROFLMAO in a long time!

Daniel Regenbogen

Oh Prok, you really have not the slightes idea what you are talking about from your high wannabe moralic horse. Families with kids LIVE in and close to redlight districts all over the world, often they have to because when you are poor you have no real choice about where to live. Kids leave the house in the morning to go to school and walk through such streets, even wait at the school bus stop located in the area. So shut your dirty mouth up about judging parents - I'm much more afraid for children who have to suffer from grewing up in the presence of hate mongers like you.

BTW, there is NO adult grid. There is a Teen Grid and a Main Grid, the new adult continent only being a part of the latter. A part of Mainland and therefore open to everyone. The purpose of the adult continent, according to what LL said again and again, was to offer those who DON'T want to encounter adult stuff at all a "clean" SL, while offering those who don't have a problem with it to still have a place. Zindra is a place that tells visitors "if you go here, you might encounter adult content, so don't be upset and come crying if it happens".

As I wrote in the xstreet forum: Will I go there? Most likely not (even though because of your outcry I start to get curious). But if lets say one of my favourite shops moves there because he sells skins in one corner and uses nude displays of them, I might change my mind. Anybody harrassing me for being there will find himself on the receiving end of an AR.

Morals... Well, mine are good enough to work in a RL kids and youth center. Funny, isn't it?

I don't know about the history of your life, but I was born in a communist state (not that I lived long in it, but my parents did). And they see a very close similarity between freedoms taken away in the name of Marx and Lenin and freedoms taken away in the name of god or what some people in their twisted minds see as the only moralic way of living. The latter today being more dangerous, because most people now have seen what communism means (or rather what this wannabe-communism that was installed in those countries means) - but those like you sweettalk their wanted dictatorship by "it's all for your own and your childrens good".

It's funny how you mix things that have nothing to do with each other. Yes, there are laws against virtual child pornography. But a child avatar visiting Zindra has nothing to do with that as long as he doesn't participate in anything like that.

Prokofy Neva

Daniel,

You are a freak and an "ageplay" apologist, and need to justify what your need is to engage in such apologism, if you yourself are not a pedophile. What is your game here?

For years on the forums you claimed your "innocent ageplayers" who were sanctifying the term "ageplay" by keeping it pure and innocent and never engaging in sexualized activity were terribly misunderstood and awful victims of group hate and busy enlightening us all as to the "proper" way we had to understand this new politically-correct imperative.

We were all to be terribly chastised because we just couldn't concede that people in child avatars were just good folks having a child-like wonderful time.

Now the mask has slipped, and we can in fact validate what we suspected all the time -- that this is a lobby that has found a cover for its sinister agenda by turning the desire of liberals to be tolerant and the invocation of "lifestyle tolerance" everywhere, so that before long, we will see the acronymn soup that must guide our morality morph once again, this time to LGBTA.

And why has the mask slipped and the agenda of a sinister lobby become clear? Because now these innocent ones are demanding the right to go frolic among the brothels and the dancing phalluses on the adult grid, backed by the Linden loopholes which they put in not out of concern for tolerance or art, but because they've been overthrown by a sinister lobby and can't muster true liberal values to fight it. And you, and some of them (this policy is going to get debated by LL, and will likely be changing, just like the original policy that tolerated actual child pornography simulation had to change) are now claiming that you can find some neutral space on the adult grid and push the edges out once again (which, after all, is the purpose of this lobby -- to grind and grind and wear away the stone of law and morality in cynical legal and moral nihilism).

So it's useful to have this happen because now we can see what you're truly up to.

Once again, we are stretching metaphors taken with great strain from RL in the first place.

In RL, cities have democratic government and can decide how and where and why they want these red districts to thrive or not thrive. In NYC, they moved it over some blocks to the west and south some years ago because of the outcry of businesss that it was starting to harm the tourist trade and cause the inevitable drug and crime flotsam and jetsam to adhere to the same regions (west 42nd Street by Times Square). Today, there are Disney theaters where adult movies used to thrive because people decided tourism was more important to sustain than somebody's notion of free speech.

And that meant that the red-light district got pushed further and further into residential and school neighbourhoods so that in fact, a lurid BDSM paraphernalia store was pushed to within a block of my son's school. So, I found another way to walk to school so I didn't have to explain why some people in leather and chains think it's ok to put others half-naked into chains to a 10-year-old.

In SL, I sure as hell got less choice about it. I couldn't call my city hall or use any of the levers of politics and the media if I were interested to discuss and resolve the issue of the clash of one interest group with another. I couldn't chose another path to walk because the scene was pervasive and in all search results even "furniture" or "prefabs" because of key word abuse or pandering. So the metaphor is entirely strained and in fact false.

I'll go on calling it an adult grid despite the tekkie corrections that come at five-minute intervals because it is like a grid in that you require authorization (verification) and it is not visible to the rest of the grid (through a new future). That it does not technically have some tekkie paganistically-used Indian goddess name over it like aditi or agni means nothing.

The purpose of Zindra is to concentrate the adult industry in one place so that people can either avoid it, or conversely find it.

You've yet to explain coherently what it is about the fabulous and innocent ageplay-sanitizing child avatar gang that needs to find the adult grid. Why do people role-playing children need to go find the adult grid? This isn't being walked past the BDSM adult store because there isn't another path to school; this isn't avoiding the BDSM store; this is deliberately going to jump rope and roller skate up and down in front of the BDSM store and crying "Mommy, mommy, look at me, I can hang out in front of the BDSM store and you can't do a thing about it, nyah, nyah."

Infantile, indeed, which is of course the hallmark of those playing child avatars.

Another completely fabricated and preposterous edge case is that this sanitizing-ageplay movement needs to go to "favourite stores" that just happen to mix jumpers and lollypops and tricycles with chains and strap-ons. That's generally a misrepresentation, but of course, there are those who make both, and they make both because they, too, are interested in eroding the line and pushing the envelope in line with the nihilist and sinister goals of the ageplay-sanitizing movement.

Being born in a Marxist-Leninst state, apparently you ingested more of the legal and moral nihilism manifest in such states than you are prepared to admit.

Other societies aren't filled with religious repression and political conservatism; they're just not filled with Marxist-Leninist induced legal and moral nihilism.

There is a big difference between communism, which sent millions to forced labour or their deaths, and those who wish to incorporate laws and morals that don't sanctify and legitimize ageplay -- a child avatar denied the right to go rollerskating in the brothel zone isn't being sent to the Gulag or losing his "rights"; he is being directed as to the side of law and morality that he should ostensibly be on if he is in fact claiming innocence.

But he is neither injured, nor innocent, and this is helpful to see now due to your lobbying shenanigans.

No child avatar has any business in Zindra, and explicitly adult continent. The Lindens will get this right in due course or lawyers, congressmen, and media will help them get it right.

Dale Innis

Mr. Neva, for the Nth time, I have never stalked you, I have never harassed you. I just do the normal things that an ordinary SL internet user does, posting to my weblog, reading and commenting on other weblogs, including yours, reading and writing and commenting on JIRA entries, including yours (I can actually think of only one JIRA entry of yours that I've commented on). I'm generally polite and pretty rational.

And then once in awhile you come tearing in out of left field, cursing and calling me names for no apparent reason, accusing me of believing things that I don't believe, and of doing things that I haven't done.

It's getting sort of old, really.

And are you now seriously suggesting that, if someone posts weblog and JIRA comments that you don't like, it's a legitimate response to try to start malicious rumors about their RL family life in your weblog?

I doubt many people would agree.

Seriously.

Cube Republic

Got to agree that child avatars dancing around giant dildos, in the welcome area of the adult continent, while a linden watches does not really look very good. I feel that a ban on child avis from adult sims will be next. Apart from anything else, it's just blatant common sense.

Prokofy Neva

Oh, I'm happy to start malicious rumours about you and your family because you are a grade-A asshole, and fighting dirty is ALL you understand.

Indeed anyone can see you ARE stalking and trolling my JIRA proposals and it is not AT ALL about somehow making legitimate and dissenting comments to my point of view. Not at all.

You showed up in the JIRA because you read about it here and decided to harass and bully me in the usual below-the-radar fashion that is in fact so obvious because it is so frequent. You have no true interest in rentals and property being returned from parcels because you don't run rentals or care about these issues, you're just being an asshole trolling the JIRA (as so many do there).

To come in and not only make asshole comments, but start entire new fake JIRAs, then bully and bedevil Angela and others trying to respond decently and in good faith -- that's just obvious trolling (a term you and your little friends use, not my term) and we all see what you are up to.

If you find that it is "old" go play with your wife/girlfriend and stop stalking me for your nihilistic and gleefully evil satisfaction. Or go work out your parental issues in therapy, as you seem to suffer from several varieties of them.

Yes, I am seriously suggesting that you are a grade-A raging asshole deliberately stalking and harassing me in those JIRAs, and on this blog, something you can get away with because judges don't recognize restraining orders for the Internet.

I don't block people like you until you reach the point of causing me damages, as I've warned you about before.

But I will go on exposing the assholery you engage in.

Get a life, Dale, and as I've said before, go fuck yourself if you can't find anybody else to fuck.

Dale Innis

A prime example of the phenomenon to which I was referring. :)

Desmond Shang

Knowing Dirk and Marianne well enough, and hearing about all this... I can completely understand how the whole situation is just laughably stupid.

But... for those who know nothing else other than what's presented on the screen... I gotta side with Prok on this one.

Marianne, if you see something like a Dancing Disco Willie, even if it's just Dirk goofing off, for your own sake it's time to get far far away in a hurry.

Gavin Hird

Let me share a story how creepy Marianne is on this subject:

One of my staff happened to pass by her store in Bay City witnessing interaction between an adult male avatar and a female child avatar that could be seen as sexual ageplay. He also heard 2 lines of chat in Spanish being indicative of such interaction.

My man contacted Marianne to make her aware of the situation he had witnessed, and she basically responded by banning him from her land.

She also ridiculed the situation and claimed the dialog had been in Portugese and that nothing had happened. She was in no shape or form helpful to bring clarity into what had transpired on her land.

As for the general subject, I have posted on this in the SL blog as there are both loopholes in the Linden policy on the issue, in addition to substancial risk of media and legal exposure.

Holocluck Henly

Pro? You don't speak for anybody.

Unlike me, you act like you're some sort of authority. I rarely go to the Forums. What I say there takes no authority or genius. Basically people who don't use SL the way you do are bullied: people of ethnicity, people exploring alternate sexuality, people who are reliving their childhood, people who find so many great things to see, do, and be a part of without sex. There are people doing pirate, historic, and scifi rpg somewhere right now on several among thousands of private islands, oblivious to us and we to them. There's nothing wrong with any of this OR of people who want to pursue sexuality or fetishism.

Me, I act like an adult. I know there's a TIME and PLACE for everything. I recognize that there isn't JUST my way or the highway, but a wide range of cultural and personal thresholds to RESPECT in Cyberculture, and that what civil values most of us practice offline do apply to online.

You think in black and white: either someone is this or that. Or someone is this or the enemy. The mindset of "if you don't come to Second Life to screw then there's something wrong with you" is a recurring theme and really tiring and childish. And displays a serious bigot streak.

The place is big enough for everyone to do anything they want, and here finally is a Mainland continent where people will be able to do what they want legally on their own land regardless of cammers and flybys. Instead of throwing people out or restricting the site, they've gone out of their way to make a very VERY nice continent to accommodate them. Businesses will be pleased since everyone will have a better idea where to locate them.

I happen to have friends waiting to get in. I also have friends who run their own islands, one with successful and elegant rendezvous hideaways. There are places there for sex and places where everyone is welcome. I've known them for years, and somehow we get along. What they pursue sexually does not involve me or outside areas which welcome it. Second Life isn't a 24 hour orgy for them, yet they still manage to satisfy and fulfill their desires - and bring joy to others.

So what's the big deal? The continent opened up for previews and we all got to take a look. You're acting like you're on some sort of witch hunt. Not a single image has been brought forth to show anyone's been in violation of a single thing. There has been a new, marvelous place and SL's residents have collectively celebrated. This is NOT a terrible thing, and it's very sad to make it into one.

Pip

Darnit! I hate agreeing with you, Prokofy. Thanks for ruining my day. I won't bother with a discussion of morality. Bottom line is child porn is illegal. If it weren't, the Lindens would not bother with the age-play restrictions. If there weren't money to be made, they wouldn't be bothering with the Adult sims either for that matter. Boy, Blondin really put his foot in it by not distancing himself immediately from the child avatar. What a mess.

Inara Pey

Dale Innis wrote:

"So to my mind Zindra and other Adult lands aren't just for sex"

WRONG!!!!

Zindra was specifically created to contain _extreme adult content_ - LL's own words.

Bottom line: allowing child avatars into Zindra could be taken as a sign that LL tacitly _condone_ ageplay, regardless of the "reasons" those with the child avatars give for being there.

Given the witch-hunt the likes of Mark Kirk (R. Illinois) is repeatedly trying to lead against LL / SL, allowing child AVs into Zindra - coupled with comments such as Blondin's - are nothing short of ill-considered and somewhat stupid.

Sean Williams

Sorry Inara ... YOU are wrong.

Zindra is for ANYTHING that does not fall under Mature within LL's new policy regarding classification.

That means that if some user, wearing a child shape, decides they want to go and watch a horror or slasher movie within SL .... they have to go to, you guessed it, ZINDRA!

Kindly stop drinking the kool-aid and get the facts first, hmm?

Dale Innis

Yeah, Inara, the Lindens have at times said that Zindra (or Ursula as it was then) is only for the most extreme stuff. But that was mostly early on; more recently (as Sean says) they've said that it's for anything that falls under the (quite broad and vague) definition of "Adult". Except that informally they've stated that some things that technically fall under the definition of "Adult" are actually okay in Mature areas. Except that then they say that that statement is only their own personal opinion and doesn't count.

So it's hard to tell!

Personally I think and hope that there will be lots of stuff on Adult land that isn't just wall to wall blood and porn. But I know I could be wrong, it being a belief about the future an' all.

On the child AV thing I'm torn, I admit. I like to err on the side of liberty, and when someone wants to do something that doesn't actually hurt anyone, I like it when they can do that. But I do understand, for instance, the concerns that someone with an obviously-Adult venue on Zindra would have about, say, some publicity-hungry reporter getting a picture of a kid AV on the street outside the place, and that getting in the news with the implication that they're pedophiles. The fault would be imho with the reporter and the people misunderstanding what the photo really means, but it would still be a bad result.

So, sigh. I dunno.

Prokofy Neva

The facts are that PG is where the child avatars belong, M is where adults who keep their sex in private belong, and AO is the adult oriented grid specifically for explicit sex and violence.

Those ARE the facts. The idea that these aren't separate areas but areas that incrementally add each feature and encompass each group into them comes out of the nihilist geek mind. But it isn't "the facts".

The facts are, if you are pretending you are an innocent kid, you should not be parading around brothels and sex clubs and BDSM scenes of violence.

Kids should not be watching slasher movies. If you are RP a kid, RP a kid, and don't morph it to suit yourself.

Chosing to play a kid isn't just your choice, it becomes the choice of everyone whose view you are in. People selecting the adult experience of SL should not be burdened, inhibited and just plain creeped out by kids there.

Prokofy Neva

A reminder that this isn't Blondin as an individual, goofing up.

This is Blondin as a Linden responsible for mainland communities, of which Zindra is one. Think of it like an adult Nautilus (it looks like one, too, with the same compressed cypress shrubs).

He is saying this because it's been cleared at some level -- I'm not sure which. At the level of Jack or Cyn?

He's also able to exploit the legal loophole of Ken Linden's readout on this which is "have a child avatar, but don't do sexualized activities" and expand that to include "and have a child avatar and don't do sexualized activities even if you are on a continent specifically set aside for adult activites."

Sophisty, literalism, geek cynicism, all the way down the line.

What we have come to expect from this gang at the Lab. They never learn.

Sean Williams

A typical attempt to grasp at straws from you Prokofy by inserting your own moral code and attempting to pass it off as the societal norm.

Thankfully, your morals AREN'T the societal norm and thus we have people that actually understand that REAL kids DO watch horror movies all the time .... and are exposed to FAR worse if their parents are the sort who follow the news.

Again, stick to the facts and not your twisted little views: I've already heard the other side of the incident that sparked this tirade of yours ... and laughed it off, as have many others.

Keep trying to spin it into something it isn't though ... since you always do.

Prokofy Neva

Let me break it down to you, Holocluck. On the Linden-run forums, you can hector and bully other people, safe in the knowledge that nobody can ever call you a fucktard, because they'd be banned, and no one can ever tell you simply to shut up because your notions are sectarian, because then you'd get up some Linden/geek posse to ban them anyway. We all know how it works.

Here, that doesn't fly. You are told you are a fucktard when you behave as one, and you are told you are a sectarian with a minority, not majority opinion, despite your illusions on that score.

You've already cited a number of specious arguments like "Awww, mommy, it's only the first day, let us take a peek" which don't fly.

But you've also used the methods often used in the Linden setting to make it appear that you represent "mainstream, liberal right-thinking people" -- when you don't. I'm here to help disabuse you and others of that notion.

If you are not an avowed pedophile yourself (and I'm happy to assume you are not), and you are not a cryptic pedophile pretending not to be one, while zealously trying to move forward the movement's agenda, then that leaves one thing:

You are a minority extremist, a cynical geek or alternative lifestyler who thinks in the name of freedom you have to insist on the right to simulate child pornography and simulate child rape. Yes, that's what it is. Let's call it by its accurate name.

What you do NOT get to claim is that you are a constituent of a mass, liberal, right-thinking
movement, who is just doing the right thing resisting religious conservatives.

You're not. You are in a sect.

Your attempts to try to portray others in that light /fail. Why? Because you don't have to like me to agree with me on this -- and people are agreeing me. You can be a BDSM practitioner, GLBT, alternative lifestyler, extreme leftist, or adult store owner, and some of them are lining up in this thread from those perspectives, and STILL think that THIS is wrong. THIS is not the norm for the liberal and THIS cannot fly.

That doesn't make me "an authority," it just means that most people concede across a liberal to left and right spectrum that children do not belong on an adult sim. End of story. It's not hard to say when you a) aren't an avowed pedophile b) aren't a secret pedophile trying to run the movement's agenda or c) a minority sectarian who thinks cynically and aggressively flogging this helps artistic expression.

The reason you don't hear more people on this is that people are very afraid to take on the pedophiles, their lobbyists, and their fellow-travellers, because when they do, they are bullied and harassed and told they are uncool and aren't progressive. I don't fear those things, so I'm free to tell you off.

Most people have no problem understanding where child pornography leaves off, and artistic freedom of expression begins. Perhaps because they grasp that artistic expression, being free, doesn't glory in the violent and sinister destruction of a child's innocence, which is an example of UNfreedom. That's all.

So you are a subset of an already small minority (cynical nihilist geeks) and you are talking on a plastic play phone that is not hooked up to anything.

So far from leading the masses in their charge for artistic freedom against the evil conservative revanchist Prokofy, you are in a sect, and a sect that doesn't have any joiners.

Another thing that people find utter fake about your spewing here is this putative creative class bursting to break free as pirates, elves, whatever, and now are "bullied" and "can't explore their alternative sexuality" because...um...they would not be allowed on the adult grid (were the Lindens using basic legal sense and commonsense morality here).

But...that's bullshit...They can fulfill their dreams in PG if they need to fulfill them as kids.

I'm not aware of what alternative sexuality a child would be, um, exploring but they can explore in PG.

Speaking this manner is reminiscent of Soviet disinformation. It's all bullshit, and all a distraction.

Uh, not letting children on the adult grid has nothing to do with their race lol. That's hilarious, that you can try to work those liberal guilt tripwires so frantically, hoping to get SOMETHING to work to try to guilt-trip people into allowing children on the adult grid. Doesn't fly.

Nor does comparing not allowing children on to the adult grid similar to suppressing alternative lifestyles or sexuality. Huh? Who said anything about that? That's what the adult grid is FOR. Being against child avatars on the adult grid IS NOT THE SAME THING as somehow being against GLBT or anything of the sort. To try to merge those two issues into one fake discussion also only discredits you. Because plenty of people are for allowing sexually explicit material in SL, including me; I just don't want child avatars proximate to it. Normal, everyday stuff.

Again, you are in a sect.

A huge range of expression, artist and sexual is allowed in SL, encouraged, and you can find it on all my rentals. I myself will have an adult hotel on the adult continent. So your rant and rage not only came to the wrong address; it is another tactic used by the "ageplay" lobby to blur distinctions, muddy the waters, create fake straw men, and cast those against the simulation of child pornography as somehow evil suppressors of art and freedom. They aren't. Rather, this "ageplay" lobby is a proponent of violence and crime that is morally wrong and legally proscribed.

People who build their house on the foundation of RESPECT cannot persuade us their foundation is sound when they bully us into thinking RESPECT involves applauding the simulated rape of a child. It doesn't.

Many people come to SL for sex. That's fine. They don't do their sex 24/7. Their sex, even if pixelated, appears to correlate to their RL physiological abilities to masturbate, oh, 1 or 5 times a day, but not 24/7 lol. So in between orgasms, they shop and go to Metanomics. I dare say they don't cyber DURING Metanomics because it's like salt peter in the water.

Quite a few people -- a minority, but a significant and growing one of some 25 percent or so -- come not to socialize or seek a partner but to engage in government, non-profit, art, science stuff. Even those people do sneak off and get blow jobs every once in awhile, as in all convention cities, but by and large they don't seek the sexual side of SL.

Just because there are people who are a) here on a government mission b) reading poetry or c) shopping in between their cybering or d) simply not interested in cybersex but happy to tolerate SL ratings up to adult, doesn't mean that therefore, the adult grid is ok for children. It's not. Just because on the adult continent, someone might hold a lecture on, oh, how to prevent RL AIDS as a kind of public service, or someone might simply have a PG picnic or somebody might just like to go fishing doesn't mean that this continent is therefore ok for children. It is not. They can have their picnics, their lectures about AIDS, and their fishing in their PG continent, full stop.

It's useful to have Holocluck's rantings in a context outside the Linden PC context because it can readily be debunked -- he is raising all the guilt-inducing PC bullshit mantras, but all in an effort to distract from our main point here:

Why do you, Holocluck Henly, need to permit the simulation of child pornography in SL? Why? And why must YOU permit a child to appear on a continent filled with sexualized scenes? What is YOUR NEED for this? YOU EXPLAIN YOURSELF in this regard, because I DO NOT NEED TO. I'm representing a mainstream, even liberal and tolerant public opinion, consistent with the values of civil liberties and tolerance. You are not. I'm not the one who has to explain themselvse. You are.

Everybody saw Marianne McCann dancing with Dirk-as-Dick Talamasca. This isn't disputed without having to show screenshots. Furthermore, there are plenty of very scantily clad people, BDSM types kitted out in all their full regalia, talking and acting like adults as they should be able to on this continent explicitly for this purpose. Kids dancing and playing and showing off their status as kids there do not belong there, and their effort to do so is part of a sinister agenda.

As I've said before, the Lindens may not get this right immediately; I hope it won't take congressmen, news media, parents' groups etc making it for them.

Text Timeless

A couple of questions:

- I get exploration, as it's one of my favorite SL activities. But if there's *no* content on Zindra yet (as claimed by a few), then there's nothing to see...so why would child (or any) avs go there?
- And on the flip side of that, if there *is* content on an Adult continent to explore, why (as Prok asks) would child avs want to go there? Besides, it does say "Adult-Only," so why is it unreasonable to exclude child avs?

This mostly goes to the "preview period" argument, because if there's stuff to preview, then there's content there, and if there's content there and the public can visit, then...Zindra *is* open for business, even if not all the actual businesses are yet open.

And if Zindra's open for business, then the rules should stand, Blondin's statement notwithstanding.

Holocluck Henly

np Brinda. Your comment doesnt apply to anything I've written anyway. I happen to agree with most of what you've said. I also agree that most child avatars are creepy, but that's because there are limitations to avatar customization.

Micha Sass

There is alot of accusations flying in here. Prokofy, if you believe someone you know, who plays SL is a pedophile, you must call the police. Publishing a blog posting, and many page long responses is not going to do anything for the RL children.

Rex Cronon

I don't think that ll really wants that when people think of SL, to think of images of children dancing, or being surrounded by male organs? I think that the news industry would have a field day with such images/movies.
There are store/sim owners that would be put in a very awkward position, if pictures/movies of avatar that look like children were taken inside their store, or inside a sim during a adults only "party".
Is very unlikely that most of the regular avatars that go to Zindra just for "fun", would like it if a child like avatar pops up while they are doing it. It would be even worse if pictures were taken at this time.
Even if those child like avatars have no intention to go to adults only stores, adults only sims, or to interrupt somebody else's private "fun" time, it is very possible that mistakes can happen. It is also very likely that a lot of avatars on the Zindra will wear XXX rated clothes, and/or attachments. So, how easy it will be to find places that are "clean" enough for those child like avatars? If such places will exist than it means even those that aren't "verified" should be able to go there. If is "clean" enough for a child like avatar, it should also be "clean" enough for a un-verified avatar:)

Prokofy Neva

Um, yeah, Micha, I'll do that if I happen to come across such a situation. But that's only one type of offense -- the worst kind, and less prevelant than the OTHER offense we're talking about here, which is child avatars engaging in sex and justifying that they can do that because they are adults in RL.

But...there are rules against that, not of my making, but the Lindens' making, and EU law. You do not have the right to depict even simulated child pornography even if an adult. And that's a good thing.

And then we have a third offensive action, which isn't outlawed yet, which is child avatars pushing this agenda, rather a sinister one, which is to erode the lines between what is allowed and what isn't, trying to batter people into desensitization to this issue.

So I'm not here to help them with that sinister agenda, and I will keep calling this -- child avatars do not belong on the adult grid.

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