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« The Future is NOW | Main | Bridge Too Far? »

June 16, 2009

Comments

Inara Pey

Sean Williams wrote:

Zindra is for ANYTHING that does not fall under Mature within LL's new policy regarding classification.

That means that if some user, wearing a child shape, decides they want to go and watch a horror or slasher movie within SL .... they have to go to, you guessed it, ZINDRA!

Kindly stop drinking the kool-aid and get the facts first, hmm?

=================

You obviously can't grasp facts. Let's try a simple A,B, C.

A) Zindra is for adult-related activities, and despite comments to the contrary, the changes it relates to most widely impact secxual activity within SL (proof of this lies with the so-called "hidden" filtered word list).

B) Zindra is marketed by LL as being for "Adult" content. Not PG, not Mature, A-D-U-L-T.

C) Having child avatars on the continent, in proximity to sexual content runs the risk of LL being seen as "condoning" ageplay by those of the same ilk as Mark Kirk et al _regardless_ of the actual reason for them being there.

If you can't see the duality and risk inherent in the decision to allow child avatars in an "Adult" environment, I respectfully suggest you should try laying off the kool aid yourself. It is clearly addling your thought processes.

Bluegum Lunasea

My feelings towards child avatars is based on the single question "in what context?".

In a toally PG sort of context well, then if you really want to, OK.

But in a sexualised or violent context? Absolutely NO WAY.

So then what is the object of creating Zindra? Why to put all the violent and sexual content in one place.

Surely then it follows that Zindra is the one place that avatars representing *children* (and not just small avatars - but actual children) have NO REASON to be?

I certainly will not hesitate to AR any child avatar I see on Zindra within sight of sexual content. They will have deliberatley come to the sexual content. Deliberatley.

There's just no excuse for having a child avatar in a sexual context.

Bluegum Lunasea

..."The purpose of the adult continent, according to what LL said again and again, was to offer those who DON'T want to encounter adult stuff at all a "clean" SL"...

Agreed. And the inescapable conclusion that follows is; 'that if we see a child avatar on the adult continent they are there because they *want* to encounter adult stuff'.

Child avatars have no place encountering either extreme sexual content or extreme violent content.

If you want to see it change your avatar.

brinda allen

It's not a matter of avatar customization. Send Lala Segall (or me..it's an alt) a note asking to chat...Lala is 3ft10. She's not a child avie...as her profile states shes just short. She is very adult looking...just short...shes funny.

Placing childlike avatars in proximity to adult orientated content is just asking for RL legislation. Again..its the perception not the act.

This situation is like a few others I've seen as far as Proks ranting and raving...I dont always agree...often I may not say much..usually cause the tech details are so far beyond me. But this subject I do understand. And no matter what...society in general needs those willing to stand up and scream at the top of their lungs when they see the Emperor has no clothes.

Echo Hermit

Maybe Linden Labs are herding all seeming to be so open-minded towards (sexual) ageplayers because they are working with worldwide law enforcement agencies to herd all the pedophiles together in one part of SL! Somehow I don't think so. But I am baffled why LL are going to allow child avatars onto the Adult Continent. And I am even more baffled why Marianne McCann would think it is OK to be dancing surrounded by phallic symbols. I thought she was squeaky clean.
Anyone who has ever ARd someone on grounds of Sexual Ageplay knows exactly how serious LL are about their ToS - ie not very. Its very hit and miss, and must depend on who is in the Governance Team office (and possibly what country they are based in, and whether they are parents in real life too).
I always say, don't knock it till you've tried it, and anyone who thinks child avatars are creepy really ought to create an alt and get in there as a child. You will find out that for sure its no place for a child. I did it - several times - created an alt - different aged child for each alt - and every single session I got hit on in an inappropriate manner.
It is not good enough for people to try and justify their actions by saying things like "your world, your imagination", or "we're all over 18 in SL". Sexualising children is against common decency, if not against the laws of all countries.
We have all these people on our "friends" list - but we don't really know who they are. That "nice" man that "little girl" is talking to, could honestly be building up his confidence to go out and assault a child for real, all he has to do is practice it enough times in SL, and by doing so, being allowed to do so, its just giving him assurance thats its perfectly acceptable to fiddle with kids in real life.
All of us know just how the graphics and imagery can affect us. You just have to look at how many people think they are "in love" - its all so intense.
Pedophiles have feelings too - are taken in by what they see on the screen - believe what they want to believe, as roleplayers, that they are "interacting" with a kid.
Its a heavy topic and not one to be taken lightly, and for sure it will only take one case where a pedophile has links to Second Life and the whole world will come crashing down.
I watch, I wait. Complacency kills.

Desmond Shang

As many of you know by now, the new continent of Zindra was inaugurated the other day.

Our esteemed Mr Talamasca practically defined that event, with his unique and fitting avatar for the occasion.

Seeing as to its significance, the collector in me naturally contacted him, and snatched it up as soon as possible ~ yes, I have secured a copy of that avatar, seen in countless blogs and screenshots!

Would I wear it to formal gatherings? Display it prominently on the green, as a statue on my estate?

None of that would be appropriate, for its true symbolism relates to the continent of Zindra.

Should anyone ever wish to create a statue with it, or perform a dedication, I am keeping this avatar for future generations.

So they too could look upon it and reflect upon what it meant, to be a member in that august gathering when the new continent launched.

If anyone wants a copy, let me know.


NeoVictorian Historical Society of the Main Grid, Special Collections and Curiosities Division,

Des

Micha Sass

This article and thread has provoked much second thought..ty Prokofy. I have learned today that pedophile is not necessarily an action, but merely 'love for children'. So age-players in SL who adopt sexual roles with depictions of children are in fact pedophiles. Actual RL sexual actions with children is pederasty. I was not educated enough, I had confused pedophilia with pederasty.

Micha Sass

So, In my conclusion, its more than important to notify the authorities when a person you know is engaging in sexual fantasy about children.
I dislike the concept of 'thought police' and censorship. I also dislike entrapment (ie allowing child avs into the adult mainland, in order to catch pedophiles), honey pots and the like. But I also fear of what happens when a behaviour is driven underground. This is a reet can-o-worms. Also, some age-play is non sexual and appropriate to the age being role-playes. Any kid av who is INSIDE a sex area, is not acting appropriatly to the age-play. I am not sure about Mariannes visit to the opening, but sure if She returns to the adult regions, she is creating a situation that is innapropriate. Any how, I think the adult male avs who approach kid avs for sex are the real dangerous bastards.

Echo Hermit

Just a little thought. What will LL do about those certain places in Second Life like Giggles Beach at Tera Verde SIM? It won't go over to Zindra SIM obviously, because its run as a PG kids beach, but if anyone should go there and take a random peep at any hour of the day, more often than not you will see sexual content mixed in with the kiddies, either in the form of 'prostitots' or teen-looking females with Escort Groups listed on their profile, or Adult males with very obvious intentions indicated by the Groups they are in. Of course the 'clever' ones realise to hide all their groups and make their profiles look as cherry pie pure as possible. And maybe - just maybe - there are a small number of child avatars and indeed adult avatars who go there just for PG play and mutual chat.

Will all the 'naturist' beaches, where all avatars no matter what shape, size, all-welcome (except Goreans) be shipped off to Zindra also? Again, nudity, not a problem, naturism, are not a problem, but it is all about perception and context. A kid avatar with, for instance, a group listed such as 'Cumslut Schoolgirls' certainly gives out a message loud and clear doesn't it, of what type of roleplay she/it is into.

Currently LL and the residents who practice pedophilia know (or believe) they are above the law. The internet seeming to be anonymous and providing a platform for their sickest of fantasies.

But I am definitely shouting out loud to all who will listen, via letters and enquiries to my own country's police, and have been told it is a matter to be looked into. I have to trust that they speak the truth to me, and meantime will continue putting in Abuse Reports in the hope that LL will realise the serious real life implications there are mixing children with adult themes.

The Adult Continent will certainly bring about changes in internet laws a lot sooner if child avatars are seen there. Maybe this is Lindens intention.

Yumi Murakami

Ugh. I'm really sad to see this, because of what it says about the Lindens' policy.

I - like Prok and like several others - assumed that Zindra/Ursula was going to be a sort of haven for adult role-players, where they could walk down city streets with people on leashes or tie people naked to telegraph poles if they wanted to. Now, it turns out that they can't, because a child can walk down that street.

Arguments about real life cities are irrelevant. Yes, it's not illegal for a child to walk down the street in Soho, but if a journalist snaps a photo of a child watching two adults making out on a bench, they don't threaten to close London.

What it instead appears to be is that Zindra is the new "regular grid", and the existing grid will become the superclean one. Which is ridiculous, because it means that Zindra will have all the same problems the existing regular grid does, including underage users forcing their way in because "it's where everyone is".

Kyrah Abattoir

HELLO PROKOFY

I have a single and simple question set for you:

-In which ways is this affecting you?
-Why do you care?
-What is your problem with Child avatars, beside a personal disdain for it?

Bluegum Lunasea

I would like to answer Kyrah but it is important to note that I am not talking about the human controlling the avatar - I am talking abou the actual avatar and what it represents.

1. I find the sight of child avatars in the presence of sexual content to be offensive. So does the majority of residents in SL.

Also, the TOS specifically forbids anything sexual being made, or said, or performed "near" child avatars.

I do NOT WANT to have to be constantly looking out for the possibility that a someone may take a picture that includes my avatar near a child avatar near something sexual.

Imagine this, Kyrah is standing near a sign proclaiming "Prokofy's House of Sexual Perversions" and a child avatar walks by. Click--whirrrrr. A photo is taken showing the SL interface (so Kyrah's name is clearly visible), and then posted on the front page of some scandal sheet newspaper and Kyrah is banned from SL for sexual-ageplay.


2. I care because I find the sight of child avatars in the presence of sexual content to be offensive.

I care because I do not want to be accused of breaching the TOS.

3. Child avatars have a place in SL. But that place is far from anything sexual.

Again I repeat - It is important to note that I am not talking about the human controlling the avatar - I am talking abou the actual avatar and what it represents.

When it comes to sexual content there is a big difference between an adult avatar, a child avatar and even a non-human avatar such as a (four legged dog). When it comes to sex these avatars are NOT the same.

Everest Piek

well, to say it frankly:
I as a Child in SL have been to more so called ADULT sims in the last half year than I would have liked to.
*lol*
Before you scream now"YAY, just another age player!", I would give you this thought: Since November 2008 i have been working as the customers service and customisation manager for a rather big motors company in SL (see my profile) as well as for the biggest french radio staton inworld.
Maybe it's the way i have been raised, but I think you should think about some Bigotry that was posted here. On one hand you guys shout at all those "perverted" behaviours. And as we are celebrating the exclusion of pixelsex from most of our sims, you guys are getting p**ed at because we SL-Children are celebrating it too, because you would have an enemy less.
Well, well...
And no, ichabod, we aren't keen to go there. As well as I don't think Marianne was keen to go there to see a huge prim penis there - whoever got that idea should be really thinking about some remedial lessons in behaviour.
And another thought to those screaming for a ban of kid avatars from SL(TM):
Think about a SL without them! Not 2(!)% of them are into the ageplay stuff and a huge hole would be ripped into the SL-Economy not because the majority of Kid Avatars does OWN a business, but are buying things contrary to many "grownups" who are only after their freebies.

"A great man is always willing to be little."
~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

Kpick

The thing to do is to paste a picture on an email (don't attach it because they won't accept emails with attachment)and send a picture of Marianne and the dancing penis to: askDOJ@usdoj.gov.

Ask them if they think it's child porn and that you found it in Second Life.

Katrina Tandino

Ok...first off it was an open invitation for ALL verified residents to go visit Zindra. With verification, you are verifying RL age, not avatar size. Second, there was no sexual content there until someone put it there. So, blame the adult who whipped it out, not the invited kid avi.

Second...this is just simple prejudice against certain sized pixels and a reason to continue your personal conflict with LL.

Third...the reason the adult material has to be in seclusion is not because of child avatars. It is because busybody, moralistic, Bible thumping, hypocrites have nothing better to do with their pathetic lives than to sit on the computer and point fingers while seeking out the sins of SL.

So...GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSES BEFORE SOMEONE SLAPS THE RUMP OF IT AND IT SENDS YOU LANDING ON YOUR ASSES!

Prokofy Neva

It's not bigotry to be creeped out by a child avatar since child avatars are a marker for a very widespread form of *formerly* tolerated behaviour involving what is *now* recognized as unlawful behaviour.

It's not bigotry to be creeped out by child avatars when now we see that SL's foremost "leader" of this lobby and campaigner for its rights has exercised the poor judgement to undermine her cause by demanding petulantly and insolently the right to play on the adult continent and move the goal posts.

It's not bigotry to see this behaviour as reprehensible, using the child avatar as as weapon to make people feel uncomfortable, bullied, and harassed -- for no reason other than that they just think -- naturally and properly -- child avatars are creepy for all the reasons I've outlined.

A prejudice against certain-sized pixels? Hardly -- rather a condemnation of certain pint-sized but pernicious cynicism and nihilism.

Micha Sass

With this response and your next blog post you show off your true self. A rabid dog snarling and baring teeth. I thought you were hoping to protect RL children from danger. But no, you were just trying to get ANOTHER THING THAT YOU DISLIKE BANNED. Sure, report pedophiles (if you have good evidence). Sure warn people of the dangers of predatory adults.
But no..you just want some more flesh to eat. Chomp on the bones. Prokofy doesnt like kids, but she CAN eat a whole one.

ichabod Antfarm

34/f
Law student
Proud parent
....that's all you need to know

LOL, no fucking kidding.

Karen

I have wondered too why children avatars are in adult sims. Here is something I saw on Flicker that I found alarming.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34305715@N05/3193581161/in/photostream/

This sim promotes rape. Why are there naked children in the streets with naked adults?

Tommy Two Time

Glad to hear there are people out there policing everyone's fantasy lives.

ichabod Antfarm

Nobody really cares about your fantasy life. It's about criminal action. It's fun to think there is no connection but, at the end of the day, it's only "fun" to "think" that. Actual thinking is actually painful; it makes you think.

Does one thing lead to another? I dunno, do you? Do you REALLY know? Is it wrong to ask questions? Why condemn those who do? Prokofy might be utterly fucking full of shit but Prokofy has the GUTS to ask the uncomfortable questions.

His knee-jerk detractors are just cowards (when they aren't just sorta kinda dumb.)

Casey

Who gives a shit if it's engaging in sexual activity or not? What's the point in punshing two consenting adults who feel they need to role-play a different age while they masturbate?

Yes, I know it's against the ToS, but people aren't flapping their arms about because of that detail, it's a more personal level.

Sure, people feel that certain crap is 'creepy' or 'disturbing', but everyone feels that for virtually everything. That's why you have groups, or places, or even restrictions like 'PG/Mature/Adult' to help filter this stuff out so you're less likely to fall into something that bursts your bubble.

But anyway, talk about missing the target, sure it's illegal if it was real, so would murder, stealing, destruction of property, but we do that in virtual environments everywhere and it's accepted as the 'norm'.

Not that I really care too much about this issue, but I wish people would use that grey mass between their ears for critical thinking. I don't like (In a sexual manner) BDSM, Scat, Furries, Ageplay etc, and I joke about them a lot of the time, but I sure as hell don't go out of my way to revoke their way of life because I don't like it.


Yes, I'm in a state of anger, how can I not be when moronic stuff like this becomes the social norm. It's not far removed from gay-bashing.

Talis

I think SL doesn't need child avatars. Especially with age verification. But it's impossible to forbid, nothing easier than shrinking your avatar...Guess that'll become a neverending circle, I myself think that we in SL are all Adults and should act and look like such. Playing happy family with kids is freaking me out a bit honestly, but if it's really necessary, you can still do that at your rented home (only). The idea of adults running around in child avatars on mature sims without having idea of what and why they're there is just creeping the beejebus out of me.

Hellraser

Giggles Beach supports and encourages sex ageplay with kids, RL and SL, and if the LL keep them in Second Life is because the Lindens are pedophilies in real life too.

damienbewulf

You all are morons.
First of all ageplay refers to Roleplaying a character that is of the age of a minor. So sexual RP or not all child av's engage in ageplay
Second to criminalize ageplay as SL seems to have done, then shouldn't they also make it ilgal to have combat sims, add adultry laws to av's who have a partner and other such ilk? oh thats right your own imorality doesn't matter... fucking idiots

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