Conversation with Profound Consequences for Resident IP and Work in SL

Wow. I haven't fully grasped all the awfulness of this meeting myself, but I think it will speak generally for itself.

Just in case it doesn't, let me concentrate your mind wonderfully -- to fast-forward through the long transcript. Lord of the Flies stuff, smug, smarmy superior stuff about who gets to decide things in virtual worlds. The tyranny of the rich. The tyranny of the sycophantic. The tyranny of who shows up. The Feted Inner Core lol. The conversation, to compress it, goes like this:

"This isn't 2006. It's 2009". "We like being decorations to the Lindens." "We fear the Lindens and the Lindens' lawyers and concede their notion that they can't have resident content on infohubs. We don't care if this has implications for the rest of SL." "We're rich, and we don't need to sell hair or clothes." "We are lawyers in real life and know better what IP issues are at stake." "The Lindens can do what they want, it's their game, their ball." "We will trot along loyally with the Lindens and cooperate with them in their themed managed communities." "Whoever shows up to a meeting should get to decide for all landowners because we show up." "We work hard and we get to do this." "Everybody else missed the meeting, too bad for them." "People will disagree about where the public infohub should go, but we should decide on it based on our own small group's best interests, oh, and where Carl can put his infohub". "We are all building here, and only one person, Prokofy, is tearing down." "We know best, because we showed up." "We don't care if resident IP is at stake because either we don't sell it, we are rich and don't need to sell it, or we sell it but on private sims where we have contractual lawyer-blessed relationships with the Lindens, thank you very much -- and fuck you."

Maybe the people who firebombed Nautilus when it opened were right. I continue to believe in peaceful protest, however. Let me recap the story, for those of you watching at home:

1. Some of the residents of Nautilus, which is a Linden-made and essentially Linden-managed, gathered to discuss having a Linden-sponsored infohub put in their continent on Linden land, which would mean that the newbies would be sent to this hub, as to other hubs.

2. I came to raise the larger issues of the entire festering infohub system which currently suffers terribly from overload and refusal of the Lindens to load-balance, and from griefing and pornography. The Lindens in somewhat dilatory fashion seem to be vaguely planning to do something about all this, which they've let fester for years and years, but it's not clear what. I raised the continued need to load-balance, and the continued need to find some fair way to enable residents to take a vested interested in these Linden-owned mainland hubs by having them contribute content, but also have some of the powers over the land to help control griefing.

3. A more timid group of Nautilus citizens wanting to just go along to get along with the Lindens, and wanting to just capitulate to them in advance, are happy merely to ask the Lindens at least to put their hub (*their* hub) in some place that doesn't overwhelm local businesses and residences with too many newbies, a good chunk of whom will be griefers and/or porn stars.

4. Linden attention has obviously wandered to Zindra, which collectively will provide more tier to LL than any land around their existing  controlled communities of Bay City or Nautilus, or, remember Shermerhorn, Brown, and the resident-developed infohubs like Ross and Calletta and Bear?

5. Linden sycophants and at least two residents willing to pre-determine on the Lindens' behalf what lawyered-up response LL *might* have to all this, surprisingly Carl Metropolitan, and not surprisingly, TexasKat76, are saying that the Lindens will no longer allow resident content in Linden infohubs because that creates "legal problems". It ostensibly creates legal problems of labour and legal problems of intellectual property, as the Lindens would be allowing volunteers to build public builds and service them but without any "contractual relationship".

6. Asked why Community Gateways, which has plenty of resident build and labour and a healthy newbie stream, would be different than resident-made hubs on the mainland, Carl unhelpfully implied that it was because CG enters into a contractual relationship with the Lindens, as a private company to another private company, and these issues then don't arrise --  ostensibly. I point out that just because of one program on private islands, that need not undermine de-facto legal precedent on other mainland sims. More to the point, we have no evidence the Lindens are lawyering up and insisting on this very tendentious and restrictive notion of how they ought to behave with resident communities making content. For example, I could acidly point out that putting Carl's NCI hubs on this new Linden-controlled Nautilus hub would open up exactly the same issue -- unless, of course, like InfoNET did in its day, Carl signs a deal with the Lindens.

7. I hope some of you brighter students of the Linden Lab Experiment can see the larger implications of this: if resident content and resident volunteer labour are not acceptable on Governor Linden owned infohubs, or any Linden Land designated as such due to ostensibly lawyerist and legalist "IP and labour" issues then....what about the entirety of SL itself? Well, indeed?! Is the entirety of the UGC liberalization in SL now in a sense in jeopardy so that Desmond can have a welcome area? So that Bay City can have a windfall?So that Carl can expand his benign empire? If you think this is just "Prokofy's issue" -- think again. Anything that undermines the right of way of resident content on Linden-owned land undermines resident-generated content on the entire grid. And I'd like to remind us that it is sycophantic and gun-shy residents invoking this terror -- not smug Lindens. At least not yet.

8. Don't forget we have Lum Lumley, as he is known in SL, to enlighten us about all this legacy concern about labour (and by extention, IP). It is true there is a fandango with Mole labour. It sounds completely specious to me, as an independent contractor who works across state and international boundaries, via the Internet, constantly. It sounds like bogus over-cautious bullshit by people who are too lazy to defy specious legal interpretations. After all, Mole's aren't volunteers. After all, the agreement to operate resident hubs came out of an option presented by Linden Lab employees to do one of two things: a) take a settlement payment b) remain onthe land and help redevelop the infohub. It sounds to me like the Lindens are overcompensating out of fear of threatened or actual litigation which they've now been burned on a few times -- but then, I haven't heard this from *them*, I'm hearing it from various craven residents who like to keep 2 steps ahead of the Lindens by predicting what they might do and crouching into position for it.

9. All in all, I find this a sorry spectacle. I don't want some separate meeting with Blondin Linden, who is a cipher and who never answers any of my cards or IMs or anything about these issues. I think those who care about resident-developed infohubs past, present, and future, and indeed all resident content on the grid have to have meetings with Jack and ideally M Linden. They need to stop the tap-dancing on this, stop ruining the newbie experiencing, stop the load disbalance, and stop the general cloud of obfuscation around this which so far, has helped Desmond and Carl, but hindered the broader cause. And once again, since Desmond has been such a fucktard in misreporting my interest in this (apparently out of his own weird political and business interests):

o I have only lost money, not made money by having a group set on the Linden hub of Ross and commissioning a build there -- both I and the builder have spent probably hundreds of hours of volunteer time way, way WAY beyond anything paid either of us, in either building fees or rents. As for the Moth Temple infohub, that's built on our group land that a number of people help tier and work on -- it's merely next to a Linden hub. It was purchased on the auction.

o rents on a PG sim next to the Linden hub, or donation jars even on an M sim with a resident hub do not cover that sim's tier without extraordinary circumstances; even an infohub doesn't bring that. Even at the height of traffic, one couldn't expect this. Time and again, I've measured how it works and found there are three distinct groups of people using this sim of Ross, without virtually any overlap: 1) newbies sent by the Linden system who land, socialize, get orientation, and *might* shop or at least browse in the shops I rent nearby for low rents -- it's mainly $10 newbie stuff for sale but more often than not freebies and additional help like NCI 2) people who come to rent my newbies houses come through search, and are not the people coming to the infohubs, they are somewhat older; 3) the people coming to the money trees mainly do not come from the infohub or from my rentals, but from search for money trees; a trickle of their cash *might* go to a t-shirt business or a low-cost newbies store -- but generally, the store traffic comes from *repeat visitors or new visitors who are not newbies*. Net effect? Right now -- break even or even *loss*.

But of course, Desmond would know all this if the patterns of SL played out on CG like they do everywhere else, but this is likely a proprietary secret he won't tell.

o infohubs are long-term civic projects that business should care about just as overall the project of  helping newbies adjust and becoming long-term productive residents is a good one for the whole community and economy.

So I leave you with this community transcript that once again tells the sick story of Second Life probably better than I could if I wrote another 10,000 words.

Oh, buy my Nautilus lamp on XStreet.

[13:05]  Blondin Linden: Anythign we can do to make it easier on them would be great
[13:05]  Jean Swashbuckler: hiya Prok
[13:05]  Blondin Linden: Hi Prok
[13:05]  Prokofy Neva: hi
[13:05]  TexasKat76 Broome: Ah, is it a simple switch to convert a homestead siem to a full sime?
[13:05]  TexasKat76 Broome: HI Prok
[13:05]  Cynebald Ceawlin: good question, Kat -- I was concerned about that
[13:05]  TexasKat76 Broome: if I could spell
[13:05]  Blondin Linden: A hub would get created faster of the build was already built
[13:05]  Blondin Linden: Thats an idea. I'm not sure but def something to look into
[13:06]  Jean Swashbuckler: hiya Blue
[13:06]  BlueGin Yifu: hey all
[13:06]  TexasKat76 Broome: We can't use builds that are on existing full sims, like the palace
[13:06]  Nimue Jewell: Are there any mole builds that are in a sim all by themselves?
[13:06]  Blondin Linden: The Dolphin Temple is a homestead yes?
[13:06]  TexasKat76 Broome: could we?
[13:06]  TexasKat76 Broome: yes
[13:06]  Autumn Heyse: can i vote for it to go right where that awful skyscraper is on the citidel wall?
[13:06]  Autumn Heyse: ill help with the bulldozing
[13:06]  Marsha Warwillow: Would there be buffer area around it? Sometimes the info hubs cause distress on residential areas, like this area is mixed
[13:06]  BlueGin Yifu: the mole boring tank would be a wonderful, central location.
[13:07]  TexasKat76 Broome: The Dolphin Temple is on a homestead
[13:07]  Blondin Linden: Marsha, funny you should mention that. Bay city is suffering from just that
[13:07]  Jean Swashbuckler: Blue, that's one we hadn't thought of and is a homestead that could be upgraded
[13:07]  Jean Swashbuckler: Welcome Carl
[13:07]  TexasKat76 Broome: Hello Carl
[13:07]  Blondin Linden: Residents of the docklands are upset due to the overflow from Hau Koda
[13:07]  BlueGin Yifu: I vote for Mysehi being the Info Hub. ....... where Nautilus started with the mole boring tank.
[13:07]  Carl Metropolitan: Hello
[13:07]  Autumn Heyse: hey carl, long time
[13:07]  Prokofy Neva: Blondin I have some issues to raise on this about the entire system of infohubs. As you know, I've been raising for years the problem of load disbalance among the hubs and the huge problem recently where the overwhelming majority of newbies are piling up on Moosehead Beach and then being turned away as the sim is filled. This is a function of the use of a "randomizer" instead of a "serializer" script in the Help Island selection option as I've mentioned many times. So I wonder if you plan to address the disbalance question, and if what is really happening is that you are deliberately siphoning off the newbie flow only to your Linden controlled communities of Bay City and Nautilus and shorting the other hubs or dividing the traffic between Linden-controlled communities and Gateways. Because all you have to do is open up the "search/places/infohub" to see the traffic for these locations for the last weeks and see that *is* what is happening.
[13:07]  TexasKat76 Broome: Blue is that the build out in the ocean?
[13:08]  Nimue Jewell: What is the mole boring tank?
[13:08]  Wellington Beam: one big thing to consider with the infohub is the impact it will have on whatever sim it's next to. Bay City Docklands may be an extreme example but the traffic levels there can make it very laggy. i think it would be great to have one here but the location needs to be carefully considered
[13:08]  Marsha Warwillow: I think one of the strong appeals of Nautilus is it is reltively "quiet" - there's activity but there's a lot of residential here, the hub should be sensitive to that
[13:08]  Prokofy Neva: I could also point out that somebody somewhere made the executive decision to remove the icon "infohub" from the map view. So that means there are no longer "infohubs" as destinations on the map, like "events" or "land for sale" so I wonder if you plan to rectify that.
[13:09]  Blondin Linden: Prok, we're looking into the load balance issue. And I would love to be able to pick your brain about the hubs but thats a complicated issue that my compter battery can't handle atm. Maybe we can set up some time this week and we can talk about it?
[13:09]  Cynebald Ceawlin: @Marsha -- good point. I like the idea of an info hub, but not having a negative impact on Nautilus is def. something to think about
[13:09]  Jean Swashbuckler: for everyone...Blondin's battery has bout 15 mins left or less
[13:10]  Autumn Heyse: the icon is in snowglobe
[13:10]  Blondin Linden: Weelington, your so right. We should try and find the best place and then make sure to reach out those who live in and around those regions
[13:10]  Wellington Beam: no mains power?
[13:10]  BlueGin Yifu: The mole tank is on the north side of the canal about half way along the canal.
[13:10]  Jean Swashbuckler: hiya Preator
[13:10]  Prokofy Neva: Blondin, your brain *has* to deal with it *now* because there is no sense in adding in another favoured, overloaded hub called "Nautilus" and punishing newbies who try to land on it, which is what happens with Moosehead. It MUST be dealt with, it is a key reason why you lose people. Also, I view the entire construction of the Linden hubs, unannounced, after our meeting of the Resident Infohub Developers, without telling us, as a profound violation of good faith.
[13:10]  Jean Swashbuckler: hiya Ericc
[13:10]  Ericc Carter: hiii
[13:10]  TexasKat76 Broome: Ah, I thought it might be that one. I think it may be "Too" central
[13:10]  Marsha Warwillow: It is just a thought, but a more waterbased hub location might be better - and at one of the ends of the land mass
[13:11]  Wellington Beam: you mean in the Blake Sea?
[13:11]  Carl Metropolitan: Prokofy is right. The infohub overloading causes some new people to leave and never come back. I've enountered that complaint a lot when I read accounts of people who have come to and not stayed in SL on the web.
[13:11]  Marsha Warwillow: Yeah, also they have a lot of activities too it seems from the notices - it could be a more shared kinf of thing
[13:11]  Nimue Jewell: I wonered about a new sim off in the water too, but if someone bought water view land, will they want to look at a hub now?
[13:11]  TexasKat76 Broome: Hello Praetor
[13:11]  Prokofy Neva: As for setting up some separate meeting with me, that doesn't make sense, set up a meeting with a group of people who care about infohubs, work in or around them, and try to help newbies in them, thee are at least a dozen, and right now you have mainland infohubs pitted against Community Gateway, and you have load disbalance, and this is evidence of either Linden strategic action, or Linden strategic negligence and must be dealt with.
[13:11]  Carl Metropolitan: Overloading and assholes there.
[13:12]  Marsha Warwillow: True Nimue
[13:12]  Praetor Janus: Greetings
[13:12]  Prokofy Neva: Yes it is absolutely unfair to new members of SL to create another unpoliced grief pit.
[13:12]  Marsha Warwillow: To be honest I kind of don't want an info hub lol
[13:12]  Carl Metropolitan: I've also heard similar sentiments from people who did find NCI that they were almost ready to leave when they thought the infohub experience was "it" for SL
[13:12]  Jean Swashbuckler: which is why we need an NCI node with the hub
[13:12]  Prokofy Neva: Are you or are you not going to police the infohubs? Are you or are you not going to authorize community gruops to have ban powers (a hugely controversial issue I'll be the first to admit)? Are you or are you not going to have a coherent new user experience plan integrated with existing and future hubs?
[13:12]  TexasKat76 Broome: Nim and Marsha....I think that's exactly why someone thought of the Dolphin Temple... at the end of nautilus, not on a residential sim
[13:12]  Carl Metropolitan: I would love to place one.
[13:13]  Marsha Warwillow: Ok Texas, that's good idea
[13:13]  Jean Swashbuckler: the hub will be a good way to continue to promote Nautilus City...we would just need to learn how to help manage it and that means some of us will need to be there to help with the handholding
[13:13]  Carl Metropolitan: But we have to find and buy/lease land near them. And that's not possible at some of the LL InfoHubs.
[13:13]  Nimue Jewell: Yeah, that is a good idea since there is a build there.
[13:13]  Jean Swashbuckler: thanks blue
[13:14]  BlueGin Yifu gave you Snapshot : The Canal, Nautilus - Mysehi (123, 20, 36).
[13:14]  Carl Metropolitan: It depends on the location and the availbility of land. And--of course--when a Hub goes in, land prices shoot up.
[13:14]  TexasKat76 Broome: Are there any other places we can think of (maybe the Offshore drilling platform?) that are already built that might meet the need
[13:14]  Marsha Warwillow: Oh yes the platform!
[13:14]  Marsha Warwillow: That's good but like Nimue said would block the view of that very nice coastline residential
[13:14]  Blondin Linden: having it offshore is an option as well
[13:14]  Jean Swashbuckler: thanks Carl...we totally understand and appeciate what NCI needs and what we need to do help bring a node here
[13:15]  Prokofy Neva: Carl, are you expanding? Oxbridge and Gateway not enough for you?
[13:15]  TexasKat76 Broome: We've discussed the need for an NCI hub here in previous meetings, Prok
[13:15]  Carl Metropolitan: We are always looking to put InfoNodes (like the one near Ross) adjacent to any LL Welcome Area or InfoHub. It just depends on the availablity of land.
[13:17]  Prokofy Neva: That's great, but we do need to hear what the policy is now for all infohubs and the use of some resident content in them and not others. NCI seems like an obvious good group to put its content into an infohub. But why not others? This can have unintended backlashes. NCI seems obvious, but then, why give them tier-free advertising when you already give them Gateway ? I mean, at what point should you in fact think of something more fair, which is having an open competition for contractors to assist in infohubs, either for profit or non profit? Instead of these constant insider giveaways.
[13:17]  Carl Metropolitan: We are also okay with putting them in other high-traffic areas that attract newbies.
[13:17]  Jean Swashbuckler: ok, Let's stay focused...the question is providing Blondin some feedback...and based on prior discussions, we want to have an NCI node with the hub
[13:17]  Carl Metropolitan: Prokofy--LL does not put us in InfoNodes. We rent/buy/scrounge the land for our infonodes on the open market.
[13:17]  TexasKat76 Broome: The InfoHub here wouldn't need a new build, that's kind of the reason we'd been talking about using an existing build. Not to change the landscape or the view
[13:17]  Blondin Linden: Its not tier free Prok
[13:17]  Carl Metropolitan: We pay tier or rent on them.
[13:17]  Ericc Carter: I like BlueGin's suggestion, also consider Nautilus Sicorathi
[13:18]  Nimue Jewell: What is there?
[13:18]  Autumn Heyse: Sicorathi is my vote too
[13:18]  Jean Swashbuckler: Thanks Ericc, good suggestions
[13:18]  Prokofy Neva: Um, Jean, I think what you mean to say when you say "let's stay focused" is the usual "let's go along to get along" with the Lindens. There are overarching policy issues that have to be addressed to, and all we get so far on this is that Blondin says he doesn't have brain battery power for these really severe issues. And if you don't get what I'm talking about NOW, open up your hub in Nautilus, try to work in it, as I have been doing in hubs for year,s and then we will talk.
[13:18]  Carl Metropolitan: Or have the land donated by private residents.
[13:18]  Ericc Carter: west of the harbor
[13:18]  Wellington Beam: or Symacom
[13:18]  Wellington Beam: in the east
[13:18]  Ericc Carter: just west of Nautilus - Shalim
[13:18]  Jean Swashbuckler: No Prok, I said exactly what I meant to say
[13:18]  Wellington Beam: or Byth
[13:18]  Nimue Jewell: oh
[13:18]  Nimue Jewell: I'll have to go look, is anything else in the sim?
[13:18]  Blondin Linden: There are policy issues to talk about Prok and I'm more than happy to talk with yo about them, but this is not the time.
[13:19]  Autumn Heyse: Sicorathi was the first sim i visited when nautilus opened, also when i spoke with others that was the sim they went to as well
[13:19]  TexasKat76 Broome: NO residential sims...... it would prevent residents from accessing their property
[13:19]  Prokofy Neva: It is not "me" who needs talking about them, Blondin, these issues pertain to all infohubs all over in which residents help.
[13:19]  Jean Swashbuckler: some of us have worked diligently for months and everyone has been invited to the meetings...I can't help it personally if people choose not to participate
[13:19]  Nimue Jewell: agreed.
[13:19]  Marsha Warwillow: Agreed with texas and Nimue
[13:19]  BlueGin Yifu: you definitely want the info hub in a sim by itself.
[13:20]  Jean Swashbuckler: thanks Blue
[13:20]  Nimue Jewell: yeah, that was my biggest concern, that it wouldn;t be in its own sim.
[13:20]  Cynebald Ceawlin: exactly, Nim
[13:20]  TexasKat76 Broome: I think the whole discussion about the philosophy and global impact of infohubs could best be addressed at Blondin's office hours.
[13:20]  Marsha Warwillow: I would prefer it on the ends of the land mass, I do not want it in the middle I just think that's invasive
[13:20]  Jean Swashbuckler: agree with Texas
[13:20]  Blondin Linden: Ok, My battery is going to die so I need to jet. I sense some general pushback on the hub idea but I think if its away from residential areas that people might be ok with it.
[13:20]  Blondin Linden: yes?
[13:20]  Autumn Heyse: i think its own sim goes without question, most the time they are filled and people would not be able to get in their own property
[13:20]  Autumn Heyse: thats the least of the issues at hand
[13:20]  Wellington Beam: yes we need to concentrate on Nautilus issues
[13:20]  Jean Swashbuckler: Blondin, the only pushback is Prok
[13:20]  Cynebald Ceawlin: I'm in that camp, Blondin
[13:21]  Nimue Jewell: I agree that I would prefer it on an end, not the middle, but that is just mu opnion
[13:21]  Prokofy Neva: No, Jean, that's not true. Carl has the same concerns -- dozens of other people have the same concerns.
[13:21]  TexasKat76 Broome: Thanks Blondin. We'll put together a brief list of potential locations for you
[13:21]  Cynebald Ceawlin: (i.e. fine w/ info hub, as long as it's on it's own sim)
[13:21]  Autumn Heyse: I agree with Jean, those of us whove been here at every meeting every week are the ones asking for this and we should be the squeekiest wheels
[13:21]  Blondin Linden: Ok, so what we need to do s find a place that the majority of people think is acceptable. I'm think somewhere between NC and the Blake sea, maybe some sort of off shore thing
[13:21]  Prokofy Neva: You will "get it" after you work in an infohub and face these concerns yourself. You feel you have worked diligently for a few months and "need to focus"? I have worked diligently for 4 years and "need to focus" too.
[13:22]  Marsha Warwillow: Thanks Blondin
[13:22]  TexasKat76 Broome: Prok, that is a systemic issue.... not something we can handle here
[13:22]  Jean Swashbuckler: thanks Prok, on that we can agree, you are focused :)
[13:22]  Prokofy Neva: Well, how about whatever is closest to somebody else's rentals, since I sold my land in Shalim lol. How about closer to MarkTwain's?
[13:22]  TexasKat76 Broome: Excuse me?
[13:23]  Prokofy Neva: TexasKat, by going along to get along with the Lindens on this one highly managed community where you don't even have the right to put a plant or a notecard giver on the Linden land, which is at least something resident infohub developers have achived, you are not realizing that you are merely abetting the Lindens in this further dysfunction, you are helping them to continue to mess up the new user experience.
[13:23]  TexasKat76 Broome: Plllllleeeeese...
[13:23]  Prokofy Neva: I fyou play along with this managed stuff, at least get the right to put your prims in the infohubs. Then get the right to ban miscreants.
[13:24]  Jean Swashbuckler: OK, back to reality...
[13:24]  Ericc Carter: lol
[13:24]  Carl Metropolitan: I just want to point out--that if you want an NCI InfoNode near a future LL InfoHub in Nautilus--that we can't build on on LL land. So if LL puts their hub on an island in the ocean that's not connected to the Nautilus City "mainland", we don't have a place to go.
[13:24]  Jean Swashbuckler: Carl, what are the key elements we need to consider...ahh
[13:24]  Blondin Linden: I have to jet. Send your suggestions for hub locations to Jean! And prok, I would love to meet with you and talk Hubs. I've read your blogs about them and would love to hear your thoughts in person.
[13:24]  Jean Swashbuckler: you are starting to address this...
[13:24]  Blondin Linden: ttyl!
[13:25]  BlueGin Yifu: there is truth in what Prok is saying....... Info Hub's bring out some real jerks and lowlifes. But they also increase traffic.
[13:25]  Jean Swashbuckler: what r the things we need to keep in mind for an NCI node next to a hub?
[13:25]  Nimue Jewell: Carl, I think that makes the Dolphin Temple look like a good choice. Have you seen that part of the city? Any thoughts on that location?
[13:25]  Prokofy Neva: Please nothing, i will not sit idly by while the Lindens build one more big infohub like Moosehead Beach, which they built to flog Bay City, and watch them then flog their controlled community of Nautilus, and overload two sims now instead of one, just to get their own managed communities exposure, shafting the rest, and thenultimately shafting newbies who can't even land on the sims. That's what this is about, Jean. Don't pretend otherwise. That IS the reality. Ask Carl. He knows how it works.
[13:25]  Wellington Beam: availability of suitably priced land
[13:25]  TexasKat76 Broome: Yes, they do... and there needs to be some governance allowances, but it's not exculusive to Nautilus
[13:25]  Carl Metropolitan: We just need to be able to to buy/rent/have donaed 1024m2 or so.
[13:25]  Autumn Heyse: Carl, how much land/prims do you need minimum?
[13:26]  Autumn Heyse: so a double prim 1024 would work fine
[13:26]  Autumn Heyse: there is one set up right in Sicorathi
[13:26]  Carl Metropolitan: A double prim 512 would work.
[13:26]  Wellington Beam: the moment the location is known people will buy land near it and prices will go up
[13:26]  Carl Metropolitan: 234 prims is fine
[13:26]  Wellington Beam: Nautilus only has 1024s
[13:26]  Autumn Heyse: look at the map and youll see there is a perfect parcel there, the lindens would just need to clear it for use
[13:26]  Jean Swashbuckler: understood Wellington
[13:26]  Carl Metropolitan: That's always been an issue building nodes.
[13:26]  Jean Swashbuckler: there are 90 parcels for sale today
[13:26]  Prokofy Neva: that's why it has to be on its own sim, and preferably near existing Linden builds, so it doesn't become yet another racket.
[13:26]  Carl Metropolitan: Well--the thing is--LL doesn't help us place InfoNodes
[13:26]  Jean Swashbuckler: other wills open up...we just need to be aware
[13:26]  TexasKat76 Broome: Yes, Prok, that's the plan
[13:26]  Carl Metropolitan: I know it may look like it, but we've gotten all the land for ours on the open market.
[13:27]  Wellington Beam: but if somebody already had land near it and was willing to share some of the space then renting might be another option
[13:27]  Prokofy Neva: and that's as it should be Carl, you shouldn't be getting set-asides.
[13:27]  Carl Metropolitan: So I'm skeptical if you all could get LL to "clear" anything for us.
[13:27]  Jean Swashbuckler: Carl, how close do you need to be to the hub..right next to it?
[13:27]  Carl Metropolitan: We are happy to rent
[13:27]  TexasKat76 Broome: how close? a TP or walking?
[13:28]  Carl Metropolitan: We prefer to be directly adjacent, but we can work with being within a clear line of sight on a low end machine (no more than 64 meters)
[13:28]  Wellington Beam: so it's easily visible from the infohub
[13:28]  TexasKat76 Broome: Thanks, that helps
[13:28]  Jean Swashbuckler: thanks...that helps us understand
[13:29]  Carl Metropolitan: Chartreuse/Mauve and Istar/Iris are examples of InfoNodes that are not adjacent, but can be seen from the InfoHub the are located near.
[13:29]  Jean Swashbuckler: so we need to look at existing homesteads that are near privately owned land
[13:30]  Jean Swashbuckler: ok, thanks for the examples Carl
[13:30]  Jean Swashbuckler: ideally, adjacent, if not within 64m line of site
[13:30]  Carl Metropolitan: If you all think it would be useful, I'd be happy to put an infonode here in Nautilus City even if LL doesn't put in an accessible InfoHub
[13:30]  Wellington Beam: homesteads?
[13:30]  Carl Metropolitan: If you think you have enough newbie traffic to justify it.
[13:30]  Jean Swashbuckler: Wellington, homesteads to be upconverted
[13:30]  Autumn Heyse: we dont really, its relatively quiet here
[13:31]  Wellington Beam: ah i see
[13:31]  TexasKat76 Broome: Currently, not enough traffic for it at this point
[13:31]  Prokofy Neva: Carl, if you have an infohub next to Iris, you, too, should care that the Lindens have ceased sending newbies there, in fact, we've found that some of the Help Island kiosks now simply leave out some of the landmarks, for Moosehead, do you realize that they now put the teleport/home URL already into the account? that's why there is such a pile-up. You really do have to start caring about this more than you are caring because you have Oxbridge.
[13:31]  Autumn Heyse: it will be as dead as NCI south without a node
[13:31]  Cynebald Ceawlin: Jean, has the lab agreed to upconvert a homestead?
[13:31]  Carl Metropolitan: I do care about it. I've talked to Blondin about the issue on several ocassions.
[13:31]  Jean Swashbuckler: Cyn, that is one of the ideas we discussed...
[13:31]  Wellington Beam: hey South is isn't deap :P
[13:31]  Wellington Beam: *dead
[13:31]  Jean Swashbuckler: especially with the Dolphin Temple
[13:31]  Carl Metropolitan: It's hard to get him currently because of his involvement with the Zindra transfers
[13:32]  Jean Swashbuckler: since it is an existing build and on a homestead
[13:32]  Prokofy Neva: Texas, when you talk about "not enough traffic," perhaps you aren't understanding the system. IF the Lindens put in an infohub here THEY WILL PUT TRAFFIC ON IT by sending newbies from Help Island here with landmarks, or even putting the URL automatically into new accounts.
[13:32]  Carl Metropolitan: NCI South is on the border of a LL Welcome area
[13:32]  Cynebald Ceawlin: Right Jean, I just didn't catch whether they would be willing to do it
[13:32]  Jean Swashbuckler: yes
[13:32]  Carl Metropolitan: And it is less busy than the Bay City Docklands InfoHub
[13:32]  Autumn Heyse: i honestly dont think the dolphin temple is the right area, the sim next to that will get very flooded due to the low land area there
[13:32]  Carl Metropolitan: It's an example of the load balancing problem Prokofy is talking about.
[13:32]  Carl Metropolitan: It is a real issue
[13:33]  TexasKat76 Broome: Thanks, Prok.... I was responding to his offer of a NCI hub WITHOUT any help from the Lindens
[13:33]  Jean Swashbuckler: Yes, Cyn...don't know if they are willing but Blondin will check on whether we can do that or not...especially if we use an exising build
[13:33]  Prokofy Neva: I'm glad you're validating that Carl. it is not "Prokofy's issue" or "a theory" and not "real" Jean. It is YOUR ISSUE in five minutes once you open a Linden-sponsored Linden-land infohub here to which they will send some flow of newbies, for good or bad.
[13:33]  Nimue Jewell: I see your point Autumn, but where ever we put it, the surrounded sims are going to get flooded. :(
[13:34]  Carl Metropolitan: Prokofy--I've talked to Blondin several times about it. I will continue to.
[13:34]  Cynebald Ceawlin: yeah, as I think about it -- I don't think I'd be too thrilled to have a hub go in in a sim right next to one I own land in
[13:34]  Jean Swashbuckler: Good point Autumn
[13:34]  Carl Metropolitan: I was hoping to talk to him about it today after the meeting but he had to go.
[13:34]  Prokofy Neva: You have to cope with griefing issues, you have to force the Lindens to have a plan for this. If they will not load balance or police, you will have a real liabliity, not shoppers, because newbies usually don't have money, but a high percentage of griefing.
[13:34]  Autumn Heyse: well if the surrounding sims are vacant its not an issue, look at Thuulech and Ysthyalm for example
[13:34]  Prokofy Neva: nobody can spell them such as to put them into a map list and go to them
[13:35]  Autumn Heyse: and as far as moles doing the build, well why do we have to have moles do it? we can build something themed and pass it off to one to place on the sim
[13:35]  Jean Swashbuckler: good point Autumn on the two sims
[13:35]  Prokofy Neva: that's the spirit Autumn, build it yourself and have more investment and care about it. It should not be given to Moles.
[13:35]  Wellington Beam: I think they'll only allow the Moles to do the building
[13:35]  Jean Swashbuckler: in terms of the build, I think there are legal issues why the Moles need to build
[13:36]  Carl Metropolitan: Is that the new rule? I know that the first round of InfoHubs were resident built?
[13:36]  Jean Swashbuckler: been there done that in another dot com
[13:36]  Autumn Heyse: i dont buy that about the moles, if they are out of cash and we want to buid it then why would they not want somethign like that free?
[13:36]  Carl Metropolitan: Why do you think they are out of cash?
[13:36]  Prokofy Neva: You should understand the bar is set high already by resident developed infohubs, of which there are 14, all on Linden land, all serving newbies and communities around them, all set to resident groups to develop, put builds, orientation, etc. The only thing is we don't have ban or plant perms. So don't go below that. There is no reason why the Lidnens cann't set this infohub to a Nautilus group for building and information.
[13:36]  Wellington Beam: well it's something to ask Blondin
[13:36]  Autumn Heyse: blondin said they are out of funding for moles come next quarter
[13:36]  Marsha Warwillow: Nautilus's commercial value is not in it's traffic but it's diversity in international residents, which especially is significant in Japanese. Having an info. hub will compromise privacy and perhaps be detrimental to the residential privacy aspects that have been marketed in the land sales here.
[13:36]  Carl Metropolitan: ah
[13:37]  Carl Metropolitan: an internal budget issue
[13:37]  Prokofy Neva: huh? Legal issues as to why the moles have to buidl? since when? that's bogus
[13:37]  Prokofy Neva: jean, that's just not true
[13:37]  Prokofy Neva: there are 14 resident developed hubs on Linden Land and have been for 3 years.
[13:37]  TexasKat76 Broome: Not if you understand the concept of Intellectual Property
[13:37]  Jean Swashbuckler: Blondin said they were tasked up for the next quarter..not out of dollars Autumn :)
[13:37]  TexasKat76 Broome: Busy.... not out of cash
[13:37]  Prokofy Neva: No, Texas, that's bullshit, there is absolutely no reason why a Linden hub cannot have resident content, there are 14 of them. If what you said were true, they'd delete them. You are confusing several issues.
[13:38]  TexasKat76 Broome: You are entitled to your interpretation.... SL of 2009 is not Sl of 2006
[13:38]  Prokofy Neva: Texas, do you grasp that there are *already* resident created hubs? and have been for years on the mainland? Under agreements with the Lindens? Like the Hobos, etc. I have one for my group myself. We applied for this in 2005 when they had an open call.
[13:38]  Jean Swashbuckler: we can agree to disagree on who can build...the real question is, where would we like to see it go in
[13:38]  Autumn Heyse: "[13:04] Blondin Linden: and the LDPW is going to be flat out this quarter" to me meant cash, i guess he meant time then?
[13:39]  TexasKat76 Broome: yes, it was time to spend on a new build rather than money
[13:39]  Autumn Heyse: sure sounds like cash in that statement
[13:39]  Prokofy Neva: Texas, you are WRONG. There are no "intellectual property " issues in having resident content on hubs. If that were true, ALL OF SECOND LIFE would have to have Linden built content only. Can you grasp that?! What are you implying? Is that how you think it should go after the Lindens lawyer up?
[13:39]  TexasKat76 Broome: Prok, you are entitled to your opinion
[13:39]  Jean Swashbuckler: Autumn, I'll clarify but in an earlier discussion it wasn't about cash it was about tasking resources
[13:40]  Prokofy Neva: Jean, it's not a question of "agreeing to disagree," it's a question of someone making a bogus overreaching legal interpretation to undo the progress of user-generated content rights on this platform for the last five years. Is that your intent?
[13:40]  Jean Swashbuckler: but will check with Blondin on the clarification
[13:40]  Wellington Beam: unless they've hired some more there are only three or four moles now. They let some of them go when some new rules came in aboutthem having to livein states or countries where LL could deal with the income tax issues
[13:40]  Wellington Beam: so they tend to be kept busy
[13:40]  Prokofy Neva: Texas, please back up your completely bogus claim that there cannot be resident content on Linden infohubs. I guess Baron Grayson's build better get deleted from Pathfinder's office in a jiffy then.
[13:40]  Jean Swashbuckler: yes Wellington, it sounds like they have added some based on Michaels recent OHs
[13:40]  Wellington Beam: ok
[13:40]  Jean Swashbuckler: correct on the states they can work in
[13:41]  Carl Metropolitan: There are reasons relaed to past litigation of player volunteers at other game companies, who later sued claiming they were employees. LL might be wanting to avoid that risk. It is the kind of thing lawyers would tell them to do, even if the risk was not significant. It might also explain why the Mentor program is being left to rot.
[13:41]  TexasKat76 Broome: Honey, having working with intellectual property issues for years, I understand them quite well
[13:41]  Prokofy Neva: Wellington, that's a separate LABOR issue, and one some have disputed the interpretation of, that ha snothing to do with the principle of being able to have resident content on Linden land. User content on Linden owned sims is the heart of the principle of SL. Your notion that you can undermine this for the sake of some managed community hub is just plain nonsense.
[13:41]  Autumn Heyse: i remember that with electric sheep carl
[13:41]  Autumn Heyse: however if they have writtenstatements from us "donating" the build it should be fine
[13:41]  Carl Metropolitan: The existing InfoHubs are a done deal. They can't mitigate risk by eliminating them--they could only draw attention to it.
[13:42]  Prokofy Neva: Texas, I don't care WHO YOUARE or WHAT you know in real life, you are ignorant of the principles in real life that back up Second Life: resident content on Linden owner servers. Can you grasp that?1
[13:42]  Carl Metropolitan: (again--I'm trying to think like a very conservative lawyer here)
[13:42]  Jean Swashbuckler: Carl, wasn't aware of that but ran community for one of the top 10 health dot coms in the early 90's and there are some issues that are IP related
[13:42]  Wellington Beam: undermine what?
[13:42]  Prokofy Neva: Carl, you are referring to Lum Lumley's story. That is an isolated story about LABOR and not about CONTENT>
[13:42]  TexasKat76 Broome: Work for Hire is contracted work.... and not subject to copyright claims
[13:43]  Prokofy Neva: There are not IP issues. That's bogus. All of Second Life consists of user generated content. This is a fake lawyering panic.
[13:43]  Carl Metropolitan: IP is an issue, too. I can see why LL's lawyers would be more comfortable having the moles who have signed RL contracts do all the building. Work for hire can be a muddy area
[13:43]  Prokofy Neva: That's aseparate issue than the issue of whether you can have resident content on a Linden server.
[13:43]  Autumn Heyse: the IP in second life is based on permissions set on your items, it says very clearly that if you release something full perm it becomes public domain unless it comes with a end user agreement, i will have to look up the wiki page to back that up but i am certain i read that on a secondlife.com domain wiki page
[13:44]  Prokofy Neva: Carl, it's nothing of the sort. It's just about managing and controlling. They ahve existing Linden Land all over the place, with the world of SL itself, but more specifically, on all kinds of Linden identified Linden land, Governor or Linden land. If this fake claim were true, they'd have to wipe out every chair by Ingrid, every prefab by Barnes, every script made by Catherine Omega. Please. Don't be ridiculous.
[13:44]  TexasKat76 Broome: What Linden L allows residents to exchange and what they can do as a business entity aare not the same thing
[13:44]  Prokofy Neva: Don't create fake ideas to give the Lindens more fake reasons to grab communities and manage them, it's really not warranted.
[13:45]  Prokofy Neva: Texas, THEY HAVE RESIDENT CONTENT ALREADY ON THEIR LINDEN LAND.
[13:45]  TexasKat76 Broome: hI Pons
[13:45]  Wellington Beam: hi Ponsonby
[13:45]  Prokofy Neva: it is not deleted, and has been there for years
[13:45]  Ponsonby Low: Hi, folks.
[13:45]  Jean Swashbuckler: heya Pons, welcome to a very active discussion
[13:45]  Cynebald Ceawlin: all -- can I back the bus up a bit from the IP discussion here? Is the lab pushing to put a hub out here, or did "we" ask for it? because I think there is a big lack of agreement on whether "we" want it or not (whoever "we" is)
[13:45]  Jean Swashbuckler: Prok, that was then and this is now
[13:45]  Carl Metropolitan: I'm not. I'm trying to think like a risk adverse lawyer. Existing content does not increase risk. New content does.
[13:45]  Marsha Warwillow: Yeah Cyn, did we ask for it?
[13:45]  Filbert Holmer: Um... Why are we discussing how a infohub would bw managed if we have yet to decide if we want one and where we would put it.
[13:45]  Jean Swashbuckler: Cyn, we asked for it...
[13:46]  Carl Metropolitan: This is not rational, but it is likely the advice their lawyers are giving them.
[13:46]  TexasKat76 Broome: We'd discussed it Cyn, in previous meetings....
[13:46]  Cynebald Ceawlin: exactly! if so, who asked for it, and when?
[13:46]  Prokofy Neva: Their reluctance to have a group run an infohub sure doesn't come into place when they have community gateways! where's the concern of the lawyers then?!!!! Why would it only pertain to mainland? That's nuts. It's ONLY about control. It's ONLY about the Linden cynicism, "You look good, we look good, so we need to control you so you look good."
[13:46]  Cynebald Ceawlin: ok, sorry I missed it
[13:46]  Ponsonby Low: Yes, I'll look forward to the transcripts...sounds like you're accomplishing a lot of idea-sharing.
[13:46]  Autumn Heyse: Cyn, those of us that have been here every week and planned the last event want the hub, we asked for it directly
[13:46]  Jean Swashbuckler: it's been the subject of several recent discussion and follows what we have learned with BC
[13:46]  TexasKat76 Broome: NP, that's why we're having a discussion now, to decide where (and if) for sure
[13:46]  Cynebald Ceawlin: fair enough. I haven't been to too many meetings
[13:46]  Jean Swashbuckler: thanks Autumn
[13:47]  Marsha Warwillow: Same here, sorry I missed them
[13:47]  Prokofy Neva: Filbert, the point is, there is absolutely nothing to stop you from making a group, or using the group you have, and asking the Lindens to set their existing build land to your group, or asking them to set aside a sim, and set to your build. Nothing. Gateway program is predicated on that notion. Resident Development Hub has been predicated on that notion for years. Do not let the uninformed speculation of TexasKat deter you from that.
[13:47]  Cynebald Ceawlin: it just seems that the group present here is FAR from a concensus that it is wanted
[13:47]  TexasKat76 Broome: That's okay, the more ontopic discussion, the better
[13:47]  Prokofy Neva: Carl, prove that lawywers are telling the Lindens now that they cannot have resident content on their hubs. If that is the case why does Gateway exist????
[13:47]  TexasKat76 Broome: Should we have a vote Cyn?
[13:47]  Nimue Jewell: Me too. I thought it was festival planning, I had no idea this was under diccussion until a couple of weeks ago when BC's openend.
[13:48]  Jean Swashbuckler: Cyn, that's today's meeting...there have been about 8 of us who have slogged through improving NC for months
[13:48]  Carl Metropolitan: Prokofy--I am speculating. I can't prove any of this.
[13:48]  Marsha Warwillow: If it is possible, could I get the elevator pitch on why we should have an info hub?
[13:48]  Prokofy Neva: You can hardly have a vote with a group of people who just showed up, that isn't representative of the whole of Nautilus, too bad the Lindens gutted the group voting tools.
[13:48]  Autumn Heyse: well last week the group here was a 100% vote for yes, so thats what weve been working off of, if people want to all of a sudden show up and act like this is a new concept, well sorry, its not
[13:48]  Cynebald Ceawlin: I agree, Prok
[13:48]  Prokofy Neva: Carl, why do you think it applies to mainland, but not you in Oxbridge? Aer you selectively applying scare-mongering lawyeristic speculation?
[13:49]  Cynebald Ceawlin: and yeah @Nim
[13:49]  Prokofy Neva: well sure, just have Nautilus run by The People Who Show Up, that would be in keeping with the usual non-democratic tekkie crap of the JIRA, for example, you'd be in good company.
[13:49]  Carl Metropolitan: I don't think it applies to the Community Gateways because they are not owned by LL.
[13:49]  Jean Swashbuckler: Folks...we did much more than plan the event and notices went out before each meeting
[13:49]  TexasKat76 Broome: That's the way it works in RL too. Whoever SHOWS UP winds up making the decisions
[13:49]  Prokofy Neva: Jean, that's never an excuse. Put up a voting device on a central location since the group democracy was killed. Yo udon't have legitimacy with just a handful of people.
[13:50]  Cynebald Ceawlin: yes, notices went out. this week is the first I'd heard about info hub discussions @ the meetings
[13:50]  Prokofy Neva: Not in the RL where I live, Texas : )
[13:50]  Jean Swashbuckler: Prok, it's not just about showing up it's about trying to make things happen
[13:50]  TexasKat76 Broome: Well, it works that way in MY world
[13:50]  TexasKat76 Broome: The sniping from the sidelines doesn't count for much
[13:50]  Jean Swashbuckler: and certainly works that way in politics
[13:50]  Ponsonby Low: How did it work in Bay City (or has that already been discussed?)
[13:50]  Autumn Heyse: the idea is "if you dont care enough to show up then you clearly dont care" and thats the way the JIRA works too, yes, if you care you vote
[13:51]  Cynebald Ceawlin: planning a festival w/ a few ppl is one thing. getting an info hub put in is an entirely different matter
[13:51]  Marsha Warwillow: Ok look I'm not saying oh hey you left me out of the discussion, or putting anyone on the defensive here. Many of us have participated and worked to promote Nautilus, and if we miss a few meetings that is too bad. But I did not get a notice saying you were VOTING on an info hub.
[13:51]  TexasKat76 Broome: Is Blue stillhere?
[13:51]  Jean Swashbuckler: the Bay City Alliance drove the issue
[13:51]  Wellington Beam: an infohub was part of the orignal plans for Bay City but wasn't implemented to begin with. We asked Blondin to have one added
[13:51]  Prokofy Neva: well make them happen, but don't undermine the entire system while you are at it. There is absoluetly no reason, Jean, why you should grove and cower to the Lindens and their putative lawyers and not ask for a group-set infohub. This is the norm. Do you grasp that? This is what Commumnity Gateways is where Carl is in. This is what Resident Developed Infohubs is all about. If you listen to TexasKat's strange speculation about this and cower, you will lose. You need to have your prims on these lands. Full stop. Otherwise, you will not work in them and you are a mere decoration to the Lindens.
[13:52]  TexasKat76 Broome: I enjoy being decorative, thank you very much
[13:52]  Prokofy Neva: And Wellington, you got your way. You have the highest populated infohub now in the entire maindland. You must have windfalls for your businesses in theory, although in practice what you have is griefing and a sim where newbies are turned away. Happy?
[13:52]  Prokofy Neva: Decorating a corporate-managed pseudo-resident community suits you.
[13:52]  TexasKat76 Broome: NOw that's just insulting...
[13:53]  Prokofy Neva: It's meant to be, because you are undermining years of work that we have accomplished here.
[13:54]  Carl Metropolitan: The only parcel of land Wellington owns adjacent to Hau Koda is the one he rents to NCI. So if you have a problem with that land, take it up with me. All Wellington is getting out of it is 1030L$ a week.
[13:54]  TexasKat76 Broome: You're an idiot
[13:54]  Prokofy Neva: Carl, answer my question: why do you think Community Gateways is exempt from putative lawyer concerns about IP of residents on Linden Land, but mainland resident developed infohubs would be savaged by such a policy? Do you support such double standards?
[13:54]  TexasKat76 Broome: Is THAT insulting?
[13:55]  Prokofy Neva: I think the broader intellectual community around SL and virtual worlds would grasp who the smart one is in this conversation.
[13:55]  TexasKat76 Broome: Oh, an intellectual.... that's explains it
[13:55]  Praetor Janus: I must go but before I leave I'd like to say that I support the idea that we need an Infohub and BlueGin choice in the Canal near the ship as the best place. I Wish you well
[13:56]  Jean Swashbuckler: thanks Praetor, glad you could be here
[13:56]  BlueGin Yifu: Thanks, Praetor.
[13:56]  Jean Swashbuckler: and appreciate your input
[13:56]  Autumn Heyse: canal near the ship? what area is that, you mean the moletank?
[13:56]  TexasKat76 Broome: Thanks Praetor, sorry it descended into philoophy hell
[13:56]  Carl Metropolitan: CGs are owned by private individuals who have entered into a lawyer-blessed contractual relationship with LL. Mainland resident developed infohubs are the kind of things that scare lawyers. I don't think such policies are rational or reasonable. However based on my experience with lawyers, I expect them.
[13:56]  Prokofy Neva: No, these are real issues, and y ou have merely postponed confronting them and listening to TexasKat spout legalistic fakery isn't going to help you.
[13:56]  Prokofy Neva: Carl?
[13:57]  BlueGin Yifu: Any place will be fine...... there are indeed good things and bad things about the info hubs. But I think the increased visibility and positive things far out weigh the few negative ones.
[13:57]  Carl Metropolitan: I expect companies to do less than intelligent things the larger they get and the more often they have been sued. It's a sad fact of life.
[13:57]  Prokofy Neva: what did you sign to get a Gateway? I thought it was meeting a criteria for a program, not signing a contract. And even so, such contracts don't imply that the relationship in another area is now now illlegitimate.
[13:58]  Carl Metropolitan: Prokofy--I can't comment on that.
[13:58]  Prokofy Neva: hahahaah an NDA Carl? For shame.
[13:58]  Jean Swashbuckler: thanks Blue...your thinking is what has driven this conversation
[13:58]  Carl Metropolitan: No--I just gave my word to Desmond.
[13:58]  Prokofy Neva: an NDA with Desmond -- even worse.
[13:59]  Carl Metropolitan: I'm suprised the LL's have not asked for a NDA
[13:59]  Prokofy Neva: They should not. Helping newbies is not a state secret.
[13:59]  Carl Metropolitan: If you think keeping one's word is a problem, we have nothing to discuss.
[13:59]  Prokofy Neva: That's the excuse Dick Cheney uses to determine what is the public interest.
[13:59]  BlueGin Yifu: It is easy to be verbose. It takes skill to communicate concisely and clearly. It takes leadership to communicate and bring a community together to accomplish something. I salute all of you who are working to accomplish positive things for the Nautilus community.
[14:00]  Jean Swashbuckler: ok, we're at the point we are back n forth ...anyone have anything else to add in terms of locations?
[14:00]  Filbert Holmer: I have to go as well. I support the idea if an infohub.
[14:00]  Carl Metropolitan: I admire and respect Dick Cheney.
[14:00]  Filbert Holmer: Take care all..
[14:00]  Autumn Heyse: we need to just ppick one and work with it
[14:00]  Prokofy Neva: I'm disgusted with how craven you are to the Lindens. You are undermining the work of other groups who have insisted on being treated as equals. There is no need for this.
[14:00]  Jean Swashbuckler: thanks Filbert!
[14:01]  Autumn Heyse: Prok, allow me to remind you of the Second Life Community Standards, "Given the myriad capabilities of Second Life, harassment can take many forms. Communicating or behaving in a manner which is offensively coarse, intimidating or threatening, constitutes unwelcome sexual advances or requests for sexual favors, or is otherwise likely to cause annoyance or alarm is Harassment." if you dont stop insulting people I will be filing an AR very soon
[14:01]  Autumn Heyse: i dont give a shit who you are or how FIC you might be
[14:01]  Prokofy Neva: Autumn, let me also remind you that spurious use of the abuse reporting tools and tendentious interpretation of the expression of opinion is also an offense that can lead to disciplinary action.
[14:01]  Carl Metropolitan: I think that is uncalled for. This is a fairly civil discussion.
[14:02]  Carl Metropolitan: Bringing in threats of ARs is wrong.
[14:02]  Prokofy Neva: I don't know who you are saying is "uncalled for" Carl. But I *am* disgusted with how craven this group is being. It is entirely not necessary. You know full well that the Lindens have not even told you that the build cannot have a resident group. Hello? Where have they said that? Of course it can. Ask them.
[14:02]  Autumn Heyse: this is not an argument, its about being a community and working towards something, we are all building and only one person is tearing down
[14:02]  Prokofy Neva: well it's typical, the false invocation of the TOS to suppress any dissent within the groups of "managed communities".
[14:03]  Carl Metropolitan: [14:01] Carl Metropolitan: I think that is uncalled for. This is a fairly civil discussion.
[14:02] Carl Metropolitan: Bringing in threats of ARs is wrong.
[14:03]  Prokofy Neva: But even being "managed" you do not have to be so craven and pre-fear Linden lawyers that in fact *the Lindens* have not invoked.
[14:03]  Prokofy Neva: well thanks for that minimum respect of civlity which includes the right to express dissenting opinion, Carl.
[14:03]  Marsha Warwillow: Good day everyone, thank you for the dialogue
[14:03]  TexasKat76 Broome: I doubt anyone here is afraid of the Linens
[14:03]  BlueGin Yifu: When is the next meeting, Jean? two weeks?
[14:03]  TexasKat76 Broome: Thanks Marsha
[14:03]  Prokofy Neva: But you are not helping this discussing in the larger sense by pre-determining lawyeristic notions that the Lindens themselves have not articulated.
[14:03]  Autumn Heyse: It is our resident right when we are being insulted, insulting people is wrong
[14:03]  Jean Swashbuckler: no Prok, but the festival would never have happened if several people had not taken the time and effort to improve things here
[14:04]  Jean Swashbuckler: Blue, it will probably be next week
[14:04]  Prokofy Neva: Well you wouldn't have to be afraid of them if you just predict what you think they would like and pretzel-twist yourself into conformity, Texas.
[14:04]  Carl Metropolitan: I am. One or two Lindens could crush any of us like a bug if they wanted to, due to the extremely unbalanced contractual relationship between SL residents and LL.
[14:04]  Autumn Heyse: i think Proks opinion is valid but the insults have to stop
[14:04]  TexasKat76 Broome: Since you admittedly know nothing about me, I'd say you are projecting
[14:04]  Prokofy Neva: Jean, I refuse to accept the whiney "but there are good pepole here doing good work and we worked hard' argument to undermine the basic principle: residents should be treated as equals. We pay tier. We help the Linden bottom line. Our contenht has been welcome and our groups have been wlecome on Linden Land. do not go below that by invoking lawyers and Lum Lumley.
[14:05]  Carl Metropolitan: Being afraid of the Lindens is rational.
[14:05]  Prokofy Neva: No, it's craven.
[14:05]  Prokofy Neva: The Lidnens have not deleted our group content on the resident hubs, Carl. When they do, you can have a full rent refund, don't worry.
[14:05]  Autumn Heyse: i was banned form SL for one hour for accidentally pushing someone on my own land, i know how it works, the Lindens always win
[14:05]  Prokofy Neva: No they don't.
[14:06]  Prokofy Neva: when resident organize with the law on their side, as we did with the telehub compensation, they do the right thing
[14:06]  Prokofy Neva: they are reminded by lawyers about "bait and switch" and they do the right thing
[14:06]  Carl Metropolitan: Why would I want a full rent refund (I presume you are talking about Ross). I received value for my rent for the time I paid.
[14:06]  BlueGin Yifu: Linden labs is not a public service organization; they are a business. ....... we're playing with their ball.
[14:06]  Prokofy Neva: the history of SL is not only about the Lindens' lawyers, or there would be no settlement in Bragg v. Lindwen.
[14:07]  Autumn Heyse: well, did we pick a location yet?
[14:07]  Prokofy Neva: Who is "we"?
[14:07]  Autumn Heyse: we the people of the Nautilus City Alliance
[14:07]  TexasKat76 Broome: No, not yet.... I think we're talking about making a location list
[14:07]  Jean Swashbuckler: Ok, it's been an hour and we are back n forth on something that won't be solved by this group
[14:07]  Autumn Heyse: Blondin asked us to pick a location
[14:07]  Prokofy Neva: Press the refund button any time you're not happy Carl.
[14:07]  Jean Swashbuckler: Carl, thanks for your time today
[14:07]  Jean Swashbuckler: and for everyone attending
[14:07]  Carl Metropolitan: I am very happy with all the land I've rented from you.
[14:08]  Prokofy Neva: So are we the people represented today by this handful of people on a time zone where people are awake?
[14:08]  Jean Swashbuckler: anything else at this point? on the info hub location?
[14:08]  Autumn Heyse: yes, thats why we have forums 24/7
[14:08]  Autumn Heyse: http://nautilusalliance.com
[14:08]  TexasKat76 Broome: So to sum up... we need space not on a residential sim with potentially an area for NCI to set up
[14:08]  Jean Swashbuckler: thanks Autumn
[14:08]  Autumn Heyse: feel free to join and rant as much as youd like
[14:09]  Autumn Heyse: heck post a link to your blog even
[14:09]  Ponsonby Low: Just a note in re the Wonders giver---since it now has the Website in it, it might bring more people to the discussion.
[14:09]  Jean Swashbuckler: and thanks to Wellington for helping to make the NCI node in BC work and Blue for getting the BC hub in
[14:09]  TexasKat76 Broome: Cool , Pons
[14:09]  Prokofy Neva: and you need to ask the Lidnens, as they have not indicated otherwise, to set the land to a resident group, perhaps this very one, but that can get zooey
[14:10]  BlueGin Yifu: not me........ the hub was promised when Bay City was created....
[14:10]  Prokofy Neva: Would you say it provided a windfall for Bay City business Wellington?
[14:10]  Autumn Heyse: they were very resistant in doing that during the summer festival
[14:10]  Jean Swashbuckler: thanks...we wondered how it got started
[14:10]  TexasKat76 Broome: And for the most part, it wasn't necessary
[14:10]  Prokofy Neva: I find the two infohubs I work at create more losses in anti-griefing time and are really more of a civic undertaking than a business proposition, but Desmond may disagree.
[14:10]  BlueGin Yifu: When they first announced Bay city, they said there will be an information hub in Hau Koda. Then they did nothing. So we pushed for it.
[14:11]  Prokofy Neva: Why did you let the Moles do the build? Are you not builders?
[14:11]  BlueGin Yifu: The Info Hub in MooseBeach just opened up one night with no notice.
[14:11]  BlueGin Yifu: I'm not as good as they are.
[14:11]  BlueGin Yifu: THey asked if we wanted to build it and we said no
[14:11]  Prokofy Neva: yes we met with the Lindens several weeks before that, discussed the entire infohubs issue, asked about load balance and various issues at the resident developed hubs, and with no notice, with no warning, they opened up a dozen of t heir own hubs, many copying the resident ones, like Moosehead is kind of a copy of Bear.
[14:12]  Prokofy Neva: : (
[14:12]  Wellington Beam: I'm not sure it has yet. The Hau Koda infonode is getting way more traffic than the average infonode which means Docklands is very busy too. Some residents in Docklands aren't happy about it having quite so much traffic
[14:12]  Prokofy Neva: You could have asked retired mole Barnesworth Anubis perhaps.
[14:12]  BlueGin Yifu: I didn't want to try to get everyone to agree on the design.
[14:12]  Autumn Heyse: wow they did bluegin? in that case we should get the opportunity here then. i really would love to do the build
[14:12]  Prokofy Neva: I had to pay a builder, and never really recouped the expense, but it was worth it.
[14:13]  Prokofy Neva: well that's just it Wellington, newbies traffic at first seems like a windfall, but for what? As what? For whom? It is n't a short-term shopping windfall. It's more of a long-term civic proposition, helping new people adapt so that eventually, they spend more time in SL, like it, settle in, then maybe buy land and stuff.
[14:13]  Autumn Heyse: i think our original ide aof a docked ship would work best on its own sim, then have a small docking bay lead you into nautilus
[14:13]  Autumn Heyse: i dont think we are wanting business from this
[14:14]  Ponsonby Low: It would be unique, Autumn, among Hubs (so far as I know).
[14:14]  Jean Swashbuckler: agreed Autumn.
[14:14]  BlueGin Yifu: THere are people who troll the info hubs looking to get newbies to work.
[14:14]  Autumn Heyse: this is just about community and making nautilus a bigger dot on the map
[14:14]  Jean Swashbuckler: nods at Autumn
[14:14]  BlueGin Yifu: asking them to be prostitutes
[14:15]  BlueGin Yifu: or strip or escort
[14:15]  Prokofy Neva: Too bad I sold my Nautilus land next to that, I loved that build and thought it was hugely cool, but I had 3 view blockers and land flippers around me who wouldn't quit for months and months, had to cut my losses. As many of us have had to do in Nautilus because the Lindens let the auctions be manipulated.
[14:15]  Ponsonby Low: Or be bitten.
[14:15]  BlueGin Yifu: yes
[14:15]  Prokofy Neva: blueGin, the problem is, it's at infohubs that people go and recruit newbies to be prostitutes sometimes in the grossest and most offensive way, even in PG
[14:15]  Prokofy Neva: and it's only by constant presence at these hubs that you can deter that
[14:15]  BlueGin Yifu: yes, that is true.
[14:15]  Autumn Heyse: one thing that i think many people dont understand is nautilus is very different from bay city, its primarily residential and very quiet community, we all have money or we wouldnt pay the prices for the land, land we do very little business on. This is not about us promoting our latest hair or shoes
[14:16]  BlueGin Yifu: did not know that before.
[14:16]  Prokofy Neva: and that's why if you have NCI nodes that's a big help, but more than anything, community policing needs people, presence, even one circuit rider
[14:16]  Prokofy Neva: I have an informal group of people who sort of "watch" these hubs, they AR trouble, they try to talk griefers into leaving, etc. I myself constantly land in them and try to make sure everything is ok, it's work
[14:16]  Jean Swashbuckler: totlly understand that one Prok
[14:16]  Prokofy Neva: it's very hard to get 24/7 coverage of a hub
[14:16]  Wellington Beam: I wasn't expecting business prospects to improve in the area . i spend most of my time at NCI so know the issues you generally get in newbie areas
[14:17]  Ponsonby Low: To be Captain Obvious, the more attractive the Hub build and area, the more people will find themselves volunteering to hang out there (to help newbies).
[14:17]  Jean Swashbuckler: agreed and understood as well
[14:17]  Prokofy Neva: the Linden requirements that they set for the CG program is a higher standard than they themselves meet at their own hubs! Desmond has to put staff 24/7 or volunteers; Blondin does not.
[14:17]  Jean Swashbuckler: good point Pons
[14:17]  Prokofy Neva: well but Ponsonby, it has to be a place that is not overloaded, as Moosehead is constantly
[14:17]  Ponsonby Low: Yes, I was just looking at the Map.
[14:17]  Prokofy Neva: and that's deliberate -- either a strategic policy or strategic neglect as I keep saying, but deliberate
[14:17]  Carl Metropolitan: I would carefully consider if you want an infohub here based on that description of Nautilus. It may be more trouble that it is worth to you. A lot depends--of course--on whether LL finally fixes their problem with assignment of newbies to hubs
[14:17]  Autumn Heyse: thats why i think Byth is a bad spot
[14:18]  Ponsonby Low: More of the more-attractive builds such as Hau Koda will....spread the people around a bit.
[14:18]  Wellington Beam: Blondin had an explanation for the high traffic in hau Koda earlier
[14:18]  Prokofy Neva: Lidnens have come en masse to study the problem -- we saw them having a meeting there and discussing this. They've been bombarded with concern about it. But there are several key issues, one is integrating with M Linden's friends Big Spaceship hired to fix the website and newbry entry.
[14:18]  Ponsonby Low: At this moment Hau Koda is far busier than MooseBeach.
[14:18]  Wellington Beam: thats something that we've been looking into. It seems that the randomizer (spelling?) on our end seems to be working fine. What is causing the imbalance is a combination of 2 things that we can't do much about in the immediate future. The first is that people just like to hang out there. THey come back willinging. The 2nd is Location. The Bay City hubs are the furest West on the grid and LOCATION plays a part. When a region is down, it will send an avatar to the nearest hub. Regions that are down in the west will be re-directed to Bay City.
[14:18]  Ponsonby Low: What was that, Wellington?
[14:18]  Ponsonby Low: (late)
[14:18]  Prokofy Neva: what is blondin's explanation? he can explain away, but you can also open up the list and look at the traffic
[14:18]  BlueGin Yifu: Bay City was a big project for the Lindens....... then management changed and they were not so interested. We still have streets that drop off to no where. We want them to finish what they started. Pushing for an Info Hub got their attention.
[14:19]  BlueGin Yifu: Wellington is right.
[14:19]  Prokofy Neva: Wellington, but there is additional information you need to understand
[14:19]  Ponsonby Low: We have unfinished places in the NC sims, too.
[14:19]  Prokofy Neva: when a newbie lands, he has a chance to get off Help Island by picking up a landmark that is given to him randomly
[14:19]  Carl Metropolitan: LL has always tended to chase after the new shiny
[14:19]  Prokofy Neva: on some days, it will hit 100 t9imes on Moosebeach and never hit the others as a result -- there is a serializer, but the Lidnens refuse for geeky ideological reasons to use it
[14:19]  Carl Metropolitan: Nautilus is still a bit shiny, but most of the pretty sparkly shiny has gone to Zindra
[14:20]  Prokofy Neva: furthermore, the Moosehead arrivals are in some cases getting this directly, they aren't picking a landmark, they are just simply being send there
[14:20]  BlueGin Yifu: I have land in Nautilus also. In both cases, it feels like they took the money and ran. So our community groups are really needed to move things forward.
[14:20]  Prokofy Neva: it's not just people returning
[14:20]  Prokofy Neva: go and watch there
[14:20]  Autumn Heyse: some of the mole builds in ZIndra are embarrasingly bad
[14:20]  Wellington Beam: but the Zindra infohubs aren't very busy yet
[14:20]  Ponsonby Low: Yes, Blue, I agree.
[14:20]  Prokofy Neva: they show signs of haste
[14:20]  BlueGin Yifu: There is no way everyone is going to agree on everything.
[14:20]  TexasKat76 Broome: There are info hubs in Zindra? Wow
[14:20]  Prokofy Neva: all of Zindra seems like a project that was being built for something else, and then somebody suddenly said "let's make this the adult grid"
[14:20]  Prokofy Neva: at least two
[14:20]  Prokofy Neva: with freebie content
[14:21]  Prokofy Neva: new content
[14:21]  BlueGin Yifu: So, now they are moving on to Zindra.
[14:21]  Prokofy Neva: like Nautilus
[14:21]  Carl Metropolitan: I wanted to get land in Zindra for NCI, but It's going to have to be on the secondary market. Someone put in a "resident help area" across from the main "Emporium" in Mosh that is amazingly embarassing.
[14:21]  BlueGin Yifu: Do you know that people who have mainland get to keep their mainland and get land on Zindra? no extra cost.
[14:21]  Prokofy Neva: The Lindens do what they want. That's why you can't be craven to them and have to stand on principles. They will respect that more3.
[14:21]  TexasKat76 Broome: Yes, Zindra was planned a long time ago..... disucssions at least a year ago (but not with it being adult)... just a new spacey build
[14:21]  Autumn Heyse: yes we are aware of the BlueGin
[14:21]  Prokofy Neva: BlueGin, they'd still have to pay the double tier tho
[14:22]  BlueGin Yifu: I only learned that this weekend.
[14:22]  Prokofy Neva: they'd have to pay the tier then on the new piece, unless they abandon the old piece
[14:22]  Prokofy Neva: so they'd add to their tier, even getting the freebie
[14:22]  Prokofy Neva: so what i shappening is they are dumping land right and left and mainland is crashing again in price
[14:22]  Prokofy Neva: land is $2/m
[14:22]  TexasKat76 Broome: not here
[14:22]  BlueGin Yifu: exactly.
[14:22]  Prokofy Neva: you're in a bubble here
[14:22]  Prokofy Neva: it's kept artificially high because the double prim land is a low tier option for a big land flipper
[14:23]  TexasKat76 Broome: yes, that's right... a Nautilus bubble
[14:23]  Prokofy Neva: they can afford to wait for an entire year before realizing a profit, which they will realize if they wait
[14:23]  Jean Swashbuckler: hi Vel
[14:23]  BlueGin Yifu: They are trying to make money. Tier works for them.
[14:24]  Jean Swashbuckler: ok, any more thoughts on location?
[14:24]  TexasKat76 Broome: They may have to wait for a cold day in Hell for someone to pay L$500,000 for a 1024
[14:24]  Jean Swashbuckler: I'll send the transcript with a summeary of land suggestions in the next 23 hours
[14:24]  BlueGin Yifu: not a charity or a real government....... always remember that. "Gov. Linden" is not running for election.
[14:24]  Prokofy Neva: They don't get cash from Nautilus. Nautilus auctions are a sink for them. What the yget presumably is a bit more currency sale fees, that's not like the direct cost of an island. They make this to show prospective buyers of SL or existing VCs that they can make community content that is compelling on the mainland.
[14:24]  Jean Swashbuckler: 24hours*
[14:25]  Prokofy Neva: And that's why you cannot buckle to them BlueGin. You have to be at least as full of spine as the people of China or Russia and demand at least the compliance with at least their own unjust laws. that's a minimum.
[14:26]  Autumn Heyse: do we have a list of options for location?
[14:26]  Jean Swashbuckler: correct Blue, and running a business is their focus..these discussions are not unlike the early days of CI$ and GEnie
[14:26]  BlueGin Yifu: I'm not sure I make the connection there with China and Russia. But it is why we are pushing them to do what they said when they built Bay City.
[14:26]  Prokofy Neva: BlueGin, the tier in Nautilus is going to be dwarfed by the tier in Zindra. open up the map.
[14:26]  Jean Swashbuckler: Autumn, we do in the transctipt and I'll pull these out
[14:27]  Autumn Heyse: ok
[14:27]  Jean Swashbuckler: so if you have others to think about, IM me
[14:27]  TexasKat76 Broome: not yet Autumn, otherthan the mole drill and the Dolphin Temple
[14:27]  BlueGin Yifu: understood
[14:27]  Jean Swashbuckler: we'll also go look around at the map based on today's discussions and see if anything else pops out
[14:27]  Jean Swashbuckler: especially since we know NCI's requirements
[14:28]  Autumn Heyse: dont foget about the mole tank launch platform as well, that would be an interesting place to start a journey into nautilus if there were historical signs around explaining the story
[14:28]  Wellington Beam: where's that?
[14:28]  Autumn Heyse: in weiland
[14:28]  TexasKat76 Broome: The one out in the ocean?
[14:28]  TexasKat76 Broome: or the drill on the north side of the canal?
[14:28]  Autumn Heyse: its where the moletank burrowed below the forcefield to unveill nautilus
[14:29]  Autumn Heyse: its not a drill
[14:29]  Autumn Heyse: its the launch platform
[14:29]  BlueGin Yifu: An underwater info hub in Howe would be fun also.
[14:29]  Autumn Heyse: you can see where the moletank went under the water
[14:29]  Ponsonby Low: If no one objects I'll send the smaller Wonders of NC givers out to the NCA as an attachment, and invite people to put them on their parcels. The promo for NCA membership and the NA.com site may bring more people to the discussion on the site.
[14:29]  Jean Swashbuckler: terrific, thanks Pons
[14:29]  Jean Swashbuckler: great idea Blue...
[14:29]  TexasKat76 Broome: Ah that's the one I was thinking of Autumn!
[14:29]  Prokofy Neva: Every people has the government they deserve.
[14:30]  Jean Swashbuckler: hadn't thought about underwater
[14:30]  Ponsonby Low: I'd enjoy it, but I know some people have a claustrophic reaction to being under SL water....
[14:30]  BlueGin Yifu: I love the little island at Howe.
[14:30]  Jean Swashbuckler: k, anything else?
[14:30]  Autumn Heyse: i wasnt suggesting underwwter, i was suggesting that sim
[14:30]  Ponsonby Low: So probably it should have an 'above ground' component too, if we went that way....
[14:30]  Ponsonby Low: Oh, I see.
[14:30]  Jean Swashbuckler: thanks Blue...keep brainstorming
[14:31]  TexasKat76 Broome: I think I need to go exporing to Weiland :)
[14:31]  BlueGin Yifu: Ok. I wish everyone a good evening.
[14:31]  Autumn Heyse: yes youll see the impressing in the ground left from the moletank
[14:31]  Jean Swashbuckler: thanks Blue...same here
[14:31]  Wellington Beam: night Blue
[14:31]  TexasKat76 Broome: Thanks for coming over, Blue!

Comments

[Prokofy Neva]

Some other really "special" moments from this conversation, filled with all the exemplars of co-opted community sychophancy and self-interest.

Autumn Heyse jumps at the chance to do an infohub build *herself* and would love to be the one to put *her build* into the infohub. Understoon, Autumn *chuckles*! Of course, that's different than the situation in 2005 where we all applied, where there was a group of them, where there weren't even *enough* applicants to fill existing infohubs (and some went fallow or were resold by LL as a result). Still, it's the spirit of how this problem should be approached -- communities will invest in something where *their own builds* are located. And why shouldn't they?!

Notice Texas76 doesn't tell her friend Autumn, who later "sticks up for Texas" by threatening to AR me (lol) that her content wouldn't be "legal". When Autumn raises it again, she says nothing. And that's because..."she's one of us" ROFL.

Notice Jean imposes something that happened to him in an online community 1,000 years ago in terms of the Internet in the 1990s. It wasn't a virtual world but a health community online. And suddenly, his old experience with corporate overreach and community content is allowed to stand, although I'm told haughtily by these incipient FIC types that..."It's 2006, Prok, not 2009."

No. It's 2009, and Facebook was forced to re-do their TOS because users complained and demanded better guarantee of their rights.

No. It's 2009, and Twitter has to tweak follow because users object how they nerfed it.

[Darien Caldwell]

I forgot about this meeting. I specifically bought land on Nautilus because it was quiet and non-laggy. And because it had no Infohub. I'm kind of irritated they want to put one in there now. I guess I'll have to put up banlines if things get out of hand. Seems like the Digging machine is the most popular choice, and that's VERY close to my land.

It seems to me most of the people who want this infohub want it for the traffic they feel it will bring their businesses. Not exactly a noble cause. If they had business sense, they would advertise instead.

[Prokofy Neva]

I'm not sure that these people have a direct business interest. Note the snide comment about "not needing to sell hair". It could be that they just enjoy the officious sense of having the Lindens put in a train station at their behest, like they are town fathers. It's a fun RP.

What I didn't realize is that roiling beneath the country-club ilke exterior of Nautilus are some contentions -- some people don't want the hub at all.

When you put a hub into your continent, it's like the RL equivalent of having a bus station -- or a men's homeless shelter -- come into your area. And that's when get a NIMBY issue.

I'm chuckling because I had land with a view on to the Digging thing, but I sold it because I just got fed up not being able to rent it behind view blockers. Several of the land flippers with the extortionist high prices there put up huge towers. I had a neighbour that also put up a store with giant prims blocking even the Linden land easements around the double prim lots. It was just hard to keep going back there and waiting to rent it. I realized that if I enjoyed the Lindens' builds, I could just fly there and see them any time without having to pay tier on a land that wasn't renting and that I couldn't live in myself with the blocked view.

I tested a buy recently by one of the Linden infohubs with the theory that even paying somewhat more for the land, you'd save on advertising. Hmm. I'm not sure that turned out to be true but my test wasn't so hot because there was a dog-in-the-manger type on that sim, too, with giant boards blocking the view.

[Desmond Shang]

Gee Prok, I'm not very FIC if I'm not showing up to meetings and fighting for supposed influence, am I?

In fact, I believe in your cause.

I'd love to see you with real control of an infohub. With resident content on it! I don't see anything wrong with that if there's some fair criteria in place. Everyone wins.

Deep down I think you'd do it right; the only reason I give you crap about your motives is that you've accused *me* of all sorts of awful motives.

My main motive to get a gateway was "because it sounded fun" and sure, if a few people remember Caledon because of it, hey great.

I don't have any big secrets, either. Oxbridge is an academic setting, not a bazaar. Perhaps if I sold stuff to new residents there I'd have a handle on their habits, but... I don't sell stuff to new residents there. It's a university setting.

If you must, Prok, think of Oxbridge as bling. Yep, "bling." You heard me right. Like the leaping cat on the front of a Jaguar, Oxbridge is out front but won't make or break the rest of Caledon.

Some things are just sort of there for the coolness factor and to add a bit of class to an all too often tawdry grid full of Love Hotels and Pink Flamingo's.

* * * * *

Quoting Prok here: "I mean, at what point should you in fact think of something more fair, which is having an open competition for contractors to assist in infohubs, either for profit or non profit?"

... Prok, this isn't ever going to work. Once that there are open competitions for infohubs, the PN and the Woodburys and so forth *will* win gateway bids. Either under the usual names or assumed ones.

Like it or not the real solution is somewhere in the middle, between unfettered capitalistic bidding and vetted, approved groups. Money however should be one of the *least* factors.

* * * * *

Of course, it's entirely possible that nobody will believe any of this, most of all, Prok.

In which case, I can usually be found for evil monologues on late Saturday evenings, where you can get my full evil conspiratorial details. You'll know you are in the right place if you see this on the bottom of the ashtrays...

http://images.nexeusfatale.com.s3.amazonaws.com/ficlogo.jpg

But expect to be tied up and left with incompetent guards afterward. And a red LED countdown timer strapped to something technical looking.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a conference call with Hank Scorpio in just a few moments here...

[Prokofy Neva]

1. Why would you need to be at a meeting of a mainland community about its infohub, Desmond? You already have a lawyer-blessed legal contract with the Lindens to operate an infohub as one private company to another private company.

2. I don't need to control an infohub. In fact, um, I control an infohub -- along with other members of the SL Public Land Preserve who contribute tier and builds and such in Iris -- next to the Linden hub. That's enough to keep me busy. It's easier to do this work on land where I have ban perms than it is where I don't, but I'm interested to see how resident groups and the general public on the mainland can cooperate as equal and respected partners with the Lindens in the whole civic enterprise of the mainland -- I simply find that more interesting than the sort of B2B contact that I can go, um, roleplay in real life if I have a fancy for it. I've run businesses, non-profit offices, etc. in my life, and I continue to work with organizations as an independent contractor, and I have enough fun signing long contracts in RL, so that I don't have to roleplay this with the Lindens : )

3.Your motives will always be suspect, Desmond, because of your track record of heinous and bad behaviour. You can't jump over your own knees. When were we going to hear that you *signed a lawyer-blessed contract with the Lindens*?! I thought there was an open program, and anyone who met the criteria upon review -- very strict criteria to be sure -- was in, on the basis of the kind of handshake one makes in a virtual world. I didn't realize *lawyers* were involved. My word, Desmond, how important you are!

4. The idea that you don't sell stuff in your blingy Oxbridge is one of those eye-blinking concoctions for which you are famous, Guv'nor. You *sell your rentals*. You *sell the entire frigging continent of Caledon*. Duh? It's not like you have to have $10 newbie hair out, like I do in my more modest and humble mainland hub.

5. The idea that the Woodburies and PNs and such would win contracts if there were an open bid is absurd. Of course they wouldn't. The Lindens are not going to hand over their land to anonymous avatars on day-olds with no payment on file.

6. Money *is* a factor. It's not only that you buy a lot of sims -- although not enough to be on the splash screen like Adam -- but it's enough to buy you a piece of the newbie stream. I suppose that *should* be for sale, really. It's a scarce commodity. Up until now, the Lindens gave it away for free. But then, given what happens to those poor newbies, and the attrition rate of 9 out of 10, and given the considerable customer service/griefing problem that ensures, maybe it was something the Lindens had to give away for free...I have to think about that.

7. The Lindens could still impress us and do a simple thing:

A. Decide how they want to carve up the newbie stream -- to their feted big sim buyers like yourself who still are vain enough to want to shine on for newbies, to helping do-gooders with empire aspirations like Carl, to people like me who just think its interesting to make experiments like this work; to people like the Hobos who believe in freeness and helping for free and providing free content. These all represent different models from the capitalist to the communist, and may the best man win.

B. Apportion that newbie stream based not on ideological reasons, but purely pragmatic reasons. Where can the Lindens retain the most customers, or, if that isn't possible either to do OR to predict (I suspect both!), then, give it to whoever buys the most sims.

C. After the cut is made to the big ticket winners -- CG, Hobos, whatever, apportion the rest of the stream. This could be done on the serial basis rather than the random basis.

D. Load balance, in case the notion of sending all the newbies to Caledon or Azure Islands turns out to be counterproductive because they all pile up on a few sims and

E. Drop the idea of putting the lion's share of newbies in Bay City's hub, Moosehead, which is what they are doing now. There is no earthly reason for this. Whatsoever. It doesn't even help the businesses there. The people there don't pay as much tier as Desmond or Adam. It's nuts, and they need to stop it.

F. Find a way to poll Nautilus citizens more fairly than on their own community controlled forum where the harridans might intimidate people, i.e. on Survey Monkey, anonymously, to see if the people in Nautilus even want a hub. Advertise this pole on the blog. Make it possible only to be filled out by those who own land or are in a land group in Nautilus, i.e. for your vote to count, a SLURL must accompany it.

G. Load balance. Did I say load balance?

H. Drop the fake concern of lawyers, and TexasKit76, whose main concern about IP is her own company's desire to sell prefabricated rock concerts in SL -- or give them away to help her rentals/events/stuff (I'm asking Jean which it is now).

Second Life is a vibrant community of residents who provide content and volunteer to take care of newbies. This does not create labour and IP problems except for those looking for and finding trouble and/or using that fake trouble to control people further and stuff them in corporate managed communities.

The Lindens may still surprise us yet, and prove that they are not interested in stuffing us into corporate managed communities.

I live in hope.

[Riven Homewood]

PN: "Your motives will always be suspect, Desmond, because of your track record of heinous and bad behaviour."

I am SO GLAD to see somebody finally unmasking the real Desmond Shang! Caledon may look like paradise on the outside, but every Caledonian resident secretly quakes in his/her boots at the though of the infamous Catgirl Dungeon. Nobody dares speculate as to what actually happens to all those noobs once they graduate from the Oxbridge dorms. All that is known for sure is that many more enter through Oxbridge than ever take up residence in Caledon - but nobody dares mention this fact in the presence of Mr Shang.

[Scared Citizen of Caledon]

You are quite correct to highlight Desmond's evil landbaron ways, we need someone like you to lead us into the light of liberty from the dark oppression that is Caledon, please save us from the ongoing easy going, tolerant hell we live in! I have to stop writing now as I hear the minions of Desmond coming to take me away.....

[Dean Fogwoman Gray]

"Your motives will always be suspect, Desmond, because of your track record of heinous and bad behaviour. You can't jump over your own knees"
Thank heavens someone out there understands what those of us forced to live in Desmond's work camps have been trying to tell people!
Please for the love of heaven help us! Forced to role play Victorian mores and wear ridiculous outfits, dancing and building and sending all our hard earned lindens to the Beast!
Slaving away for months of the year raising money for the American Cancer Society, constantly being asked to "help" with places we do not even live! And foreigners, furries, robots, it is like living in some surreal bizzare film that never ends.
And now....NOW....Oxbridge. How I howl when I hear that name! The steel collar about my neck that chains me to that cursed place. All the other poor souls who slave away in those dank and fetid hallways, the stench of plywood boxes and freebie avatars in our noses. Forced to make high quality goods to give away to the scores of unappreciative newcomers who flood our gates. The line of poor souls forced to assist all the newcomers and not paid a dime! Slavery and abuse! We cry out for justice and freedom from the long hours spent thanklessly labouring for such an unjust and abusive Baron. Being forced to teach life skills to the great unwashed as others sit in meeting rooms arguing philosopy. The injustice of it is mind boggling. Bless you for bringing this horror into the light and shining your crusading sword of Truth and Right on the dark and dirty deals that undermine all that is beautiful in Second Life!
Fogwoman Gray
Dean, Caledon Oxbridge University
Unpaid Sycophantic follower of Teh Ebil Land Baron

[Dean Fogwoman Gray]

The above sarcasm brought to you by:
"a vibrant community of residents who provide content and volunteer to take care of newbies"

[Prokofy Neva]

Gosh, what a parade of loons. I'm glad I've given you all a chance to RP and ridicule others and give you your fix of superiority for the day.

The fact is, Desmond's heinous behaviour in Caledon, whatever that might be, isn't something I know anything about -- I don't live there anymore. I'm talking about other issues, in Alice, namely, one supremely petty act he committed there once -- and then his heinous acts in this blog discussion, where he completely outrageously and maliciously accused me of somehow getting some venal, grubby financial interest out of working these infohubs.

The fact is, if one had a proper appreciation and respect for capitalism, it would actually be *ok* to have a venal and grubby interest in financial benefits in working in an infohub.I should have MORE of one, and maybe I'd make more money, like Desmond and people like Elanthius do. I don't make more, not because I have some socialist ethos like Lauk or the Hobos or Carl (although perhaps he makes a profit on his own store), but because I just don't have the skills or the time to put into it.

[Prokofy Neva]

Actually, it's just the sort of stupid-ass, grindingly mediocre role-play of Caledon that forced me out of there, the kind that can pretend to be sophisticated and poking urbane fun at the pompous -- blah blah -- and completely miss the larger Vanity Fair of the Nautilus meeting, with its preeny show-offs saying they are too good to sell hair, with the Linden running out of a battery and having to "jump," with Carl laboriously counting prims like a good burgher -- Desmond's burgherness has really worn off on him.

Honestly, I don't have to make up this stuff.

[Former Linden]

You supremely petty and ridiculous creature. One act Desmond performed in Alice? Good heavens, what did he do, look at you? I can't tell you what pleasure it used to give me to boot you from public meetings for your disruptive rantings. If only I could do the same with your journal; it's an excrescence dredged from a bucket of vomit. Do us all a favour; go hang yourself.

[Jorge Serapis]

I'm naive when it comes to the shenanigans of higher beings than myself. So, M. Neva.. you've levelled some heavy accusations against Mr. Shang. Fair enough. Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

For the sake of me forming my own, could you please tell me just *what* exactly is Mr. Shang's heinous and bad behaviour? And just *how* is Mr. Shang accusing you of "profiting"? (Or are you accusing HIM of the same thing, and if so, how?) I don't see it in these writings. I'm not trying to be sarcastic ("one of the parade of loons" as you mentioned), or sophisticated and pompous (I don't get the "Vanity Fair" reference.. I cancelled my subscription years ago). And what evidence do you have that Blondin was lying about low battery power? It seems to me if accusations are made, then you must have something to back them up.

I'd really like to see all this proof so I can form a properly educated opinion. Thanks in advance.

[Prokofy Neva]

Jorge,

"Vanity Fair" is a famous novel by Thackeray. Oh, never mind...

Desmond was once called upon in Alice to chip in a mere couple thousand Lindens with a group of about 8 of us who decided to get together to buy out a parcel of land that went to sale at rather a high price -- but not an extortionist price -- it was $8 at a time when $8 in PG was never seen, and $3 or $4 in PG was the norm. It was a special set of circumstances in that we were all sharing this sim and helping each other's businesses for some time -- I helped Desmond even when he was a newbie. Desmond just stubbornly and churlishly dug in his heels and refused to chip in to make the burden a little easier. It's not about the $3.71 US that it might represent. It's about an attitude. For him, the abstraction of some permanent policy about never feeding land extortionists blinded him from seeing the very specific situation on this sim - that it wasn't really about an extortionist, that the price was nothing like an extortionist one, and that it involved someone who was a brother of somebody else, who had put up a club but then realized it was going nowhere in PG, who then got testy about being asked to remove the ugly stuffing in the view and then seemed amenable to a buy-out. It was just one of those things when most people in the neighbourhood just get together and act and fix the problem to save the view for everyone. They can agree to leave it fallow as prim land, whatever. Done all the time. But Desmond was a prig about it.

And he was a fussy and annoying prig about it precisely because he was trying to drum it into everyone's heads that they had to move off the mainland because of ad farm extortionism, and move to his lovely Steampunk island. He even had ads to this effect. He was already basically moved out of Alice at the time. So it was an act of real churlishness -- remaining in the sim and leaving a store out to kaching with vendors of his houses, running off to his fabulous islands, and not eeven helping to save the view for some long-time neighbours and colleagues--mainly me, who had helped him in his business by displaying his prefabs and encouraging visits to his store, while he gave me free copies to display. It was a neighbourhood -- but Desmond pissed on it because it was more important to him to shaft me and the others and insist he had principles -- and allow even his own sim to remain ugly -- to prove a point.

Since then, other occasions, Desmond has shown himself to be churlish and priggish in the same way. Read my blog. I don't have to prove it to your satisfaction. I don't expect to.

As for Linden and his low battery power, I've had that line used on me so many times by Lindens in particular over the years that I simply never believe them. It's one of their favourite exit lines, especially to let you know "I really don't want to be working on a weekend and I'm only on a laptop at my country house or my boat, and have to jump."

Batteries don't run out when you plan ahead to charge them up.

[Jorge Serapis]

Thanks for the quick response, and thanks for the detailed explanation. I'll read some more and ask about before I make up my mind about this.

As to your statement "I don't have to prove it to your satisfaction", I fully agree. The facts should speak for themselves. THEY would have to prove it to my satisfaction for me to concur you have a point in my opinion, not you.. so yes.. you're also right about not expecting.

And batteries do run out, no matter how much you charge them up. Never met a battery yet that lasts forever once it's fully charged. It's been my experience so far.

I wish you well.

[Darien Caldwell]

They make these things called Battery chargers. You can plug them into the wall, and voila, the battery charges, *and* your laptop still works. Unless he was in the middle of the amazon jungle, that was a pretty poor excuse.

And wow, I was just thinking about how you don't see the word prig used much anymore (seriously). Glad to see it put to very good use. :)

Since the subject has turned to Desmond, I'll give my feelings about Des, First time and Last time:

I'm usually quick judge of people, and once I came to SL and spent time in the official SL forums, it didn't take me long to see Desmond was big on self-promotion. Every post went on about how much money he makes and how much favor he has with the Lindens. He always manages to work that into every post. He is a very witty and intelligent man, a lot of charisma. But I think he fell prey to that which many of us do when we find success here in SL, he caught the celebrity bug. The Newsweek article certainly couldn't have helped that. :)

But I also know he is a man of principle, and I do have respect for him. He is a human, with all the flaws and foibles that come with that. He has a right to be proud of what he has done, but needs a kick in the pants to bring him back down to earth with the rest of us mortals. :)

[Lum Lumley]

Thanks for the shoutout, but I really don't think you can blame me for the Reab v. EA lawsuit :)

http://www.lawspotonline.com/vwlaw/liti/reab.jsp

At the risk of distracting the conversation from land baron drama, the reason EA was successfully sued was that, essentially, they used volunteers to do the job of paid employees, and then later had those same volunteers to train their paid (outsourced) replacements. It's a fairly cut and dried, if somewhat arcane, part of US labor law.

Funcom (operators of Anarchy Online and Age of Conan) use volunteers liberally. They are based in Europe, so not subject to US labor law. Other US MMO operators have not, chiefly due to fear of further legal action whether or not it would be warranted and because, honestly, MMOs make enough money to have paid customer service on staff (although some outsource CS to India).

So this is interesting from a VW operations sense - a bit more interesting to me than today's landlord dramaz.

[Wrath Constantine]

"Oh whah, Desmond didn't help buy land in a sim that he has no interest in" "Oh whah, I'm gonna hate him now for not overextending himself more than he already is, managing 49 sims and taking care of a nation of folks that ADORE him". Pfeh, probably because he's here busting his ass to please those of us who appreciate him and his efforts. Get someone to change your diaper already, it's apparently full.

So he wanted no part in your sim-saving plan? Oh well. Get over it. There are tens of thousands of folks online at any given time. Close to 80,000 on now. Perhaps if you weren't such a git to people you could have found *someone* interested in joining your cause instead of trying to guilt someone who was your friend into doing it.

And then to hold a grudge over it? Again, get over it. Grudges are unhealthy. They fester and eat at you, possessing your thoughts and your efforts until you are no longer doing what you enjoy. (Unless, of course, you enjoy sending piss and wind in all directions...)

You let RP chase you out? WEAK. I'm a resident of Caledon, yet I hardly RP at all. It's not a requirement. It's not even that frequently seen. I'm just me. And people seem to like me for me. Just as people like Des for who he is, and countless other Caledon residents like each other for being who they are.

I have yet to read you actually saying something NICE about someone or something. Seriously, who pissed in your coco-puffs? I highly doubt you have the following that Des does. Us dedicated loons are not here on your blog for you, or for any 'roleplay' or however you want to laugh it off. We're only here to counter the defamation of character you have levelled at someone whos only crime has been to focus his efforts on those occupying his existing sims.

Go ahead, laugh it up. Whine all you want. This is, after all, your blog. But you can be damn certain we'll be up in your face if you attack Des. He's been nothing but good to us.

Love and peace. And no, I don't want to buy your bloody lamp.

[Prokofy Neva]

Lum, I'm not sure if you are saying that you realize this isn't some "landlord" drama.

If you take your SL-hate glasses off for a minute, you can see how this is the same issue? In fact, the men are even in tights in Nautilus so that should make it easier.

Well, yes, you're not to blame *really* except...you are in the larger cosmic sense for buying into and zealously sustaining the entire sick volunteer system in the first place, which you readily admitted (and thanks for that! That was priceless!) was merely a kind of self-medicating practice to try to make your sorry ass feel better at the time.

Truly, that was a grand admission that few people ever, ever admit -- that the "help the noobz" dysfunction is just a means of trying to shore up self esteem, not really about selflessness, much of the time.

The situation is precisely exact, and has even more ramifications in a world with IP unlike your games where the game gods own all the IP.

First, picture all these infohubs. Instead of taking the telehub buyout offer, some of them (like me) applied to redevelop them. Other people (various artists, community leaders, etc.) also applied to try to fix up these traffic-less, lame Linden builds.

So about 14 groups showed up to fix these former hubs, out of some 40 of them (the Lindens either sold off the rest or let them languish until recently).

All of these groups are volunteer, enthusiastically beavering away, building, and helping newbs who come to them -- supplied by the Lindens who stream them there after orientation island. Don't let the fact that some of these people are "land barons" (whatever your prejudicial idea of that is); picture the Hobos, who are among the highest neat content producers on the grid, and whose people help newbies less from the dysfunction you describe but from a sense of community and selflessnss, a kind of avocation, if you will.

Then, the Lindens, who always swore they would never, ever get into the content business, get back into it to sell land. See, they're the land barons, if you need to apply your "hate" somewhere. They also make these sort of somewhat kitschy managed communities where they have done all the builds -- not like resident communities where residents make the builds. It's part of their dropping the "You look good, we look good" hopes and changing it to "We look good, and you can look good by standing next to what we make."

To accomplish this, they *hire residents*. In fact, they pay them, but pay them only US $10 an hour, which, compared to Reuters, which was paying some of these same people $50 an hour, and compared even to jobs in RL like babysitter or store clerk seems low paid.

Next, what happens is the Lindens say they've run out of money and can't keep building these areas like this. But they also first fire some of the Moles, as they called these $10/hour builders, because of their over-careful reading of labour law -- they claim they can only hire them from certain states that seem to have the right codes. That is, instead of just booking these people as 1099 contract workers and letting those workers take care of their own taxes in the U.S. or wherever they are, they apparently do something else, not sure what, make them w-2 employees? I'm not getting any of this, as it seems so stupid, I say this as someone who has run businesses and filed 1099s across states and also routinely file them myself across states.

Honestly, it is so stupid. How do you think Google hires engineers from all over the world?!

So now you have disgruntled, out-of-work moles, but you have another thing -- residents saying, well, hell, if you don't have money to keep making these managed communities, can't we continue building them as volunteers?

And more operative was the issue of the infohub, which is a bit of urban institution a la Jane Jacobs which has a whole history as you may know.

The Lindens, of course, don't have any democratic procedures and even took out the voting function in groups recently (they claimed it was about lack of use and data base lags, but it came immediately after a massive protest on the grid -- the lack of use was due to the lag.)

So some people didn't even want these hubs bringing too much clueless noob traffic to their doorstep. Others wanted it because they thought that would help their businesses. Still others just like to play that dysfunctional RP called "I help newbz and gain my self-esteem this way."

I don't help newbs in this fashion, BTW. I make them pay at least a low rent before I spend five minutes on them. I want at least US $1.50 a month before I spend 5 minutes explaining Second Life's arcane workings to you lol.

So then two things happened: some residents wanted to build their own hub if there were no moles, so as to have possession of the build and possibly even the land, too -- this issue has been hotly contested, over how these hubs will be managed because in order to eject people you need ownership or perms in the group.

But then other residents invoked the EA lawsuit and said that the Lindens would no longer let people perform services like this without payment because of fear of lawsuits.

And they used this as a reason to stall on progress with these hubs.

Now, as Carl points out, maybe lawyers fear new things more than old things that are grandfathered, but frankly, this over-zealous fear of lawsuits is really over the top. Because if you are going to say that all voluntarily produced labour -- an IP -- on the grid is only going to lead the Lindens to stop all of it for fear of a lawsuit, you've created a Blue Mars sort of world then, where all content creation and work has to take place under a contract with a legal person under certain standards of RL. Because at any minute, any community of people building content and helping the Lindens' customers, the newbz, could take a fit, in theory, and grumble that they are doing unpaid labour.

The Lindens signed contracts with private island owners to perform the service of newbie helping, and they do not pay them any compensation, but likely there is wording that makes it clear that they get the newbies stream that helps their business as a kind of advertisement in exchange for providing orientation.

And little by little, the Lindens will contract this up, and they'll force Carl to sign a contract, which is why he should be less fearful of them, and show a lot more spine than he shows in this meeting.

If I can't set up a business or non-profit and voluntarily help newbies -- the Lindens' customers they've brought in -- because they fear I will sue them for not paying for labour -- then the entire premise of SL is broken.

But of course, you like broken toys.

U.S. labour law doesn't say you can't have volunteers. If that were true, not a single non-profit or even corporation with do-good departments would ever get a single thing done in America. America thrives on volunteers. It's more a matter of notification, so that people in a program realize they are not to be compensated.

There's nothing arcane about the labour law you do cite. While volunteers helping newbies in a game is one thing, once they are asked to keep a schedule and train paid employees, then it becomes litigation worthy.

And don't forget this, you legal beagles. THIS LAWSUIT DID NOT RESULT IN A JUDICIAL DECISION THAT HELPED SHAPE VIRTUAL WORLD LAW. IT DID NOT RESULT IN A PRECEDENT WHICH WOULD FORM THE LAW OF THE LAND. IT RESULTED IN A SETTLEMENT.

So, no judge ruled, "You can't have volunteers in a game help newbies or it is a violation of U.S. labour law."

All that happened is that the judge agreed to hear the case to see IF it violated the law but never made that call -- because it was SETTLED.

Like Bragg was settled. Like a lot of other cases get settled and do not then create law by precedents. Internet lawyers often have a hard time grasping this, I remember even Cali-trained lawyer Benjamin Duranske couldn't grasp this and kept dancing around and claiming that Strokers' suits had some kind of weak rhetorical precedent value. It doesn't.

The fact is, they merely create an urban legend, a wall of fear like white alligators in the sewers.

Read what was said about this at your own link:

""People did counseling because they loved doing what they were doing -- a love of the game, helping the players, the community and a feeling of family," explains Reab. "It changed from that to being a job -- with schedules and work hours, and people being fired and favoritism and all those things." --Salon.com

The reason the Lindens got rid of the Mentors as it began to take on that schedules and favouritism stuff. And that means people begin to think of lawsuits if they are screwed over, kicked out of mentors because they don't show up, or if they think someone else gets a mentor slot due to being FIC (which of course was the case).

I'm all for virtual worlds being brought under the rule of law. It would help end just this kind of exploitation and favouritism that does go on. But you also don't have to be a zealous nerd about it and can concede that communities have volunteer programs that can be supervised so as not to violate laws.

Really, the job of helping newbies is work, work that pays off in retention, and should be outsourced to Lindens by competent personnel firms, which they find by open bids with multiple bids in transparent contracts. They refuse to do this sort of thing in their business practices. It's common in Silicon Valley to completely reject a practice known all over involving bidding out jobs and taking multiple bids on them and reviewing them against criteria in some process at least transparent to board supervision. In Silicon Valley, they think they are special and should only hire people they went to barcamp with or played WoW with or who live next door to them in Atherton.

[Desmond Shang]

Interesting point, Lum. And I agree, far more worth talking about.

* * * * *

Prok's still upset about that incident in Alice... of course, a lot is left out. I was, at the time, extremely busy when I got an IM from Prok, basically wanting $L to dislodge someone trashing up the Alice region.

On principle, in general, it's a bad idea to 'buy out troublemakers'... because once you buy one out, suddenly there will be five more needing to be bought out. Funny how that works! And I said as much, and not having the hour or whatever it was to check out the situation myself, left it at that.

As it was, I was eventually convinced that this was an isolated case and the fellow was not likely to return. Thing is, if someone sends me an IM rudely demanding money (just trust me!), then yeah, you are likely to get a 'no'. Even if you have a good cause.

Incidentally, just by keeping West Trade Imports in Alice for another couple years I did more to save the view than Prok bothers to remember. The grounds were mostly forest. West Trade wasn't making much for the last 18 months of its tenure, because I was so busy elsewhere. Even now, Alice has a heavy concentration of Caledon residents specifically *because* I tried to take care of the place. Prok forgets about the work we did (quietly) to help clean up the ad farms. Of course, none of us were dutifully reporting our activities to Prok (why should we).

In fact, *I'm* still in Alice with a small parcel. Sometimes I need to answer bucketloads of IM's in peace, like last night.

And no, Prok, no matter how tacky you get, I won't ever put up a giant refrigerator or invite goons over to hassle you. Or rudely call you names out of the blue, on a blog. Nor would I encourage others to do so. These sorts of tactics are at the level of your usual sparring partners, and yourself.

This is getting to be a bit old, like the Leary vs Liddy lectures, eh Prok? Lots of noise but no result, save for staying in the news? I just can't figure out which one of us is Leary and which is Liddy.

Fear not though, I have some big plans for the future, and no doubt there will be plenty of actual fresh material for you to criticise.

[Prokofy Neva]

Geez, role-play nerds are really a pain in the ass, aren't they! And tribes are disgusting. People come rallying to support "Our Guv" not because they know the facts but merely because they feel a sense of tribal loyalty. Ugh.

I never want a following like that, and fortunately, I don't have to worry about that : )

I'm happy to go on speaking my mind.

Um, the problem with the Alice story isn't that I'm "whining" because I "hold a grudge" OR "suffered damages" of...uh...about $7.18 US because I paid what could have been a contribution for Desmond. About 8 of us got together and paid this basically normal price for some land to prevent a casino from staying there and blighting the view and causing more newbie traffic and intrusions. That's all. People do it all the time; Desmond couldn't see his way clear to engaging in this bit of civic good works, because he preferred to be a smug ass-fuck about it. That's all.

No, the story is merely valuable in showing Desmond's true nature. The way he behaves to long-time business partners and neighbours. His smugness, superiority, and indifference. His selfishness over a petty little matter. I know I'm not mistaken that this particular feature of Desmond is something I'm not the only one to notice or have been impacted by. We all have our faults. We can be charitable about our friends' failings. But because Desmond is constantly bustling around with inflated self-importance like the Munchkin Mayor of Oz, I feel I have to speak out on occasion.

In fact, he *did* have an interest in this sim *because he left his store in Alice for a long time after that*. And even though you'd think he'd care about his store, which was up on the top of the hill, being in an area that looked good, in fact, he didn't care if the sim were blighted, and people visiting his store saw the blight, then bought his house to go put on his more secure island.

I actually see this more now than I did at the time, where I saw his refusal to help out merely as being stubborn tekkie contrariness. Of course, I saw all his deliberately negative advertising about the mainland, where he created all kinds of Victorian engraving pictures showing horror at mainland -- and took a diabolical and malicious glee in sticking it to a nice neighbourhood which was still nice which he had enjoyed for years, and making it seem that there was no safety from the horror of the mainland except in this Victorian RP.

Desmond imagines this was a brilliant form of marketing. In fact, it was unnecessary. There is a niche that will move into Steampunk and pay more for it. Other people move into islands that look worse than the mainland just because all they care about is placing a house they will cyber in with closed shades on a flat white beach.

The negative advertising is exactly like the tactic Anshe used putting sticker-shock prices on mainland that she monopolized in the new southern continent a few years ago, and putting a teleporter/portal board thing on the land taking people to her new islands which were far less in cost. That way she got to prevent anyone else from entering the mainland waterfront market AND drove customers to her islands.

It's just cunning and sharp business practice of the sort practiced by shrewd burghers everywhere, but it makes for a certain nastiness in the neighbourhood.

BTW, there are no shortage of people in Caledon, current and ex, that privately tell me that they agree with my take on Desmond.

Desmond's worst behaviour, of course, has been saved for my blog. He imagines that if he bashes me regularly and often on my blog, he can earn street cred as being part of what he imagines is the Hate Prok Vox Populi. In fact, it just makes him look bad...period. He is so smug and self-satisfied he doesn't realize that. Because people don't say this to his face.

I left Caledon when Desmond behaved like a dick, but there were more reasons. I saw people making tacky, non-theme builds and getting a pass. I saw rococco bad Grecian Ionic columns getting let in. I saw ugly grass-textured boxes getting let in. And I thought, hmm, look who's talking about leaving the mainland due to blight?

I still enjoy visiting Caledon now and then and seeing the better builds and shops and chucking at the stuff that Desmond has allowed to "pass". By and large, Caledon is a good thing. Desmond is a force people find generally positive. I don't.

[Prokofy Neva]

Desmond is giving a terribly self-serving version of his "saving" of Alice.

Some of the land he let go or gave to friends who he imagines "saved" Alice let it go, and we got one of the worst infestations of ad farm exortionists on the grid.

Desmond did no one any special favours by having his friends live there; they lived there because they found it a nice PG sim which generally I worked to keep up -- a Linden living there also helped.

The incident in Alice isn't something I'm "upset" about -- it's more that I return to it again and again to show the duplicitous and smug nature of Desmond--but then, for the more alert set, I don't need to keep proving that.

It wasn't about some dun in the middle of the night that made no sense. If Desmond couldn't understand by then that a person with whom he'd previously enjoyed a cordial and helpful business relationship wouldn't ask him for something like this

It's his repeated, stubborn, arrogant ass-fuck insistence -- that he engages in here once again! -- that only he understands "the principle involved" and that we are somehow "people who dont' get principles". It's so fucking retarded, given that I'm demonstrably one of the most visible people who stood on the principle always and everywhere never to buy out ad extortionists. It was me, not Desmond, who bought cheaper auction land around the worst infestation of them, in order to cover the area up with trees -- and wait. I waited 2 years or more for some of those idiots to finally be removed by the Lindens. When they charged "only $10" or "only $25" per meter, I waited. This was long after Desmond left.

It's that priggish insistence on a principle that in fact I live by, as if I didn't understand it or wasn't willing to abide it, that makes Desmond so insufferable, and sets him up to be blasted again by me -- because he's an ass-fuck for doing that. I know it, and you know it.

It has to do with a basic sense of good will towards people, of not assuming the worst of them after you've dealt for them. Desmond assumed that a) I was feeding an extortionist b) had no sense of principle c) would dun him for this -- and that's what is intolerable. It's like Hiro Pendragon claiming that I was stealing textures, an utteraly false claim. When people do that, they permanently stay on the enemy list.

Desmond's notion that he "helped the view" by keeping his rather overblown Victorian houses with rather amateurish texturing in Alice is, well, his notion.

The idea that Desmond isn't whistling to his goons in Caledon to come bang on my blog is absurd. He has a dog whistle. It can be heard only by dogs.

One neat bit of tap-dancing that Desmond has distracted from is that he signed a contract with the Lindens to provide services to newbies on his private continent that essentially jeopardizes the status of every single other volunteer helping and content production group on the grid.

Desmond undermined the heart of Second Life by doing this, and doing this deliberately -- and with Carl's help, exploiting Carl into the bargain, because he uses Carl's NCI labour and content for free to help sell his rentals. Pretty shabby.

So I won't be surprised if Desmond cooks up some other self-serving obsequious caper with the Lindens.

[Lum Lumley]

To hit your seemingly inevitably off-handed personal attacks first...

If you take your SL-hate glasses off for a minute

I'll have you know it took weeks of prowling Japanese sims to find these.

http://www.lumthemad.net/images/glasses_001.png

Also, I never was a volunteer in an MMO. The piece you linked to was where I was expressing empathy for the pain of others I had talked to in researching the piece. So no need to make it personal.

Now then:

As you noted, the law only applies when Linden is paying volunteers to do the work of paid employees. However, doesn't Linden also have staff to do the same thing "moles" do? Seems like a pretty direct analog to me, and whether or not there's actual precedent, you can't fault them for erring on the side of caution.

It also shouldn't affect random altruists who want to "help newbies", as long as that is completely outside of Linden Lab's supervision and organizational structure (which is probably why they jettisoned the Mentor program as well, which *was* a pretty direct analog to the UO volunteer program, complete with associated drama).

So - volunteering, fine, volunteering to be a Junior Linden - not so fine. Something I'd think you'd be all over given your consistent condemning of FICness.

[Prokofy Neva]

Lum, I've read your article in the past, and read it twice *again* in the last day. And you just aren't clear about your own relationship to this particular volunteer program. Here's what you write:

"I disagree with Myschyf on there being no altruists in gaming or in life in general. For one thing, I grew out of my suicidal fascinations by discovering the altruistic parts of myself. When I helped others, I found parts of myself that did not deserve to die. Maybe altruism is inherently selfish, but that does not make it any less noble. Helping others is good. Helping others makes one good. It’s not a bad way to start crawling out of the escape hatch."

So perhaps you meant to speak only in a general, theoretical sort of way.

But...you are still to blame. You are blame for much of what is sick and dysfunctional about the game/blogosphere/forums thing by...helping to uphold the whole sorry mess with your dysfunctional high-profile blog. And...empathizing with these volunteers as if they were selfless helpers of mankind when they weren't. Injured, but not innocent...

In fact, I now think maybe I was wrong to credit you with insight. In fact I'm almost positive now I am according to you an insight which in fact you may not have.

It's also not clear, because I am not steeped in UO lore like you obviously are, what the "we" is, and whether you are *in* the volunteer program or *supervising it* or what the "we" is all about when you write:

"We used to chronicle some of the worst offenses commited by little tinpot Sosarian dictators here on occasion. Around the beginning of the year, we stopped. Why?

Well, for one thing, it got better. Gordon Walton, head of customer service, and Jessica Mulligan, at the time head of the volunteer programs, were both hired by Origin in the fall of last year, and set the cleanup of the volunteer program as one of their highest priorities"

I gues you're saying here then:

o you had an opinion about the volunteer program but were not in it
o you did not supervise it, even being a game god in other settings.
o you were a critic of it as a player

Remind me again what your UO connection is? From what I gather, you were kind of the Prokofy Neva of Ultima Online, amirite? Because when you write "we" it's not clear to the unitiated.

As for your beliefs that the UO lawsuit matches the Linden situation, I disagree.

All volunteer programs are corrupt in games and worlds, and absolute volunteer programs corrupt absolutely. We all know that. From Active Worlds on down. BUT, the Lindens can simply *let be* those that did self-organize, and at least put their content on their infohubs. The analogy I draw is to one of the practice of Internet linking. You don't sign a contract with every single person you've decided to mention in a link on your blog or feature as a regular set of recommended links. That's the spirit in which it should be done.

As for Junior Linden, the Lindens blurred this distinction by having a really untenable system of hiring residents to be Lindens. I call them Lindesidents. Those people would use those positions and their old famous resident alts to enhance their power and even financial gain, from what we can tell. At one point Cory Ondrejka bragged that one third of the staff of 60 or something at that time were residents. That's not something to brag about; that's a dysfunction and a cult.

And you haven't been paying attention to me for the last five years as I've done nothing but blast regularly and awful the sick Mentors and Volunteers systems, as they involved rackets -- people gained a perch in the hubs in order to sling landmarks to their stores and pitch their products to newbies in the worst sort of way. They also used these positions to threaten and bully others.

I'll never forgot going to a tenant's house who was overprimming a sim and forcing other people's builds to return, being a dick, and having his aggressive little twit girlfriend Mentor tell me that if I ejected her boyfriend she would sic her Lindens on me. Nor, of course, forget the Mentor Shaun Altman who mercilessly griefed my sims with ad extortion and sim crashes and such with the Woodburies until even the Lindens had to remove him from the group.

OK, I will admit those Japanese eyeglasses are hugely cool with the ornate wire work there even more cool than the usually cool Japanese wire rim glasses. Ok, so which sim did you find these on? Ok, so you won't tell me. I will find them anyway. Never mind. And I will get them in a custom colour that will be more cool than yours. So there.

[Wrath Constantine]

So, I see your sense of "goodwill towards people" involves profanity and name calling. Truly a pillar of the community there. Desmond hadn't even mentioned this blog in Caledon. Another resident had, and Des was actually rather calm about it. He didn't send us to wiz on your leg. Not in the least.

As one of the many who volunteer time at Caledon Oxbridge, I can tell you we do it simply for the joy of it. Helping people get started is just a way of passing on the legacy left us by those that helped us when we were new. Very few of those that come through Oxbridge end up staying in Caledon because we don't offer shooting sims or "teh s3x". Those that do stay, do so because of how they were treated and what they see here. They go about, explore, hit up the mainland... Then come back after getting sick of the banlines and blingtards found in so many other locations. The ones that come back and make a home in Caledon represent less than 5% of Oxbridge traffic. Some go to Steelhead. Some go to Babbage. Most go elsewhere looking for shoot'em-ups, cybering, or god-knows what else. And that's fine. At least they now know the basics of SL, and may even come away with a sense of courtesy and community.

As far as Des self-promoting, why not? It's an expensive risk, owning and managing 49 sims. Of course he needs to get folks in, keep the sims filled, otherwise it would very likely put him in the poor house. That's just the way it is. If he turns a profit, GREAT! He's certainly put in enough time taking care of our needs that this has become a second job. One that he could do in his undies and slippers, sure. But still a job. I don't see Caledon ads popping up anywhere. I don't see Des riling up residents of another sim to get them to his blog so he can sell them a lamp. (Nice texture on that btw, but the shape is less than pleasing.) And I certainly don't see Des letting loose the f-bombs or accusations of sexual proclivities. You've got crass character, he has class and charisma. I think he wins.