Wrights and Wrongs

This is apparently the future gift shop, though not marked as such, nor are there any cards here explaining *this* part. The sign says MUSEUM; it is part of the museum. The Breeze replicate appears to be fully part of the museum complex and has a display in the wing opposite this room from FLW's life. These items by Frey Bravin are for sale.

Below the fold, I'm parking a copy of the latest replies on the thread about the new Frank Lloyd Wright museum, because the Lindens are likely to remove them. Here we have Troy Vogel screaming, accusing me of defamation, and threatening legal action. Sigh. Why? Because...I asked why this museum looked like a museum of his furniture to sell his furniture in his store because....the museum is filled with his furniture and his store is right next to it. I also asked about Frey Bravin selling his furniture in the museum, and not making it clear where the proceeds are going.

It's right to ask these questions about a project that the Lindens have advertised on their "Eduscape" blog about "Education," which claims to be an "educational" project. It's normal, and just. That it would turn into this sort of raging and screeching isn't about me, but is about the recurring problem of Linden favouritism, lack of due diligence and awareness of basic ethical issues, and a culture of unaccountability among some creators who get Linden favouritism. That's all. It's always been about that, and continues to be. It never gets better. Each time an incident like this comes up, instead of seeing the Lindens answering questions simply and swiftly, we see threats, bans, and thugs. We see some residents getting their businesses favourited at expense of others. Why is this necessary? They could achieve their same goals of fronting some particularly talented people they like and feel help their world just as easily by making sure to attend to the optics and ethics.

When asked whether any of these builds involved unauthorized copying, we get a vague, incomplete, defensive and even beligerent response. I'm actually not the one who raised the issue of the designs and the copyrights -- others did, and the Lindens let it stand without comment so far. Here's all we've been given on the rights question:

Pathfinder Linden: Have you reached out to the real life estate of Frank Lloyd Wright?  What do they think about this project in Second Life?

Frey Bravin: Yes, we have established contact with members of The Frank Lloyd Wright Preservation Trust and The Frank Lloyd Wright Foundation, they are very supportive in our goal of exposing the works of Mr. Wright to people worldwide.

Kamael Khevious says then:

I hate to be a downer, but FLW's works are all copyrighted by  various organizations, so support from the Frank Lloyd Wright Preservation Trust and the Frank Lloyd Wright Foundation doesn't mean much. For example, the Western Pennsylvania Conservancy holds the rights to the Kaufman house.  While I don't know whether the people in question have cleared the permissions for use of things like floorplans and photos, I'd strongly suggest LL pay more attention to possible (and I emphasize "possible" because I am NOT making accusations here) DMCA violations before publicizing builds like this one.

Cincia Singh says:

Kamael that's not being a downer, it's due diligence. With all the drama about DMCA in SL you would think something like this would have been thoroughly vetted.The sign at the front entrance acknowledges two copyright holders out of the many who have rights to FLW's materials. Do either of them hold copyright to the structures or their likenesses. The text in the notecard would seem to cover only the use of the name Frank Lloyd Wright and "his" likeness ... not the likeness of the structures.

As for the quality of the build ... not bad. It's not what I would call "intricately detailed" though.

Frey then says:

Let me assure you, before this project was started I went out of my way to ensure that there would be no potential copyright and /or licence issue.

Well, do you have the rights to the *buildings replicated with prims in SL* or not? Or just to the pictures of FLW and his buildings in RL? I agree with Cincia that what is given out on site isn't sufficient to clarify this matter.

Frey tried to TP me and wrangle me into an argument inworld and demanded to give me a tour, but I'm not interested in getting harangued. I went back later and confirmed: inside the museum there is a store with the sign Frank Lloyd Wright with four pieces of his furniture for sale. For sale. With proceeds to go to him. And no notecard that says anything different.

What he is literalizing about, evidently, is his concept that the Breeze replication is "not the museum". Huh? That's a strange thing to be claiming about a room off the foyer that has a big sign FRANK LLOYD WRIGHT MUSEUM on it. Hello? And...the entire area is a museum, of both pictures and history posters on the wall and the builds themselves. Suddenly, the Breeze replica 'isn't part of the museum"? but that's not how it is presented or described.

And once again: it's *OK* to sell content in this museum, or in the replicas of the buildings adjacent to what Frey might somehow formally call only "the museum," but...it's not clear that the proceeds go to him personally, or the tier. And once again, I confirmed that Troy Vogel's store is just a few meters away from the entrance.

Here's another aspect of all this: if you follow the link in the Linden blog, you land here at the main entrance of the museum:

http://slurl.com/secondlife/DiLemma%20City/60/241/22

That's where I landed the first time, and remembered the name of the sim, "Dilemma".

The next time I came, I typed Dilemma into the map, so as not to have to go looking for the blog SLURL again, and now I landed here, in front of the main entrance *to Breeze*, which is behind the large main building of the museum:

http://slurl.com/secondlife/DiLemma%20City/128/128/21

which is right in front of the Breeze, and the furniture for sale, and kitty-korner to Troy's store.

Looking at the sim's entire layout, I would have to say it defies the imagination not to call the Breeze building part of the Museum. After all, as you walk into this building, it has displays of FLW's buildings and cards about his life and a guestbook on the one wing. Hello! That's a museum! Right across the foyer there is what perhaps will be a "gift shop" but isn't labelled as such and has signs that say, as I've reiterated, "FLW Museum". All of this is in the same complex, with the same FLW designs on the roof as the rest of the build.

In any event, if they'd like to take lessons on literalism and distraction, they can go see Dale Innis, I think it's obvious to anyone who visits the sim: it's a furniture store mall connected to a museum, and the relationship of the stores and their creators and the sales and the museum upkeep *are not clear*.They see it differently -- as a museum with some furniture stores connected to it perfectly legitimately and a gift shop that they have in their mind that didn't open yet or get built -- because they are inside the project, and they don't care how they look to the outside. They have their little coterie of friends; they have their Lindens; apparently they even have the real FLW trust. This is Second Life.

I'll be interested -- but in a weary sort of way -- to see what happens next. No doubt Blue will simply erase all the comments because Troy threatens criminal action and I answer his threats. And he'll lock the thread. He may or may not ban me; it's immaterial. If Blue attempts to give me a little talk inworld, I will mute him. Wait, you can't do that to Lindens. Well, I simply will log off.

I couldn'lt help thinking of how this was somewhat of a replay of four years ago, when I was banned also for speaking out about favouritism, and also about a Pathfinder thread. Back then, Pathfinder was smarmily touting a scholarly journal with an article mentioning several SL residents, the usual favourites, Aimee Weber, FlipperPA Peregrine, and Cubey Terra. The whole reason those particular much-feted and much-displayed FIC, constantly on the website front page and pitched in the news constantly by the Lindens, could end up in this article, was because they were...fronted by the Lindens. This scholar, Betsy Book, who happened to go on and become the VP of There.com, didn't just happen to notice them -- they were pitched. As if this was favouritism enough, Pathfinder flogged it *some more* by exclaiming about the piece on the forums in the sort of boosting for the Lindens have become famous.

The article was about how to succeed in business in Second Life. So I responded in another thread (because the first one was hopelessly sidetracked) by noting that if you wanted to succeed, getting the Lindens to pitch you to their friends, and then after the article comes out, boost it on the forums, would ensure maximum success for your business. I was savaged with hateful posts by all the FIC of the day who were pals with the Lindens and the feted ones, and I noted, in passing, that Aimee's name was "like" "every prom queen you love to hate", and that was part of her brand. I made one more post about the danger of monopolies in SL (some of which went on to become in fact monopolies, and one key one, Slexchange.com, was bought out by the Lindens and became the Lindens' own shopping site XStreetsl.com). (BTW, I also uncovered this gem of Torley flogging Aimee's panties.)

I'd like to think that in five years, the Lindens have grown up. That they can no longer cave to screeching bullying over-entitled children that they've spoiled rotten. That they are capable of mature moderation, and differentiating between somebody screeching about "libel" and the actual state of affairs, which is the optics of this sim aren't good and they need to make it right as they've linked their brand to it. You would *hope* that Blue, as beaten down as he is in the Linden setting, will be able to come on and say something like "We've determined that the materials used from FLW are done with permission, and we're inquiring about the replicas of the builds" -- because frankly, Frey nor the Lindens have answered that adequately --there's a different between pictures from the Trust about FLW's life and his RL buildings, and replicas in SL -- we can't be sure the FLW Trust understands that - it's not been explicated. In fact, the defensiveness of Frey and curtness of the answer only raises more questions.

Next, you'd hope Blue would say something like "We want to assure everyone that the tip jars go to supporting the museum, which is a non-profit venture, and that residents who have donated their furniture and time to the work of the museum have also put their stores on this sim, so if you want to shop for furniture inspired by FLW, you can help support SL's craftsmen as well". But that sort of finesse and maturity is likey beyond the Lindens, and they are likely to use far cruder methods of simply removing everything, and evening using ban sticks.

Does Frey and his group have the rights to replicate and display to the public this design of Fallingwater by FLW, or not? Yes or no.

Here's the dialogue inworld, FWIW

-- Instant message logging enabled --
[20:30]  Frey Bravin: (Saved Tue Jul 28 23:16:54 2009) I can stand here all night and do this
[20:31]  Prokofy Neva: er, stand here all night and do what?
[20:31]  Prokofy Neva: your previous messages got lost I get
[20:31]  Prokofy Neva: I replied to the thuggish threats of libel from your friend Troy Vogel. The public has the right to ask questions about commercial operations described as "educational". Deal with it.
[20:32]  Prokofy Neva: I'm not interested in your personal tours.
[20:32]  Prokofy Neva: People that have to defend themselves by thuggish threats and outrageous claims discredit themselves
[20:32]  Prokofy Neva: I'm happy to see them in court.
[20:32]  Prokofy Neva: : )
[20:33]  Frey Bravin: And people that are so stupid that they csnt read a sign are reallp pretty sad
[20:33]  Prokofy Neva: Um, Frey, you desk set is for sale right in the lobby, and I read any or all notecards on site.
[20:33]  Frey Bravin: Dude, that is NOT the museum
[20:33]  Prokofy Neva: I didn't see anything that says "this $1000 goes to the museum" -- if it does, great, but two steps away is Troy's Store, and all the other stores
[20:33]  Prokofy Neva: deal with it
[20:34]  Frey Bravin: Your wrong
[20:34]  Frey Bravin: No you need to deal with it
[20:34]  Prokofy Neva: Dude, it is the museum, as it is within a few steps when you land, if you are "still under construction" that's fine but...it's not marked. It's right when you land from the link.
[20:34]  Prokofy Neva: well look at the layout, Troy's store is right across from the museum, hello?
[20:34]  Frey Bravin: Pleas come here
[20:34]  Prokofy Neva: Just make up a card and explain it.
[20:34]  Prokofy Neva: I visited last night, I'm not interested in wrangling with you about what's obvious and what anyone can see.
[20:34]  Frey Bravin: Of whatever
[20:35]  Frey Bravin: your not worth te time if your not willing too see that your wrong
[20:35]  Prokofy Neva: Your desk is for sale?
[20:35]  Prokofy Neva: the proceeds go where?
[20:35]  Prokofy Neva: your desk is right near the landing?
[20:35]  Prokofy Neva: why deny all that Frey, it's stupid
[20:35]  Prokofy Neva: however *you* see it, it *looks different* to someone outside your little hothouse group. Deal with it, and fix it.
[20:36]  Prokofy Neva: That's all.
[20:36]  Prokofy Neva: Instead of being angry asses, all of you should just provide two lines of explanation and make it clear.
[20:36]  Prokofy Neva: if you are not promoting your businesses and only engaging in "education," then...explain why all your stuff is for sale on this sim. That's all. Basic ethical stuff.
[20:36]  Frey Bravin: Your na fucking idiot
[20:37]  Prokofy Neva: Im' not going to be drawn in further with some wrangle with you inworld. I've answered you on the Linden's blog and my blog, and if you have further comments, leave them there.

Here's a dump from the blog, sorry, don't have time to make it look pretty now, just wish to save it.

Reply
Jul 28, 2009 11:05 AM Prokofy Neva    says:

I think it would be good if Pathfinder and the museum group members would clarify the situation at this sim.

It's a mall of stores, with all their furniture for sale in it. The museum is in the middle of the sim, with their furniture in it and donation boxes.

The donation boxes presumably go to help pay tier and upload costs and such. The furniture sales presumably go to the museum founders.

 Reply
Jul 28, 2009 1:53 PM Frey Bravin    says in response to Prokofy Neva:

It's a mall of stores, with all their furniture for sale in it.

 

Wrong. there are several shops on one side of the sim, most of which are empty

 

The museum is in the middle of the sim, with their furniture in it and donation boxes.

Wrong, the museum site is on the west side of the sim, not the center. The building you were in had you taken the time to look you would have discovered is known as Breeze. While it it does contain one gallery for museum exhibits , it also contains another partly finished roon that will at some point become a gift shop offering tee-shirts and such. these items will either be free or have a small charge for then. Most likely free.  Yes there is furniture there, however again had you bothered to look you would have found that its not for sale and is there for people to sit on. Strange that people seem to enjoy sitting there and talking. Silly of me for proving that for our visitors. Donations boxes, yes of course. See below.

 

The donation boxes presumably go to help pay tier and upload costs and such.

 

Correct, all funds that we raise go to help pay tier and upload costs and such and only that. We make as much as we can that waqy to help to cover operating expenses from Donations and shop rentals.

 

The furniture sales presumably go to the museum founders.

 

We have four pieces of furniture that were made for us that we sell. That is the ONLY furrniture tht we sell, and those are licated in the space that will become the gift shop.  There is NOTHING sold in the museum itself. None of the buildings on the sim are offered for sale. We receive nothing from the shop owners outside of a small amout of rental fee iwhich is made in the form of a donation to the museum in an amount that they choose. We receeive nothing from their sales. The shops there are there for our visitors to enjoy and that hhave no connection or realtionship to the Museum in any way, shape or form.

 

Should you have any additional questions I would be more than happy to provide you or anyone else interested with a personal tour of the sim.

   Jul 28, 2009 6:29 PM Prokofy Neva    says in response to Frey Bravin:

Frey,

 

While you're obviously more familiar with your sim than I am, I visited it, and what you say isn't the case, as anyone can see.

 

The museum sits in the middle of the sim, and there is a mall of stores, with FLW-like furniture for sale in every store.

 

The main furniture exhibited is that of Troy Vogel, and his store is right kitty-corner to the main entrance to the museum.

 

Your desk set is for sale right in the lobby of the main entrance, where one lands from the link given here.

 

Anyone can see this by teleporting there, so it's not worth arguing about and distracting from with other points.

 

I think it's great that you have a gift shop; all museums should have gift shops, and ways to support themselves. Indeed, my critique of Svarga, for example, is that it didn't sell *enough* content and commercialize *enough* for the sake of saving itself.

 

When you say you "only have four pieces of furniture for sale," Frey, you have to realize that anyone can teleport to this sim and see that the entire effect is different than you are portraying it. Immediately when you land, you walk into a foyer. Immediately within a few steps is your desk for sale. That is *inside the museum*. If you mean that this is a "future gift shop under construction," well, there are no gift shop signs or cards or construction signs or anything explaining this, so it sure looks as if you are selling furniture by yourself in the museum.

 

If you technically on the grounds of the museum have only 4 pieces for sale, great, but immediately adjacent to the museum you have Troy Vogel's stores, with certainly more than "4 pieces" and a whole mall of stores with dozens and dozens of pieces for sale. That's the case.

 

As I've stated several times now: there's nothing wrong with mixing commerce with education to make ends meet.

 

However, I think you really need to be clear on where the proceeds go. In a sim where you have tip jars everywhere with 20,000 of contributions in them *and* your own content for sale, you need to be clear what proceeds go where, and who benefits. That you dont' make as many sales as you would on your main store, i.e. as Vogel does on his store island, is totally beside the point. You need to be clear about what goes where, that's all. Those are the basic requirements of any RL operation, and as you've invoked RL connections, and Pathfinder has also celebrated the RL connections, then be like RL in that respect, too.

 

I don't need a personal tour of the sim. You need to answer two simple question heres: 1) how are you paying for tier and uploads? If it is by donations to tip jars and sale of *some* furniture then it should be clearly demarcated 2) where do the proceeds from all the sales of all the content of your museum group members, including yourself? If it is in part to the museum, but part to your own business, that's fine *just make it clear*. You don't; indeed, it looks like the museum is a loss-leader for all your businesses.

 

You have an island that looks like a typical mall island, with stores, with items for sale *and* a museum, and lots of displays for buildings. People with stores there benefit from the sales of their furniture, and those sales do not go to the work of the museum or perpetuating the memory of Frank Lloyd Wright. You need to make that clear to the public.

Edit Reply
Jul 28, 2009 7:39 PM Troy Vogel    says in response to Prokofy Neva:

I am all for hearing all the voices but we seem to be hearing one VERY loud voice here, a voice that already has her own sim, her own blog, her forum etc etc etc.

 

I resent this uninformed, un-educated, and unkind tone of throwing my name and my brand around on a Linden Blog of all places. Especially when all of these speculative ugly accusatory and ungrounded posts were put on this blog and others without even getting my feedback first.

 

This is defamation and I will proceed accordingly. Either these ungrounded comments accusing me of I do not know what are removed or I am going to take legal action against the parties above who have insinuated that my business is based on using, marketing, and gaining revenue from the Frank Lloyd Wright name. This is simply not true, furthermore Prok is neither a fair, nor balanced, nor a designated point of authority to question anyone's business in any platform with the current pretense authority she seems to be pursuing in this blog comments section.

 

I request all the comments to this post be immediately removed and further comments be disabled. If not, I will protect my name and my business using legal channels.

 

I am not owner of the FLW museum, my only affiliation is being a member of the group which as we all know is required to put items on group land. duh!I did not use FLW brand or name to market anything. My presence on the FLW museum sim is simply a favor to a friend a bunch of people who are passionate about FLW.

 

Lindens, remove this monologue already.

 

Thanks for your cooperation

 

Troy Vogel

Mission Home Store in Second Life

 Jul 28, 2009 8:27 PM Prokofy Neva    says in response to Troy Vogel:

The monologue started when Pathfinder decided to feature a museum involving one group of residents but refused to acknowledge in the blog that other residents for years have also been paying tribue to Frank Lloyd Wright in a number of ways, and even described it as "ground-breaking" as if no one else had ever been in Second Life on this topic before, including *Lindens* who made a widely-circulated replica of a FLW house distributed freely everywhere.

 

That's point number one.

 

Point number two is that it isn't a "monologue" nor "ugly" nor "lies" to ask for some very basic transparency and accuracy in portraying "educational" projects in Second Life when we see that they are displays of mainly one person's furniture, that there is furniture of the project director for sale in it, and that it's a sim with a variety of stores on it selling the content of people in a group who, on the one hand claim they are presenting an educational project (and with Linden backing) but on the other hand are selling their content commercially, with the sales going into their accounts.

 

I'm sorry, but you dont' get to claim protection of your brand and identity and silence criticism and questions when basic questions of public ethics are at stake.

 

While you can incite removal of my post, what you cannot do is remove the public's right to know, and the public's questioning of projects that seem to in fact create profit for a few under an educational cover.

 

As I've said a dozen times now, I'm *not* one of those Second Lifers who crabs about commerce on educational sims. I love commerce. I want there to be gift stores and if it takes selling a chair in every single room to pay the tier, sell the furniture.

 

Just put out two lines on a notecard, for example:

 

1) proceeds of all sales in the gift shop go to the upkeep of the museum for tier and uploads of textures, etc.

2) if you enjoy this look, shop in our neighbouring plaza where you will find replicas or items inspired by FLW and support the business of fine craftsmen in SL.

 

That's all. It makes it clear where the money goes -- in part to the museum, but in part into your pocket. It's ok that it go into your pocket. Just say so.

 

Troy, if you are not "running this museum" and merely joining the group to set prims, how are we to know that when every single room in this museum has just your furniture? The relationship of your business to this museum simply wasn't clear. It's not "trolling" or "illicit" or "performing a monologue" to ask basic questions of ethics around a museum where the optics only raise questions, and do not provide explicit answers.

 

As for these threats of legal action, they're absurd. There is a public sim, you are a public figure in Second Life with your furniture displayed as essentially the only furniture in a museum; it is described inaccurately as an "educational" sim; right next to the museum is your store with your furniture for sale with cash going to you, and then a bunch of other stores with replica or "inspired" designs of FLW for sale, to the profit of those creators. The exact nature of their relationship to the museum, the question of the copyright, all of these are not clear. People are right to ask about it; rather than trying to use Linden TOS or RL libel threats, you should be accountable for your actions when mixing commerce on an "educational sim".

  Jul 28, 2009 10:09 PM Barrington DeSantis    says in response to Prokofy Neva:

Prok, you are so wrong in your "facts" here.

1. The museum IS to one side of the sim, not in the "middle" as you presistently and inaccurately claim. Take a look at the SURL for the entrance: 32, 227, 21 - that's to the North West, as anyone with a basic understanding of sim coordinates would be able to tell you. Tp there - and you'll find the museum, exhibits and all, right in front of you.

2. The building you misguidedly claim to be the "museum [that] sits in the middle of the sim" is clearly labelled "Breeze Wine Bar and Galleries". Had you simply read the sign over the entrance, you would have realised this.A further clue that you were perhaps not in the museum itself might have come from the fact that none of the exhibits mentioned in the above report are actually in this building - and that being the case, some further investigation might have perhaps been in order before you started jumping to (erroneous) conclusions and writing-up inaccurate statements.

3. While Troy Vogel's furniture is indeed inside Breeze, so is furniture by Senuous Maximus - but none of it appears to be for sale. The only items for sale in this building are the desks, chair and table within the small area clearly signposted as "The Frank Lloyd Wright Museum of Second Life". In this, Frey is entirely accurate in his rebuttal of your claims. The only "crime" here is perhaps that "shop" hasn't been added to said sign.

4. Of the five house reproductions on display:

     - The Robie House is  furnished by Miltone Marquette, the creator;

     - The Jacob's House 1 is unfurnished;

     - The Seth Peterson Cottage has no furniture from Troy in it

     - The Jacob's House 2 has furnishing by it's creator, Miltone Matquette

     - The Kaufmann House contains furnishings by Lox Salomon and Ethos Erlanger

 

So unless Lox Salomon, Ethos Erlanger, Szabo Horn, Christy Lock and Sensuous Maximus are all Alts for Troy Vogel, you are very seriously misguided in your claim that "the main furniture exhibited is that of Troy Vogel".

5. Troy Vogel's sale products appear limited to the small store (singular, not pural as you state) he rents from Frey. As Frey has said, income from these rentals go towards the sim costs.

6. The small mall area is obviously segregated from the rest of the museum - it is in the NORTH EAST corner of the sim, separated from the exhibits by the aforementioned Breeze, and from the main museum building by a small dock area. Your inferrence (in your last paragraph) that the stores and museum displays are all mixed ad hoc is very far from the case.

7. As stated above, the entrance to the museum is located in the NORTH WEST corner of the sim. Vogel's store is thus hardly sitting "right kitty corner" to the museum entrance as you misguidedly (again) claim.

Given the depth of you generalisations and the inaccuracies of your statements - you are, after all, largely wrong on all your statements concerning the sim layout and content - I would respectfully suggest that a tour of the sim would be in order. If you can't bring yourself to admit that you are in error by taking such a tour, then at least take the time to look around in detail before dismissing it with what appears to be little more than a cursory glance.
Reply
Jul 28, 2009 10:41 PM Prokofy Neva    says in response to Barrington DeSantis:

Barrington,

I've visited the sim multiple times, anyone else can go and look themselves.

You, like Frey, seem to be browbeating and literalizing on the question of where buildings are located on the sim where content is for sale, instead of...answering why the content is for sale, who benefits, and what the sales are for.

Pathfinder says in this blog that the museum takes up the whole sim. It does. The buildings are all in the middle. Is it scientifically in the middle at 128/128? Who cares? Look at the sim and the layout and you can see it is the main attrraction. When you type the name of the sim, DiLemma, into the map list, you land right in front of the Breeze, meters from Troy's store and Frey's furniture for sale *in the museum building for sure*.

By focusing on the questions of whether something is "in the middle" or "to the northwest," you're missing the main point here: that Frey says that the Breeze building is "not in the museum" but that's just utterly misleading. You're also acting as if The Breeze and Troy Vogel's store are somehow not physically located right smack next to the main building of the museum. *But they are*. Furthemore, the Breeze is clearly part of the museum!

Go there. The Breeze  has a big sign saying "FLW Museum" *and* it has on the right as you enter a wing with FLW pictures from RL. On the left are four pieces of furniture, in a room with -- again -- the FLW Museum sign -- made by him and for sale. Does the sale from these pieces of furniture with him as creator set to sale for cash to him go to the support of the museum or to his business?

I stand by my claim that Troy Vogel is the creator of most of the furniture. Again, just go and look. Count them. All throughout the main building and the Breeze and other buildings is Troy's mission furniture. Yes, there are some of these other creators, but Troy's is the overwhelming visible and most in view, as he is in the main building of the museum, which is where you land if you follow the link from this blog.

Troy Vogel has one store, but the group has *stores* plural -- members of the group have stores throughout the plaza there directly adjacent to this museum. To somehow play that down or minimize it boggles the mind. It's right there, and it is clearly related.

The mall is not "small" but a large plaza with a huge replica of an FLW fountain. Go and look, people.

I didn't "misleadingly" say anything. The Breeze *is* in the museum.. It is a *part of the museum complex*. It is *a museum building marked with a sign FLW Museum*. It is a building *with displays of FLW's life".

I'm truly astounded that you'd use the sort of literalizing machinations of the JIRA to distract from the main issues at hand, so let me review them once again and try to get some actions:

1. Frey Bravin's furniture is for sale, in a building with the sign "Museum" called the Breeze, which is a part of the complex of the FLW Museum on the sim DiLemma, which has a display on the premises of that building showing picturs from FLW's RL, and is in what is evidently a future gift shop. Where will the proceeds from the sale of Frey's furniture go, to him or the museum?

2. Directly adjacent to the Breeze, right kitty corner to the main entrance of this museum building, is Troy Vogel's store. Do the proceeds from the sales of the furniture go to

 

The Lindens' servers don't care where a pixel renders in making assessments about education and commerce. They record where financial transactions go. The prims on this sim are set for individual residents. Do the Lindens paid into these furniture objects for sale go to those individuals, or to the support of the museum?

 

Answer the simple questions, and stop the Fisking and false claims that I am "inaccurate" or wrong because I've accurately identified a museum building as a museum building!. I haven't stated a single thing wrong here. I've been to the sim three times. I've examined, screenshot, and assesed the layout as anyone can.

 

The Breeze is a museum building, in the museum, and the landing from the map of that sim lands there directly in front of it, and Troy's store is nearby. It is a short walk from the main building of the museum, reachable from the link of this blog, to the Breeze and the stores. They are all part of the same sim, the same build, with the same group members.

Comments

[Prokofy Neva]

I'm saving the posts as they come up because they are likely to be removed and will post later, but check into this thread before it is deleted or locked if you can:

https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/community/education/blog/2009/07/24/new-museum-celebrating-the-work-of-frank-lloyd-wright-in-second-life#comment-765943

What continues to absolutely boggle the mind is that the Museum group members would continue to insist that their stores with their FLW replicas and "inspirations" in them have "nothing to do" with the museum.

It really makes the entire thing look more suspect than in fact I thought it was. Why on earth would they be so eager to disavow any relationship between Troy Vogel's store, with the same furniture in it as displayed in the museum itself, immediately adjacent to a clearly-marked museum buiding?

There is nothing wrong with Troy selling his furniture in, next to, around, on top of, this museum. It's ok. You just have to say -- do the proceeds go to Troy personally, or to the museum?!

Frey's furniture is indeed for sale in a building indeed market "museum" that he himself has said is the museum's "future gift shop". Now his blustering pal Barrington is saying "this is not a museum building" and also misrepresenting what I've queried, claiming I've said Troy's furniture is for sale in the museum. As the record demonstrates, I've pointed out that Troy's furniture is heavily displayed in the museum and sold in a store adjacent to it; Frey's furniture is what is for sale right in the museum building.

Good God, this is basic stuff people. Stop being such neuralgic children.

The creators of this sim seem to have a geography in their mind that doesn't link up their own interests or the sim's interests or the FLW interests. They've somehow compartmentalized it all in their mind and they are taking furious exception to the way it is perceived.

But the perception isn't just some subjective optical illusion on my part or other visitors' parts.

You can disagree to the extent to which it's a museum sim with shops, or a shopping sim with a museum but you cannot somehow decouple the intimate relationship of the shops and the museum buildings on this sim.

And once again, who is to blame for this? Not me. I've merely asked the obvious questions many of the members of the public will ask and are asking as they see the museum group members' stuff for sale in this sim.

The point isn't whether they benefit *more* from this sim than their own shops on other sims. The point is that this sim *does* personally benefit them, both literally with cash in sales as well as generally with reputation enhancement that also helps sales, even as they also simultaneously are helping the museum effort, and they need to segregate *that* and make it clear, and not pretend that the buildings' layout does it for you. It doesn't. Not when a room with furniture for sale in it across from FLW's picture and marked "FLW Museum" has Frey's stuff for sale, and not when Troy's shop is immediately kitty-corner to the entrance to this museum building clearly marked as such.

Scampering around and saying, variously, "this is the future gift shop" or "this isn't a museum building" just makes them look stupid and self-contradictory. If it isn't a museum building, how come it has displays and a museum sign in it?! If it isn't a museum building, how come one member says it is a gift shop?!

What this story is about is not about these particular resident buinesses being corrupt. But it is about them unabashedly putting some of their stores in to make a buck and relishing in the extra attention, traffic, and Linden windfall attention from the blog.

Is there anything wrong with that? Well, you would think they must feel that at some level or they wouldn't be scrambling now to appear as if they didn't benefit from this arrangement. They do. When you put your items for sale, you benefit. Even if they aren't for sale, when displayed, anyone can right click and go to your store. You benefit. It's GOOD to benefit in this manner, you just have to be normal and open about it.

Why is this so hard?!

Again, the key comes in the profile of Frey: "My real life pales in comparison to this."

Likely none of these people ever had to run an office, a business, or even work part-time in a museum gift shop. They aren't aware of how grown-up, real-life businesses operate with ethics and legal requirements. Gift shops in museums in real life have signs saying "10 percent go to the museum" or even the entire proceeds. THey don't have one of the artists in the museum get to open his gallery on the premises and have the New York Times and the mayor laud him in interviews and articles and get traffice for only his works to sell alone among all works in that museum and elsewhere.

Everybody, Pathfinder first and foremost, wants to bring reality to Second Life and tether Second Life to reality, even trampling on the replications that people had in the past that weren't so tethered. All well and good. But if you bring in reality to your advantage, then bring in the rest of reality that demands ethics and laws from real life.

[cube3]

Remember though, IF 50 is the new 30, then 30 is the new 10.

extended childhood, peter pan( Mjackson syndrome) call it what you like.

its a drving factor in culture today, virtual or real. But in virtual culture the "anonymous" interface hides the obvious.

[Smoochy]

The museum is on the corner of the sim, the Breeze is in the middle of the sim next to the shops and fountain. Just in case you get confused there is a map to the left of the actual museum so you can find your way around :)

[Prokofy Neva]

Um, "Smoochy" dear, anonymous posters are not permitted here after one warning. You have to use your first and last recognizable SL name.

I'm glad you've confirmed again that the Breeze, which is a MUSEUM building with a MUSEUM exhibit and a MUSEUM sign on it is in the middle of the sim near 128/128 because people kept denying that : )

In case you're confused, open up the map and see how this middle-of-the-sim museum building functions as the de-facto main entrance *to the complex* of buildings which is how Pathfinder originally described it -- because it *is* a complex of buildings, all of which are the museum *and its shops* that support the museum group creators. Hello?

If you are challenged in this regard, right click on the furniture, and see the creators who are represented in the museum, its furniture, its buildings, and its replicas, then use the handy map to go to the shops and see *the same* people selling stuff.

That's fine, but...they should explain in a simple sign what that's all about, how it relates to the real FLW Trust, and copyright.