"What is Smart?"

Stick with the transcript below, it's got a lot of food for thought on the Singularity and all its works -- which are troubling indeed. Skip through and get all the links and read the suggested readings -- they are helpful.

I suppose the most sobering thing I've learned out of this discussion is just how many people have been recruited to this cult. People that I respect, like Will Wright and people that I at least think are more or less reasonable, even if I don't agree with them, like Henrick Bennetsen. And I wonder how cultists do this. And I think one of the ways they do this in a recession is by promising power, influence, and money. In fact, they don't even need for their to be a recession for those things to work...

I'm given real pause about all this stuff as I see it catching on as a popular meme. Why, even Nicholas Kristof is speciously invoking the determinism of brain chemisty basically to incite hatred of those who don't believe as he does in the Congress, not voting as he thinks they should. In other words, if you are an unevolved cretin, you are at the mercy of your brain-wired chemical indifference to threats you can't see, smell, or feel on your skin, like global warming. But if you are presumably a more evolved creature benefitting from, oh, Twitter or something, or perhaps just New York Times columns that enlighten you, you will overcome brain chemistry in a magical way and vote for more global warming programs.

The commenters there say it better than I do: we need to be afraid of this kind of thinking because it's deadly. It's like Hitler's Nazi ideology of a superior race, based on science. The difference is merely that instead of "race" we have "political view" or "class" -- and we have science being invoked in its defense. Pretty soon some scientist will come along to tell us in a Twitter and not a peer-reviewed article that people who read lots of articles warning about global warming and who recycle have undergone subtle chemical changes in their brains, and isn't that a good thing lol.

[18:35]  Prokofy Neva: hi
[18:35]  brinda Allen: hi prok
[18:35]  Clubside Granville: Howdy
[18:35]  brinda Allen: new Avie?
[18:35]  Clubside Granville: Prok even has a new profile pic!
[18:35]  brinda Allen: disquise isnt working lol
[18:36]  Clubside Granville: Mine hasn't changed since I first created it... lol
[18:36]  Prokofy Neva: yes I'm an Afghan now : )
[18:36]  Prokofy Neva: well I'm sort of a Tajik Pakistani something I think
[18:36]  brinda Allen: :-)
[18:37]  Clubside Granville: So the SLCC just keeps getting better and better, huh? lol
[18:37]  Prokofy Neva: oh I am boycotting it now
[18:38]  Clubside Granville: I guess I'm gonna have to file a ticket about Iris... no one is rezzing there anymore, the Infohub marker is still missing... and Guy Linden never got back to me
[18:40]  brinda Allen: on someone lol
[18:41]  Prokofy Neva: I don't have Metanomics on my groups and I'm out of groups
[18:41]  Prokofy Neva: and someone IM that group
[18:41]  Prokofy Neva: here's the message I was sending:
[18:41]  Prokofy Neva: Good evening! time for the Sutherland Dam discussion. Tonight's topic Ray Kurzweil and The Singularity -- why has SLCC invited this controversial speaker as a keynoter? Isn't this a cult? Can the future of SL be free of such sectarianism? Use SEARCH/PLACES and find THAT DAMMED PROKOFY to tp yourself.
[18:41]  Clubside Granville: Sending now
[18:41]  Prokofy Neva: it is SO HARD to get groups to work
[18:41]  Prokofy Neva: I have to try 10 times
[18:41]  brinda Allen: Hi Angela :-)
[18:41]  Angela Talamasca: Great suject, prok!
[18:41]  Angela Talamasca: hi brinda. :-)
[18:41]  Angela Talamasca: I read your articles with interest :-)
[18:42]  Prokofy Neva: did you see that Kurzweil is invited to SLCC
[18:42]  Angela Talamasca: oh yes, i posted a little rambling article of my own. lol
[18:44]  Tuxedo Ninetails: Hi there Prokofy
[18:44]  Prokofy Neva: groups are so damn frustrating
[18:44]  Prokofy Neva: they bounce
[18:44]  Prokofy Neva: constantly
[18:44]  Clubside Granville: What problems have you been having with groups?
[18:44]  Tuxedo Ninetails: Hi brinda, hi Clubside
[18:45]  Prokofy Neva: you can't post a message to them at all, they error out constantly
[18:45]  Clubside Granville: Howdy!
[18:45]  Prokofy Neva: eveyrone is complaining about this
[18:45]  brinda Allen: hi
[18:45]  Prokofy Neva: what's even more weird is that groups you are not even talking in, that don't even have chat and aren't open, also keep telling you they are erroring
[18:46]  Prokofy Neva: Hi Joel are you extropianized already lol?
[18:46]  Clubside Granville: There was that problem a week ago where it was closing sessions saying you didn't have permission, but other than the occasional lag/lost post I haven't been running into any problems lately
[18:46]  Prokofy Neva: what are you ?
[18:46]  Clubside Granville: Not that they don't need to re-write the whole chat system from scratch...lol
[18:46]  Joel Savard: just low arc...
[18:46]  Prokofy Neva: low arc eek
[18:46]  Joel Savard: faster region crossings where i was
[18:46]  Prokofy Neva: am I low arc? I have no idea
[18:46]  Prokofy Neva: I'm not an ARC nazi
[18:46]  Prokofy Neva: what do you press on to see your arc?
[18:46]  Prokofy Neva: Hi Tuxedo
[18:46]  Tuxedo Ninetails smiles
[18:46]  Joel Savard: advanced > rendering > info displays > avatar rendering cost
[18:47]  Prokofy Neva: oh ok right
[18:47]  Joel Savard: then it shows the rendering cost (rough complexity for viewer) in hover text
[18:47]  Prokofy Neva: yes I remember seeing a 772 dragon in Moosehead the other day
[18:47]  Clubside Granville: I'm afraid I don't know anything about this Kurzweil dude other than what you wrote Prok, so I'm here to listen... lol
[18:47]  Prokofy Neva: but Gwyn is always saying that ARC stuff odesn't matter anymore
[18:47]  Prokofy Neva: oh well I guess he is widely famous in small circles lol
[18:48]  Prokofy Neva: I was surprised that SLCC has invited him to speak. To me, it's like inviting a known kook and freak, someone out on the edge, but he is becoming more mainstream now I see, getting funding.
[18:48]  Prokofy Neva: He now has something called Singularity University where you pay $25,000 if you are selected to attend a 9 week course
[18:48]  Prokofy Neva: so much of it sounds like Scientology to me
[18:49]  Prokofy Neva: I remember I used to see these books about Singularity and here people rant about it but it seemed right up there with UFO stuff, this idea that nanobots would be injected into your bloodstream to prolong your life
[18:49]  Prokofy Neva: It's Heaven's Gate perhaps in a lite form
[18:49]  Clubside Granville: The LaRouche analogy worked for me... I always loved tormenting those idiots at the University of Maryland campus
[18:49]  Prokofy Neva: and then I saw David Orban, who has been on the Slintelligentsia's speaker list for years, is a big Kurzweil and singularity booster
[18:49]  Prokofy Neva: so he did a YOuTube of Kurzweil that he spreads everywhere
[18:50]  Prokofy Neva: of course Kurzweil and spimes that David Orban is pushign these days go together
[18:50]  Prokofy Neva: well to me it feels a lot like Lyndon Larouche, that cheery, self-confident culty aggressiveness
[18:50]  Prokofy Neva: it's just freaky
[18:50]  Clubside Granville: I guess I'm confused why his stuff is called "The Sigularity" when there's already a fairly destructive force in the galaxy with the same name... lol
[18:50]  Prokofy Neva: I cannot believe the SLCC organizers invited him, and it makes me wonder more than ever if the Lindens are a cult
[18:50]  Angela Talamasca: for Clubside => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity
[18:50]  Prokofy Neva: they ahev their cult-like features and of course are around these cults that have some following, the singularity is a popular idea
[18:51]  Prokofy Neva: for me, the singularity is a lot like the Rapture
[18:51]  Prokofy Neva: there are some fundamentalists who believe in the Rapture, and some don't
[18:51]  Prokofy Neva: the Singularity seems to me to be a faith-based divisive idea, like the Rapture
[18:51]  Angela Talamasca: arguably, civilization has already arrived @ the singularity. i.e., we are extremely dependent upon technology.
[18:51]  Crap Mariner: i plan on reading the book at first opportunity. not familiar with it.
[18:52]  Clubside Granville: Thanks Angela... I guess I'm used to the black hole analagous weaponry and constructs of science fiction... "point singualrity weapons"
[18:52]  Prokofy Neva: the idea that all technolog is good, that it is all improving, that humanity improves with it, that humanity is even improvable, and that it will all make a singificant jump and then be self-intelligent and accelerate in its ability to aquire more intelligence unimpeded by slow and stupid humans
[18:52]  Crap Mariner: pffft. technology will drive humans insane from lack of sleep.
[18:52]  Angela Talamasca: right, the astrophysics singularity refers to the big bang theory, iirc
[18:52]  MilosZ Milosz: Evening all
[18:52]  Clubside Granville: So it's the Unabomber in reverse?
[18:52]  Prokofy Neva: well Angela, perhaps you could concede that "dependency on technology" hasn't brought the human rights to some point of "improvement" or I wouldn't have to be in an Afghan avatar here tonight in solidarity with Afghan people being shot up by technology from the U.S. and NATO
[18:53]  Joel Savard: http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0134.html?printable=1 - he defines "the singularity" on this page
[18:53]  Prokofy Neva: just to cite one of many high-tech wars with drones and satellites and weaponry and all kinds of stuff that hasn't improved lives
[18:53]  Joel Savard: "Within a few decades, machine intelligence will surpass human intelligence, leading to The Singularity -- technological change so rapid and profound it represents a rupture in the fabric of human history. The implications include the merger of biological and nonbiological intelligence, immortal software-based humans, and ultra-high levels of intelligence that expand outward in the universe at the speed of light."
[18:53]  Angela Talamasca: i disagree with the technological singularity is it is often spouted today.
[18:53]  Prokofy Neva: Joel, what I find uber creepy about the whole Kurzweil cult is there is hardly ANY criticism or critical scientific response
[18:53]  Prokofy Neva: except for that one guy from Sun Microsystems
[18:53]  Crap Mariner: oh. good. then i can hire it to do my taxes.
[18:54]  Joel Savard: hard to debate futurism with facts... they haven't happened yet!
[18:54]  Prokofy Neva: and Lanier
[18:54]  Angela Talamasca: yup, joel, that's kurzweil's singularity. an animal of a diff nature.
[18:54]  Prokofy Neva: well but Angela just said "it's here already" and they say that too
[18:54]  Angela Talamasca: sadly quacks will take something that is arguably scientific and twist it to their agenda
[18:54]  Prokofy Neva: well there's the singularity of gravity or whatever it is, and then there's the one he has made into a cultic idea
[18:54]  Prokofy Neva: Joel, have you ever seen any connection between the ideas of The Singularity and Linden Lab?
[18:54]  Angela Talamasca: yup. the cultic one is the one that is dangerous, imo
[18:55]  Crap Mariner: i disagree that superhuman computer intelligence exists already. otherwise, when humans attempt to interface it, the technology would adapt to the human by reading their intentions and training the human.
[18:55]  Zen Zeddmore: When Gershenfield presented fablab technology to some darpa army generals, one of them took him aside after and said this will do more to make me obsolete than anything I've ever seen.
[18:55]  Crap Mariner: "No, click HERE, stupid."
[18:55]  Clubside Granville: What's the relationship with Second Life? Some kind of virtual-only world like that new Bruce Willis movie where everyone is in hyperbolic chambers and use avatars to roam the earth?
[18:55]  Joel Savard: i don't see a connection between the two
[18:55]  Prokofy Neva: I have never seen any.
[18:55]  Prokofy Neva: But Kurzweil now has a youtube about Second Life that Hamlet features
[18:56]  Prokofy Neva: he loves virtual worlds and even has a character, an avatar who is a 22 female rock star named... I forget
[18:56]  Prokofy Neva: lol
[18:56]  Crap Mariner: maybe it was because he was willing to speak for free?
[18:56]  Prokofy Neva: and see once you have those nanbot things functioning, well, you may not be pretty to look at, 200 years from now, your skin may get rather gray, even if kept alive, so you will need virtual worlds
[18:56]  Clubside Granville: I guess the Lindens are tired of repeating the same crap when they do keynotes... no offense Crap...
[18:57]  Crap Mariner: because of a key in my back? ;)
[18:57]  Angela Talamasca: here's what i mean when i say the technological singularity is already here => http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcSxL8GUn-g&feature=PlayList&p=79184D14F872B80D&index=0&playnext=1
[18:57]  Zen Zeddmore: Me thinks Prokofy hasn't been looking in the right places for criticism to the singularity. I see it al over the place.
[18:57]  Prokofy Neva: one of the things you can find about the Extropian Institute is that it is tied to other organizations which were covered in scandal -- and now they were all shut down. And one of the scandals have to do with freezing people after they die to be able to reanimate them, and they froze some people and their relatives got upset
[18:57]  Prokofy Neva: well I am looking, Zen, give me some links, I see one thing only lead circularly to another
[18:57]  Prokofy Neva: Max More leads to Kurzweil and back
[18:58]  Crap Mariner: well, there was scandal because they were slipshod operations and pyramid schemes.
[18:58]  Prokofy Neva: they are all connected, all on each others' lecture circuits and all followed by avid fanboyz, some of whom are in SL
[18:58]  Angela Talamasca: lol, no big surprise. i wrote about that in my blog post => http://blog.vrhacks.net/?p=144
[18:58]  Prokofy Neva: well did they prematurely hustle along to the afterlife one of the people who got frozen? or just badly freeze one of the more famous pepole?
[18:58]  Prokofy Neva: How do nanobots overcome cell death?
[18:58]  Crap Mariner: feeezing for the future? blech. my ideas are too insane for this time. the people of the future don't need them.
[18:58]  Zen Zeddmore: Nearly everyone actually seriously working on AI has every reason to proceed with extreme caution. Look at anything by Ben Goetzl (sp)
[18:59]  Prokofy Neva: Well Angela you work in AI, what do you know about Kurzweil?
[18:59]  Prokofy Neva: One of the many things I've read is that in fact, he doesn't work in AI! after all the yapping about it
[18:59]  Prokofy Neva: he theorizes about its use but its other who work on it
[18:59]  Zen Zeddmore: Novemente
[18:59]  Angela Talamasca: well, if you go by moravec's idea, nanobots will clone our braincell, upload the data into the computer, and destroy the brain cell it cloned. so, you would be effectively committing technological suicide.
[19:00]  Zen Zeddmore: is a platform he and others are developing
[19:00]  Angela Talamasca: kurzweil is... uh, full of himself.
[19:00]  Zen Zeddmore: Freindly AI is a very very touchy problem
[19:00]  Joel Savard: toys like this, at consumer prices, indicate that pretty tight connections with computers may not be far away... on the other hand they're really primitive today - but that they work at all at consumer prices is interesting http://emotiv.com/ - macro integration vs the nano connection approach
[19:00]  Prokofy Neva: hmm, will these nanobots kill the brain cell before they're done uploading? And why kill them? And who gets to pull the trigger? And who decides if a brain cell is worth cloning? Resources may be scarce. It could be a matter of tier. If you don't pay your SL tier in the future, will your cloned brain cells get sent back to lost & found in inventory, and then you'll wish you hadn't let the nanobots kill off your cells?
[19:00]  Prokofy Neva: for example
[19:01]  Angela Talamasca: well, for one, i am one of the skeptics of ai. regardless of what people claim, we haven't come remotely close to achieving ai.
[19:01]  Prokofy Neva: I asked the brain in my story who Kurzweil is and he said "I don't want to talk about it"
[19:01]  Prokofy Neva: !
[19:01]  Prokofy Neva: I have an artificial brain there in my build.
[19:01]  Prokofy Neva: So I asked Dedric what's up, has he put a gag order on his AI brain??1
[19:01]  Crap Mariner: probably an early relative of omniprim
[19:02]  Angela Talamasca: lol, yes, i saw! an aiml bot.
[19:02]  Zen Zeddmore: we have simulated so far, one gram of mouse brain cells in network. Via Morse doublings we will reach human brain mass in 15 years.
[19:02]  Prokofy Neva: he said I have to ask it who Kurzweil is, and not "Ray Kurzweil" so I tried again and the brain told me something about the singularity and then told me I have to ask some other aiml
[19:02]  Prokofy Neva: is aiml one of the smarter or more stupid ones?
[19:02]  Prokofy Neva: it keeps asking me to go ask some other one
[19:02]  Angela Talamasca: aiml is nothing more than a pattern matching program written by richard wallace.
[19:03]  Prokofy Neva: Who is "we" Zen?
[19:03]  Angela Talamasca: it's the ALICE bot and he won the loebner prize some time ago.
[19:03]  Prokofy Neva: That's always my question when I hear Kurzweil. He is always talking on behalf of a "we" who you don't get to see behind the camera. And...he says things like "when WE get inside the nervous system".
[19:03]  Angela Talamasca: i got booted from their group for telling them that their bots weren't even remotely intelligent. lol
[19:03]  Zen Zeddmore: sorry prok, i don't keep all links on hand for spontaneous delivery. My AI need upgrading.
[19:03]  Prokofy Neva: Well, i have a lot of questions of this "we" who will be "getting inside the nervous system".
[19:04]  Angela Talamasca: the royal "we". i think that is a practiced term. i use it a lot.
[19:04]  Prokofy Neva: you got booted from their group? well why are they a closed society? it's like the Extropians. I had never heard of Extropia, the ideas, the Extropians, I had no idea who they were, and they banned me from their sim, which I only found out once I tried to tp to an event they advertised
[19:04]  Crap Mariner: so i take it that having nanobots in you humans is as disgusting to you as having hamburger meat shoved into we robots?
[19:05]  Joel Savard: heh
[19:05]  Angela Talamasca: yah, bc i told them that i was disappointed they could so arrogantly proclaim they had arrived (ala AI). lol
[19:05]  Joel Savard: are human viruses fundamentally different than nanobots?
[19:05]  Prokofy Neva: well but it's a royal we that means "we, the advance guard of science, the superior race" -- and that really is where the fascism comes in. The idea that there is an enlightened bunch who are doing this research that is far more cutting edge and intelligent than anyone else, and that all the politicians, media, ordinary people, why, they are just in the way of progress.
[19:05]  Zen Zeddmore: As far as the simulate your brain cells then destroy them, that's one scarum used and abused but rarely considered. Most people I 've met would like the backups embedded in their body for rapid repair SHOULD any brain cells die.
[19:05]  Joel Savard: i guess i meant "viruses found in humans"
[19:06]  Prokofy Neva: well Joel, viruses seem to be a lesser form of life with no more larger agenda than feeding themselves, if I get the flu, it's not because the flu virus says it wants to change my thought processes
[19:06]  Angela Talamasca: AIML stands for AI Markup Language and is basically an XML based means for setting up responses in response to predicted speech.
[19:06]  Prokofy Neva: nanobots are scripted by people who DO believe in changing thought processes
[19:06]  Angela Talamasca: its very primitive
[19:06]  Crap Mariner: if the nanobots are constructed in a manner where the package is rna, could be considered a virus
[19:06]  Joel Savard: but if it gives you a fever, it can...
[19:06]  Joel Savard: in a limited way
[19:06]  Joel Savard: i am not ascribing intelligence btw
[19:06]  Joel Savard: or motivation
[19:07]  Joel Savard: nanobots don't need either to accomplish a programmed goal either
[19:07]  Zen Zeddmore: Would you also object to nanobots that are contagious immortality delivery devices?
[19:07]  Prokofy Neva: It's not a "scarum" to ask many many MANY ethical questions about items that will invade the body and cross the blood-brain barrier. And to portray concerns about this that are ethical and range to political as FUD lets us know that people saying that believe themselves beyond morality, scrutiny, or oversight. And maybe that's why they are secret, and why they become cults?
[19:07]  Crap Mariner: then what purpose do they serve?
[19:07]  Crap Mariner: a machine without programming or function or goal is kinda... well... dull. just sits there.
[19:08]  Tuxedo Ninetails: FUD?
[19:08]  Prokofy Neva: Yes I sure would Zen. Because who gets to decide what is "fixed"?Let's say that someone who is born with bad genes, or who suffers from a disease, or is slow in school -- perhaps nanobots should 'fix" them by simply kiling them? what does it mean to replace human cells in this fashioN? It's certainly ok to ask questions about this.
[19:08]  Prokofy Neva: Fear Uncertainty Doubt
[19:08]  Angela Talamasca: for a nice chiller, u oughta read "prey" by michael chrichton. the story is based around nanobots.
[19:08]  Prokofy Neva: it's what "scientists" like this say people like me are "suffering from"
[19:08]  Zen Zeddmore: Prok would have us CONTROLL nanotech, when we can't even deal with the drug trade and munitions which are easily visible?
[19:08]  Crap Mariner: why waste nanobots on killing them when a heavy brick would suffice?
[19:08]  Prokofy Neva: I sure would
[19:08]  Prokofy Neva: Why, I'm supposed to let YOU control access to my body and the bodies of eveyrone else in society? Why? Who the hell are you?
[19:09]  brinda Allen: Amen crap
[19:09]  Prokofy Neva: we attempt to control the drug industry precisely because many commercial and political interests are at play; weapons too
[19:09]  Prokofy Neva: what, we can't control this, too? Of course we should
[19:09]  Prokofy Neva: well Crap that would look too thuggish, and they have appearances to save
[19:09]  brinda Allen: deads dead
[19:09]  Zen Zeddmore: Would you also prevent yourself from developing blue goo to police bad nanotech? Would you prevent yourself from working on and developing green goo to clean up polution?
[19:10]  Prokofy Neva: Angela, how do people in the AI field view the Singularity? Do they generally buy it, or is it considered a minority viewpoint, or what?
[19:10]  Crap Mariner: if detection of a disability can be done early enough, fetus aborted. as savage as the process is, it is still legal.
[19:10]  Prokofy Neva: yes, Zen, I would, because I don't think in a democratic society, only arrogant technologists and scientists get to decide what should be worked when it impacts everyone
[19:10]  Prokofy Neva: once you have something like the Internet, social media, virtual worlds you have massive viral power
[19:11]  Prokofy Neva: and I'm not interesed in letting you just usurp that viral power to insert everywhere cultic ideas
[19:11]  Crap Mariner: i wouldn't think abortion by aspiration, nanobot, wire hanger, or magic wand would be any different in savagery. result is... Junior's now medical waste.
[19:11]  Prokofy Neva: I think you get a giant shove back when you do that, and rightfully so, and it won't be from me, but it will be from people far less liberal from me if you persist in the idea that science gets to work unrestrained
[19:11]  Zen Zeddmore: Prok, It's like this. If we don't gain control of the nanoscale then seriously a pandemic (which is inevitable) will undo us just as surely as yuor worst fears regarding nanotech.
[19:11]  brinda Allen: The Pb is WHO makes the decsion
[19:12]  Angela Talamasca: here's some reading on mind uploading => http://www.frc.ri.cmu.edu/~hpm/
[19:12]  Tuxedo Ninetails: Pb?
[19:12]  brinda Allen: problem
[19:12]  Prokofy Neva: Oh, baloney. that's hardly proven, and even when we have serious RL pandemics like swine flu, it turns out to be very uneven in how it develops and very unpredictable and it's not only the virus that scales, people's preventions and cures also scale, so you have exponential forces at work that you cannot invoke as a justification for fascistic nanobot invasions.
[19:12]  Joel Savard: i would argue that most modern medicines are indistinguishable from limited function nanobots.. they are engineered to affect certain portions of the body system in particular ways, are introduced into the body, and some are designed to hang around for a long time, while others are designed for limited time and then lose effect or are diluted out
[19:12]  Prokofy Neva: PB?
[19:13]  Zen Zeddmore: If we don't gain cheap access to space then the resource wars willl continue.
[19:13]  Prokofy Neva: Joel are you saying you are a believer in this religion?
[19:13]  Joel Savard: with the primary difference being that the programming of a medicine is chemical and the programming of a nanobot is software
[19:13]  Zen Zeddmore: that won't be fun OR pretty
[19:13]  Joel Savard: i don't know what religion you are talking about - i'm just saying i see parallels between the basic nature of them
[19:13]  Prokofy Neva: There's a big difference between a medicine made of chemicals or organic substances, and a nanobot that is coded by people like yourself who are coders exerting political will over bodies
[19:13]  Crap Mariner: i agree with joel that the drugs/chemical constructs are becoming what people think would be nanobot technology.
[19:14]  Prokofy Neva: that's very very different than a known chemical that has a certain limited automatic property that is generally always the same and predictable
[19:14]  Joel Savard: and i do see concerns about our ability to understand downstream behavior of nanobots, and the same with the highly complex chemical medicines we are now producing... both are turning out to have unpredictable side effects
[19:14]  Zen Zeddmore: Wassa matter prok, Don't YOU think you have what it would take to make the nanotech that you'd like to have?
[19:14]  Prokofy Neva: but nanobots are BOTS that are controlled by humans -- what is so often severed out of the picture and made very opaque is that bots are concretizations of the will of the coder
[19:14]  Crap Mariner: very very basic stuff. ability to "program" a drug to go after a specific targeted protein
[19:14]  Prokofy Neva: penicillin isn't the coding of the coder -- it's a substance with properties that behave in X or Y way over 9 or 12 days in X percentage of cases always the same
[19:15]  Prokofy Neva: they aren't like a scripted, coded bot that is controlled by a coding intelligence for whatever purpose he might have
[19:15]  Joel Savard: i guess i'm saying more that i'm as concerned with very sophisticated chemical approaches to solutions of medical problems as sofware-driven ones
[19:15]  Crap Mariner: Joel - you know the drugs are getting "smart" when the disclaimer in the commercial is longer than the show the commercial sponsors.
[19:15]  Joel Savard: uhhuh :)
[19:15]  Angela Talamasca: i have an oncologist research friend who has been doing research on the suicide gene. he posits that if he can genetically alter it to attach to cancer cells, then we could do away with chemo therapy which indescriminately kills good cells along with bad cells.
[19:15]  Joel Savard: is a chemical "drug" smart when it "knows" to only attach itself to a very specific type of cell, and have a specific effect on that cell?
[19:15]  Prokofy Neva: Joel, but a chemical substance that operates in a defined manner on organic life is very different than a microchip with coded instructions
[19:16]  Joel Savard: right angela - that's one of the types i'm talking and thinking about
[19:16]  Zen Zeddmore: most cancer cells already have the p53 gene. It just never gets turned on.
[19:16]  Angela Talamasca: that might arguably fall into the nanobot area.
[19:16]  Prokofy Neva: the nanobot remains tethered to human will that could change its instructions
[19:16]  Crap Mariner: joel - maybe. maybe not. a magnet doesn't have to be smart to attach to metal instead of wood.
[19:16]  Joel Savard: :)
[19:16]  Joel Savard: yeah i was pointing at "what is smart?" conceptually
[19:16]  Prokofy Neva: well exactly, Joel, that's why I would say: a magnet isn't "smart," it merely has an automatic property
[19:17]  Crap Mariner: so a simple chemical affinity wouldn't be smart either
[19:17]  Prokofy Neva: chemicals may appear "smart" if they attach to this or that molecule through this or that property that is engineered, but it's automatic
[19:17]  Crap Mariner: how complex does it need to be? makes judgment calls?
[19:17]  Prokofy Neva: but microchips coded to gather data, perform functions -- like spimes -- they are more open ended and more controllable *by their coders*
[19:17]  Joel Savard: if a permanent magnet and an electromagnet controlled by a microchip ended up having the same behaviors, would one be better or worse than the other because one uses sofware?
[19:17]  Prokofy Neva: you could program cancer killing nanobots to enter a body
[19:17]  Angela Talamasca: the biggest argument against nanobots is that they're a foreign object and would be detected as such by the system.
[19:18]  Angela Talamasca: the system would then attempt to eject them.
[19:18]  Prokofy Neva: but then when someone posted on a forum something you didn't like that you didn't agree with, you could press KILLFILE just like the early creators of the WELL created KILLFILE to get rid of people they didnt like
[19:18]  Crap Mariner: angela - not necessary. if they were made form materials that did not provoke an immune reaction, the body would be blind to their presence.
[19:18]  Prokofy Neva: penicillin doesn't change to KILL FILE -- nanobots could at any moment
[19:18]  Angela Talamasca: true
[19:19]  Zen Zeddmore: So you don't expect there to be a McCaffee's for nanobots?
[19:19]  Prokofy Neva: well here Joel will say, but many people have pacemakers, and steel in their broken legs
[19:19]  Joel Savard: what if you have a chemical structure that can spontaneously change behavior by having it contact another chemical
[19:19]  Joel Savard: ?
[19:19]  Crap Mariner: nanobots ARE the mccaffee antivirus... i guess
[19:19]  Prokofy Neva: they are still chemicals with known properties, Joel
[19:19]  Zen Zeddmore: anti computer virus software company
[19:19]  Joel Savard: that seems to me the same as changing the code of a nanobot
[19:19]  Prokofy Neva: what is your need here to exonerate the coded artifact from the evil attached to the will of the coder? that's what you're up to here
[19:20]  Joel Savard: i'm not exonerating... just exploring whether these things are similar or different, and in what ways
[19:20]  Crap Mariner confused. Will need to read the book. And will shake any nanobots hidden in the binding off at the store.
[19:20]  Prokofy Neva: chemicals have known properties, you can't go and say "kill file" to a chemical or ask it to scrape more data
[19:20]  Prokofy Neva: well you seem to have a deeply felt need to try to exonerate and exclulpate nanobots
[19:20]  Joel Savard: ahh so it's the REprogrammability of the nanobot approach that's of concern
[19:20]  Joel Savard: no, i'm trying to understand
[19:20]  Prokofy Neva: they are intrusive and they need regulation, you don't feel that they do, and you try to morally equivocate them to chemicals
[19:20]  Prokofy Neva: programming and reprograming amount to the same thing: the will of coders
[19:20]  Joel Savard: you are assinging words to me that i didn't say
[19:21]  Prokofy Neva: chemicals have limitations
[19:21]  Zen Zeddmore: what would YOU code your nanobots to do Prok? You can't stop nanotech from coming. The question is What will you want to program YOUR nanotech to do? Protect you? Defend you? Sure, why not?
[19:21]  Angela Talamasca: k, here's creepy => http://www.federaljack.com/2009/04/15/virtual-reality-via-nanobot-injection-ray-kurzweil-says-it%E2%80%99s-the-futu/
[19:21]  Prokofy Neva: they are substances that do not have endless capacity the way a microchip does
[19:21]  Joel Savard: i said nothing about regulation, and in fact said that i have concerns about BOTH advanced chemical and nanobot approaches
[19:21]  Prokofy Neva: Of course we can stop them from coming by arresting all the people trying to invent them to infiltrate our blood streams : )
[19:21]  Angela Talamasca: "Kurzweil speculates in an interview with Good magazine that nanotechnology could simulate travel because an injection of nanobots could trick your neurons into thinking that you’re really traveling someplace you aren’t."
[19:21]  Zen Zeddmore: How do you know you are not there already Angela?
[19:22]  Prokofy Neva: perhaps it will take crude civil war to stop you; perhaps it can be done by a boring UN committee or an inefficient federal commission -- let's try them first : )
[19:22]  Angela Talamasca: hehe, maybe i am! lol
[19:22]  Angela Talamasca: prok, that's where the bioethics committee would come in.
[19:22]  Prokofy Neva: yes Angela, he has this idea that you can "teach the constitution" by having someone not just visit an SL type of island or be a Ben Franklin character as an avatar, but you would actually be induced into hallucinating that you were in Philadelphia in 1776
[19:22]  Joel Savard: afk for a few...
[19:23]  Prokofy Neva: so like the Lindens, he accentuates the "educational" side to all this in order to sanitize it
[19:23]  Angela Talamasca: http://bioethics.net/
[19:24]  Prokofy Neva: I'm just curious, Joel, when you get back, how it is you came to the position that your default is "nanobots are good, and our task is to show that chemicals are already like them and therefore they aren't scary" -- I need to understand your motivation in trying to portray them as such
[19:24]  Prokofy Neva: why? because you seem like a non-cultic sort of intelligent person, so I have to understand how you came to this odd position
[19:24]  Angela Talamasca: bioethics is a tough area though. i worked in biotech for a bit but was uncomfortable with some of the implications.
[19:24]  Prokofy Neva: Zen however seems to be already a paid up subscriber to the cult
[19:24]  Prokofy Neva: what were those implications?
[19:24]  Zen Zeddmore: What's to sanitize about 100% recycling of products, greatly extended lifespan in a myriad of worlds all experienced in multispectral enhanced sensorium?
[19:24]  Angela Talamasca: in that case, it involved a sort of classical conditioning proposal to health.
[19:24]  Crap Mariner: hrm. i don't like cults. especially ones where i am not the leader of them.
[19:25]  Angela Talamasca: people would wear monitors that would report back to health insurance computers.
[19:25]  Joel Savard: " Joel, when you get back, how it is you came to the position that your default is "nanobots are good, and our task is to show that chemicals are already like them and therefore they aren't scary" -- I need to understand your motivation in trying to portray them as such" - this is *not* what i am trying to say
[19:25]  Angela Talamasca: so, if you forgot to take your insulin at the prescribed time, you could lose your insurance.
[19:25]  Zen Zeddmore: or just report your health condition to you
[19:25]  Prokofy Neva: I wonder why it is that the Singularity people are on a huge PR crusade now
[19:25]  Angela Talamasca: if you took it on time, you might get a break on your insurance.
[19:25]  Prokofy Neva: I wonder about the provenance of this SLCC keynote
[19:25]  Zen Zeddmore: how about a no prick glucose tattoo?
[19:26]  Joel Savard: nanobots are not necessarily good, and frankly i have concerns about the fact that they will likely end up eventually with some sort of "autoupdate" system like ms windows and most other software
[19:26]  Zen Zeddmore: that you paint on
[19:26]  Angela Talamasca: it was very invasive and very much like a classical conditioning proposal.
[19:26]  Crap Mariner: i think long before nannybots snitch on you about taking insulin, there's be bots that would monitor your condition and dispense it.
[19:26]  Prokofy Neva: who put Nexeus up to it, because quite frankly, I do not believe that Nexeus just googled around "future" and "virtual worlds" and decided this on his own
[19:26]  Angela Talamasca: i left that job. just didn't sit right with me.
[19:26]  Joel Savard: and to me the biggest risk with that kind of environment is that corruption of the autoupdate system can allow global control
[19:26]  Prokofy Neva: yes Joel you are raising something that of course is even more worrisome, the auto update
[19:27]  Prokofy Neva: and of course, hackers don't go away, they are available to sabotage these systems like anything else
[19:27]  Crap Mariner: i saw medical stuff at battelle back in 1987 that did monitoring, dispensing... all based on threshholds and sensors.
[19:27]  Joel Savard: today... if someone managed to subvert microsoft update, that entity could manipulate 90-95% of the personal computers on the planet overnight... that is worrisome to me
[19:27]  Angela Talamasca: prok, the singularity people have been on a huge crusade for awhile. at least that's what i've seen. they're just now starting to get noticed.
[19:27]  Zen Zeddmore: Show me the hacker who can crack a home made system and I'll show you a person hacking their own build.
[19:27]  Joel Savard: if those computers were in people.. the problem gets some really disconcertingly amount harder to deal with
[19:28]  Prokofy Neva: Angela, they had a setback clearly when the Extropia Institute closed in 2006, and when these offshoots were mired in scandal. It's unclear to me why Extropia closed -- it seems odd.
[19:28]  Prokofy Neva: And there is some mystery around Sophrosyne who was the big Extropian of SL -- she has announced that she left SL -- and her blog hasn't been updated in about a year, and I'm not sure her group functions
[19:28]  Joel Savard: need to be afkish for another 5-10... sorry
[19:28]  Angela Talamasca: i admittedly never followed the extropian stuff. too out there for my tastes. lol
[19:29]  Prokofy Neva: that could be unrelated to the fate of the other Extropia stuff, Extropians could be franchisable very easily lol
[19:29]  Prokofy Neva: well I began to follow it when two people that I already clashed with vigorously -- Csven Concord and Ben Duranske -- showed up as big brain uploader afficionados, too. That was surprising.
[19:29]  Prokofy Neva: Csven was famous for fab stuff like Zen was mentioning -- fablab
[19:29]  Prokofy Neva: Ben is of course the big lawyer and former of the ABA subsection on VWs
[19:29]  Zen Zeddmore: Printing organs is only the first step. Later people will use the tech for cosmetic reasons. Watch for furries in real life.
[19:30]  Angela Talamasca: i must admit, i am very tempted to pay a visit to SU. lol
[19:30]  Prokofy Neva: so they turned up as Sophrosyne groupies, and at one of their meetings a representative of Philips Electronics talked about the future of smartwear
[19:30]  Tuxedo Ninetails: /
[19:30]  Prokofy Neva: things embedded in your clothes
[19:30]  Tuxedo Ninetails: ABA?
[19:30]  Prokofy Neva: not your skin
[19:30]  Prokofy Neva: American Bar Association
[19:30]  Prokofy Neva: but then Csven suggested it would be great if there were these electrodes in your skin
[19:31]  Prokofy Neva: that people could rate you, and your skin would show a different colour
[19:31]  Angela Talamasca: they'e been talking cyborg things for ages. thanks to minsky's mit ai lab. lol
[19:31]  Crap Mariner: blech
[19:31]  Prokofy Neva: It was absolutely chilling
[19:31]  Prokofy Neva: and they all talked about this very matter-of-factly
[19:31]  Angela Talamasca: just think though. you could have a cyborgasm. lol
[19:31]  Crap Mariner: i don't even like splinters in my skin
[19:31]  Prokofy Neva: like "well, better what your reputation, then"
[19:31]  Prokofy Neva: so you get negrated in SL, it would turn your RL skin blue
[19:31]  Prokofy Neva: for example
[19:31]  Zen Zeddmore: People would 'game' it just like they did i SL.
[19:31]  Prokofy Neva: so I raised a few objections to that concept LOL
[19:32]  Prokofy Neva: well Zen, before you get to the point of people "gaming it"
[19:32]  Prokofy Neva: can you concede that it is a horridly fascistic idea that must not be done to human beings? That it is morally and ethically wrong?
[19:32]  Prokofy Neva: It's like putting a scarlet A on their forehead.
[19:32]  Zen Zeddmore: absolutely.
[19:32]  Prokofy Neva: It's like tatooing them with a prison camp number.
[19:32]  Prokofy Neva: It's wrong.
[19:32]  Crap Mariner: hrm
[19:32]  Crap Mariner: not sure if that's the same
[19:32]  Prokofy Neva: OK, but that isn't what they said at Sophrosyne's Salon
[19:32]  Crap Mariner: but it is rather icky
[19:33]  Prokofy Neva: well Crap, having a system whereby you have nanobots or electrodes or spimes inside your skin
[19:33]  Prokofy Neva: and against your will
[19:33]  Crap Mariner: what of identifiers you already have? biometrics?
[19:33]  Prokofy Neva: anyone can click on your avatar
[19:33]  Prokofy Neva: and turn your RL skin a colour
[19:33]  Zen Zeddmore: What's your point Prok? That people should never role play being horrible?
[19:33]  Prokofy Neva: or visa versa perhaps, via the web or smart phones
[19:33]  Prokofy Neva: my point is that intrusive devices used to create collective totalitarian systems like that should be opposed early and often
[19:34]  Prokofy Neva: What exonerates them for you Crap?
[19:34]  Zen Zeddmore: great . get on it will you?
[19:34]  Crap Mariner: hrm?
[19:34]  Prokofy Neva: well, why do you think it's ok for Csven's skin to light up orange or green?
[19:34]  Prokofy Neva: if he is rated in SL
[19:34]  Zen Zeddmore: It's nice that we rate people by how much money and how many friends they have
[19:35]  Crap Mariner: i think that would be rather creepy
[19:35]  Prokofy Neva: and I am on it Zen, while you'er busy being a 3-D printed person lol
[19:35]  Angela Talamasca: lol, here u go => http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/1434
[19:35]  Prokofy Neva: does that change their skin to a different colour?
[19:35]  Prokofy Neva: yes that's what they talked about
[19:35]  Prokofy Neva: but having it in clothes is one thing; in your skin takes it to another whole level
[19:35]  Zen Zeddmore: well, this talk is getting one sided and boring. tata folks.
[19:35]  Crap Mariner: i think maybe in a wristwatch might be tolerable
[19:35]  Prokofy Neva: would you want a wearable like that?
[19:36]  Crap Mariner: or a handheld device
[19:36]  Prokofy Neva: I guess what you mean is that I can't agree with you Zen
[19:36]  Prokofy Neva: and that's what we have to worry about
[19:36]  Crap Mariner: i can google people from ym blackberry already
[19:36]  Prokofy Neva: is that people like that over and over controlling ever discussion, and if you object, you are boring or worse -- to be banned
[19:37]  Prokofy Neva: No, and what really chafes me Crap is your need to be contrary about these issues of morality which in fact you fully share, but you can't resist being a devil's advocate and saying "maybe technology is ok when it does that as long as I get to control it myself"
[19:38]  brinda Allen: I for one are always concerned when ppl make choices for me
[19:38]  brinda Allen: am
[19:38]  brinda Allen: even good ones
[19:38]  Crap Mariner: hrm? no, in this, i'm pretty creeped out at embeddable tech in human bodies for sensors and such. if it's medical device with a specific purpose, like an insulin pump that can detect sugar levels, that seems right. but a general sensor? doesn't sound right.
[19:38]  Angela Talamasca: i think (the royal) we make a lot of mistakes based upon the premise that we're doing it for the good of mankind when in reality, it is often selfishly driven.
[19:39]  Prokofy Neva: Well an insulin pump is that sort of chemical thing that has a sort of known boundary to it
[19:39]  Prokofy Neva: that's what Joel noted by the "reprogrammable" issue
[19:39]  Crap Mariner: give it a specific role and purpose. limit the reporting back for diagnostic purposes for machine replacement.
[19:39]  Prokofy Neva: by the way, Zen Zedmore says this on his profile: "We are a multi-cellular colony. We are host to a 2.3 kilos of symbiotic and predator bacteria and an unknown number of other parasites."
[19:39]  Prokofy Neva: that's not a role play; that's how he views the human race
[19:39]  Crap Mariner: boundaries. yes. but i see the problem that if you put a device into service, who controls the boundaries? can you trust them?
[19:40]  brinda Allen: never
[19:40]  Prokofy Neva: well an insulin pump cannot be programmed to stop pumping insulin if you criticize Extropianism on a forums
[19:40]  brinda Allen: im not sure i always trust me for gods sake
[19:40]  Prokofy Neva: or maybe it can, come the Singularity
[19:41]  Crap Mariner: unless it has a report back scheme and there's a "stop" command that can be remotely triggered for another reason. like if it's dispensing without end.
[19:41]  Angela Talamasca: well, i think anything that is dependent upon software to run it, and that is then injected into the body is an extremely dangerous idea. regardles of the alleged altruistic claims that prop it up.
[19:41]  Crap Mariner: "we're only supposed to use STOP when it's about to kill you with an overdose, but you just voted for McCain, so... DIE MISTER JONES!" that kinda thing.
[19:42]  Crap Mariner: it kinda weired me out when i got a call from verizon saying i should switch to another plan because my texts were bigger than my plan.
[19:42]  Angela Talamasca: lol @ crap
[19:43]  Crap Mariner: and i thought "what else do i have that other people can step in and say they know how to run my life better than me and offer that advice?"
[19:43]  brinda Allen: haha well at my age.....its not likely to come to fruition before im gone.....so ill leaqve it to the next generaqrtion i guess
[19:43]  brinda Allen: nite all
[19:43]  Prokofy Neva: well that's what I hope, that I don't have to live and see this horror!
[19:43]  Angela Talamasca: nite brinda
[19:43]  Crap Mariner: although it's odd... michael jackson with all his meds... so many conflicts... didn't raise red flag because they were circumvented by greed.
[19:43]  Tuxedo Ninetails: night brinda
[19:44]  Angela Talamasca: i doubt we will, prok
[19:44]  Prokofy Neva: Crap how can texts be bigger?
[19:44]  Angela Talamasca: though our children might
[19:44]  Crap Mariner: more texts per month. bigger plan
[19:44]  Prokofy Neva: Angela, what these folks claim though is that it is an incremental development, so that gradually, it would just grow on you like the frog in the boiling water I guess
[19:45]  Angela Talamasca: sure, but right now its mostly theory. computer simulations, etc.
[19:45]  Prokofy Neva: already Yahoo has a story about scientists observing how memories are preserved, and the next day you know Kurzweil, who wins followers to his cult by being the inventor of a machine to read books for the blind, says, oh, I can prevent your grandma from getting Alzheimers if she will just pin this device on her collar with this tiny injector, very similar to an insulin pump
[19:45]  Angela Talamasca: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080527091910.htm
[19:45]  Prokofy Neva: who wouldn't pin it on granny?
[19:46]  Prokofy Neva: in fact, if you do NOT agree to pin it on granny, you will be told you are willing to leave her to Alzheimer's.
[19:46]  Angela Talamasca: well, maybe granny isn't bothered by alzheimers.
[19:46]  Angela Talamasca: the thing is, we make choices all the time to increase our own comfort
[19:47]  Angela Talamasca: take people with schizophrenia, for example. we shoot them up with haldol, thorazine, or whatever, so they don't hallucinate and bother us.
[19:48]  Angela Talamasca: we've been trying to control human behavior for ages. whether through behavioral modification or drugs.
[19:48]  Prokofy Neva: well but again, that doesn't involve invading their actual bodies with devices
[19:48]  Angela Talamasca: kurzweil's singularity is not different in that respect
[19:48]  Prokofy Neva: we evolved all those drugs becaues liberals in the 1970s said we can't institutionalize the insane any more and they have to return to the community
[19:49]  Angela Talamasca: yet actual bodies are invaded with electrical shock, insulin shock, and now days, drugs
[19:49]  Prokofy Neva: so now families with little resources had to suddenly care for profoundly mentally ill people and had no resources to do so as they struggled to go to jobs, etc
[19:49]  Prokofy Neva: so they had to have these drugs to keep these relatives manageable
[19:49]  Prokofy Neva: the two things go together
[19:49]  Angela Talamasca: but would that be the same kind of argument someone like kurzweil might make?
[19:50]  Crap Mariner: makes sense
[19:50]  Prokofy Neva: but angela, an insulin shock, which is no longer used to treat mental ilness in this country as far as I know, it was 30 years ago, and electric shock which still IS used at times, although less often, has a begining, middle and end. It isn't like a nanobot stationed in your blood.
[19:50]  Prokofy Neva: OH, I'm for putting the mentally ill back into institutions
[19:50]  Crap Mariner: will i have net access when i go back in?
[19:50]  Prokofy Neva: not using drugs on them that in fact kill them or make them more violent or suicidal
[19:50]  Prokofy Neva: I'm not making the Kurzweil argument, I'm merely recounting it
[19:50]  Angela Talamasca: we deinstitutionalized the mentally ill in the 70s bc, in part, we were indescriminately locking people up who did not need to be locked up. and in part, there was the humanist movement that proclaimed mental illness was a social construct.
[19:50]  Angela Talamasca: ala thomas szaz
[19:51]  Prokofy Neva: maybe that's one way to make them more humane Crap
[19:51]  Crap Mariner: oh good. then they can truly build castles in the air in sl
[19:51]  Prokofy Neva: The stages that Kurzweil outlines on the way to nanobots do have some things along the way that don't sound so easy to do
[19:52]  Prokofy Neva: but he just skips lightly over them
[19:52]  Angela Talamasca: lol, i proposed using something akin to SL as a therapy adjunct to treating mental illness. specifically for the transition process from institutionalization to mainstream society.
[19:52]  Crap Mariner: i'll make a note not to read his book before bedtime. this sounds rather... frightening
[19:52]  Prokofy Neva: did anybody make a tiny nanobot thingie yet that works? I mean, I know batteries are being printed on paper like postage stamps, but that's different than making a nanobot to survive in your blood
[19:52]  Prokofy Neva: do you think it would work Angela?
[19:53]  Prokofy Neva: after all people use SL for things like stroke victims or people with post-traumatic stress syndrome, maybe they could use it also for mental illness
[19:53]  Angela Talamasca: well, there are pit (passive integrated transponders) that can contain large amounts of data.
[19:53]  Prokofy Neva: isn't that what got Pathfinder his glory? He used to work with mentally ill patients and their families and got them in SL on a sim, via Johns Hopkins
[19:53]  Angela Talamasca: they've been around for almost 3 decades now.
[19:53]  Crap Mariner: from his recent blog interview thingy, sounds familiar
[19:54]  Prokofy Neva: that's how he became a scientist and an educator, although he doesn't have PHds in science or medicine, but you dont need them if you are a computer systems manager in a university
[19:54]  Angela Talamasca: the prob with something that is active is the issue of power, though, an enterprising engineer could design them so they used the body's electrical current to power them.
[19:54]  Prokofy Neva: where are these PITs placed Angela?
[19:55]  Angela Talamasca: they're injected just under the skin.
[19:55]  Angela Talamasca: (the royal) we used them to track wildlife
[19:56]  Angela Talamasca: while those aren't nanobots, i have long been disturbed by that prop, bc of the amount of data they can contain.
[19:56]  Prokofy Neva: so they are used on animals
[19:56]  Prokofy Neva: but are they used on people?
[19:56]  Prokofy Neva: I've read about this in National Geographic come to think of it
[19:57]  Angela Talamasca: some proponents were suggesting we use them on our children bc they could contain medical data, could be updated, and could also be used to help identify a missing child.
[19:57]  Angela Talamasca: they use something similar (only bigger) for pets.
[19:57]  Prokofy Neva: er, what else could they be used to do on these children?!
[19:57]  Prokofy Neva: will it jab them with shocks if they don't do their homework?!
[19:57]  Angela Talamasca: well, they're passive, so they don't really "do" anything.
[19:57]  Prokofy Neva: what steps do you think would go into deciding whether these things should be put in children?
[19:58]  Prokofy Neva: well they don't "do" anything except scrape data, and EU privacy laws, if no one else will step up, could begin to look at this
[19:58]  Angela Talamasca: i don't think they should be put in children. even if they are passive.
[19:58]  Prokofy Neva: ok, so that's good so far
[19:58]  Prokofy Neva: but what do your colleagues thing?
[19:58]  Prokofy Neva: *think?
[19:58]  Prokofy Neva: is this something that a hospital ethics board would study?
[19:58]  Angela Talamasca: i do think that, as the media hype about missing kids increases and purposefully used the fear factor, people will start thinking it is a good idea.
[19:59]  Angela Talamasca: it's already been proposed. most people blanch bc there is a privacy issue.
[19:59]  Crap Mariner: embedding trackers and identifiers in kids?
[19:59]  Prokofy Neva: Is a key feature of the Singularity going to be that technical advancement is so fast that medical ethics boards won't have time to meet? That the enlightened Kurzweilians will already put nanobots in people, and then say blandly, "they don't really do anything"? before Congress can meet? Is that what we are to understand about the Singularity?!
[19:59]  Crap Mariner: similar to chipping pets?
[19:59]  Angela Talamasca: the big prob with this is that they can be read from across the street.
[19:59]  Angela Talamasca: that is, if you have the correct reader.
[19:59]  Angela Talamasca: yes, crap
[20:00]  Crap Mariner: makes sense that would be the route someone wanting to chip humans would take. fear for children.
[20:00]  Prokofy Neva: What would stop the evil people who abduct children from jamming these devices or worse, carving them out?
[20:00]  Prokofy Neva: yes Crap, that's how they would sell it
[20:00]  Crap Mariner: absolutely nothing would stop them
[20:00]  Angela Talamasca: ah yes, promote fear and people will hand over their rights on a silver platter.
[20:00]  Prokofy Neva: like Kurzweilians sell his ideas by saying "he helped the bling"
[20:00]  Prokofy Neva: *blind
[20:00]  Prokofy Neva: so you can't say, so, it's still creepy? morally wrong?
[20:00]  Angela Talamasca: there's actually a name for that approach, but i cannot for the life of me, remember it.
[20:00]  Prokofy Neva: so they could sell this, the way spimes are now being sold as "helping the environment" by saying "what about the children"
[20:00]  Crap Mariner: it is still pretty damn icky
[20:01]  Crap Mariner: i don't even wear contact lenses
[20:01]  Angela Talamasca: yup
[20:01]  Prokofy Neva: well yeah, imagine if you said, "I don't want that on my kids" and then Zen and Joel said to you, "Hmm, are you wishing to help your kid get abucted? what's wrong with you?"
[20:01]  Angela Talamasca: and, prok. they have been pushing that angle for some time now
[20:01]  Tuxedo Ninetails: Spimes?
[20:01]  Prokofy Neva: google Tuxedo
[20:01]  Tuxedo Ninetails: ok
[20:01]  Prokofy Neva: devices to track information
[20:02]  Angela Talamasca: although i am a technophile i am adamantly against that technology
[20:02]  Prokofy Neva: you are?
[20:02]  Prokofy Neva: but...it will be used to help the environment, Angela
[20:02]  Angela Talamasca: http://www.ptagis.org/
[20:02]  Prokofy Neva: why, smart Joi Ito and David Orban are ALREADY putting it in place so how can you stop progress!
[20:03]  Angela Talamasca: well, it is allgedly being used for just that. to help the environment.
[20:03]  Prokofy Neva: you have more links that we could possibly read!
[20:03]  Angela Talamasca: lol, prolly
[20:03]  Prokofy Neva: at what point will PIT be put in people?
[20:03]  Angela Talamasca: i am surprised that it hasn't already.
[20:03]  Angela Talamasca: though, as i said, people did blanch.
[20:04]  Angela Talamasca: am guessing that's why they went for tagging pets for now. get people warmed up to the idea.
[20:04]  Prokofy Neva: well they blanched but...will all of them blanch?
[20:04]  Prokofy Neva: I mean, Ray Kurzweil doesn't blanch
[20:04]  Prokofy Neva: he's ready to be shot up with these things to the max
[20:05]  Prokofy Neva: and if you were told your life could be prolonged by taking this injection, you might too?
[20:05]  Angela Talamasca: of course they won't all blanch. some of my colleagues claim i'm way too paranoid. lol
[20:05]  Prokofy Neva: I mean, look at the suckers they got to get themselves put on ice!
[20:05]  Angela Talamasca: i just don't think its anyone elses business where i am and what i do. the pit tags would remove my ability to freely move about.
[20:05]  Crap Mariner: well, it was either that or be dead not on ice. either way, what harm but their families wasting a lot of money?
[20:06]  Prokofy Neva: I guess the concern was that they hustled one of the people along too prematurely
[20:06]  Angela Talamasca: yeah, cryonics. lol
[20:06]  Prokofy Neva: I wonder how they decided to take only the head versus the body
[20:06]  Prokofy Neva: apparently they had a discount plan for the head only?
[20:06]  Angela Talamasca: isn't timothy leary's brain supposed to be on ice?
[20:06]  Prokofy Neva: The Lindens put in the last name Cryotank that some of the believers in this thing have used
[20:06]  Prokofy Neva: well cube3 says Timothy O'Leary was one of these cultics
[20:06]  Angela Talamasca: lol, one of my bots is a cryotank.
[20:07]  Angela Talamasca: it's appropriate, i s'pose. lol
[20:07]  Prokofy Neva: and I suppose you could say LSD is just precisely one of those drugs that alters the cells in certain ways, like Kurzweil wants the nanobots to
[20:07]  Prokofy Neva: In 30 years, we may look back at these theorists and think of them as odd and as failed as the LSD gurus
[20:07]  Joel Savard: back... scrolling
[20:07]  Prokofy Neva: Nobody takes LSD anymore, do they?
[20:07]  Angela Talamasca: well, arguably, all psychopharm drugs alter braincells
[20:08]  Prokofy Neva: well well the serotonin uptake inhibitors do
[20:08]  Tuxedo Ninetails: Thanks all - I have another date now
[20:08]  Prokofy Neva: but they do not behave perfectly predictably, they work for some people, and not for all, some people take them and don't get them to keep working over time
[20:08]  Angela Talamasca: k, tuxedo. :-)
[20:08]  Crap Mariner salutes
[20:08]  Prokofy Neva: thanks for coming
[20:09]  Angela Talamasca: people were just as against mind altering drugs as some are against nanotech.
[20:09]  Prokofy Neva: and were they wrong to be?
[20:09]  Angela Talamasca: i personally think (the universal) we get too big for our britches, so to speak, and play god where we have no business doing so.
[20:09]  Prokofy Neva: people took LSD trips, claimed to see all sorts of infinite truths, wrote down things, and when they came out of the trance, it was just rantings and scrawlings
[20:10]  Prokofy Neva: it's not like LSD then became something they put in the drinking water like iodine
[20:10]  Prokofy Neva: Metanomics didn't even invite Ray Kurzweil. Why SLCC?
[20:10]  Angela Talamasca: well, i don't know. ssris supposedly help people who are depressed. and some antipsychotics help people suffering from psychotic delusions.
[20:10]  Prokofy Neva: yes they do help ,my point is they are filled with controversy, read the Times on them, especially in kids and teenagers and they don't consistently work
[20:10]  Angela Talamasca: ah, but they (being the cia) sure tried putting it in the drinking water.
[20:11]  Prokofy Neva: this system of the serotonin uptake gets worn, it takes more and more to get the same effect, or it stops working in some people
[20:11]  Prokofy Neva: Angela, um, when did the CIA try putting LSd in the drinking water?!
[20:11]  Angela Talamasca: yup. and they're just not finding out that ritalin can cause tardive disknesia
[20:12]  Prokofy Neva: There are so many millions of kids on Ritalin
[20:12]  Angela Talamasca: they mention it in the 1972 hearing on project mk-ultra before the church committee
[20:12]  Prokofy Neva: I think it a pretty far-fetched concept that the CIA would have a plan to put LSD in the drinking water. Perhaps they intended it to use on POWs or something, but drinking water? Makes no sense.
[20:13]  Angela Talamasca: they also tried spraying it over the streets in the san fran haight asbury area
[20:13]  Prokofy Neva: Why would they have to do that Angela? the people already took it lol.
[20:14]  Angela Talamasca: that was before lsd hit the scene. so to speak.
[20:14]  Prokofy Neva: Joel, would you have the Extropians like Kurzweil speak at Metanomics?
[20:14]  Joel Savard: i don't know the extropians...
[20:14]  Prokofy Neva: it's interesting that for Beyers Sellers, Kurzweil definitely did not reach the cool factor yet, he's not on the list
[20:14]  Crap Mariner: what do the extropians have to do with business in virtual worlds?
[20:14]  Joel Savard: so i don't know how to answer that question
[20:14]  Prokofy Neva: but he reached it for SLCC
[20:14]  Angela Talamasca: they had a place set up in the haight asbury with two rooms, one iwth a one way mirror. they would actaully spike a john's drink and film it
[20:14]  Prokofy Neva: do you understand who runs SLCC Crap?
[20:14]  Angela Talamasca: its all in their reports to the church committee
[20:15]  Joel Savard: @crap - i think that's the real issue, is that those sorts of issues aren't near the arc of interest for the show in terms of topics
[20:15]  Prokofy Neva: Angela, all your claims here about the evil CIA, which I'm quite prepared to believe is evil in many documented settings, are somewhat put in context by the fact that hippies themselves took all kinds of drugs without having the CIA drug them
[20:15]  Crap Mariner: well ,they seem to keep bringing back the same guests in rotation... jim sink of blue mars was a welcome surprise.
[20:15]  Prokofy Neva: but of course was it Neal Cassady? or one of those Dharma Bums around Kerouac who used to sign up for experiments and be given drugs
[20:15]  Joel Savard: i think the slcc is put together by a different crew every year, from what i understand, with some carryover from year to year - volunteers
[20:16]  Crap Mariner: futures united took it over. nex and others.
[20:16]  Prokofy Neva: Nexeus has been on it for 2 years I think, it used to be Flipper, but Flipper is supposedly off it onw
[20:16]  Prokofy Neva: wasn't Futures United Flipper tho? or?
[20:16]  Angela Talamasca: right, prok but the hippies took the drugs much later than the cia project
[20:16]  Angela Talamasca: but anyway that's a story for another day.
[20:16]  Prokofy Neva: But you can't say that they took the drugs BECAUSE the CIA experimented with it
[20:17]  Crap Mariner: i just know there will be friends and some good music. heh.
[20:17]  Prokofy Neva: all those inventors of LSD experimented on themselves, they didn't need any CIA
[20:17]  Prokofy Neva: how is the music scene shaping up this year?
[20:17]  Crap Mariner: it's getting there
[20:18]  Angela Talamasca: the cia gave the drugs to numerous psychiatry researchers who thought it might be the next psychiatric break through. these guys in turn, set up experiements with students.
[20:18]  Angela Talamasca: it didn't go mainstream until the mid 60s or there abouts.
[20:19]  Prokofy Neva: well Joel, let me try asking this a different way: don't you think SLCC having a kook like Kurzweil discredits SLCC, and by extension SL? and makes it fall into the bin of "weirdness" that gives it bad media coverage? or do you think media is now snowed on this Kurzweil stuff too so it won't matter?
[20:19]  Angela Talamasca: timothy leary, one of the original researchers, left academia bc the us govt decided to illegalize lsd. no more mind candy, so to speak.
[20:20]  Prokofy Neva: Angela: I've read all about the CIA and LSD. I've read the same things you have. And I have concluded: the CIA didn't get weaponized use out of it that they wished, and did not pursue it in any mass way, and the hippie culture did, without any CIA. Do you disagree? I read Milbrook and eveyr other thing out there around this, but at the end of the day, you can't just read books and read Internet links, you have to look at the facts on the ground over time: there is no war use of LSD by the CIA in any theater, anywhere.
[20:20]  Joel Savard: i'm going to have to jump guys.. good to see you
[20:20]  Prokofy Neva: hahaha Joel you're hilarious
[20:20]  Crap Mariner: i'm needed for something as well. not with joel, though. he's not my type.
[20:21]  Prokofy Neva: I guess that's how you evade uncomfortable questions
[20:21]  Angela Talamasca: nite,joel. :-)
[20:21]  Prokofy Neva: but they need to be asked
[20:21]  Joel Savard: heh
[20:21]  Joel Savard: agreed crap
[20:21]  Crap Mariner: nah. i tend to feign death
[20:21]  Angela Talamasca: but back to the singularity.
[20:21]  Joel Savard: poofs
[20:21]  Angela Talamasca: one thing i find interesting is their list of advisors.
[20:21]  Angela Talamasca: http://singularityu.org/academics/faculty-advisors/
[20:21]  Crap Mariner: whew
[20:21]  Prokofy Neva: well who are all those old white guys? do you recognize any of them?
[20:22]  Angela Talamasca: some of them. mostly the ones from stanford
[20:22]  Prokofy Neva: ugh Henrik has gotten on the list
[20:22]  Prokofy Neva: see they are attracting more and more people to make themselves seem mainstream
[20:22]  Prokofy Neva: university people
[20:23]  Prokofy Neva: someone was saying earlier than Ben Goetzel is critical of Kurzweil, but that's fake
[20:23]  Angela Talamasca: yup. lots of university peeps and a few gov peeps. this is gonna be great fodder for conspiracy theorists.
[20:23]  Prokofy Neva: he is put up to make it seem like they have debate
[20:23]  Prokofy Neva: bu the's one of them, and on this list
[20:23]  Prokofy Neva: well people often accuse me of conspiracy theory, but all I do is ask questions
[20:24]  Prokofy Neva: and as you can see, I can't even get Mr. Metanomics here to answer an admittedly pointed question as to whether he thinks this discredits SLCC to have Kurzweil
[20:24]  Angela Talamasca: lol, i think of you as a sort of lightening rod... someone who asks the hard, yet important questions. :-)
[20:24]  Prokofy Neva: most likely he doesn't want to be left behind if this is where the cool kids are going, or just doesn't see what's wrong with kurzweil
[20:24]  Prokofy Neva: well I don't have a conspiracy theory
[20:25]  Prokofy Neva: I never heard of Extropia before being banned from its island
[20:25]  Prokofy Neva: I just began to ask questions and read about it, and it seemed very cult-like
[20:25]  Angela Talamasca: i agree. it is very cult like.
[20:25]  Prokofy Neva: I see some of the Twitter early pioneers on this list who argue with me all the time or block me
[20:25]  Angela Talamasca: i also think there is something very cultish about this singularity u. lol
[20:26]  Angela Talamasca: can't quite put my finger on it. perhaps its the hype. don't know for sure
[20:26]  Prokofy Neva: I began to really question spimes when my criticism of it led to my article being blocked from showing up at technorati where my blog prviously always showed up
[20:27]  Prokofy Neva: and I found it was blocked simply, and likely by Joi Ito, and I publicized that and protested and then it got visible again, but I ahve to wonder about that
[20:27]  Prokofy Neva: It's awful how it has sort of mainstreamed itself, so that people who are a bit culty to start with then get brought into this, like the Wordpress guy
[20:27]  Prokofy Neva: so they can then claim they have massive numbers of followers by having massive numbers of users of their social media
[20:27]  Prokofy Neva: see that's why I think you have to stand up now and say "no"
[20:28]  Prokofy Neva: I'm sorry to see even Will Wright is there : (
[20:28]  Angela Talamasca: sure and it parades itself under the rubric of science, so people will be more likely to buy into it.
[20:28]  Prokofy Neva: but perhaps I have always been wrong about him.
[20:28]  Prokofy Neva: what's interesting is that on this list, you do not see "Dr. so and so, biologist, Johns Hopkins"
[20:29]  Prokofy Neva: what you see are "Bob Wonderful, CEO, Wonderco, Inc."
[20:29]  Prokofy Neva: it's all these weird consultants, think tanks, silicon Valley concoctions
[20:29]  Prokofy Neva: there's a NASA guy
[20:29]  Angela Talamasca: yeah, some very weird "institutions"
[20:30]  Angela Talamasca: yeah, that's ames research
[20:30]  Angela Talamasca: oh, odyssey moon limited.
[20:30]  Angela Talamasca: how about a trip to the moon?
[20:30]  Prokofy Neva: it will be interesting to see at which point the Twitter devs will go on this list.
[20:30]  Sutherland Dam Tip Jar: Received donation of L$100 from Bouncing Box.
[20:30]  Prokofy Neva: thanks Bouncing
[20:30]  Prokofy Neva: comments?
[20:31]  Angela Talamasca: am not seeing any real big name AI folk though.
[20:31]  Prokofy Neva: well I see a lot of California
[20:31]  Prokofy Neva: LOTS of California
[20:31]  Prokofy Neva: this is a Left coast thing for sure
[20:31]  Prokofy Neva: and I see "bioengineering"
[20:31]  Angela Talamasca: that's cuz its housed in the old nike airforce base
[20:31]  Prokofy Neva: but I don't see medical, biology of the non-tech sort that you'd expect would be consulted or part of this concept of invading the body with nanobots.
[20:32]  Angela Talamasca: yup, they would need bioengineering for their nanobots
[20:32]  Prokofy Neva: What is that?
[20:33]  Prokofy Neva: This list is the most disturbing thing I've seen in a long time.
[20:33]  Angela Talamasca: i agree!
[20:33]  Prokofy Neva: It's one thing when they have a small group of nobody nutters in an institute that closes amid scandal; it's another when they are reborn with a list of 100 people, 30 of whom might be reputable
[20:33]  Prokofy Neva: it shows the value of chutzpah and saying you have to pay $25,000
[20:33]  Prokofy Neva: Who is this guy Diamandis?
[20:34]  Prokofy Neva: http://singularityu.org/about/board-of-trustees/dr-peter-diamandis/
[20:34]  Bouncing Box: It is 5:30 am here, it is a bit over my time to fully understand it all. I have to re-read my log and follow your links tomorrow. Good night for now.
[20:34]  Prokofy Neva: should I wonder about people with MDs who never practice medicine?
[20:34]  Prokofy Neva: ok thanks for coming
[20:36]  Angela Talamasca: lol, well, there are lots of MD types who never practice medicine. they're often referred to as researchers. lol
[20:36]  Prokofy Neva: well do you think these advisors are really intimately involved? or could they have merely been asked if they wanted to be put on a mailing list, and then found themselves called "advisors"?
[20:37]  Angela Talamasca: my gut says they're not intimately involved.
[20:37]  Prokofy Neva: look at the ethics track
[20:37]  Prokofy Neva: their notion of following law and ethics and governance means basically seeing "how can we make sure law can change so we can get to do this?"
[20:37]  Angela Talamasca: i expect they were contacted with something akin to, hey, we've got this great idea and want to invite you to join our board of advisor.
[20:38]  Prokofy Neva: http://singularityu.org/academics/tracks/#policy
[20:38]  Angela Talamasca: people in academia and elsewhere will always jump at the chance to add yet another org to their vita
[20:39]  Angela Talamasca: ugh => "the proactionary principle; policy and legal issues of environment crisis, and ethical issues around anticipated human manipulations"
[20:39]  Angela Talamasca: anticipated human manipulations?
[20:39]  Prokofy Neva: the proactionary principle is one of their cultic buzzwords
[20:40]  Prokofy Neva: I'm still trying to read what it's about but it has "cult" stamped all over it
[20:40]  Angela Talamasca: oh, i completely agree.
[20:40]  Prokofy Neva: well here's the thing -
[20:40]  Prokofy Neva: the reason why they are called "nanobots" is because they're nano
[20:40]  Prokofy Neva: tiny!
[20:40]  Prokofy Neva: so, how do we know that they aren't ALREADY in our bloodstream, let's say?
[20:40]  Angela Talamasca: then again, like i ended my blog post with.... you too, can join the church of singularity!
[20:40]  Prokofy Neva: oh give me your post link again
[20:41]  Angela Talamasca: *blog
[20:41]  Prokofy Neva: I get so many IMs and then I log off and the ydon't save
[20:41]  Angela Talamasca: http://blog.vrhacks.net/?p=144
[20:41]  Prokofy Neva: the "ethics" committee looks a little bit too much fox in the chicken coop for me
[20:41]  Angela Talamasca: oh, i agree.
[20:41]  Prokofy Neva: well will anyone make independent ethics committees?
[20:42]  Angela Talamasca: the thing is creepy as a whole.
[20:42]  Angela Talamasca: then again, i would love to engage some of those folk in a debate. lol
[20:43]  Prokofy Neva: well I had a friend from TSO who came to SL but doesn't come on here any more, and is now an ex-friend, who used to be very into AI, who studied it in college, and who did it
[20:43]  Prokofy Neva: and had a big interest in all this stuff, and would have been happy to jump on any secular, transhumanist thing
[20:43]  Prokofy Neva: but I never heard him tout Kurzweil
[20:43]  Angela Talamasca: lol
[20:43]  Prokofy Neva: reading your blog
[20:43]  Angela Talamasca: k
[20:44]  Prokofy Neva: when I first saw "neural networks" on the bio of what Philip is interested in
[20:44]  Prokofy Neva: on his avatar, go and look
[20:44]  Prokofy Neva: I thought they were an engineering thing, a kind of circuitry
[20:44]  Prokofy Neva: that was "like" brain neurons
[20:44]  Prokofy Neva: but not going to BE them
[20:44]  Prokofy Neva: that they were in computers, not people
[20:44]  Prokofy Neva: and I looked them up on Wikipedia or whatever, five years ago
[20:45]  Angela Talamasca: yeah, neural networks is basically trying to mimic the brain, and is the primary thesis behind speech recognition
[20:45]  Prokofy Neva: and it sounded like "neural networks" were just these tekkie computer things
[20:45]  Prokofy Neva: but I didn't think that in mimicing the brain they would then inject into and take over the brain
[20:45]  Prokofy Neva: he never said that anyway lol
[20:45]  Angela Talamasca: no, those are two different things.
[20:45]  Prokofy Neva: Neural nets, digital physics.
[20:46]  Prokofy Neva: but they aren't, by the time the Singularists get their hand son them
[20:46]  Prokofy Neva: so it seems
[20:46]  Angela Talamasca: someone proposed that if we modeled software after the way brain neurons interconnect, we could increase our chances toward AI. hence, neural nets were born.
[20:46]  Prokofy Neva: and then?
[20:47]  Angela Talamasca: well, that's pretty much the foundation of ai.
[20:47]  Angela Talamasca: but pattern recognition was still pretty shaky, so fuzzy logic came along to try to solve that bit
[20:47]  Prokofy Neva: Singularists don't accept the chinese room as an argument
[20:47]  Angela Talamasca: lol
[20:48]  Prokofy Neva: good point: Singularity U is not a real university
[20:48]  Angela Talamasca: well, imo, the closest we'll get to a technological singularity is the dependence we already have on machines.
[20:48]  Prokofy Neva: but...who cares, we are so beyond that right?
[20:48]  Angela Talamasca: yup
[20:49]  Angela Talamasca: i do find it rather curious that the government is involved in this project though.
[20:49]  Prokofy Neva: well have you ever read C.S. Lewis' That Hideous Strength?
[20:49]  Prokofy Neva: I put it in my story in SLB6
[20:50]  Angela Talamasca: that is, singularity u is housed out at nike airforce base.
[20:50]  Prokofy Neva: it's remarkably prescient
[20:50]  Prokofy Neva: well the government is filled with kooks lol
[20:50]  Prokofy Neva: that isn't surprising
[20:50]  Angela Talamasca: no, i haven't read that particular book.
[20:50]  Prokofy Neva: there are all kinds of nutter extremists hiding out in mid-level bureaucratic jobs
[20:50]  Angela Talamasca: lol
[20:50]  Prokofy Neva: well you might find it interesting
[20:50]  Prokofy Neva: I Federal Expressed it to Philip soon after meeting him in the welcome area that first time
[20:51]  Prokofy Neva: I guess I was actively fearful that his ideologies would spread without resistance, without debate, that he would have SL to do that
[20:51]  Prokofy Neva: of course, SL is not an even distributor of viral concepts
[20:51]  Prokofy Neva: apparently there is now a U of Mich study of some of this, but they chose gestures to study, which I find odd, as that isn't really used by everyone
[20:51]  Angela Talamasca: is philip a... extropian, or whatever that term is?
[20:51]  Prokofy Neva: I've never heard him say that, no.
[20:51]  Angela Talamasca: ah, okay
[20:52]  Prokofy Neva: but, he has some of the same ideas
[20:52]  Prokofy Neva: perhaps they have learned to scrub out the stuff that seems weird
[20:52]  Prokofy Neva: there are no Lindens in this list
[20:52]  Prokofy Neva: except Henrik!
[20:52]  Prokofy Neva: he's an ex-Linden
[20:52]  Angela Talamasca: oh really?
[20:52]  Angela Talamasca: lol
[20:52]  Prokofy Neva: yes
[20:52]  Prokofy Neva: he is the one who came here and studied SL in some grad student program or something
[20:52]  Angela Talamasca: was wondering where the lindens were
[20:52]  Prokofy Neva: and he coined the very concept of augmented and immersive realities
[20:53]  Angela Talamasca: oh yeah, think i heard about that
[20:53]  Prokofy Neva: note the picture of Ray in front of the NASA research park sign
[20:53]  Prokofy Neva: that implies a kind of NASA endorsement
[20:53]  Prokofy Neva: which is odd
[20:54]  Angela Talamasca: i found it interesting that moravec isn't on their list.
[20:54]  Angela Talamasca: esp considering his stuff is so in line with their seeming goal.
[20:54]  Prokofy Neva: who is that?
[20:54]  Prokofy Neva: perhaps they have quarrels among themselves
[20:54]  Angela Talamasca: hans moravec of the "moravec transfer" he is the one who proposed uploading the brain into the computer by cloning braincells.
[20:54]  Prokofy Neva: perhaps someone at central command, someone has decided the Lindens have to be preserved for the revolution, and they will be the outward "pop front" of the movement that isn't traceable to some of the more radical thinkers
[20:55]  Prokofy Neva: ok
[20:55]  Prokofy Neva: well you'd think he'd be at this, yes
[20:55]  Prokofy Neva: but did he part ways with them?
[20:55]  Angela Talamasca: here's his page. http://www.frc.ri.cmu.edu/~hpm/
[20:55]  Prokofy Neva: it's interesting that you call this a kind of "eugenics"
[20:55]  Angela Talamasca: not sure if he ever was in with them.
[20:55]  Prokofy Neva: this is what this cultic dude who was just here and left  in a huff keeps IMing me now
[20:55]  Prokofy Neva: he asks me how I will use MY nanotechnology
[20:56]  Angela Talamasca: hmmm, that's what it sorta seems like to me.
[20:56]  Prokofy Neva: and he says snidely "and I think I know how"
[20:56]  Prokofy Neva: and I said, but...I don't have any nanotechnology
[20:56]  Prokofy Neva: nor do I seek it
[20:56]  Prokofy Neva: I have lots of questions about having it used on anybody
[20:56]  Prokofy Neva: and...why can't I do that?
[20:56]  Angela Talamasca: you have great questions. :-)
[20:56]  Prokofy Neva: you know, for years, we're in a context, SL, with all the social media around it, and all the goofyness, that is still rather a bubble
[20:56]  Prokofy Neva: and so something like Chris Anderson's Long Tail and Free are taken as gospels
[20:57]  Prokofy Neva: and everyone agrees that they are cool and nobody questions it and everybody reads it
[20:57]  Prokofy Neva: except...this everybody is only 117,000 people, let's say
[20:57]  Prokofy Neva: or let's say, 570 people who really really care, and their larger networks
[20:57]  Prokofy Neva: but then all it takes is one Malcolm Gladwell in the New Yorker
[20:57]  Prokofy Neva: to just pierce the veil
[20:57]  Prokofy Neva: to make sense
[20:57]  Prokofy Neva: to debunk the Big Lie
[20:58]  Angela Talamasca: lol. yup
[20:58]  Prokofy Neva: but then, just when you think, ah, progress, the Right Coast will prevail over the Left Coast
[20:58]  Angela Talamasca: more like, to push people to think. lol
[20:58]  Prokofy Neva: then Nicholas Kristof has a piece appluading brain chemistry determinism
[20:58]  Prokofy Neva: he even makes it sound like evolutionary stalls on brain chemistry for some people have caused them not to back anti-global warming measures in congress
[20:58]  Prokofy Neva: and then the comments are off to the races
[20:59]  Angela Talamasca: lolol
[20:59]  Prokofy Neva: then then have a racist theory that isn't about race, but political classes who believe certain things, some right, some wrong, that they can invoke "science" for
[20:59]  Prokofy Neva: it's like those people with theories of racial superiority
[20:59]  Prokofy Neva: or like the Russians and their physiognomy theories
[20:59]  Prokofy Neva: of the 19th century
[20:59]  Prokofy Neva: it's like that
[20:59]  Prokofy Neva: isn't it?
[20:59]  Angela Talamasca: ah, but that is the key, isn't it? invoke "science"
[20:59]  Prokofy Neva: did you read Khristof? I was appalled.
[21:00]  Prokofy Neva: let me find it
[21:00]  Angela Talamasca: and people will buy into it, regardless of how crazy it is.
[21:00]  Angela Talamasca: no, don't think i read that. though, i did read gladwell's peice.
[21:01]  Prokofy Neva: http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/01/when-our-brains-misjudge-risk/
[21:01]  Angela Talamasca: thanks. :-)
[21:02]  Prokofy Neva: wait start here: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/02/opinion/02kristof.html?_r=2
[21:02]  Prokofy Neva: he then backtracks a tad in that next one
[21:02]  Prokofy Neva: but the first one draws out all the fascist racist sort of thing
[21:02]  Prokofy Neva: only not "racist" but "classist" or "politicized"
[21:02]  Prokofy Neva: like Stalin
[21:02]  Prokofy Neva: Stalin was just Nazism with class and political thought as the race
[21:03]  Prokofy Neva: a woman was put in the Gulag because when asked what she was, she said "traktorist" i.e. a tractor driver, and the NKVD thought she said "Trotskist" a follower of Trotsky
[21:03]  Prokofy Neva: my father in law was forced into collectivization because his father painted their tin roof red, and that seemed to mean they were "bourgeois"
[21:04]  Prokofy Neva: this is why technocommunism is what I call these ideas rather than fascism, but Kurzweil strikes me as more about fascism than communism
[21:05]  Angela Talamasca: ah, well, he seems to be well aboard the evolutionary psychology bandwagon. lol
[21:07]  Angela Talamasca: the biggest prob with evol psych is the presumption that we are genetically pedestined to ... whatever
[21:08]  Angela Talamasca: i personally think his "explanation" is over simplified.
[21:08]  Angela Talamasca: i am admittedly unsure about technocommunisim. or technofascism, as you are the first person i have ever heard use that term.
[21:09]  Angela Talamasca: though, i def found your "why singularity is fascism" to be more than intriguing. in fact, i think you put forth an excellent argument to support your contention.
[21:11]  Prokofy Neva: sorry I had to write to Kristof I was so APPALLED
[21:11]  Angela Talamasca: ah, okay. lol
[21:11]  Prokofy Neva: well I'm done
[21:12]  Prokofy Neva: if you don't get to the comments at 1 am the mods will close it
[21:12]  Prokofy Neva: and I may still be dumped
[21:12]  Prokofy Neva: well I think it's interesting that you are willing to entertain my concerns about singularism as fascism
[21:13]  Prokofy Neva: when I began thinking about it, it seemed rather clear to me, the parallels of the idea that a certain group within society -- corporativism -- enlightened scientists going to this university -- were rather high-handed in this, without restraint
[21:13]  Prokofy Neva: now that I've seen the "ethics committee" i have to worry more
[21:13]  Angela Talamasca: well, i think u bring up some important ideas
[21:13]  Prokofy Neva: it would be better if they simply didn't have ethics, which is the truth about them
[21:13]  Prokofy Neva: but now they have a fake ethics committee, to keep people running in circles
[21:13]  Prokofy Neva: so they use the Bolshevik simulation method too
[21:13]  Prokofy Neva: Bolsheviks would hollow out the real artists' group and make the simulated artists group
[21:14]  Prokofy Neva: if they had to kill or exile some of the real they would
[21:14]  Prokofy Neva: if they had to coopt or intimidate some of the real or enlist them playing on their vanity, like Gorky, they would
[21:14]  Angela Talamasca: yeah, well, there is something really facile about their so-called university.
[21:14]  Prokofy Neva: so to me that sort of thing looks like calculated Bolshevism
[21:14]  Prokofy Neva: but I realize they may not sit around and say "Let's see how Lunacharsky would do this!"
[21:15]  Prokofy Neva: instead, they probably just say "How can we maximize our influence using all these EST-like techniques we've all studied for years"
[21:15]  Angela Talamasca: lol. probably not. but they def play on people's desire to be "special"
[21:15]  Prokofy Neva: this list of advisors is NOT the list of pepole who paid $25,000
[21:15]  Prokofy Neva: those people may be schmos from Columbus OH who are unemployed Twitterers
[21:15]  Angela Talamasca: whether it's being "special" by being on their board or by being "accepted" into their elite uni.
[21:16]  Prokofy Neva: well it's a marketized Bolshevism because you can either get in by being picked for the central committee, or buy your way in
[21:16]  Angela Talamasca: yup
[21:17]  Angela Talamasca: oh well, i need to get going.
[21:18]  Angela Talamasca: i really do enjoy reading your posts.
[21:18]  Angela Talamasca: take care. :-)

P.S. Here's what this Zen was IMing me in fury -- he left making a snide comment so I Im'd him to dish it right back to him lol:

[19:38]  Prokofy Neva: Creepy fascism, thanks for helping to confirm it. Extropians who are so "positive" and "so open minded" and "have no religion or set philosophy" can't bear it when anyone subjects their cult to the slightest criticism. Creepy!
[19:39]  Zen Zeddmore: um my only message there was WHAT would you do with YOUR nanotech? You just wouldn't anser. I know why.
[19:40]  Prokofy Neva: Er, I don't have any nanotech, and don't seek any, I don't think the intrusiveness of such a device would be warranted.
[19:41]  Prokofy Neva: I'm not aware of any sound peer-reviewed biological studies of the feasibility of these claims anyway. It's a cult.
[19:41]  Zen Zeddmore: but you WILL have nanotech. What will you do with it?
[19:41]  Prokofy Neva: People in cults always make angry faux-superior wise comments like "We all know what YOU would do" ROFL you're ridiculous lol
[19:42]  Prokofy Neva: I don't have any nanotech, nor seek it. I don't even have a mobile phone, dear. I'm not likely to live to the day when this becomes viable, which, God forbid, I hope comes long in the future
[19:42]  Zen Zeddmore: I'm ASKING what you would do? You obviously have a computer to run SL.
[19:42]  Prokofy Neva: the question is to those who think they will create it tomorrow what will YOU do with it, not me, who has not got it nor does not seek it
[19:43]  Prokofy Neva: I do not seek any nanotechnology for any purpose. I'm happy to keep my bloodstream and those of my fellow human beings free of your coded and scripted devices.
[19:43]  Prokofy Neva: so the question comes back to you, wise guy
[19:43]  Prokofy Neva: why did the Extropia Institute close? and where is Sophrosyne?
[19:44]  Zen Zeddmore: I repeat. Will you devise anti bot bots to protect yoursellf from hackers or will you be a victim?
[19:46]  Prokofy Neva: why did the Extropia Institute close? and where is Sophrosyne?
[19:46]  Zen Zeddmore: i have no idea why. Why don't you ask them?
[19:47]  Prokofy Neva: She's gone. And they closed and have no comment (they may not be related). what is your own need to be in this cult?
[19:47]  Prokofy Neva: People who are really comfortable with their ideas and lives don't need to angrily impose them on others and scorn criticism. so there's something up here, it is very cult like.
[19:48]  Zen Zeddmore: we often talk about interesting topics such as life extension sensory enhancement. VR, AR and extraaterrestrial exploration
[19:49]  Zen Zeddmore: um i think most peopl will seem outrageously defensive when you broach them with ARE YOU A FUCKING FACSIST?
[19:49]  Zen Zeddmore: I'm just saying maybe the prolem is your approach prok. just maybe.
[19:54]  Prokofy Neva: Er, but you are a fucking fascist, as anyone can see, you are closeminded cultists, and that needs to be said, and if no one else will say it, I will
[19:55]  Prokofy Neva: These topics are not "interesting" they are "controversial" and fraught with implications for governance and morality which you lightly dismiss, and that's wrong
[19:55]  Prokofy Neva: and if you dont' want to hear it from me, you will hear it from those far less liberal than I am, with far more power than I have to challenge you *shrugs*
[20:00]  Zen Zeddmore: shrugs after calling me a fascist? Well what the fuck? I'd always heard you were an asshole. I hadn't thought so from our earlier encounters. Go check you logs Prok, I was quite supportive of you. I'll Keep my nanotech for myself and do my best to keep it from you if that's what would make you happy. (fucking loser)
[20:01]  Zen Zeddmore: by the way When some one TP's away to cease conversation. Is it rude to follow them in IM?
[20:02]  Prokofy Neva: Er, I would think you are the fucking loser if you can't take any criticism of your cult, but thanks for confirming that.
[20:03]  Zen Zeddmore: I think I shall mute you you irksome annoying little twerp. Your aren't being critical you are lamblasting a hundred strawmen for the itchy gottcha that trolls lik eyou love so much
[20:03]  Zen Zeddmore: bye bye troll
[20:03]  Prokofy Neva: I love it when people emotionally black mail you as a way of trying to gain power over you by saying "Oh, but I defended you" when they didn't even do that. Asshole.
[20:04]  Prokofy Neva: I'm not a troll, I merely a critic of techological hubris. Guess you can't take it.

I'll add here that when that guy was jamming on me with this repeated question about what would I do with "my nanotech," I didn't even see his question. Things scroll by fast, and you miss some of it. I had customers in the other window asking questions, and just couldn't answer everything.

It was a strange question, too. It seemed to be predicated on the idea that I'd be ethical and ask questions about intrusive nanobots only until I was allowed to have "my own," then I'd "sic them" on people for...whatever reason. It seemed a crazy mirror image of in fact what THESE people are doing THEMSELVES.

I'm not the one demanding, predicting, or planning for nanobots.

I don't want them, need them, nor do I want to be on a committee to prescribe their "ethical use" because that would legitimate the ideas.

If such a committee of real genuine independent experts formed of doctors, lawyers, etc. who aren't these extremists, that would be good, and that's what is needed.

I can't fathom a case when I'd have "my own nanobots" to use for good or ill. I don't mind having myself pricked for a blood test, but I'm not interested in something permanently being inserted -- fillings are enough of a problem in your teeth lol.

Nor can I imagine a case where I'd want a fleet of these tiny devices to put in other people, say "my children" so that they wouldn't get abducted -- I think there are other ways I could work to prevent that without harming their health or freedom. Surely?

Why would my normal, ethical questioning of this awful stuff be construed as "trolling"? See, that's why this entire culture of hate that geeks set up has to be stopped in its tracks, over and over again, because the use the language and culture of games and forums to stop ethical debate on what they are doing with science-fiction like tech.

Note that what this Zen implies is that my choice not to use his wonderful nanotechnology makes me a "fucking loser," oh, like somebody who wouldn't take penicillin or have my kids vaccinated. That sort of thing. A Luddite, FUDite, etc.

Why can't we debate people like that? surely we can! and their allergenic tetchiness over this tells us reams about how cultic they are already.

Life-enhancing technology? Life-extending technology? But the roots of that utopianism and its quest are in fact fascistic in nature because they involve controlling human beings with technology, not having humans control technology.

What is smart?

Comments

[June Trefoil]

My understanding of the Singularity (and the technoloby to bring it about) is real incomplete so I'm going through some of the sites offered at your Friday salon.

I always thought I was safe because of Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics, but come to think of, that's never been legislated, has it!

The topic of Friendly AI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_artificial_intelligence

is catching my attention. It looks like this is a check and balance that would be developed by leaders being educated at the Singularity Institute, I guess. Further into the article, Bill Hubbard argues that "there should be broader political involvement in the design of AI and AI morality."

Is this a cult? I don't know. The overview at this site
http://singularityu.org/overview/ is interesting though. The word 'cadre' is off-putting to me. It seems to be interested in harnessing the focus of business people or people with grant money.

Is it appropriate that Kurzweil is invited to be keynote at SLCC? I don't know enough about the whole thing so my ickyness alerts haven't kicked in. But his speech will aired and it'll be interesting to hear it and more importantly, provide an exposure for more people to react.

[Gareth Nelson]

The 3 laws are flawed, for the very simple reason that they're based upon restraining the AI's actions after it has already decided what to do.

Any system like this has 2 problems:
1 - you're essentially building a "firewall" which must evaluate every single desired action - this firewall must itself be intelligent enough to do so in a secure manner and thus must itself have its own firewall, which must have a firewall ad-infinitum

2 - it's pretty dangerous to have an AI that wants to kill you and is only prevented by one system standing in its way...... what makes more sense is to have an AI that wants to help you, no need to restrict it if it does not want to harm you

I would caution people not to look to Kurzweil as their first exposure to these ideas, he's often far too optimistic and over the top, citing precise dates when the singularity will occur etc. $25k for Kurzweil's "singularity school" is also a total ripoff.

2 good names to google:
Elizer Yudowsky
Ben Goertzel

[Extropia DaSilva]

If I remember correctly, the Extropian movement was closed because Max More considered it to have become a wide-spread meme. Its message had gotten out so he considered that 'job done'. He then decided to concentrate on something called the 'proactionary principles. You can read them at

http://www.extropy.org/proactionaryprinciple.htm

'18:49] Prokofy Neva: I remember I used to see these books about Singularity and here people rant about it but it seemed right up there with UFO stuff... It's Heaven's Gate perhaps in a lite form'.

Max More has expressed concern regarding the cultish aspects of the Singularity. In an interview with Kurzweil he said, "In the Western world, especially in millennarian Christianity, millions are attracted to the notion of sudden salvation and of a "rapture" in which the saved are taken away to a better place...

...I am concerned that the Singularity concept is especially prone to being hijacked by this memeset. This danger especially arises if the Singularity is thought of as occurring at a specific point in time, and even more if it is seen as an inevitable result of the work of others. I fear that many otherwise rational people will be tempted to see the Singularity as a form of salvation, making personal responsibility for the future unnecessary. Already, I see a distressing number of superlongevity advocates who apparently do not exercise or eat healthily, instead firmly hoping that medical technology will cure aging before they die. Clearly this abdication of personal responsibility is not inherent in the Singularity concept".

Another example, this time quoted from Damien Broderick's book "The Spike". "The singularity concept has all the earmarks of an idea that can lead to cultishness, and passivity. There's a tremenous amount of hard work to be done, and intellectually masturbating about a supposed Singularity is not going to get us anywhere".

That is not to say that Moore does not believe we can build (or become) greater-than-human intelligence. After all, he did say "I do anticipate a Singularity in the form of a growing surge in the pace of change, leading to a transhuman transition". He was merely cautioning against anticipating this as an inevitable event. I dunno, maybe it would be kind of funny if we got to 2045 and there is no Singularity. Kurzweil and co are wondering why not, when it hits them "wait..all we did was make keynote addresses about how smart AI was going to be, without actually doing anything towards making it happen..."

"the idea that all technology is good".

Who believes this? The extropians? If so, why does More write things like "evaluate risk according to available science, not popular perception, and allow for common reasoning biases" and "Treat technological risks on the same basis as natural risks; avoid underweighting natural risks and overweighting human-technological risks. Fully account for the benefits of technological advances"? Transhumanists? How come there is a paper by Kurzweil called "nanotechnology dangers and defences"? How do you explain the existence of the Singularity Institute, an organization that works to ensure superintelligent technology does not pose an existential risk to humanity?

Nobody can deny that the H+ community concentrates mostly on the supposed benefits. We do see technology and science mostly in a positive light. But to say the negative side is totally ignored is demonstratably nonsense.

Nanobots...Well if you want an example of breezy dismissal of people's concerns, Kris Pister (he directed UC Berkely's Smart Dust project) is hard to beat:

"Yes, personal privacy is getting harder and harder to come by. Yes, you can hype Smart Dust as being great for Big Brother...Yawn. Every technology has a dark side- deal with it".

[Darien Caldwell]

I couldn't help noticing that Joel Savard (isn't that the late Sidewinder Linden?)kept pushing the notion that Nanobots are in effect the same as medicine. Lets say that's true. That still doesn't give the right for the government, or anybody, to administer 'medicine' to anyone against their will. Do I have to explain what it means to drug the populace in order to control them means? I hope I don't.

[Ann Otoole]

Is your tap water fluoridated Darien?

[Gareth Nelson]

"That still doesn't give the right for the government, or anybody, to administer 'medicine' to anyone against their will"

Strawman......

[Desmond Shang]

"Every technology has a dark side- deal with it"

Technology doesn't inherently have dark sides at all, it's all in people's usage. What this quote is asking us to do is deal with other people's use of technology, whatever that might be.

So let's deal with it. Starting with: why does Extropia (the location) still ban Prok?

Shutting out someone for their ideas... this rings *all kinds* of alarm bells for me.

[Angela Talamasca]

@Prokofy Neva: it's interesting that you call this a kind of "eugenics"

My response: Julian Huxley coined the term "transhumanism" to replace the term "eugenics" after people learned the Hitler's Germany was largely based upon the American Eugenics program.

Btw, and aside, Dale Carrico has a rather interesting take on this material.

Debating Singularitarians

Eugenics and the Denigration of Consent

[Angela Talamasca]

ETA: the links

http://amormundi.blogspot.com/2007/10/debating-singularitarians.html

http://amormundi.blogspot.com/2008/01/eugenics-and-denigration-of-consent.html

[Angela Talamasca]

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The Age of Transitions 4/9 (transhuman eugenics / genetics)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIkYj7jegk8

[Darien Caldwell]

It's not a strawman, it's a fact. These singularity people want to do this to everyone. Calling it a strawman is a strawman.

[EnCore Mayne]

thank you for your youtube link on the transitions series Angela. i think it puts mr Kurzweil and his ilk into a much more sinister (and wholey accurate) frame of reference.

[Dirk Talamasca]

Ray needs to go back to making keyboards. What comes out of them sounds a lot better than anything that comes out of his mouth.

[HatHead Rickenbacker]

A technological dictatorship is pretty much inevitable regardless of whose face we decide to give it, especially once all cash becomes digital and we live in an 'internet of things'.

As far as Ray et al go, the Bilderberg group is a way more compelling conspiracy with regards to world domination as it is actually in play where there only promises of the future from the Singularity.

Great discussion on this blog - cheers!

[Gareth Nelson]

"These singularity people want to do this to everyone"

First define "these singularity people". It would be more accurate to say "most transhumanists think everyone will take advantage of these new technologies once they're available", which makes a lot of sense given the theoretical benefits.

You don't want nanobots in your bloodstream? Fine, don't go and get the injection when they become available. Show me anyone who has proposed injecting them against people's will.

[Extropia DaSilva]

Jack The Ripper removed his victims' organs using surgical tools.

Surgeons sometimes remove people's organs using surgical tools.

Conclusion: All surgeons are serial killers.

This argument is as flawed as 'transhumanists are nazi eugenicists'. People seem to think that, since eugenics believed there aught to be a superior human race, and transhumanists view the human animal as something that can be improved, they are identical.

This is simply not the case. H+ seeks to give every individual the means to improve themselves in ways that seem best to them, personally. It is not about moulding everybody into some preconceived notion of 'perfection'. It is not about marching those who are deemed unfit to extermination camps (though some might argue that selecting embryos on the basis of 'good' versus 'bad' genes is murder).

The central point of 'personal choice' does raise issues. Suppose my personal quest for improvement can only be realised at the expense of someone else's? But the idea that such conflicts of interest will be settled via 'might is right', with ray guns levelled at heads and a stern warning to ' do what I want or else'! is highly unlikely, given the H+ movements' preference for reasoned debate.

[ichabod Antfarm]

"Show me anyone who has proposed injecting them against people's will."

You don't think parents will inject their children with them? Insurance companies might demand their customers use the technology or lose their coverage. Governments will positively drool over the ability to inject these things into their citizens. However, coercion need not happen in the crude fashion given in these examples. It can be much more subtle. The cosmetic industry makes its billions by terrorizing us with the spectre of old age. Frankly, it doesn't take much reflection to realize just how much coercion this technology will embody both before and after it makes it into your bloodstream. So, no, the transhumanists don't have to make any positive statements about "forced injections". They well understand that others will do that dirty work for them.

[Gareth Nelson]

"You don't think parents will inject their children with them?"

I must be a child abuser, I "force" my son to take his multivitamin every morning - something artificial that works it's way into his blood stream and works to help lower the risk of various diseases. ZOMG!

Tell me - what is the objective difference between the fairly low-level "enhancement" provided by vitamin supplements and that provided by nanobots? The only difference I can see is how efficient nanobots are in comparison to vitamins in actively working against disease.

I'd go so far as to say that it would be irresponsible for me as a parent to not give my son nanobots if they were available and to instead leave him at risk of preventable diseases. This is also the reason why he's had all the vaccines - as a father I consider it my duty to look out for his health.

Remember that health is what it's all about - if there were nanobots on the market right now that were vastly more efficient than our natural white blood cells and they had undergone all the usual clinical trials you can bet i'd be injecting myself with them and encouraging everyone I care about to do the same.

Consider that in the past the idea of injecting people with antibodies or weakened viruses would have seemed just as outrageous, and even now there are people who rant about vaccines and make up conspiracy theories.

"The cosmetic industry makes its billions by terrorizing us with the spectre of old age"

Doctors get rich from our fears of disease and injury, therefore we should shutdown all hospitals to prevent coercion.

Lawyers get rich from our fears of legal problems, therefore we should shutdown all law firms and courts to prevent coercion. (actually, that may not be all that bad considering some lawyers i've met.....)

Fear of aging == fear of death and disease. It's very rational to want to slow down or counteract it. Unfortunately of course not everyone is going to respond to this rational fear in a rational manner and that is why you have so many "miracle" skin creams on the market advertising everything from "Pro-calcium" to "collagen micro-capsules". This does not however mean that it's irrational to support and make use of things that DO work.

I personally take my supplements daily, a mix of vitamins, anti-oxidants (many synthetic and superior to the naturally occurring ones), neuroprotectives (you're never too young to get into this habit - younger you start the better the chances of delaying senile dementia decades later), adaptogens (some of the usual herbal stuff, ginsengs etc, and some synthetic) and nootropics ("smart pills", i'm a coder - coding requires thinking well). I also avoid passive smoking (and smoking myself of course) and alcohol (I can't stand the stuff anyway - tastes like crap and makes me feel like crap).

On top of that I try to squeeze in some exercise and meditation when possible and I even use more "out there" stuff such as a CES device (cranial electrotherapy stimulation - electrodes placed on the head to enable direct electrical stimulation of the brain).

As far as I see it, nanobots that can more directly intervene within my body to correct any pre-pathological states in any of my organs would just be one more tool for maintaining general health.

[ichabod Antfarm]

Your right to force shit onto your children is not unlimited, Gareth. They are persons and not artifacts and claiming "parental concern" doesn't change the fact that you are manipulating them by manipulating their body chemistry. Now, before you twist what I am saying into some ridiculous reductio ad absurdum, I want to make it clear that I am *not* arguing that parents have no rights at all concerning the administration of medicines to their kids (or any of the other coercions parents practise like "eat your sprouts" and what not!) What I am saying is that when you do these things they are, in fact, coercions and you have to bear that in mind when you are making decisions about what to put inside these little persons who are dependent upon you and your judgement.

Assuming this pixie dust ever develops the capacities the True Believers assure us is inevitable, my question is do you think it will then be ok for parents to insert genome modifying nanobots into their kids (perhaps in the foetal stage) to make them smarter? stronger? whiter? I think it's fair to say that a great number of parents will want that sort of power over their future offspring and they will make the same claims about parental concern in order to justify it. The fact that it is utterly evil will not deter the majority of them from "forcing the injections"; thankfully, democratic processes *will*.

[Gareth Nelson]

"Your right to force shit onto your children is not unlimited, Gareth. They are persons and not artifacts and claiming "parental concern" doesn't change the fact that you are manipulating them by manipulating their body chemistry."
Until a child is old enough to make their own judgements, it is a parent's place to make these decisions - and to go further it's a parent's _duty_ to look out for the health of their children.

There is nothing "utterly evil" about using nanobots to intervene directly in the human body simply because (as prok claimed in the chatlog) they use software rather than being mere chemicals. If a parent is being responsible by giving a painkiller (look up calpol) to a sick child or giving them their vitamins and healthy food why is it somehow "utterly evil" to more efficiently protect their health?

Or is your claim that it is "utterly evil" for adults to use this technology on themselves?

[ichabod Antfarm]

p.s. where I wrote "to make them smarter? stronger? whiter?", I should have added "blonder?" to make the object of my allusion more obvious.

[Gareth Nelson]

Ah yeah, I say "I think it's a good thing to be injected with nanobots if they can massively boost your health" and then you say "ah, but making people more white and blonde is a bad thing you nazi!"

[ichabod Antfarm]

Gareth, are you fully awake? It's obvious I wasn't saying it's "utterly evil" to administer pain killers or other medicines to children. I said it *would be* utterly evil to use nanomachines to change a child's genome in order to "enhance" them. It is "utterly evil" to remove that autonomy of the person, which is the very basis of our human dignity, by interfering with the natural processes which go into making us who we are. To do so is to treat the person as though they were a machine themselves - a thing to be tinkered with, no longer a miracle but a product manufactured to the consumer's specifications.

Transhumanism is a misnomer insofar as it has nothing to do with humanism at all. It's mere bio-mechanical reductionism and Prok is damn right to call it a totalitarianism.

[ichabod Antfarm]

Oh lord, I never called *you* a Nazi and I can't tell if you are being disingenuous or just thick. I suspect there are points of agreement between us but teasing them out would be arduous and ultimately serve little purpose. I've made my arguments to the general audience and I've got nothing more to add.

[Gareth Nelson]

You first talked about altering someone's biochemistry, not their genome. I argued that it is in fact parental duty to alter a child's biochemistry if their body is in a pathological state (read: illness), or in order to prevent bad health and disease.

"Transhumanism is a misnomer insofar as it has nothing to do with humanism at all. It's mere bio-mechanical reductionism and Prok is damn right to call it a totalitarianism."

It's totalitarianism to look upon living things in a reductionist and scientific manner? If so, then doctors and biologists are all fascists. People seem to have an aversion to looking at the human body like an organic machine, but that's what it is. It's a very complex machine built out of proteins which does amazing things, but it's still subject to the laws of physics.

Or are you claiming that the human body is somehow beyond the laws of physics and chemistry? If so, I don't have an answer for that idea.

As to humanism, I once heard a brilliant argument for why transhumanism is an extension of humanism (although personally I consider it to be a different philosophy all together).

It goes like this:

Suppose you have someone who has an IQ of 150, but they are living in an environment full of toxins that will make them lose their intelligence until they go down to 100, if you have a means of preventing this from happening then you should.
The reverse would also seem to be true - if you have a means of boosting someone's intelligence from 100 to 150 (putting aside the obvious fact that bioethics also requires consent) then you should.

If you have a means to save someone's life, then you should do so. This isn't dependent upon some kind of logan's run style expiry date, it's simply a good idea to lengthen lifespans and prevent death where possible.

The idea that it is fascist to help people live longer and healthier lives simply because "you're looking at humans like machines" is downright silly. A doctor who refuses to treat a patient because the treatment was derived by studying the human body "like a machine" is not worthy of praise, to the contrary - they should be condemned for not doing the best they can for their patient.

By the way, if you oppose "bio-mechanical reductionism" you should stay far far away from modern medicine.