California Business Model #Fail

A cautionary tale -- Veoh, which I've noticed more and more is the destination I'm driven to as I click on various videos on YouTube -- is going out of business.

It's driven out of business not only because it was weakened by a lawsuit with Universal Music, but because it didn't have a business model to monetarize all that mindless clicking, including even my own. When my kids tell me to listen to some cool song on Youtube, the reason for most of my visits there, I can't always tell what is "approved" or "not approved". More and more, I see videos described as "the Official Video" of so-and-so musician, with an ad pasted on top of it that partially blocks the bottom as you watch it, and I can't tell -- has this been licensed? If it says "official" and has an ad, surely it would have to be. If it is in the official "channel" it may be -- but not always. Lately, I've clicked through some of the most popular tunes to Veoh, where I have to first sit through a disruptive, interruptive ad before I can watch the video, and I can't slide through. And that's ok. I was just thinking "finally, they've gotten some sense, like TV". But it didn't work well enough and fast enough, apparently.

Universal tried to take Veoh to court for knowingly and deliberately letting users upload copyrighted material. Of course they do that. More and more on Youtube, you do see more evidence of videos blocked, and messages about copyrighted material removed -- and that's a good thing. Sooner or later, they'll figure out how to enable people to buy a subscription to Youtube, that will entitle X number of videos or Y number of viewing hours or something, and the industry will normalize and come out of its technocommunist era. People like me would pay for those subscriptions because we aren't communists and don't have illusions that websites, musicians, and companies can live on air.

Meanwhile, I don't know what Veoh was thinking, not having a way to get paid. Oh, I know what they were thinking, they were using the California business model, as cube3 first explained it to me, which is let lots of copyrighted material on to the system, then let people flounder with DMCA notices, all the while hoping you can sell lots of ads (and maybe CDs? Does anyone buy them?).

The Veoh case was one that the copyleftists pointed to triumphantly as a "win" because the judge threw Universal's claim out of court. But...Veoh, even stealing Universal's music by standing by and letting customers upload it ("safe harbour," "common carrier" and all that), couldn't make a dime. How about that. You would think, the California Business Model would work! But it doesn't, not even that, because the law catches up with them, but even more, the reality of profit and loss. No revenue to cover even expenses.

The moral of the story isn't that you can't stop copyright theft -- you can. It's good there was a lawsuit; and it's good Veoh got a come-uppance in being unable to monetarize even their loot, so to speak. But, all this means that these companies have to grow up and make a workable model where it really is easier for us to make micropayments and get subscriptions to content. There are all sorts of reasons this is a good thing -- revenue to cover costs and get musicians paid. A system to tip musicians, say, each time you listen to their song. Buy a song -- but maybe also be able to tip a musician when/as you wish. A cost for you to upload -- even just a tiny cost. All these lovely payment companies that were displayed at Engage! Expo could be making Youtubebux that people buy and virtually spend "inworld" with paying for songs, uploads, tipping, even paying somebody who aggregates tunes into a nice channel, like a DJ. If you had to pay even a small amount to make a comment -- think of what that would do to the wasteland of youtube comments! Yes, it might be gamed, but isn't everything? And the task now is to make the communist wasteland that the tech giants are bequeathing the next generation become something that can get people paid, rather than teach them communism.

It all has to get a lot simpler and faster and easier:

Recently, I went on Myspace to see a singer and then bought her CD. Or tried to. It's damn hard. I had to go through bunches of pages with different companies offered, some of them simply not working. Finally, I got to one that seemed promising, but it asked for my social security number on the form. While "not required," that struck me as a red flag, so I dropped it and wrote directly to the musician -- couldn't I pay her on PayPal or something? She forwarded my concern to the company, and some snotty asshole tekkie who was running the page lectured me, telling me that I was supposed to figure out that I could ignore that, because it was just a request for companies making bulk orders. But it said Tax ID number, and that was of concern -- that shouldn't be sought -- and it wasn't clear why it even had to be sought for another business (b2b forms could have been a separate link in any event).

Here's what Noel Ramos of Indiegate wrote to me (I'm deleting the musician's name, as she is irrelevant to this transaction and was only embarrassed at what a nit Noel was):

Dear Catherine,

I was informed by one of our wonderful merchants that you experienced some difficulty with our site.

Please let me assure you the IndieGate uses the industry standard for online credit card processing and is completely secure. The requested information you were concerned about is not mandatory, you can simply skip any field that does not have a red asterisk in front of it.

Those fields are there simply to take into account the various types of shoppers who use IndieGate.com, many of whom are other businesses.

We actually require the same info that PayPal requires, which is pretty standard across the web. I do hope you'll revisit [] store and purchase her great new release:

http://www.IndieGate.com

Thank you!

- Noel Ramos

> No, Noel, you're all wrong, and I'll never use your service, and if you want to stop harming those merchants who opt to use your site, you need to chnage.
>
> I use the Internet to shop all over the place.
>
> I am not required to put a tax ID number in on amazon.com or any number of thousands of sites.
>
> If I put in a *credit card number alone* that is sufficient. I'm not required to give my Social Security number to *buy*.
>
> To compare your service where I only *buy things* to PayPal is just completely misleading and false. If I give more information to PayPal it's because I use it to *make and receive payments and withdraw and deposit to my bank*. Very different kind of action.
>
> Just because you have businesses that you think you need a Tax ID number for to work with (and *that* is not making sense either) isn't a reason to confuse and  harass and drive away buyers from CDs.
>
> It is NOT standard all over the web, and you're wrong, and I will be blogging about you. You're not getting it, and your geeky stubborness is preventing you from making sales.
>
> Catherine

Catherine,

I am not sure why you are unable to understand me.

I will explain one last time:

WE DO NOT REQUIRE A SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER OR TAX ID NUMBER.

Those fields do not apply to you, you can simply skip over them. They are only there to accommodate our business customers who may wish to provide that information.

Please do blog about us, thank you.

- Noel

I DON'T GIVE A GOOD GODDAMN IF YOU DON'T REQUIRE THEM, YOU SHOULDN'T PUT THEM THERE ON YOUR FORM SO THAT PEOPLE DON'T THINK THEY HAVE TO SUPPLY THEM, YOU ASSHOLE.

I WILL EXPLAIN ONE LAST TIME AND THEN YOU'LL BE GOING ON MY BLOG: IF YOU DON'T REQUIRE IT, YOU SHOULDN'T PUT IT, DUHHHHH

HAVE A DIFFERENT FORM FOR BUSINESS CUSTOMERS DUHHHHHHH WITH A DIFFERENT LINK THAN CONSUMERS DUHHHHHH

***

And seriously, even a business shouldn't have to put a tax ID number in an order form unless they expect to have a standing order.

I've made all the right arguments; this guy is a controlling asshole trawling and scraping people's ID numbers for no earthly reason.

Now let's come to the avatars of the year -- Stroker Serpentine and Munchflower Zaius. I have to say that the Herald is more than duplicitous here, properly given this pair the prize, but acting as if the Herald itself hasn't provided a home for one of the main griefers of the two, Jumpman Lane. Indeed, the serial stalking and harassment of Jumpan of Stroker in the last few months should have been reported on, if Pixeleen/Mark McCahill wasn't such a wimp and such a stalker himself. There's something very creepy about the way Jumpman has targeted me and others in SL in really aggressive and nasty ways. He's a former tenant, and a deadbeat at that, and I want nothing to do with him. I refused to accept his offer to be part of his sleezy adult magazine, not interested. SO he began griefing me, despite my giving of him ample grace days on his rent, where he maintained a compound with various pathetic and alcoholic housewives. He'll do things like tell people to unfollow me on Twitter, because he's decided that he's jealous that I have more Twitter followers than him (?!). He'll stalk and dog and use alts to harass and bully on forums -- and I see that Stroker really got the treatment.

It's odd, because The Herald/Jumpman/whoever he is shouldn't feel as if they have to protect Linden Lab from Stroker, and bang on Stroker. And it's not like Stroker is competition to somebody's adult magazine or club, having a furniture store. It makes no sense. It's just griefing for griefing's sake, or perhaps a more sinister motive we don't know about.

I don't know what to think about Stroker's case at this point in time. I don't know enough of the issues. In general, I support the premise. I wouldn't want it to lead to Linden shutting down, like Veoh, but I don't think it will. I think the Lindens, like all the Californians, have to pull up their socks and start enforcing policies they've already put in place on content, third-party viewers, bots, etc.

It's awful odd for Linden to be pushing the Facebook outing and real-life profile, and yet still permit free accounts to be made in rapid succession by griefers and theft who make what Stroker describes as a whack-a-mole scene for content heists. And I marvel that I can't make another alt to hold one of my groups together, with the land groups now lagging horribly if over a certain number, even if I give my real name and credit card, and I'm told my household limit is reached, but a griefer can make a day-old anonymous proxied alt and crash my sim. Makes no sense.

Comments

[cube inada]

yeah, what happened to all the "cutomization" of the digital media...

"sorry- one form for all... please ignore the gun pointed at the OTHER guys head."..lol

Sick the impotent but goodwilled Sen Rockafeller on them....."click here to save 10$"

Oh, did i upset ZYGNA and FACEBOOK as well by mentioning him?:) soon...Just wait till Time Warner or FOX buys one of them....

Anyone remember Raph..lol Ralph Nader... no. the old ralph nader--- car-product safety nader... not "president without a party so well destroy him nader"

certainly mr. Toyoda is happy you dont.

i think wall street when it went unregulated was the first to go full on with this "biz plan" using money as the virtual fodder.. CA has now only mechanized and networked the model to everything else... while in the last decade even the king of real product- TOYOTA- allowed the virtualization of value to destroy not only a families name, but real families persons....

at least in another -far -away virtual world.... america.

[cube inada]

http://manga.about.com/b/2010/02/26/nick-simmons-bleach-manga-plagarism-scandal-rocks-the-comics-twitterverse.htm

found this..... suggest an interesting leakage and memeing in culture that started in HIP HOP music-sampling.... found its way DEEP into SL and user gen online biz models...and now has rebound back into "printed-publishing culture" of the visual arts....

yes. plaigerism isnt new-- and web bought term papers are the new cliff notes.... but again, virtual, anonymous, online banter in blogs, kills responsabiltiy and offers the cartoon kiddies much "free to take" memes... that well, cant be really good.:)

[Darien Caldwell]

It mainly failed because there are already a ton of sites already doing exactly the same thing. They can't expect to go up against Youtube, and Yahoo Video, and win, if they don't have anything unique to contribute. Just one of hundreds of businesses that fail in the valley every year. I suppose that anyone even noticed it's passing is an achievement though.

[Noel Ramos]

Thanks Ms Fitzpatrick, or should I call you "Prokovy Neva" (your silly "avatar" name that serves as an excellent illustration of your mental state and total lack of credibility):

http://www.vintfalken.com/benjamin-duranske-vs-catherine-fitzpatrick/
"… Her modes of attack include deliberately misquoting people she wants to discredit, personally belittling anyone who disagrees with her, making up horrible lies about interlocutors, and ultimately, taking what appears to be an immense amount of joy in being one of the most wantonly disagreeable people in the virtual world."

I think my messages which you quoted easily demonstrate that I was simply attempting to politely assist you, and your quoted responses prove how vulgar and hateful you truly are, so no need to defend myself against your ridiculous insults. I have met internet zanies such as you before, and I know it's lonely in your little world of spite and pixels. You have crafted your own prison and are already serving a life sentence. Thank you for the publicity, I do hope your readers, (if you have any) will visit IndieGate.com and I am confident they can easily fill out the simple forms if they wish to purchase.
- Noel Ramos

[Jumpman LAne]

we aim to grieve!

[AnnOtooleInSL]

Youtube needs to hire them some of those SL hacker types so they will have someone to laugh at their ideas about how to stop downloaders. Apparently they all thought vimeo would stop people from downloading the vids so they could watch them without pauses from youtubes shitty under capacity system.

Fail.

All content delivery models will fail. Including Second Life.

There has to be a better way than spam. It doesn't matter how many ads you stick on a page nobody is buying any of it because the money is all gone. Duh.

[Prokofy Neva]

Hey, big guy, long time no see. I fail to see where there are any "horrible lies" in my correspondence with you. You ask for information that you shouldn't ask for. You blame the person who protests against this idiotic overreach on your part, when in fact you should change your website and what you do. You claim you are "like other sites on the Internet" when you aren't at all, as other sites don't ask for a Tax ID. It's hardly "belittling" you to point up you arrogance and your belligerence in dealing with customers -- it's there for anyone to see, and is an accurate report.

Benjamin Duranske is in fact just the same thin-skinned arrogant geek as yourself, unable to take the same kind of accurate criticism.

There's nothing "polite" in your correspondence, there's only snottyness, the condescention that Intermixx has brought to many other transactions in fact.

I'm not an Internet zany, I'm a customer who criticized your assholery accurately. If this is what you call "publicity," you have another thing coming. In fact, when I make protests like this about the arrogant geeks littering the Internet I usually find that I very soon have company.

[Noel Ramos]

"I usually find that I very soon have company."

As do all the other inmates Catherine.

----

[Melissa Yeuxdoux]

Save your figurative breath, Mr. Ramos. Prokofy is the Francis E. Dec of virtual worlds.

[Darien Caldwell]

hmm, Actaully Prok would be very against any "Worldwide Mad Deadly Communist Gangster Computer God", being anti-communist and digusted with the concept of the Singularity and merging the human consciousness with machines.

And I'm sure Prok has healthy views on 'Mad Deadly Gangsters'.

So all you would be left with is "Worldwide God" and yes, I do think from her writings, she supports that.

[Brinda Allen]

@Noel Ramos

"I am not sure why you are unable to understand me.
I will explain one last time:"
...etc...

Let me see... You responded in language that would appear to be
condescending text and you expected what?

You attempted to belittle another for the identification used in an appropriate manner in a venue that uses such ID... and you expected what?

I'm amazed that your business model is successful...
Although I once worked for someone that your conversation reminds me of....
His take on business?
"There's another one to screw every minute of every day, and with 10 million people in the LA basin, I'll never run out of em."

Hmm...shades of P T Barnum...

Kudoes Prok!

[Noel Ramos]

Yes Brinda it is true that after Catherine insulted me needlessly I did indeed react with the language you quoted. If you feel it is "condescending," so be it. I didn't resort to insults and vulgarity like Catherine seems to do instantly. I suppose what's good for the goose is not good for the gander though, eh?

As far as what I expected? Well it was pretty clear to me what was going to happen. She made it quite obvious, and as I said, I've encountered internet zanies like her before. No surprises.

I am curious as to how you would describe our "business model" and why you are amazed that we are successful.

I'd also like to know what exactly you are giving her "kudoes" [sic] for? For being vulgar and insulting? For unnecessary rudeness?

Please elaborate.

Thanks.

[Prokofy Neva]

No, Noel's insult came first from his page, that solicits information that simply should not be solicited on simple orders of CDS from anybody, and if a bulk order/standing order is required, can be sought later with other b2b forms -- that's where the first insult comes.

His next insult comes from his refusal to grasp this, and his conviction that he isn't in the wrong, with an intrusive and stupid page like that, but the customer is in the wrong.

His next insult after THAT is the smug and smarmy tone he takes in his firt communication assuring me three times that he follows "an industry standard". But this is patent bullshit. No forms of reputable, large businesses, and even small craftsmen's websites, ask for TAX ID numbers. He is based in the U.S., not in Europe; he knows this full well. So it's bullshit, and triply bullshit, and insulting.

His stubbornness, geeky arrogance is full on display in his web page and his firt communication, and THAT is the insult, and THAT is what requires equal and opposite force, and it gets it from me, as is well known.

Saying in all caps that something requested on a form, even without an asterisk is NOT REQUIRED isn't just an insult; it's fucking stupid retarded arrogance. If it is not required, DON'T PUT IT ON THE GODDAMN FORM, MORON. It can be solicited later, or in a separate link, Jesus Christ, that ought to be clear. Think of all the people made uncomfortable by putting this in, or turning away because *the mere fact that it is requested inappropriately, if not mandatorily, is a red flag that this is not a business you need to deal with.* Duh!

It's not being "an Internet zany" to tell a fucking arrogant moronic geek that his form is intrusive and unnecessary, and he need to quit it. Unless we stand up to these bullies soliciting and grabbing and even getting such information all over the Internet, we do not keep our freedoms. Nobody needs a Tax ID number to sell a product on the Internet, even to a business, and frankly, even for bulk orders. The only remote requirement for such information I could think of is if the organization making the purchase is claiming tax exemption, but then they'd have to supply not just the ID, but a special form for that purpose.

The busines model is the same for other arrogant geeks -- bulldoze over customers, treat them like shit, grab as much as you can, etc.

BTW, is this the same company that was once related to Myspace?

[Noel Ramos]

No Catherine, that was Intermix, the original owner of MySpace.

My main problems with you are that you're obnoxious, rude, petty, insulting and vulgar when you have absolutely NO reason or right to be. After reading VOLUMES of your lengthy rants and the subsequent responses of so many obviously more reasonable people, I've concluded that you're another internet zany with too much time on your hands, no REAL life, and a sick desire to cause pain and aggravation for others.

You and the others like you are a cancer on the web, mucking it up for those of us who just want to do business and enjoy the awesome communication it provides.

NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE else ever complained about our simple forms in all the years I've been doing business on the web. We ask for info we might need, we require some of it, and we make the rest optional. It's pretty basic stuff, no effort to "trawl" or "scrape" as your paranoid ravings suggest, and CERTAINLY not worth all the angst you've created.

Everyone but you is fully capable of supplying only what they choose to supply.

Since YOU chose to visit the site, it's hardly "intrusive," and since you don't like IndieGate.com, I strongly suggest you never visit again. Simple choice, win/win or no deal.

In my book you are definitely a NO DEAL.

Thanks for the interesting time Catherine. Since you apparently enjoy impersonating a male online, perhaps you should change your avatar's name to Don Quixote. I wish you luck in your continued efforts to tilt at virtual windmills

- Noel

[Prokofy Neva]

People like you only understand force. And you get it from me. You are still not hearing the basic premise here, that you need not even ask for such a thing, it is off-putting to ask for it, it has cost you customers, and you are being a total asshole about this.

NOBODY ELSE ASKS FOR SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS ASSHOLE.

What does it take with people like you? Only a club over the head, rhetorically, at least, and even that doesn't work. Naming, shaming, exposing, attempt to get peer pressure to work doesn't enable common sense and decency to enter the brain of someone this arrogant, this conservative, this set in their ways, this over-confident.

The idea that *I'm* to blame for an intrustive question because I chose to visit a site (!) or that I'm "paranoid" because I point out that you have no business trawling for tax IDs is just preposterous. But keep talking, you are hanging yourself, making yourself more and more discredited.

I'm not the crazy one here, as all I wanted to do was buy a CD. the crazy loon is the one trying to grab a Tax ID number when it's utterly unnecessary. Um, do I give a tax id number when I go in a record store with a credit card? Of course not.

Once can only go on exposing this sort of behaviour, and the mentality that goes into it, and hope for the best.

[Rodney Van Wort]

This Cracks me up - Noel hasnt changed at all, so gifted at irking people. Honestly i think his character would make a good one to hate in a sitcom.

[Noel Ramos]

"Rodney Van Wort." :) An appropriate troll pseudonym for a psycho-stalker like you. It's no surprise you'd find this thread and be unable to resist posting to it. I'm VERY PROUD to be "irking" nutjobs like you, and I'll definitely never change in my efforts to expose you and your kind as the hateful, spiteful, deceitful sociopaths that you are.

These people who are well respected industry icons do not share your negative opinion of me:
http://www.indiemusicon.com/noel_ramos_recommendations.html

Bring on the sitcom, I'd particularly enjoy making a bigger joke out of you than you're already doing for yourself.

- Noel Ramos

[Darien Caldwell]

lol, I don't know who his noel guy is, but anyone who goes around collecting quotes about themselves, is umm, pretty damn vain. :)

[Noel Ramos]

I didn't have to collect them Darien, they were offered to me:
http://www.linkedin.com/in/intermixx