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« California Business Model #Fail | Main | The Coming Storm in the Cloud »

February 28, 2010

Comments

Brinda Allen

Prok, so often I wonder just what the hecks going on with all this.

As a much larger rental business here in SL I know you see the penny pinching on a much greater scale than I do.
You tell them it's 5K L$/ month for a 2048 on a private island...beautiful landscaping...as close to zero lag as you will get...and they scream. Come on! For gods sake, it's $.65 cents a day!

There's a person I know very well that has donated 5000L$ at a time to a large place that sells tons of clothes for zero L$. The donations are done because they've sent a a LOT of nooblets there for free clothes over the years. And I'm sure it feels good to help cover the tier.

I'm just unable to get my head around those that want to grub as many L$ as they can when the L$ they're grubbing is off of anothers creativity.

I'm way too old to expect or desire a utopian society...here or real life. I expect to carry my share and to maybe donate a little to the public good.

As some know, I've cost real life society more in resources than I could ever repay. I'm damn sure not going to do it here.

So my answer to, "What do you think?"
Predation is predation no matter how it's dressed up and I feel it's not the right thing to do.

Ethics has been described as the judgements you make when no ones around and no ones gonna know.

Kimberly Rufer-Bach

What do I think? Troy has created very effective tours in the past, including an elaborate scripted experience with professional voiceovers -- probably the best tour I have seen in SL. That particular tour was magnificent, and a beautiful example of how the scripted functionality and interactivity available in Second Life can be used to deepen someone's knowledge of something in an effective, enjoyable way that's far beyond a self-guided tour with notecards. If Troy were to come to me to ask about developing a tour of some build of mine, I would certainly stop and listen to what he has to say. I think his work would improve the experience for visitors and increase visits.

Prokofy Neva

Kimberly, you're not hearing it. Troy didn't come and say "I have an idea for a project that I'd like to see if you would be interested in collaboring on" and "I will cut you in on it" right from the get go. Instead, he basically said "I'd like to exploit something you have out in public knowing that you will not likely be able to reject it given your values for open public spaces". It's annoying and grasping.

Only after I kept objecting did he start saying, well, I suppose I could give you some of my fee.

His claim that people will tip him AND the tip jars is untested and iffy.

But as I said: I'm not interested in stopping visitors to my open public land sustained by the public. And that's why I'm soliciting commentary. Troy will go and do whatever, and everyone will think Troy is fabulous, the Lindens love science and tours and stuff. I will get...exactly the same tips that I always get most likely lol.

Brinda, I find that the less people pay, the more they complain. Those in the cheapest seats, paying a mere $1.50 or $2.00 US *per month* in my rentals which huge prim allowances, free houses, amenities like public commons and help and sandboxes and parks and all, are the least grateful. They whine the most. These impoverished newbies are the ones to scream the loudest about privacy -- they want the privacy of a maximum security homestead at literally one/one hundredth of the cost. So I tell them to click refund.

Amanda Dallin

The concept of a tour of a public space isn't bad. The problem here is that it's not really a public space. It's your (Prokofy Neva's) space that you allows the public to freely visit. If the Lindens provided you at least part of the tier then it'd be more truly public. He should have approached you as a business deal which would benefit you from the start.

AngelaTalamasca

If he had come to me when I was doing my crime scene schtick, I would have welcomed him with open arms. Even though I created tour pods, tps, and had my crime scene bots running around the place, having someone providing tours would have been nice. Esp considering the backstory of the builds.

Even so, I see what you're saying. As you are already getting traffic from being in featured places. I had to pound the pavement, so to speak. And my visitors certainly did not even remotely help to support that build.

So, clearly he is looking to capitalize on the build that you are already paying for. And I agree, if they're tipping him, you are likely to see fewer lindens in your tip jars.

With that in mind, am not sure what I would do. It is one of those situations where you end up jockeying for a position. Or, simply say, no. Though, imo, the latter would be less favorable. Maybe see what percentage of tips he's offering?

Anyway, just some off the top of my head thoughts from someone who has absolutely no business sense!

Kimberly Rufer-Bach

If you don't like someone's idea about offering tours of your build, say no. If you're concerned someone might do something on your parcel of which you don't approve, ban them. Or go ahead and let them give tours while you complain about it. I suppose if you're bored you could dig a deep hole right at the entrance and cover it with leaves so when Troy falls in you can jump out and yell "Gotcha!" Be sure to take screenshots.

Troy McLuhan

I should have explained my intent more clearly and I'm sorry about that. For one, I didn't make it clear that the tours would be automatic (like the one at the spaceflight museum that Kimberly refers to in earlier comments). I'd do the detailed scripting of the tour and the maintenance to keep it working every time LL changes how SL works. The tour would end at a tip jar and we could negotiate a fair way to split tips into that tip jar. I don't expect it to rake in a fortune, but nor do I expect it to get zero tips.

I wrote some more background about this tour idea on my blog.

I'd like to add that while I did contribute many things to the spaceflight museum, it's hardly "my sim." It's been a group effort.

AngelaTalamasca

@Troy. Lol. Well, then, I see no reason for Prok to agree.

AngelaTalamasca

ETA ~ @Prok who wrote in part:

"I see Troy's move here as predatory."

I concur!!!

Troy McLuhan

I don't see how my offer is predatory. I'm offering to create a new tour that doesn't currently exist. That tour would bring in extra tips that would be divided between us at a rate that we'd negotiate in good faith. We'd both contribute something and we'd both get something in return. That's what's known as a symbiotic relationship, not a predatory relationship.

If my offer *is* predatory (because it uses something already existing), then by the same logic, so is the St. Paul's Cathedral build in SL: it also uses the design of the real St. Paul's in London, England, which was based heavily on St. Peter's Basilica in Rome, which is a Greek Cross with a big dome inspired by the Pantheon, which is based on... (and I think you get the point).

Prokofy Neva

Troy, you have some philosophy you believe in, I don't know whether it is Randianism, or Friedmanism, or libertarianism, or something of the sort that reifies self-interest as magically transformed into public interest. There's a heavy selfish muscularity to this type of philosophy that is fairly heedless to others' interests or the public interest.

There is a received wisdom here that "the tour would bring in tips" when that isn't known. And at no time did you say it was an automatic scripted device, not yourself doing this live. The idea that *you* decide something is symbiotic, based on your own wishful or self-interested reading of a situation, and then impose it on me and I'm supposed to "just accept" that it is symbiotic is frankly more of a hustle than just a plain predatory attitude, because it seeks to disguise itself. I don't like it.

The idea that the St. Paul's replica itself is "predatory" is silly and tendentious and merely meant to distract from your own troublesome aggressiveness. The builder who made this church is a religious believer who spent a great deal of time on this, out of love. I supported him in this effort, out of a desire to have a church in the religious-sounding sim of Grace. I paid him a modest amount, but neither he nor I have ever gotten anything out of it but time spent and tier costs. The rent on this plaza, which is in PG and next to a church so has to be picky about customers, isn't sufficient to cover the tier; hustling for tips, content sales, and a few other skybox rentals in the area barely covers it. So to describe the usual strenuous struggle in SL merely to have a beautiful and inspirational build for people as "predatory" lets me know the unsavoury side of your character. That you can call it so is just trolling and fisking of the worst order. I suspect the real St. Paul's in London, and all its precursors going back to the Pantheon, all spent more on tier than they got back on return of investment, so to speak.

Micha Sass

Ah well..Like the old capitalist motto suggests..'Nothing ventured, nothing gained'. Good luck with finding another venue for your tours Troy.

Hiro Pendragon

The question in my mind, "Is this Fair Use of an online medium?" As in, could I give tours of websites and accept money? Whether it's for business use ("Here are great examples of good CSS") or pleasure ("Let me show you the best online browser games.") does not seem to affect my answer.

The answer to me is a simple yes. This is the essence of commentary and journalism - taking what others have done and providing one's own personal perspective.

As Troy points out, there's also the issue of whether the recreation in Second Life of a real landmark is Fair Use. I tend to think it is, for the same reason that giving tours are. There's no "philosophy" behind it other than "having a consistent idea of what Fair Use means".

The fact that you label the actions as "predatory" have nothing to do with legality of the issue, either. There are plenty of cases where people exercise Fair Use and are predatory (isn't that how a lot of news outlets are?), but this has nothing to do with whether or not Troy should be allowed to do tours.

Now if the tours themselves are disruptive, that is an entirely different story, but that does not seem to be an issue addressed.

Darien Caldwell

Reminds me of the 'tours of the stars' homes' in Hollywood. I'm sure the stars themselves don't see a dime from that. But it's perfectly legal, though I would call it 'opportunistic'.

Troy McLuhan

Summing up: I asked before doing anything, I screwed up by not being clear enough, and I got rebuffed. I'm moving on and inquiring elsewhere.

Prokofy Neva

Yes, Darien, that's just it. Perfectly legal. Not something you discourage if you run an open land preserve. But "opportunistic". You've summed it up well.

Once again, Troy, it's not just that you "screwed up" or "asked before doing something" (this is fake martyrdom) it's that you have a predatory point of view that is very deeply ingrained. You so believe in the notion of "self interested benefit for the public" that you don't *really* ask the public, or the individual involved, and don't *really* want to hear about *anything* curbing your "self-interest" as you identify it, and "public interest" as you identify it. You seek to impugn the person who questions your fabulous self-interest and self-identified claims, i.e. that this will make more tips, that there will be more tips even if people pay a tour guide, etc.

It's that arrogant hubris and certitidue that you know best and can impose economic models on others that makes you predatory.

Capitalism tends toward the predatory, and even so, I support capitalism. I do support democratic and liberal regulation of capitalism, which isn't socialism, but is about making sure that customers live another day to go on buying the capitalist's products, so to speak.

It's not up to me to decide whether you move on or stay, because again, it's a free and open public space, and that means that I have to endure even those commercializing it. That is, I'm not going to endure it to the point of allowing people to rez sex furniture and weapons vendors in an empty store there where the previous tenant accidently left off the autoreturn -- that sort of thing I return instantly.

But I can't stop picture books, tours, etc. It's like I can't stop various agents that appear who are scouting rentals for clients and then get a fee for doing that even if the tenant then rents from me and pays me. It's a free market. These sorts of meta-services are to be encouraged up to a point (most people realize they don't need such "helpful agents" after they see all the self-service conveniences I have in the rentals).

So while you are posturing with pious martydrom that you have to "move on" because someone has "not understood your greatness" I could suggest that indeed, you could revise your worldview to be less predatory, and indeed, you could make such offers in the future by not only "putting it differently" but revising the underpinning morality of how you see it -- with a script that might go like this from someone approaching someone like me:

1. You've done a great job in supporting an interesting build, it's even in Destination now.

2. I think I might have a way to get even more visitors to the site, visitors who will leave tips and buy the content.

3. It's an automatic scripted touring system that takes people to various interesting sites. Since I would absorb the cost of advertising and development of this system to give newbies interesting things to do, I'd expect to get some tips/fees for this service, but I would also build into the script a message that would request to tip the site owner -- I realize tier has to be made.

4. I'm working on it now and I will show you the message that would accompany the tour, and hopefully it will produce more visitors and tips for you as well as me, but I'm happy to adjust this if it doesn't seem to be working.

etc.

cube inada

who can say all that in 140 characters?!..lol;)

and so it goes.

Hiro Pendragon

Now that we have dismissed the notion that what Troy was doing was illegal / shouldn't be allowed...

Was it predatory / opportunistic when Hamlet Linden used to give balloon tours of Second Life through everyone's mainland builds? He certainly got paid for that since it was part of his job of "embedded journalist".

What about the constant photos you show on second thoughts of all sorts of builds? Surely the ones of people you ask permission before posting, but do you get permission for every location? Since Second Thoughts is your visibility, and it leads you to speaking gigs, that's personal gain from showing off other peoples' work.

What about any sort of critic or reviewer? Is it opportunistic when Roger Ebert reviews a movie and sells the movie review?

Are the bus tours through New York City opportunistic because every citizen of Manhattan isn't asked permission?

The point is - this is the nature of the medium, like living in New York City, like making a movie, etc. You should expect that people are going to show off other people's work and make profit / notoriety. It's not reproduction or content theft. It's not exploitation since the items are made public space online. What's the problem? Seriously? WHERE IS THE HARM DONE? Has Troy ever said anything negative about you, your work, or other people on his tour? Did the tour not bring more people interested in your work? And seriously... you're complaining about "tips"? What's he making? A couple hundred L$ a tour? What has Troy done to you that warrants your borderline libelous blog attacks?

When there was behind-the-scenes drama I saw with the Spaceflight Museum, I witnessed Troy act in an ethical manner. Your character assassination on your blog is both unfounded and unwarranted, Prok.

Prokofy Neva

Um, nobody said what he did is "illegal" or "not allowed", Hiro, stop being an ass. I'm always reminded why you deserve a permanent place on my enemies' list.

All that's been said is that he is predatory, his case has not been made well, and I personally am only to happy to see him move along. I don't need his Internet-like money-scraping automated tourbot on my land, let him take it somewhere else. I've also made it clear that he isn't banned from my land and I don't stop things like this even while publicly condemning them, as morally wrong.

Yes, it was predatory when Hamlet did that, as he got paid, he only featured his friends, and he's an ass, all around, like you are.

What has any discussion about "permissions" have to do with anything? This isn't a discussion about permissions regarding copyright, not at all. It's about monetarizing other people's land with bots, that's all. As I made clear in this post and past posts -- and if you weren't such a self-important little stuffed shirt you'd see that -- I don't claim "authorship" or "copyright" or anything on these buildings, which people have already unscrupulously made money on by making photography books -- and I can't do anything about it. And frankly, if I realized my project of a coffee table book of sites in SL, I'd be doing the same thing -- buildings in the public are able to be photographed and monetarized. Just because it's allowed and not illegal doesn't make it necessarily moral.

Reviews? Again, what an ignorant little trolling *ass*. Reviews make *fair use* of a work of art, everyone knows that, and it's irrelevant to THIS discussion.

Bus tours in Manhattan? Again, I ALREADY NOTED IN MY BLOG POST DUMBASS that people make photography books of New York city buildings DUH. Same concept as bus tours -- or perhaps you're unable to *reason by analogy* -- I often find that piece of critical thinking ability utterly missing in geeks.

It's not the "nature of the medium" to make a bot to suck up tips from other people's land -- virtual worlds in fact offer even great opportunities for predatory money-making schemes precisely because of the ease of travel, etc.

No, it's the nature of Troy's personality to grasp like this.

What is the harm done? Visitors to the land tip not me, to support the land preserve's tier, but tip Troy. His claims that they'll tip both aren't sustainable.

His claims that more people will come isn't sustainable either, because people who might come on their own and open up the RL web page tours of the church are going to go over to his tour. Who knows? Perhaps there be more people who tip in the end, but it's not certain, and he hasn't made the case. The case could have been made 180 degrees differently, as I spelled out.

Borderline libel? This is what makes you such a raging little fucktard, Hiro and that's why, again, you'll remain firmly ensconced on my enemy list FOREVER. You accused me of violating copyright one -- completely falsely. You've abuse reported me for legitimate free speech on the forums, like a sordid little Linden asskisser. And made these kinds of posts over and over again over the years, with ignorance in greater proportion than indignation.

It doesn't matter if Troy's space museum is "ethical". Let him be ethical over there. I do not support his caper here. And my critique is founded and indeed warranted.

cube inada

read nothing libelous....
and troy needs a lesson in salesmanship 101.

and it was an issue of fair trade desired, but not communicated properly from what I read here.

Property rights, and the owners ability to do what they please with it- beyond the harm of others -law. etc.,

"but what can YOU do for ME?" something heard way to much in the generation of MBAs of which JFK is the only known for screwing Marilyn Monroe and being killed in another century.

but "ironically" prok, the medium is of this madness.

tHUNK! without think, cube3

Hiro

I find it ironic that you start a post with "so I open it up for public scrutiny", end it with "what do you think?" and you reject all that don't agree with you.

But I digress.

I'm sorry, you're correct that no one explicitly listed it as "should be disallowed" or "illegal". It was merely name-calling, badmouthing, labeling Troy as an "unethical" "predatory" person.

But questioning whether something was legal / allowed is exactly how I read "I can't stop someone from monetarizing a public space provided as a non-profit public project...can I?"

"Yes, it was predatory when Hamlet did that"

RE: You don't claim copyright on these builds. That has nothing to do with what I said. Whether or not a person claims copyright has nothing to do with whether a reproduction is Fair Use.

I find it further ironic that Fair Use for reviews is okay, but a tour is somehow something different from a review. It's not published, but it serves the same purpose - to educate and analyze another person's work.

"Bus tours in Manhattan? Again, I ALREADY NOTED IN MY BLOG POST DUMBASS that people make photography books of New York city buildings DUH."

Mmm. I'm glad that you recognize that I was pointing out that you'd already mentioned it. Bus tours are accepted and encouraged by NYC tourism boards, the city, etc. They are considered part of bringing in tourism money, not magically stealing from NYC's tip-jar.

"Visitors to the land tip not me, to support the land preserve's tier, but tip Troy. His claims that they'll tip both aren't sustainable."

Can you dig up records of your tips? Do you see your tips going down in the period when Troy was giving tours?

But ultimately, you had a perfectly good option available - tell Troy you'd like him to plug your tip jar during his tours.

" You accused me of violating copyright one -- completely falsely. "

1. The Second Life Herald printed an article written by you with images taken by another person.
2. I pointed this out.
3. You screamed bloody murder on Twitter for hours about this.
4. You then mentioned that you had told the Herald who to credit under the photographs.
5. YOU FAIL TO UNDERSTAND THAT NO ONE HAD ANY WAY OF KNOWING THIS UNTIL YOU POINTED IT OUT.
6. I withdrew my statements, then having knowledge that no one had before.
7. You continue to blame me for not being pyschic.

It's still up in Twitter records.

"You've abuse reported me for legitimate free speech on the forums"

Freedom of speech does not apply to privately owned forums, such as one owned and operated by Linden Lab. Period. Rules were stated, including, "You are not to verbally harass other people on the forum". You violated those rules over and over and over. What did you expect? Do you think you live in a world where you can harass people ad nauseum, and because you presume moral high ground and correctness of opinion, that no one will ever object?

"And made these kinds of posts over and over again over the years, with ignorance in greater proportion than indignation."

I find it ironic that you would defend your free speech to say negative things about people, but when others have criticism of you, suddenly you reduce their speech to "ignorance".

But that's you, Prok. Everything you say is based on "How do I win this argument *now*?" Your methods are consistent only with Machiavelli - do whatever is necessary. Which, as I said to you years ago, is a bloody shame, because there are a good number of subjects that you do choose sides that are ideologically good.

But assume I'm wrong about everything - that still leaves you as the name-caller. While it makes fun reading for a lot of people, what name-calling doesn't do is achieve any sort of ethical or moral high-ground, which is the underlying basis for so many of your claims. I realize you clearly don't care if people don't hate you - the more martyr-for-the-cause it makes you, but I simply don't get how you think being 99% antagonistic wins over people much better than legitimately trying to see other peoples' viewpoints and compromising.

Micha Sass

Hiro - Just accept that on this blog, Prokofy is always 100% right.

Unfortunately for Prokofy, the same cannot be said for the wider world stage, where Prokofy is often seen to be very wrong.

Personally i think the techno-communist meme he tries to spread, is a misnomer. I believe we are witnessing the beginnings of what may one day be called techno-capitalism. Conservatives are going to have a hard time adjusting to the change, and will knee-jerk spew communist accusations.

Keep a gun under your pillow, for there are reds under the bed. Mhmm, you gotta love the volatile danger that it is, paranoid, intolerant, angry, self-confident and sexy.

Prokofy Neva

You have to wonder what gets into the head of someone like Hiro, when they don't realize how further and further they discredit themselves.

I'm happy to put something up for public scrutiny and then disagree with every point every one says. This is collectivist hive mind at work, thinking that the purpose of asking someone's opinion is to then follow it. Of course not. The purpose of soliciting opinion is to think out loud, to gather evidence that your sense that someone is doing something wrong has some backing. You might not get any validation of that sense, but you can examine it.

In fact, I did get a very firm validation of this sense, and the sense of morals broke down in classes as it always does. Older women thought he was predatory; young men thought I had something wrong with me for passing up this deal. And that's how it always is. Turgenev should write a new book called "Mothers and Sons".

The idea that just because I've asked for a critique means now I am hell-bound to follow hive mind is risible. I'm not. Fuck it.

Troy *is* predatory. That's my judgement call. On this he was. cube3 could call it delicately "lack of salesmanship 101" but it wasn't that, it was merely an overweening sense that he was right, he knew best, and I should roll over. And flying right into my land in person to tell me this, like a door-to-door salesman hustling vacuum cleaners.

I made it clear that I remain with my position: I can't stop someone from monetarizing a public space with a non-profit project, any more than I could stop someone from making a tour bus of museums in New York, or a photography album in New York. What I can do is stop them from selling their unrelated stuff right out of the foyer of my building, however.

Hiro is so far ignorant of copyright and fair use and such that one doesn't know where to start. Again, that's a different discussion, and copyright was NOT what this discussion was about WHATSOEVER. The rights of the creator and the sponsor to creative work are irrelevant. The issue here had to do with non-profit versus commercial, different discussion. But if I have to repeat it, chances are the obdurate Hiro Pendragon will not get it again.

If someone can't understand the difference between fair use in a review and a bus tour, I can't help them. And if someone can't understand the difference between a real-life city, where museums can collect a portion of tax dollars, foundation money *and* millions of admissions fees *and* content sales, and an SL build that can rely ONLY on a few tips, I can't help them either. The idea that you can invoke the self-interest of a museum in having bus tours, and the public spiritedness of city fathers allowing bus tours even on their tax-supported museums lets us know that the young aren't understanding the difference between virtuality and reality anymore. Many checks and balances obtain in real life that don't in Second Life because it's a small company town.

A bus tour is a payment for a service, not a "fair use" for a review in a commercial newspaper. The bus tour isn't for "discussion and education" in the direct sense that a book review with an actual portion of the work contained within the medium is. A bus tour is not a medium. It's a vehicle and a service. The sight of the museum that the person has with their eyes, or the amateur snapshot with their camera aren't an equivalent of "fair use" but are personal use, like reading with your eyeballs or putting up a quotation from a book you like on a sticky by your computer.

A museum needs to have visitors and there is a balance and a symbiosis in bus tours here. But imagine if real life were like SL, and instead of bus tours, you had an automatic, scripted device that could teleport thousands of people from around the world instantly into the halls of the museum, so they would rez up out of the floor, not paying admission and like ghosts, wandering around, only paying tips if they felt like that. The museum, the city, the police, might all decide that this new teleportation device was something that overwhelmed their system, and was now putting money in the coffers of the fabulous new teleportation company, and not in the museum anymore. The analogies break down because there are no buses and turnstiles in SL. But in RL, if someone had the capacity to run a teleportation service they got paid for delivering thousands of people into every museum, you might hear some squawking.

Troy didn't give any tours. And his claim that tips would go up to him and not me is not sustainable. Even being in Destination, and even getting a lot of tips, it actually isn't enough to sustain the tier, unless I also run store rentals there too and sell content.

As noted in my original story, Troy offered to plug having people give me tips. But I didn't like the entire pushy and predatory way he was doing this. The chief off-putting factor in all this was his conviction that *his plan for my land* was something that I was supposed to just roll over and be excited about.

It would never occur to me to go to someone, say, Desmond, and say "I have a plan for your land. I'm going to bring newbies to your lovely orientation, then I'll recommend that they rent with me. Some of them might rent with you, so you'll get something out of it." It just wouldn't occur to me to pretend that my plan for someone else's land where I get paid is somehow something of value to them. I'd only do it if I felt it was beneficial to both and mention a structured, fair deal from the get-go.

Again, Troy himself offered to plug my tip jars, but I was skeptical, that people who had just got done tipping Troy would feel they should give again. I find it rare that people will give twice, and I've had some settings in the land preserve where people *are* asked to give twice to two different groups -- and they don't.

As for the Herald story, indeed, Hiro was completely off base, and behaving like a raging asshole, and that's what he is called on.

The system of Typepad that the Herald put in did not allow for the junior authors to upload photos. So they had to be sent separately. And they were sent and were labelled and the credit given. When Pixeleen uploaded them, he forgot to put in the credit or somehow didn't think it was important.

BTW, if this was a picture of a public building, that someone had put up on a public website somewhere without some specific license request, one could argue that their case was weak, but could still respond to *their request* to put in a credit line.

The person who had taken the picture DID NOT COMPLAIN -- indeed, not very much time went by.

Hiro stepped up like a fussy little busy-body and complained *merely to troll and be an asshole*. It's not REAAAALLLY about copyright and concern for that person, it's ONLY about being an asshole to me and the Herald. That's all. We all see it for what it is.

I sure as hell scream bloody murder when someone FALSELY accuses me of copyright violation -- and frankly, failure to put a credit line on a photo isn't "copyright violation". It would only become that if someone the parties involved beligerently refused to put in a credit line when asked. They weren't asked by the copyright holder in this case, but eventually the credit went up as intended, and as it was supplied at the beginning. Like most literalist assholes in the tech set, Hiro has no sense of real life and how it works.

The fact that "no one has any way of understanding this until I explain the system" is bullshit. Anyone who reads the Herald knows that whatever else you say about them, they respect copyright -- although they sure as hell are not going to allow someone to falsely invoke it, like the JLU did with the DMCA. They have a long history of always crediting the pictures when they can. I also have a long five-year history of running this blog and always crediting pictures. So for somone to impugn this given my record lets us know they are just being an asshole, merely to goad and poke and try to appear "holier than thou". It's stupid.

It's not about being psychic, it's about knowing that the Herald and I approach this issue in good faith, that the lapse of a credit isn't some demonstration of bad faith, and that it will be rectified. Making an issue out of it as a weeny little gotcha-wielding nerd is Hiro's crime here, and that's why he's an enemy, not for being a psychic. But if Hiro could understand that about himself, he would be less of an asshole than he is.

Not only is my speech legitimate in the forums, and liberal-minded people should wait for the Lindens to police their speech curbs and not assist them in this odious effort, my speech was permissable *even under the Linden TOS*.

The Lindens did not have any police articulated at that time in 2005 that you couldn't criticize another resident or business in a post; indeed, they allowed hundreds of critical posts to hammer on Anshe, and me and others that "the community" -- their early adapter nerds -- didn't like merely for reasons of aversion to landlords, capitalism, people who didn't code or design as they did.

In fact, a Linden told me forthrightly that my criticism of the FIC and their corporations in fact wasn't a violation of the TOS, but in fact was merely a "business decision". It was merely a question of Philip and whoever else made this decision wanting to protect their own from any negative discussion -- their own who had signed NDAs with them.

BTW, like Hiro himself has signs NDAs with the Lab.

The idea that little nerdy goons like Hiro should help corporations apply their bad speech codes is disgusting. That's one of the worst features of the forums -- not just that the Lindens have these untenable corporate rules, but that they get little police informants like Hiro to do their dirty work.

I didn't verbally harass anyone in the forums. I laid out a position and I fought for it. I never used the obscenity and hateful attacks that the FIC did, with impunity. The records are all there to see, if the Lindens ever put them back up.

The fact that I am no longer banned from the Linden forums or blog lets us know that the problem isn't me, because I haven't changed. I write exactly the same thing. Of course, now the mods, who are a third-party company, simply delete things like a criticism of Paparazzi Artful on the technical grounds that this is "a criticism of one resident or company". (There ought to be a law that a bot is exempt from these speech laws, geez.)

In any event, unjust laws should not be upheld. If people weren't such timid little nerds, or such hateful little fanboyz like Hiro doing the Lindens' dirty work for them to gain points somewhere, these sorts of overreaches by companies could be rolled back. The Lindens wouldn't be able to ban hundreds -- thousands -- of people if they participated and stood up to something like Paparazzi Artful.

I suspect that despite all the toadying that Hiro has done over the years to the Lindens, and all the bag work he has done for their odious policies, they don't love him. They don't give him a job.

A particularly hilarious feature of the young Hiro's assholery is that he is constantly trying to "teach" me, someone who is twice his age or more. Constantly trying to instruct, hector, reform, and "manage". Constantly trying to lecture to me, in high-minded tones, that if only I did this or that, or changed this or that, I'd be acceptable to...um..."the community"...or something.

Recently, in his bid to go around and "network" in a job hunt, Hiro wrote and said smarmily to the effect, "I wonder if you'd be willing to talk to me, you've softened and don't make so many ad hominem attacks" etc. etc. Which is ridulous. I haven't changed. The only thing that changed was the direction of Hiro's toadying.

Hiro is universally loathed, by the way. I'm startled sometimes to find people who are are loathsome as Hiro, with the same loathsome views, loathing Hiro. Go figure.

When Zuck and Biz and all the rest start charging for their Facebooks and Twitters, perhaps we might speak of techo-capitalism. It will merely be a form of communism that is state capitalism, however, with mega corporations coming to assume the role of the state.

Hiro

"it's about knowing that the Herald and I approach this issue in good faith..."

The Herald is a tabloid. Peter and Pixeleen have always said so. Why would anyone assume good faith for any tabloid? The whole point is to rile people up. And you still don't get that the person didn't complain *to you* because you yell and scream at anyone who complains. They complained to other people.

"I never used the obscenity and hateful attacks "

Actually, that's not true. That was the final thing, well, you'll debate the latter, but you actually did use profanity.

The other arguments we're just going back and forth on, so I can't add anything more.

"he is constantly trying to "teach" me, someone who is twice his age or more. "

Nice, ageism.

Now that it's been stepped to that level, no point in me continuing.

Prokofy Neva

It doesn't matter if the Herald is a tabloid, or worse, an inciter of actual crime, which is why I ceased association with it.

On the issue of giving people credit on photos, they have an established record and they simply do not heedlessly copy in the way Hiro is implying.

Again, his raising of this utterly false issue on the Herald was merely him playing "gotcha" in the typical geeky troll fashion, and not some genuine issue.

Hiro is seeming to imply -- and I'm fairly sure falsely -- that the author of this photo, fearing my wrath (snort) asked Hiro to take on my alleged failure to credit the photo. If you believe that, you believe in the tooth fairy. I never heard anything of the sort, and it all sounds fake. When I have time, I'm going to go look all this up and ask the person involved, but it all sounds bogus.

Indeed, I most certainly did NOT use obscenity and hateful attacks on the forums of Second Life. Indeed I did NOT. The record shows that. The FIC assholes - and I'm happy to call them that here on my blog, but I did not use this word on the forums -- called me a wanker, an asshat, wrote "fuck you" and then sneakily deleted it before the mods could catch it, and put up mockups of my forums icon showing a rave with its head blown up and bloody. Everyone knows what they did there. It's all on the record, that is, if the Lindens didn't destroy it. I was not charged with obscenity or personal attacks even by Lindens. I got a notice about "trolling," which is vague and the sort of term that only means what the user wishes it to mean (which is why I avoid it, and only wheel it out to explain for the public in shorthand form exactly the kind of fisking and literalism and gotcha that Hiro was engaging in on that Herald story).

The Lindens said it was a "business matter". Well said.

Hiro's interventions here are good examples of why we can't let geeks code "e-democracy" given their culture. Their culture really has to be smashed.

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