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« A Girl's Game | Main | Duke University Mark McCahill »

March 25, 2010

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Micha Sass

I feel I should say, I do not wish to make American/Christian terrorists look worse than Islamic terrorists. The truth is I used a strawman to make an unfair comparison between Islamic terror groups and Domestic American extreme groups in terms of actual potential for violence. Islamic potential for violence is fairly well documented (assuming you don't buy this shite about 9-11 being a Jewish/Zionist/NWO conspiracy). USA has a much firmer grip of law, public opinion and reality (it would seem).

However, I am not certain of the reality of widespread acceptance of terror groups within the Islamic community as a whole.

I think both sides have some thoroughly bad eggs. The thing is the Islamic bad eggs have proven to be a bit more unhinged than the Christian counterparts.

My hope is we can rise above the hate on both sides. Find a middle ground. And live together in some sort of peace. I think the time has come to drop the religion from the title, so an Islamic terror cell is just referred to as 'a terror cell' in the media, and blogosphere. No need to stain a religion that is held dear by millions.

Nina Andrews

I don't think they should ignore it either just because worse things happen.

Mitch Wagner

You're right that the recent attacks on healthcare advocates aren't terrorism. I shouldn't have called them that. Nor should I have compared them with Kristallnacht. I was hoist on Godwin's law.

OTOH, the Fort Hood attack wasn't terrorism either. They were a treasonous attack on a military target by an American traitor.

Ciaran Laval

Muslims do condemn violence, it's just not considered newsworthy when they condemn violence. Preachers of hate sell more newspapers.

ichabod Antfarm

"The truth is I used a strawman" is the sort of truth that puts one on the path towards, if not truth, at least towards something called, deceny. Congrats, Mich

Prokofy Neva

I read an excerpt of your story on Facebook, and didn't see the entire thing, so I didn't realize you also compared the recent spate of...a half dozen incidents across the country including some rocks in windows and some hate phonecalls as "Kristallnacht".

I'm glad you had the courage to admit you were wrong, but it shouldn't have taken me standing up to this blatant bullshit. It really does a disservice to the memory of the victims of Kristallnacht to compare them to a few nutters throwing rocks in the U.S.

I'm all for reasoning by analogy. I'll have to see how you phrase this. I'm all for saying griefers are *like* terrorists because they use the same logic (attack innocent people unrelated to my beef, i.e. Prokofy's tenants, when Prokofy is my target) and the dynamics work the same way (they hide behind loud demands for "rights" like "the right not to be associated with guilt" when in fact they are up to their eyeballs in criminal conspiracy). Even so, I do make it clear that I know the difference in scope and scale and magnitude between 9/11 and my sim getting crashed, hello.

I understand that the point was to say "First it starts with some broken windows, then it escalates". Of course, this is the "broken windows" theory of community policing -- take care of the few broken windows swiftly and punish the perpetrators, you will not see the neighbourhood go to the dogs, that if people see broken windows, they feel like "anything goes" and may not restrain themselves.

I think it's a terrible exaggeration, and it is all part of this hurt, infantile, neuralgic, self-justifying, un-self-critical posturing that the left does, injured but not innocent, always trying to campaign its way out of the Bush era, which is over, because they have a new president now -- and yet they are unable to compromise, make their points reasonably without hate and invective, etc.

Actually, one of the cures for this would be if a real socialist party were formed that was honest about its socialism, especially if it were for democratic socialism, and if it clarified in fact how Obama isn't socialist, and forced Democrats either to chose to be in a socialist party or to shut up and stop a) invoking socialist ideas and pretending they aren't and b) screaming they've been unfairly labelled in a McArthyitism as socialists when they aren't.

I think calling the Fort Hood case "American treason" is naive, and deliberately avoids looking at the issue of the Al Qaeda leader in touch with Hassan and inspiring him. The trial will determine how much he was directed by this international terrorist conspiracy.

Muslims don't condemn violence. It's routine on forums to find them not doing this, and angrily demanding exemption for having to do this. There are a few community leaders here and there, but nearly not enough. Ciaran, you seem to think this is a greater phenomena than it is, so go and find this *in England* where you are.

I'm not willing to congratulate Micha for admitting she is using straw-man arguments and being provocactive, she should start with that sincerity and not post tripe the way she always does -- uninmpressed.

I'm more certain of the reality of widespread acceptance of violence among Islamic groups because I see it all the time.

There is a sense of victimhood, long-held grievances, and a belief that the U.S. is evil and wrong. Saudi Arabia as a country doesn't appear to be a direct enemy of the U.S., and even has extensive business and military dealings with the U.S., and even funds the New Republic's thumb-sucking sessions on what it means to be liberal intellectuals in America and think on Saudi money. Saudi Arabia has massive human rights violations and an oppressive system. Bin ladn comes from a wealthy Saudi family, but he feels powerless and humiliated at all this U.S. presence of business, troops, etc. and it infuriates him and undermines his manhood. He can't make his own government change -- it's repressive. So he turns to terrorism. And lots of people tacitly support him because that unhealed wound, that laceration of male humiliation as Tom Wolfe called it, keeps gnawing at them -- and women too.

I will never forget someone who called herself a human rights activist in New York right after 9/11, refusing to come with us to see a memorial to the victims, and talking appreciatively of Bin Ladn, and whining endlessly about how her rights were now going to be violated by the U.S. war on terrorism and she was going to be checked more at the border. I truly marvelled at such insolent indulgent narrow-mindedness, the inability to see what Al Qaeda does to kill people and destroy villages in Afghanistan. I marvelled that she couldn't muster any solidarity whatsoever for victims of 9/11. I marvelled, that she could be entering the U.S. on a study trip and not be blocked, as so many people are who are critical of *her* country, and yet still whine about a search.

Time and again, I've seen conversations that start out with some pro forma cursory admission that violence is "cowardly" and should be condemned, but then all kinds of qualifiers are put on. Israel should do this, the U.S. should do that. It's never the terrorist groups like Hamas that should end violence. In fact, I routinely sit in UN meetings in which even religious NGOs and diplomats from seemingly democratic countries argue that Hamas is not a terrorist group and shouldn't be labelled as such, etc. It's endless. So I stand by my remarks.

As for the idea that "Islamic bad eggs are more unhinged than Christian bad eggs," I'm sure radical Muslims would find discrimination even coming from you, their big sympathizer, but I'd put it differently: no, it's because it's not about a few bad eggs. It's because about a determined, networked, organized, funded, state-backed terror organization that recruits and deploys people successfully through direct and indirect means.

Once again, I point to the story of "Army of God" where even the nutter's fellow nutter tries to talk him out of violence. Only in America...

Prokofy Neva

"Vesta Darkstone" AKA "Jeeves" you cannot post here. It's not because I "delete remarks I don't like" as anyone can post whatever hateful thing they like as long as they put a VALID name. "Jeeves" is not a valid name, and is blocked after 2 posts with a warning to use an SL name. Then this same IP uses "Vesta Darkstone" which is an SL account from 2007 with hardly any activity, just a freebie and a dance group, and clearly an alt. That's not acceptable. Go post your hate on your own blog if you cannot take responsibility for it.

I don't minimize violence by saying that political violence directed at a specific target and not harming others randomly nearby, and not performed on a mass scale, isn't terrorism. It's merely making moral and rational distinctions. Everyone can see that there is a distinction. That some people need to keep fisking and trolling on this distinction lets us know of their own moral blindness.

If you cannot even see that there is something morally more reprehenible about killing innocent people randomly, versus killing one person you believe responsible for wrong against you, then I can't help you and I'm also not intereste in debating you. There is nothing in what I write that says because I recognize terrorism is greater than political violence, that I'm somehow excusing political violence and giving abortion doctor killers a pass. I'm a big believer in the rule of law and heartily endorse the prosecution of all the mayhem, assaults and murder that the anti-abortion extremists have committed. I'm also not for morally equivocating them with the kind of people coldly blowing up 3,000 people in buildings in another country because...why? They can't bear Israel or U.S. troops on Saudi soil.

Mitch Wagner

>>I think calling the Fort Hood case "American treason" is naive, and deliberately avoids looking at the issue of the Al Qaeda leader in touch with Hassan and inspiring him. The trial will determine how much he was directed by this international terrorist conspiracy.<<

It's not naive to label a thing for what it is. The Fort Hood attacker was an American who attacked military targets. Whether he worked in collusion with al Qaeda is irrelevant to whether the attack was treason, terrorism, or both.

Prokofy Neva

*blinks*.

His working in collusion with the international, networked *terrorist organization* Al Qaeda is the greatest piece of proof that he is a terrorist.

His coming from Muslim roots is almost beside the point, as we have non-Muslim white terrorists in the U.S. now too.

In this case, he is American, and chosing to commit treason against his homeland, but he is indeed a radical religious believer, and his radical Islamic belief is very much part of the story.

I think you're digging yourself deeper here, Mitch, by trying to "not so subtly" flog the idea that he is *American* and therefore can't be accentuated as *Muslim* from Palestinian or whatever roots, and trying to guilt-trip any liberal into becoming "colour blind" to his roots by virtue of our "melting pot ethos".

But...this is a fanatical religious believer, with ties to a terrorist organization, who knowingly and deliberately embraces a terrorist ideology rooted in a extremist religious belief system.

This is not a guy who burned a flag or took a shot an an IRS agent.

Your desire to whitewash out those features of the case that glaringly point to its terrorist nature are very troubling. But typical of the Internet-informed left these days.

Mitch Wagner

Prok, you have grossly misrepresented my position, as usual. Good-bye.

Prokofy Neva

Mitch, you often have trouble accepting accountability for the repercussions of your own words. I've done *nothing* of the kind whatsoever.

This handful of cases of vandalism in the U.S., coupled with a few incendiary yahoo blogs and nasty phone calls, *hardly* constitutes some right-wing death squad movement. I mean, you want to see death squads, look at Mexico, where 18,000 have been killed recently. Look at sectarian violence in Nigeria, where thousands have been slaughtered.

You seem to be unable to deal with people who disagree with you because you think you are "right". You're welcome to go on thinking you're "right" -- I sure do, and won't be rounded up -- but your notion that Hassan is merely an "American traitor" and not "an international terrorist" is woefully gullible, naive, and perhaps even manipulative if you are not sincere (I think waving the American flag on Hassan is to be belligerently manipulative to try to distract from his profoundly radical Muslim roots, which are not some "native American phenomenon," and his ties to Al Qaeda).

You yourself have said comparisons with Kristallnacht, which all the radical left floggers on Twitter are now making, is wrong. Indeed. Teabaggers aren't in power, and haven't expelled 12,000 Obama supporters. An Obama supporter hasn't assassinated an Obama-appointed ambassador abroad. Teabag thugs haven't raided hundreds of stores and broken windows of stores based on perceived affiliation to Obama, killed a hundred people, and driven tens of thousands into death camps.

Instead, the teabag people have thrown...a few rocks into some windows of congressmen.

Honestly, you've been on the Internet too long.

Darien Caldwell

Christian Militia Members Conspire to kill Police officers:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100329/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_fbi_raids

Terrorists, or not? Personally, I think terrorist is an over-used word. But in the end, a terrorist is *anyone* who uses fear as a weapon. Race, creed, color, or religion has nothing to do with it.

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