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April 28, 2010

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Amanda Dallin

Woodbury did accomplish one thing. They got most of SLU to agree with both you and BladyBlue.

I know you were griefed many more than the once I mentioned at SLU it's just that's the one I took the pic of them hiding under the dam that shows the names and the date.

I hope to make more of your meetings but Friday has been a busy night for me.

Micha Sass

I am amazed how you can write a piece about an American company (LL), a primarily American griefer group (WU) but stir-in a flavor of anti-Islam.

In my whole time in SL I have been griefed only twice, once while quietly building in a sandbox i was orbited (resolved by simply siting on a plywood cube), and one other time by a grumpy friend of a friend (also orbited). I think you attract these griefers, sorta like flies to cows poo.

Prokofy Neva

I'm amazed, always, at the capitulation of the European leftist intellectual (well, it's pale shadow in someone like Micha, about whom "intellectual" can't really be used, but let's say "semi-educated class").

It's fine for the radical Muslim to be anti-Western and illiberal at every turn, threatening every aspect of Western civilization. But a Western intellectual criticizes and condemns Sharia law, with its harsh sentences of stoning and cutting off hands, with its rejection of universality and the rule of law over religion, and suddenly this intellectual is guilty of violating the rules of liberalism, by being "anti" or "discriminating".

It's a variation on the ill-gotten notion of "defamation of religion" pushed by the OIC everywhere.

Another anti-civilizational notion here from Micha is the idea that "if I didn't see it, it didn't happen" -- lack of empathy, and even lack of analytical ability, because a cursory glance at the Linden police blotter or the blogs of others or even the Herald would put paid to the idea that "it doesn't happen".

Then, the thuggish "blame the victim" canard, that says that if someone is griefed "they deserve it". That someone "attracts" griefing, and therefore "deserves what he gets".

And of course, the idea that one is "cow poo" if one exposes and condemns griefers on a systematic basis.

The society that is made up of such figures of "Western civilization" as have washed up on the Internet shores these days makes you wonder what you are fighting for if you are fighting for Western civilization. Crude and disgusting indifference, lack of analytical ability and impartiality; thuggish glee in the victim's misery; credulity and even enthusiasm for tribalism and particularism and the suppression of basic rights. This is our "better world".

And always, in exhibiting these awful traits, imaginging that one is "superior" and able to deliver little homilies about "right living".

Micha Sass

I was not saying it is wrong to be critical of Islam, or communism for that matter. I was just curious as to why you link all things you hate to Islam and Communism. Its like a theme on this blog. You find it impossible to criticise something without throwing in an Islam or Communist insult.

Like I said, I have been griefed twice. My memory of these events is poor, as they were not memorable occasions, and maybe I have been griefed more than twice. I was not saying griefing does not happen, I was merely saying it happens much more to you. You write huge long endless blogs about it weekly.

OK I will rephrase, maybe you attract griefers like wasps to honey. You however, are in no way sweet.

Amanda Dallin

I lived for a year in Saudi Arabia under Sharia Law. Not in some compound or military base but in downtown Jeddah. While I was not expected to wear a burka I was expected to wear a long dress or skirt and a scarf or some similiar covering over my head. Short sleeved shirts were considered evil too. If I was in public in jeans and a tshirt I could have been arrested and deported (if I was lucky). I could not go out in public unless I was with a man or a large group. There are religious police in brown robes with clubs to enforce these rules.

My father was too close to the square where they punish people publicly and was rounded up with the crowd to watch someone have their head removed with a sword. Not in a video game but in RL.

If you were in a store when the call to prayer went out and you didn't get out fast enough for the religious police then you would be beaten. I witnessed a shop owner who didn't close the metal gate over the front of his little hole in the wall shop fast enough beaten over the head with a wooden club as he was trying to lower the gate.

From a western perspective Sharia Law is extremely restrictive and anti-liberty. It demands you not only behave in the "proper" manner but think in the "proper" manner. So yes it does have some similarities to communism as it's actually practiced.

AnnOtooleInSL

yea i got an im from some person trying to play a geography card. seems all the copybot apologists are now whining because they have reached the end of their days as of midnight tomorrow and there are a lot of pissed off assholes that can't rip shit off anymore.

btw there is no way to collect personal data on a fucking avatar. it is a fucking toon. it has no identity or rights. the account owner has only rights under the SL TOS. these idiots need to grow the fuck up. you didn't buy anything either. you rented web host time or a license to use copyrighted content.

Let the great reeducation of SL begin. If you don't like the policies that go into effect on Friday then cancel your cartoon accounts and get the fuck out. There is no polite way to say that and you can't even say it on LL server turf. LL keeps saying it in politically correct ways but some people don't comprehend polite/legal talk.

Amanda Dallin

It doesn't matter if the griefers are attracted to Prok for some reason. They are still in the wrong. It doesn't matter what Prok has said on blogs forums or discussion groups. Responding by griefing thus breaking the TOS numerous times was still wrong. Prok was not the only target, just the favorite target.

I could guess they liked the publicity on this blog but it doesn't matter. Prok should not have to shut up and hope they go away. I doubt anything WU did to Prok led to their demise but it should have a long time ago.

Micha Sass

@Amanda Agreed that living in downtown Jeddah does not sound great, but this blog post is about dealing with disruption in SL. If the post was about about ridding the world of evil muslims it would make sense. The issues are seperate, and should be kept seperate. You are just trying to present this bullshit idea that sharia law is a creeping threat, and is taking over. Just like the same bullshit that is being spread about jews by the truthers. Creepy and bullshit.

Sean Williams

That's all well and good to say Amanda but the real world doesn't work that way - doubly so on the internet.

Simple logic tells us that if constantly bringing attention to repeat griefers does not cause said griefers to cease activities, you ignore them.

I seriously laugh each and every single time Prokofy tries to compare Griefers and Terrorists: There. Is. No. Comparison.

You can ban, eject, Abuse Report or ignore a Griefer. You can even teleport away or log out of Second Life.

There is no logging out of Real Life, nor teleporting away. There are no means to ban/eject a Terrorist other than by arrest or termination. Abuse Report - something that occurs AFTER the fact? Yeah, that'll work ....

The ONLY similarity between the two is that BOTH groups feed off of attention - to be specific, both groups feed off of the sense that they have won, caused by their targets reacting in such a paranoid manner as to ban/eject anyone that looks new and shows up at the wrong time (SL) or tighten security to paranoid delusional levels (RL - TSA checkpoints anyone? Moronic new regulations?).

Care to guess what the most important difference is?

A Griefer can be ignored without the cost of a life.

A Terrorist will continue to lash out - said Terrorist being convinced, and rightly so, that he will not be ignored for very long.

Is griefing Prokofy in retribution or for other reasons wrong? It depends on who you ask and if you follow the Golden Rule of Civilized Society: "Do unto others as you'd have done unto you."

To Prokofy - and to you - what she got was undeserved.

To anyone that believes one should behave and treat others as one would like to be treated however?

Well deserved.

Do I think she deserved such treatment?

Not to the extent it occurred - no.

what she DOES deserve is having her vitriol, bile, hatred and utter inability to function in a Civilized Society thrown right back in her face.

That includes pointing out over and over again just how much of the bullshit she types can be pinned right back on her.

A Paragon of Decency, Virtue, Morality etc - she is not.

Micha Sass

@Amanda..apologies, I mean Prokofy is presenting the bullshit Islamification meme, not you.

Gisele

Let's not call Prok's analogy a meme. It's not.

It's a bit over the top, but that's Prok. Don't be distracted. It's the only way to read Prokofy, without derailing yourself.

Look a little deeper. He makes some good points.

Tracy Welles

Sounds like blasphemy against the separated spirit of truth.

Sound wisdom and doctrine is not deciphered of man, but given to man through the spirit of the most high.

What shall ye say as you stand in the temple of Yahweh, with your putrid and undeniable hate against mankind?

Will you laugh? Will you cry? or will you lay down arms to understand that the spirit of Yahweh is indeed just?

We learn through sound doctrine what is and what is not of truth. We learn through years of trial and tribulation as to what does consist of sound doctrine and wisdom.

You are pathetic. And lack truth. You defile the temple of the spirit with your lack of wisdom.

Turn ye and repent, know that Yahweh is, accept the truth and you to shall be filled with the what Yahweh will give thee.

Turn your ways against your works. That you shall render unto Yahweh and not yourself. That you will know that the works are of the most high and in direct reflection of faith. For faith without works is dead, as is the soul you carry will not pass into the promise land of the most high.

Repent for your hatred and deception, and cast not your strength against the will of the most high Yahweh.

For your time draweth nigh.

Prokofy Neva

I don't understand why I can't criticize Sharia law, radical Islam, and the violation of human rights that they involve. Human rights principles that the Islamic states themselves subscribe to in the universal treaties they sign and in their own charter.

Micha is just ignorant and conservative, believing that any criticism of Islam is "hatred" or "politically incorrect". I find that frightening.

It's like Gordon Brown, the Labour Leader, calling a woman "a bigot" because she criticizes the deficit and immigration policy. Is it not possible to criticize immigration policy without being called "a bigot"? I wonder. I wonder if these socialists are capable of rational thought anymore. I wonder if the Lib Dems would change the political climate and end this period of irrationality that has been so influential.

Tracy Welles

"I don't understand why I can't criticize Sharia law, radical Islam, and the violation of human rights that they involve."

Lean not to your own understanding, but in all ways acknowledge the set apart spirit of truth and the most high Yahweh. For the most high as taught throughout time was authority.

You are not to decipher the law of Yahweh unless you hold the position in his own realm. You have not the authority to over ride or dictate that you speak. You cannot suggest that which your understanding of law has not ordained. For it is of the set apart spirit of Yahweh to bring about truth for all to see. For we are but small in the world of truth. We lack such judgment that Yahweh puts in his way for his own means.

The law is written for the lawless, thus I say, and not Yahweh, that it is written and most important that the covenant be brought forth to all of humanity, for Yahweh hath ordained it so.

May the most high have mercy on those that judge, for in the house of Yahweh so shall they be judged by their words accordingly.

tammstar

"for 6 years or so , griefing prok has provided endless entertainment, and as proks griefing will eventually bring more people to grief prok, the cycle is well deserved"

http://www.secondcitizen.net/Forum/showthread.php?t=6934&page=9

cube inada

we DONT need RATIONAL thought anymore...

that's what the Internetz are for.

Google Search
Wikipedia
Twitter
Facebook "likes"
Blogs

and some gurus thought TV was the cool media..lol;)

"its very cold in metaspace"..

McLuhans bastard son- thunk cube3

Amanda Dallin

Prok did not deserves what he got. If Prok says things you don't like then you can argue back in your own blog, here in comments or what have you. Disrupting his and others use of SL, since they did not limit themselves to just Prok, is wrong and Prok should not have to change what he does on his own SL land or even linden owned public land because of it. Personally i do what you said and simply ban and AR w/o interacting but that's my choice.

There is a comparison between terrorist and griefers. Both use fear to try and modify the behavior of their victims. Of course it's a totally different scale. No sane person says otherwise including Prok.

@ micha
The point about Sharia Law is that it is a strict harsh system where you are guilty until you can prove otherwise if they allow you to have a chance to speak. That's what Prok was obviously saying.

cube inada

http://www.wordyard.com/dmz/digicult/mcluhan-5-3-95.html

thought this was worth a link...

ancient 1995 vintage... but i do like how the "luke warm" analogy pegs the "immersionists" who slipped into the meta "newness" of the recent SL years and who keep droning on an on about a "new time of change"..yadda yadda.

cube inada

http://www.wordyard.com/dmz/digicult/VRML-8-16-95.html

serendipity -i was checking out who the scott rosenberg was who wrote the above mucluhan piece...
and on his archives the first link was to the story above...

all about the birth of the metaspace..---1995-- and irinincally enough it hilights WORLDS.com ( one floor below wired magazines offices in 95) ill bet this was a wired article..

worlds.com as of a few days ago settled its PATENT suit against NCSOFT from 2008 that "threatened all" virtual worlds.. as the pundits would have hadf you beleive in 2008 blogs...

as most lawsuit drieven industies-- no law gets passed-- only money changes hands.. and the "civic public" is left again to be sucked and punched by the next "virtual worlds pyramid scheme" or worse to be released from the labs of berkeley or stannford- or a basement in iceland;)

and so it all goes...loop repeat
and a new TOS for Linden and facebook...

my they end up "archived" the same way...
:)

Desmond Shang

>>"what she DOES deserve is having her vitriol, bile, hatred and utter inability to function in a Civilized Society thrown right back in her face."

You are still blaming the victim here, regardless of how detestable Prok is.

This kind of thinking is exactly what drives a society to send robed guys out with wooden clubs, to ensure that people get what they deserve.

Prokofy Neva

I always chuckle when some indignant self-righteous twit refers to my writings as "vitriol" and "bile". Because sharp criticism of people who themselves are filled with the most vile kind of hatred, pushing back against the evil vitriol of the geek religionists in SL, isn't vitriol itself -- it's a mirror, and it's a pushback. I think it utterly shocks the fucktards and they can't explain it other way but to refer

For example, Joanna Falmer, a vicious little fiction, yammers on and on about my supposed "hatred" of transgendered people. But my "hatred" consists of refusing to play along with the mangina deception of a few very, very specific individuals who first harmed me, namely Pixeleen Mistral, Tizzers Foxchase, and Lili Yifu who I've repeatedly pushed back on, and a few other lesser knowns I've had occasion to counter, i.e. botgirl questi, another pretentious annoyance who himself outed himself. I'm happy to go along with somebody's gender request when they don't first attack and savage me constantly, and don't go along with my gender request. I don't make a big deal of demanding this as a political correctness; it's more like a negative, that when people insist on referring to me by my RL name and "she," it's usually always a marker for harassment. It's done to belittle and harass. So, if that's the coin of the realm, I'll use that coin in kind too. *Shrugs*.

Like I've always said, there is nothing more vicious in any of these games I've been in than the transgendered male-to-female hiding his status, and the occasionally transvestite gale male, regarding the transgendered female-to-male. It's really counter-intuitive, and I can only explain it as being all about a kind of patriarchal insistence on the power of transgendering belonging only to the male lol. Or something.

For example, if I refer to Joanna Falmer as a "vicious little fiction," that's called "bile" and "vitriol". I refuse to accept such a characterization of such a moniker, because it makes it seem as if I'm at fault for labelling and reporting on some vile thing accurately. Joanna Falmer *is* a vile little fiction. He is an obvious and flakey alt changing his story and having been caught out once already and not giving it up. He's behaved abominably, stalking and harassing me for days on end. Why wouldn't you call some little nonentity of that nasty type a "vicious little fiction"? I think it's a perfect name for such a creature.

Or let's take the phrase "evil little BDSM child". Is that "bile" to describe Imnotgoing, a horrid man in SL who constantly pretends he's not dressing up as a *child* who is sexualized, and not only sexualized, but flaunting BDSM memes and artifacts? I mean, what would the *right* thing be to do, embrace, the uh, diversity of such a dysfunctional creep? Why is it "bile" to describe accurately a vicious little BDSM child? It's not.

And so on. It isn't "bile" to describe the malicious foul-mouthed Siggy as malicious and foul-mouthed. He is objectively malicious and foul-mouthed. If you're his friend, and you think I'm biased, and don't think it's objective to call this forums creep what he is, even so, you could concede that the person making that judgement, me, doesn't have to be "filled with bile". They can just be characterizing one of the nasties in SL that probably a good chunk of the reading audience would agree on, and even if they didn't, would realize that it's how some people might see it.

So basically, when somebody accuses me of having "bile" and "vitriol," they mean that:

o I call the Woodburies griefers
o I call Imnotgoingsideways a creepy BDSM child
o I call Mark McCahill and vicious mangina
o I call Joanna Falmer a vicious fictions.

And so on.

I think people have no idea what real bile and vitriol would look like : )

Prokofy Neva

By contrast with Sluniverse.com, where this particular thread has some decency in it, even though ultimately I call it "like a Sharia court" because it is not by any notion of due process, discovery, adversarial defense, truth, etc., the Second Citizen thread is just pure thuggery, just "kill everybody because we hate them all" with no sense of justice at all:

http://www.secondcitizen.net/Forum/showthread.php?t=6934&page=9

Of course, what a choice, eh, between SC, and the evil forum of Sluni, with its pile-ons and arbitrary and sometimes wildly unfair banning of Cristiano, that supercilious Snapshots czar who remains ever light in the loafers, and the various nasties there, including Khamon Fate, who would always be such a turncoat on SLuniverse.com regarding me, as if I couldn't read what he wrote, saying one thing to my face inworld as if a friend, and another thing on Sluniverse.com that would be snorting and nasty. Not people at their best, and egging each other on to mob rule.

But SC has even creepier types on it and nobody seems to stand up to them, although once Forums Court was held on Imnotgoing and he was at least curbed somewhat in some of his more outrageous ageplay edgecasing. Creepy creepy!

If these transgressives Bakuoglu and Jenkins actually studied online communities with any kind of critical distance, they'd study these Forums Courts to see how people in fact develop morality and law with regard to griefers and don't put up with them.

Sean Williams

Amanda, no sane person would equate Terrorists - who KILL people - with Griefers.

Griefers do not "use fear" - that is absurd. Fear is not funny.

Sorry, but when it comes to the continual hatred that Prokofy dishes out all the time? She deserves it right back.

Don't get me wrong - I tried being nice. I tried to respond the way someone in a Civilized Society ought to.

Guess how she responded?

So no - I don't feel sorry for her. I feel sorry for her tenants.

THEY pay the price in the end, all because their landlord refuses to respond in any manner other than the most over the top and aggressive way possible.

Did she deserve ALL that happened to her? No, certainly not.

Desmond ....

"You are still blaming the victim"

No. Prokofy ceased to be a victim after a year of getting the same damned reaction to the way she "handles" these events.

After a year, she became an instigator.

"This kind of thinking is exactly what drives a society to send robed guys out with wooden clubs, to ensure that people get what they deserve."

No Desmond - it isn't.

The way Prokofy handles these events is how such a society as you have described starts.

Micha Sass

@Prokofy. You could be right about the libDems making some positive change, but from the early polls it looks as though Mr. Clegg has slipped to 2nd or 3rd. I think we will get a Tory government this year, not sure how that will work out, most likely bad times for people on low incomes. The fact is, right now everyone is hating and pointing at Islam and Sharia as an evil thing, so do not be too shocked if the BNP get elected, or at least some seats. The BNP is as socialist as they come, they wish to nationalise the telecoms/ISP's and also more of the banking sector (we basically nationalised one builing society already, much like your fanny mae and freddie mac was). The BNP is the real evil, and they are just loving all the muslim hatred that is hanging in the air. Nationalist Socialist are a very worrying option, dare I bring about Godwins law, but this is all going a bit Nazi, the whole rail against islam position. And when Muslims are no longer flavour of the month, if the BNP has power, the Jewish need to hide next.

Any how...

According to the wiki (i know you dislike it..sorry) this is what sharia law says about freedom of speech :

"Sharia allows freedom of speech in a broad sense, granting people the right to talk. However, Sharia does not allow freedom of speech that results in the harm of others unless there is a legal dispute, a public benefit, or a proven right to complaint." (oh and do not harm the name of Allah, else you must be killed)

Take it as you will. The death to those who speaks ill of Allah part is harsh, it kills any concept of religion jokes.

Steam Bunjie

Be Careful what keyword traffic you bring here, trolls and accused griefers are one thing but radical islamic web users are an entire other ball game.

Radical islamic clerics aren't 3000 miles away in another continent, giving you any overland or sea protection from them.

Don't believe me? check out pats feedback page on his site.

A UK resident whom has feedback from radical islamic UK residents.

http://www.patcondell.net/page4/page4.html

http://www.youtube.com/patcondell

Speaking out against oppression is a great act if done the correct way.

Try not to take on too much Prokofy :) your too public to take on Islam and sharia law.

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