What If We Could Start Over?

I've been thinking about this subject for literally a year, meaning to blog about it and pausing every time by thinking that I need to think more deeply. Now that I'm going to SLCC at the last minute, it will be interesting to see if anybody else is thinking along these lines.

What I mean by "start over" isn't just going on some Open Sim, with different/better/fancier/cheaper/etc. technology. I mean something completely different. I mean *not* having the technology drive the virtual world at all.

Imagine if you first got together a group of people. They could be like-minded, or they could be one of those even somewhat fake "from all walks of life" sort of groups that intellectuals like to put on panels. So you get this group of people together, and you ask them:

What use would you have for a virtual world?

What would *you* do with a virtual world?

What would you need a virtual world *for*?

Why do you *want* a virtual world in the first place?

THEN after you thrash through those questions, you fit the technology to the answers.

At this MacArthur discussion held a year ago, where Global Kids were the moderators, there were some people brought in to discuss their experiences trying to do nonprofit work. I don't remember their RL names and avatar/RL correlations, it is probably on the web somewhere or can be picked out of this dump of transcripts below (which I think reflects the room chat but there were voice presentations, which is why it doesn't seem coherent).

What's operative is that these people were sort of "untouched". 'They were not the kind of people who played the Sims Online or World of Warcraft or who had been in SL before. They weren't tekkies or geeks. They were just the sort of liberal or progressive types you'd expect to be fetched up in a MacArthur program. I remember distinctly how one woman sort of laid out a premise. She hadn't had that much experience in SL, and she was trying to figure out what to do with it. You got the feeling that the MacArthur program officers may have even sort of nudged their grantees into using SL, which they were enthusiastic about in 2007 like a lot of other people during the hype ascent, and these grantees may have been reluctant. I think they are less enthusiastic now, but the point still retains -- this woman, unencumbered by technical considerations like "what effect will mesh have on the economy?" or "should the JIRA have a 'no' vote capacity?" or "why is tier expensive?" simply tried to think aloud about how you could use a virtual world *first*. She didn't come in and say "Oh, here it all is. Now how do I use it?!"

She came up with a story of a young girl in a program after school -- I believe it was related to a museum in Chicago. And she pictured her dangerous course between school--the program--home -- riddled with gang members, drug dealers, etc.  So she theorized that to help a girl like that, you could have her construct a more ideal and safe neighbourhood, where she would be able to traverse safelty and productively to talk to friends, do her homework, etc.

Of course, this fantasizing, if you will, took a kind of Sesame Street turn -- the tendency of liberals always to work on saving the inner city ghetto and never the whole city or other classes of people that, if shored up, might produce more. Even so, the point was valid -- what can a virtual world be *for*?

It's the right question to ask *first*.

In her mind, it was for prototyping a projection of something preferable to real life, but as a kind of operating model in conjunction with a real-life situation. In the discussion, I recall, it was already sort of a priori rejected that you create an alternative universe as an alternative destination with a virtual world -- that was too untethered from reality, that was too fake, like a game, so to speak. Instead, you had to use it "for something real," such as helping this girl.

Of course, I'm quick to point out that making up liberal fantasies about how inner city youth might have better lives is as much of a creation of a fantasy as making an alternative, stand-alone "fantasy world". When you get down to it, most of what people construct is a fantasy world -- the fantasy only generally reaches out five minutes in advance -- I'll go get that Diet Coke in a minute when I finish this email; tomorrow I'll take the day off; next year I could retire; etc. People project alternatives all the time that have one foot in the reality of their possibilities, and another "in a fantasy world".

There was another concept, too, underlying this woman's serious contemplation of "why virtuality" and that was something like the Blog de Narco concept -- that perhaps, in this virtual world, accessed through a museum program, a girl could socialize, make things, interact, etc. in ways that she couldn't if her grim job as an elementary school kid was to scurry the gauntlet home between drugs and thugs. The idea of virtuality as safety from real life. Sitting on the stoop in RL might get you a bullet or lure you into a life of drug addiction; not so Second Life. At least...it would be another kind of addiction..."safer".

Well that was only one idea. And unfortunately, when people try to describe the good aspects of virtuality, they often come up with altruistic ideas or actual programs to cite that help the poor, the disabled, the catastrophe victim -- and not simply a program that makes life a little happier and a little easier for *most* ordinary people (like Skype). And I'm a big believer in not "selling" or "proseltyzing" SL on this basis of "think of the children" -- hence the skirmish in IMs also included here during that meeting with the fussy Gus Plisskin).

I really mean to take it back further, too, as the museum woman was basically accepting all the technical limitations and framework "as is" -- and I wouldn't do that.

No, if I had to do it all over again, I'm make sure that the geeks at the switchboard were very, very different people than those now at the Lab, or those in the concentric rings around them on the JIRA or in SLDEV or in the groupies at the office hours.

In part, it would be what Ann Otoole talks about, "meeting customer requirements" and having engineers not engage in "anti patterns".

I would *first* sit down and make the governance program, *then* turn on the world.

I'd first make the requirements for a voting system and a features request system and a bug reporting, *then* turn it on.

I'd first make a concept of how a land market should be run, *and then* set up auctions or put land for sale.

I'd first make rules about protection of intellectual property, and *then* make a DRM system, a complaints system, and a third-party viewers policy.

In other words, instead of doing everything ass-backwards, I would first make the rules of the world, then make the world fit them -- after all, it is a virtual world, and you should be able to do that!!!

For example, if your goal was to have more mass participation, you would have to start by making a thinner client, *then* turn on the world. Or you'd say, you know, we can't add point-to-point teleportation...we can't even add user-generated content! -- if we want it to be mass.

And then, if you contemplated that having a UGC world was paramount (I'd agree), you'd say, ok, we won't have more than 100,000 concurrency, so let's plan for that! Let's not put the cart before the horse here!

In this focus group of pre-world planning, I'd have people put up lists (no mind-map ridicularity please) on a board that explain what they value. What they want. What they don't want. These things might be:

o robustly working group chat

o resident land auction

o sculpties

but not include

o voice (although that really doesn't seem so hard to add on)

o mesh

o blanket open perms

Each feature is a toggle of yes/no/maybe; maybe you vote. Maybe you compromise even after getting an up and down yes/no vote.

I think over a period of 3-7 days -- or maybe it has to be a series of meetings over a year! -- in a sort of retreat, you could hammer out your world-features that would be what you'd like to see in your geodesic dome, your biosphere. Which is how you would think of it. Going into it, what can't you live without. What is a burden to maintain. What is optional.

What I'm trying to suggest here is that in a grown-up thoughtful exercise like this -- I wish I'd been organized enough to suggest and register a panel at this at SLCC -- you'd come up with a framework that would guide the world/operating system/platform, instead of having the technology always beat you down, always restrict you, always drive you.

Like I said, you'd be dispensing with all but the most necessary and like-minded geeks at the start of this operation LOL.

For example, in a contemplative pre-world planning effort like this, a question like "let's have the window close after you TP from a search result" would never, ever emerge as a project some world-builder would be egotistically wrapped up on. That's because the overarching job of the world -- let's say, to help educate girls in terribly unsafe places, or to create rich dating and socializing experiences, or to explain about oil accidents and clean-ups or to put on an art show -- would be driving the entire show, instead of this sort of picayune obsessiveness that comes with spending weeks on end to make avatar feet shadow render.

And cascading from the "First Principles" so to speak, would be a series of world-building ethical considerations, where these high-minded, thoughtful sorts would turn to each other, at this mountain retreat, and say:

"We would never have the window close after TP from search results because that would go against our original principle that shoppers and their ease of purchases have to come first before code symmetry, platform provider revenue, or some other secondary notion."

"Shoppers first!" every one would nod sagely, in this meeting, on the mountain...And because you'd *started* with people who shared that goal, accepted that was the consensus, understood this was vital for the economy, you wouldn't have a dissident faction haranguing you about the need to force views of classifieds...or force symmetry for some arcane reason.

If you had the itching need to get rid of things after avatars teleport, you could pour that energy into getting rid of the ugly instrusive red beam after you teleport. Once you arrived at that grid destination and were guided by the beam, it should "just know" that it is time to fade now. You shouldn't have to go harking back to the map and turn it off.

I guess I'm thinking of Lost Horizons -- it seemed a perfect world, it was getting along fine, but when there came a plumber who had all sorts of visions of civic improvements with pipes, they let him do his thing, but it didn't seem to disturb the whole vision...

Before burdening the world with an unworkable Google search, you would ask, hey, what do we need to *find* here? What is our world *for*? Maybe we could make do with a MYSQL database that merely hunts up strings of parcel names and matches them to foot traffic, and renders a list! Maybe we don't have to crawl every single piece of text generated by the world (picks not on land that isn't in search), maybe we don't have to crawl every single object on every parcel, maybe we don't need to suck in townhall transcripts from 2006 and propagandistic descriptions on the Linden website of their product. It could just be a yellow pages. Because *that's all we need for this world, we don't need more.*

And so on -- I could discuss 100 issues in this way -- how you would first decide what you need, then, with a very wary eye, look at the technical prospects surrounding them. The lever would go down on technical feature after technical feature -- Windlight skies are not needed, at least not now. And so on. The governance of the world, making people enter it easily and use it easily comes first because that was our world-making mandate to start with.

Just IMAGINE what you could do with a world if you PUT THE WORLD FIRST, and THEN turned on the technology!

All kinds of things might happen -- you might decide that maintaining inventories is too hard, that you have to have some accounts that don't get to have inventories until they pay real money. Or a continent where free anonymous accounts can enter and try out things, but where they have to pay if they want to enter a main continent. Or you decide that all those people hiding behind screens now as help deskers have to come inworld and sit at desks inworld. Or maybe some of them...

I mean, once you start putting the world-horse before its technology-cart, once you are free of the exigencies of geek-religion-driven tech shaping your experience, you might completely dispense with some of the technology or tekkie decision-making -- or not. You might say, "We really need a functioning currency exchange before we open up past beta."

If you put the world first, it might be better. I've never felt as if the Lindens did that. They didn't really, by their own admission.

Of course, they did have worlds in mind. But these were sci-fi, often dystopian models from the Matrix or Snowcrash or even Tron. Snowcrash had a neat boardwalk and a club that was cool for Hero Protagonist, but what if you were one of the grey people logging on from public terminals with only a few Barbie or Ken skins to chose from and no weapons? What if you were the guy with "Poor Impulse Control" stamped on your forehead -- or worse, one of his victims? Then Snowcrash wasn't so fun.

If you could really sit down and make the world parameters seriously, and not goof around like it's sci-fi club, how different could you make it?

I also wonder if it were possible, even taking an Open Sim sort of technology, and working with it differently. Imagine, instead of those thin-skinned pioneers selling sims for $70 to become popular, you had a different set of people -- people who weren't thin-skinned, who weren't pioneers, and who charged $1000 because they needed development money -- money that the group democratically participated in, not waiting on the devs' suffrance. What if everybody could say:  "Now we need to buy another engineer; now we need to go into the cloud; now we need to dump the Facebook connection, it's not adding value" -- or whatever. A set of democratically discussed and decided propositions that came *first* in a transparent way, before you were left being told that you "can't" undo the GSA that crawled for 4 months "just because". Because money, egos, etc. were lost on it.

Now, would you *have* to be a nonprofit or a selfless commune sort of operation to produce this kind of first-world, then-technology operation? Well, the more liberal and idealistic types might think so. I don't. I think to have the world not turn out like so many open sims and wonderlands and such, you have to have people who start out saying, "We are making money with this in X and Y way." Sort of like a developer in a town. The town might give the developer a tax holiday. Or put restrictions on him. The people wanting new houses would pick designs and make requests. The developer *would adjust*. If nobody wanted the little seahorse tiles on the suburban tract home shower stalls, he wouldn't force them on people; if they *wanted* them, he would adjust his mass pattern and let them be put in.

Maybe people think the way to "fix" Second Life is to scrap its "outmoded" or "non-opensource" technology, or its engine, or this or that architectural decision. Whatever. I think what's really more operative is to fix the governance *first*. That's why in writing to Philip, my first proposal wasn't "stop lag" or "make mesh" but "separate a feature voter out of the JIRA and open up free speech on the JIRA".

For better or worse, the JIRA, the votes, the suppression of speech, the Linden manipulations -- this *is* the system of governance. And it really stinks. And it really is a HORRIBLE prototype for the future of the Metaverse. HORRIBLE, because it is an embryonic totalitarianism. I don't want Alexa Linden or Soft Linden or other ego-driven maniac deciding that the window has to close after you TP on search; I don't want Sea Linden destroying thousands of people's livlihoods with a Google Search fetish; I want thousands of merchants and thousands of shoppers to be able easily, effortlessly, and rewardingly to vote on this question, so that Ego Linden has to say, hmm, I hadn't realized it was THAT big a deal, harumph, ok, I'll stop.

Mind you, I don't have some utopian belief in direct democracy. I'm for representative democracy precisely for the reason that you might get 1,000 shoppers or merchants deciding that they can't live without scripted resizing shoes, and only 2 engineers and 1 smart blogger voting against them because they lag sims. This is why you have representative democracy. So that you have a Senate Scripted Shoes Sub-Committee that holds a hearing, brings forward the facts, and has a vote by responsible people who ran for election on realistic platforms and not lies -- or at least, if they are lies, "I promise you all endless scripted shoe satisfaction!" that they don't get a second term lol.

The creaky governance system of SL -- the JIRA, the Linden blogs, the forums (awful), the bloggers, the inworld meetings -- it works about as good as Kyrgyzstan.

Too many special interests, holdovers from past regimes, criminal kingpins, ethnic-hatred inciters, major powers with air bases, etc.

(Why did they take that dweeb Pirillo to Cubey's Aerodrome???)

Why couldn't we start over with DIFFERENT people and ideas who didn't wreck the world with their culture?

Well, we don't get the do-over we want. We had a rare moment in the Sims where the makers began to do do-overs -- first the hardcore "sandbox," i.e. "not easy" Dragon's Cove to undo inflation and cheating; then new content; then even user-generated content; then even a promised economy with cashouts...then crashing, burning and GAME OVER.

Something still to be contemplated.

The transcripts from a year ago below.

[12:14]  Ran Hienrichs: Great, a moderator, thanks.
[12:15]  ProDeoPat Halostar: I'll try to come back in but forgive me if I do anything embarrassing when I do. LOL.
[12:16]  Patio Plasma: I went to a couple of those presentations. Nicely done
[12:16]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: :)
[12:16]  Citizen Thursday: Iiris, olen täällä
[12:17]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
[12:17]  Connected
[12:17]  Patio Plasma: I loved that you showed the new slide and the previous slide and the presenter
[12:18]  Citizen Thursday: Olen siis täällä jo
[12:19]  Rik Riel: no that waas great!
[12:19]  Jin Cyberschreiber: nice!
[12:19]  Rik Riel: thanks joyce!
[12:19]  Verde Otaared: Great Katy :)
[12:19]  Eugine Leonov: /clap
[12:19]  Edmond Blindside: /clap
[12:19]  Kate Correiado: Thanks
[12:19]  Buffy Beale: claps madly
[12:19]  Speedracer Andretti: Good stuff!
[12:20]  Rik Riel: http://www.architreasures.org
[12:21]  Lutz Zapedzki: =)
[12:21]  scuzzi Jetcity: sound ok here
[12:22]  Rik Riel: doh! will do
[12:24]  Rik Riel snorts
[12:24]  Prokofy Neva: the design tools probably wouldn't be sophisticated enough for a real professional artist, it's more about empowering amateurs and having professionals at least have the value-add of interactivity and serendipity
[12:24]  Jin Cyberschreiber: haha
[12:25]  Ninlil Xeltentat still drowns and sits in people's laps
[12:25]  Nany Kayo: (we can breathe underwater)
[12:25]  Prokofy Neva: well the sense of transformation is more spiritual and internal, it's not so much "alternate" as it is "internal"
[12:26]  Prokofy Neva: the key to changing outward reality through trnsformation in atoms would have to occur also by internal changes, no?
[12:26]  Katy Wetherby: Thanks, Patio Plasma
[12:26]  Lutz Zapedzki: Lets try to keep our questions til the end please :)
[12:28]  Rik Riel: no really cool!
[12:28]  Ruby Glitter: No! It's really interesting.
[12:28]  Edmond Blindside: Nah, it's great!
[12:28]  Prokofy Neva: SL would prefer you handily for that experience of what it's like if your put out something and its publicly abused, just locate on the mainland
[12:28]  Khamon Fate: You seriously don't want to use Second Life to train people in the proper use of public spaces.
[12:28]  Prokofy Neva: *prepare you
[12:28]  Prokofy Neva: no she would, because it will be good practice for vandalism in RL
[12:32]  Rik Riel: wow!
[12:32]  Rik Riel: really great
[12:32]  MLani Montgomery: applause
[12:32]  Gatz Morang: excellent presentation, Joyce
[12:32]  See Haiku: really interesting Joyce
[12:32]  Jin Cyberschreiber: /clap
[12:32]  Kate Correiado: /claps
[12:32]  Speedracer Andretti: Thank you.
[12:32]  Verde Otaared: Very cool
[12:32]  Edmond Blindside: terrific!
[12:33]  Jin Cyberschreiber: go, see!
[12:33]  Prokofy Neva: well wait, all of a sudden you went from knocking SL as like a drug-taker's alternate reality to saying maybe SL could be used to map, and then impose, some changes on to reality. So how did you make that leap?
[12:34]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: might have been initial thoughts compared to later ones
[12:35]  Gatz Morang: can't wait to hear from Prok on this one =)
[12:35]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: or a notecard in SL
[12:35]  Prokofy Neva: I don't like forced exercises like this, but how many here have an avatar that is opposite their gender, and not of their race? Raise their hand!
[12:35]  Khamon Fate: Notecards are not formattable and cannot be updated by scripts.
[12:36]  Khamon Fate: Being a plant, I'm hardly of my race ha ha ha
[12:36]  Prokofy Neva: ok you can half raise your hand then, Khamon!
[12:36]  Ruby Glitter: "twitter to connect with community, advocate, spread ideas"
[12:36]  MLani Montgomery: Why do I write? To vent...to keep from knocking someone's lights out.
[12:37]  Khamon Fate: Who was the community organizer, I'm composing answers for her but don't know who to send them to as there's no text version of the chat.
[12:37]  Nany Kayo: I write right here at the computer. I write to communicate with people I meet here.
[12:37]  Katy Wetherby: II write content everyday at work. I don't think I've gone a week without serious writing time for the past 4 years!
[12:37]  Edmond Blindside: I write in my notebook because my hand does some thinking on its own
[12:37]  Verde Otaared: to communicate with friends and share my life with them
[12:37]  Patio Plasma: I write everywhere and at everytime.
To formulate Ideas, and communicate with others.
[12:37]  Iiris Mannonen: I write at my work mostly, sometimes at home too, but it happens rarely. Nothing creative....
[12:37]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: I write in emails, blogging, for documentation & notes, for creative expression/poetry.
[12:37]  Helena Whittlesea: everywhere/because I have to
[12:37]  moeshere Foxdale: I don't write because my mind will tell on me...
[12:37]  Buffy Beale: I write and the beach after a long walk with time spent reflecting
[12:37]  Speedracer Andretti: I write emails pretty much.
[12:37]  Buffy Beale: *at the beach :)
[12:37]  Khamon Fate: Our QEP is writing based. We investigated SL but dismissed the possiblity of using it effectively.
[12:38]  Khamon Fate: It is true. That's a component of our QEP.
[12:39]  Ruby Glitter: Right on, See.
[12:39]  scuzzi Jetcity: sl is just a stage and we are but players, We write dynamic collaborative role play as we do it ;)
[12:40]  moeshere Foxdale: no wonder I couldn't find her lol
[12:40]  scuzzi Jetcity: and adults
[12:41]  Nany Kayo: they have to physically travel to these conferences?
[12:45]  Prokofy Neva: I'm not sure there's a way to make and store inworld a sound recording other than like a 30 second sound clip? did anybody try that with the new media api?
[12:46]  moeshere Foxdale: ohhhh there so pretty
[12:46]  Rik Riel: thanks! woo hoo!
[12:46]  Jin Cyberschreiber: clap
[12:46]  moeshere Foxdale: thank you
[12:46]  Kate Correiado: /claps
[12:46]  Buffy Beale: thanks!
[12:46]  Speedracer Andretti: Thanks
[12:46]  Verde Otaared claps
[12:46]  Edmond Blindside: /clappity clapp clapp clapp
[12:47]  moeshere Foxdale: YOU go girl...
[12:47]  Rik Riel: yeah
[12:47]  Speedracer Andretti: Yes
[12:47]  See Haiku: yes
[12:47]  Patio Plasma: yes
[12:47]  scuzzi Jetcity: sound good
[12:47]  Gus Plisskin: yes, we can hear you fine
[12:48]  See Haiku: yes,I forgot to thank them too! Thank you.
[12:48]  Katy Wetherby: Word! I agree with Jin, thanks to MacArthur and Global Kids~
[12:48]  Prokofy Neva: I think it's interesting that a venerable organization like Vera has come into SL, hasn't it been around for 30 years or so doing civil rights and prison work.
[12:48]  Jin Cyberschreiber: thanks
[12:48]  Gatz Morang: just click the camera play button
[12:48]  Buffy Beale: yes working fine
[12:49]  Helena Whittlesea: got it
[12:49]  Rik Riel: thanks
[12:49]  Rik Riel: type into text chat when you ahve finished viewing
[12:49]  Patio Plasma: vid and sound good
[12:49]  Prokofy Neva: ok
[12:49]  Edmond Blindside: OK
[12:50]  Helena Whittlesea: mine got stuck - had to retoggle and start over...
[12:50]  Rik Riel: such is the wonders of video in SL
[12:50]  See Haiku: stuck
[12:50]  Ruby Glitter: Ditto, Helena.
[12:50]  Gus Plisskin: My video froze too.
[12:50]  Helena Whittlesea: yikes. again, same place
[12:50]  Rik Riel: its just 40 seconds
[12:50]  See Haiku: restarted
[12:50]  Helena Whittlesea: beautiful up to then!
[12:50]  Ruby Glitter: It keeps stopping at the same point.
[12:50]  Rik Riel: we can post the youtube link to the fulll video
[12:50]  Sarvana Haalan: audio... no video
[12:51]  Helena Whittlesea: that'd be great rik
[12:51]  Patio Plasma: sticks at the same place
[12:51]  Prokofy Neva: well it's ok we can just hear you talk and see the film late ron Youtube or something
[12:51]  Katy Wetherby: video is above... look up
[12:51]  Gatz Morang: yeah...gets stuck at the same spot every time for me too
[12:51]  See Haiku: same place, gets stuck
[12:51]  Verde Otaared: stuck for me too
[12:51]  Helena Whittlesea waves at prok!
[12:51]  Ruby Glitter: YouTube link would be great.
[12:51]  scuzzi Jetcity: half a woman?
[12:51]  Rik Riel: where is our speaker?
[12:51]  Prokofy Neva: did she crash?
[12:51]  Rik Riel: its possible
[12:52]  Sarvana Haalan: where did she go?
[12:52]  Prokofy Neva: Well, Vera is well known in New York City, it has done work on juvenile justice and justice for immigrants
[12:52]  Prokofy Neva: how did they get SL to connect?
[12:52]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: here she comes
[12:52]  Rik Riel: oh there she is!
[12:52]  Prokofy Neva: Jin is caspering
[12:52]  Rik Riel: welcome back Jin!
[12:53]  Katy Wetherby: Welcome back, Jin!
[12:53]  Jin Cyberschreiber: hello
[12:53]  Prokofy Neva: wb
[12:53]  Jin Cyberschreiber: sorry about that!
[12:53]  scuzzi Jetcity: wb
[12:53]  Rik Riel: np
[12:53]  See Haiku: Hey!
[12:53]  Speedracer Andretti: Back by popular demand.
[12:53]  Jin Cyberschreiber: ccan you h hear me
[12:53]  scuzzi Jetcity: ~laughs~
[12:53]  Prokofy Neva: no
[12:53]  Ruby Glitter: No, I don't hear you.
[12:53]  Jin Cyberschreiber: oh oh
[12:53]  Rik Riel: nope
[12:53]  Jin Cyberschreiber: well, I'll just type fast!!
[12:53]  Prokofy Neva: you don't have the green waves on your head
[12:53]  Helena Whittlesea: you're not in active speakers jin
[12:54]  Prokofy Neva: you have to toggle the edit/preferences/audio to your computer's actual hardware sometimes to kick it in
[12:54]  Jin Cyberschreiber: still not there yet
[12:54]  Jin Cyberschreiber: apologies
[12:54]  Prokofy Neva: edit/preferences/voice chat/device settings
[12:54]  Rik Riel: it happens
[12:54]  Lutz Zapedzki: no worreis Jin, happens to us all
[12:54]  Ran Hienrichs: I love video
[12:54]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
[12:54]  Connected
[12:54]  Rik Riel: try and toggle it off and on in your preferences
[12:54]  Prokofy Neva: change device setting from default to your own computer
[12:54]  Jin Cyberschreiber: okay, instead of waiting I'll try this
[12:54]  Joyce Firehawk: Is that bad?
[12:55]  Prokofy Neva: or you could type, works too
[12:55]  Lutz Zapedzki: ok sounds good Jin, feel free to type
[12:55]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: only that in if you talk we will hear you
[12:55]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: so be aware of that
[12:55]  Ruby Glitter: Hello!
[12:55]  Lutz Zapedzki: yay!
[12:55]  Rik Riel: WOOT!!!!!
[12:55]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: yes and we can hear you now
[12:55]  Rik Riel: yeah!
[12:55]  Edmond Blindside: Welcome back. No worries.
[12:58]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: well if it was able to allow for collaborative workflow in a geographically distributed way
[12:58]  Ran Hienrichs: Can you write the name in local chat, I didn't hear it.
[12:58]  Prokofy Neva: well build a replica of Spofford, for example, that would be an example of something that needs to change.
[12:58]  You decline G & M SionChicken Farm, Royal Palms (90, 22, 21) from A group member named Miss Cham.
[12:58]  Jin Cyberschreiber: www.accessingsafety.org
[12:58]  Flight/TimeAndDate object (Wearable): Flight system online.
[12:58]  Ran Hienrichs: Thank you.
[12:59]  Flight/TimeAndDate object (Wearable): Please type 'X help' for more help with commands
[12:59]  Flight/TimeAndDate object (Wearable): Please type 'X help' for more help with commands
[13:00]  Ran Hienrichs: Brilliant use of the technology
[13:02]  Speedracer Andretti: Thanks!
[13:02]  Prokofy Neva: If your NGO is very dependent on lengthy reports, documents, spread sheets and long structured Kabuki theater meetings then SL would strip away some of those non-essentials to increase both the intellectual and emotional bandwidth available for the task, and to bring in also people across geography and time zones.
[13:02]  Rik Riel: clap clap
[13:02]  Ran Hienrichs: Great work, and very meaningful and useful.
[13:02]  Lutz Zapedzki: Great thanks Jin!
[13:02]  Buffy Beale: Great!
[13:02]  Dancers Yao: thanks excellent
[13:02]  Curious George claps
[13:02]  Joyce Firehawk: Good jobl
[13:03]  Kate Correiado: thanks!
[13:03]  Verde Otaared applauds loudly
[13:03]  Prokofy Neva: or at least it would make an alternative space to go into things without those traditional structures
[13:03]  Jin Cyberschreiber: thanks
[13:03]  Edmond Blindside: Terrif. Provocative. Tahnk you
[13:04]  Jin Cyberschreiber: prokofy thanks for the ideas would like to hear more
[13:04]  Buffy Beale: Love these sessions to connect with like-minded people
[13:05]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: http://holymeatballs.org
[13:05]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: :)
[13:05]  Rhiannon Chatnoir is Joyce btw
[13:05]  Jin Cyberschreiber: thanks again
[13:05]  Rik Riel: questionsfor our speakers?
[13:05]  Prokofy Neva: I had one for the first speaker from the Art Institute
[13:05]  Rik Riel: go ahead prok
[13:06]  Patio Plasma: Katy what feedback did managers at the adler have about your experience in SL?
[13:06]  Prokofy Neva: about the job of creating alternate reality which she felt was like the drug-taker or Aldous Huxley's doors of perceptions or the job of prototyping reality such as to then impose that template on Rl later
[13:06]  Prokofy Neva: so I wanted to clarify what her concept was, whether it was one or the other or merely an open ended exploration
[13:07]  Prokofy Neva: So many things about social media are being prototyped for reality in ways that are not a good thing like the concept of "flagging" or "no no vote" or "whoever shows up decides" undermining democratic votes, which was ported wholesale to Beth Noveck's Whitehouse.gov website
[13:07]  Prokofy Neva: are you saying you are here because your boss told you to come?
[13:08]  Rik Riel: lol
[13:08]  Katy Wetherby: ol!
[13:08]  Katy Wetherby: forgot an l there
[13:09]  Jin Cyberschreiber: I have a question for our audience
[13:09]  scuzzi Jetcity: yep
[13:09]  Sarvana Haalan: yes
[13:09]  Jin Cyberschreiber: why did you come here today?
[13:09]  Peetucket Antwerp: my head just disappeared
[13:10]  Ninlil Xeltentat: because i'm a nerd and i love to learn about new things i may not have thought of.
[13:10]  Sarvana Haalan: Read a Betterverse tweet and was interested in potential content.
[13:10]  scuzzi Jetcity: to see what everyone else is up to
[13:10]  Prokofy Neva: well I was hoping that people on MacArthur grants sort of compelled to come in here and reflect as non-residents originally as part of their grants would have some good best practices and useful criticism and ideas that might be different than those of us like me who have used SL as a small business online and also an experiment in trying to create civil society online.
[13:10]  Jin Cyberschreiber: tuty thanks for the support!
[13:10]  Greg Varthader: I was exploring 2nd life as a possible tool for remote discussion and collaboration, searched for event and hear I am
[13:10]  Rik Riel: I think a lot of the people here are from the nonprofit community in SL
[13:10]  Sandie Harbour: I want to get involved
[13:10]  Ninlil Xeltentat: lol, because 15 credits in grad school this semester is not enough. lol.
[13:10]  Jin Cyberschreiber: lol
[13:10]  Joyce Firehawk: What is the question for Joyce?
[13:11]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: great Greg
[13:11]  Sarvana Haalan: must finish a report... will be back in a bit
[13:11]  Prokofy Neva: I'm in at least 5 nonprofits in real life as part of my Rl work, and I'd be hard put to convince them to put a lot of investment into SL unless they first knew their own minds and what they wanted to achieve in this space, it isn't something magic that increases membership or engagement anymore than junk mail or websites do those things.
[13:11]  Gatz Morang: I am interested in ways that professional organizations are are finding SL useful...this sounded like it would be a discussion from people evaluating an initial preview of SL
[13:11]  Greg Varthader: has anyone heard of open space conferences beign held in SL?
[13:12]  Jin Cyberschreiber: that would be interesting
[13:12]  Rik Riel: prok makes a good point about non over-romaticizing these tools
[13:12]  Jin Cyberschreiber: yes
[13:12]  Rik Riel: you should have claer goals coming in, and reasonable expectations
[13:13]  Gatz Morang: I'm still not convinced that SL does anything but get in the way
[13:13]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: yes and as Rik said, if you want to be invited to these events you can join the group: MacArthur Foundation SL Events (just search for it within groups)
[13:13]  Prokofy Neva: If you ask your boss and your board, would we like to start a magazine online, with 4 staff people half or full time, with constantly refreshed content, with user comments and moderation, with web programmers required, for a budget of anywhere from $10,000 to $50,000 a year, that's the same question you'd ask if you asked "Should this NGo get an SL island?". If you dont' think you could start and staff and fill an online magazine, then you'd have the same issues in SL.
[13:13]  See Haiku: I am interested to know if folks know of places in virtual worlds where folks present case studies of practice for discussion.
[13:14]  Rik Riel: that happens for the educational community a lot
[13:14]  Gus Plisskin: Rik: Clear goals are a good starting point, but goals may reasonably change as an org gets more experience with Second Life
[13:14]  Jin Cyberschreiber: I can see a more immediate use re: training for our own staff
[13:14]  Jin Cyberschreiber: I still think it's a hard sell in getting government officials to use this
[13:14]  Prokofy Neva: But you know, i have a tenant who pays me a grand total of $2.50 US rent a month. And he uses his little rental in our church plaza replicate to run a senior center in RL for seniors learning how to use the Internet. So you don't need a budget and staff, but you do need to know your own mind and not expect the technology to perform magic, it will not, it will be in the way.
[13:14]  Rik Riel: i.e. the New Media Consortium does educational conferences in here with best practices and evaluations
[13:15]  See Haiku: thansks Rik ... I'll check that out.
[13:15]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: I agree Gus, of course that can also be guided and helped by becoming part of other learning or nonprofit communities like Tech Soup (NonProfit Commons)
[13:15]  Gatz Morang: how does SL serve those conferences better than other tools?
[13:15]  See Haiku: thanks Tuty ... I'll check that out too.
[13:16]  Joyce Firehawk: Yes,
[13:16]  Ash Marat: i would be cautious not to fault SL or any other venue for issues endemic to institutional philanthropy, by way of program popularity, staffing, etc.
[13:16]  Prokofy Neva: I have tenants who are disabled in RL and chose to have wheelchairs on SL too and form clubs and events and help educate the public, and draw attention to the island that works on these issues, it's not something that requires even a dedicated island, you could come here even with a free account and stlil accomplish something, but you would need to be rooted in understanding of what your RL operation really gets from meeting online other than nuisances. And the answer is -- it gets increased bandwidth for communications in an interactive world that is 3-d and has asyncrhonous capacity and serendipity, i.e. finding people by chance who are like-minded and share interests, it accelerates serendipity. But thse things can take trial and error.
[13:17]  Joyce Firehawk: Tuty - the question?
[13:17]  Ninlil Xeltentat has a free account and has never put a penny into it of her own money, still gets a lot done
[13:18]  scuzzi Jetcity: collobarive environments
[13:18]  Joyce Firehawk: I think that SL could provide a "safe place" for kids to interact with one another, which it does - the question is how to structure that interaction?
[13:18]  Prokofy Neva: Yes, Ash you make a good point, all of philanthropy itself must be reformed, it is always trying to reform society as if it is a static controller and itself never having to change or be disrupted. But now it will literally run out of money from the last century's wealth, and it has to figure out how to attract and generate new wealth and not just force politically-correct solutions on its hapless grantees.
[13:19]  Ash Marat: indeed, prok. not to mention that it is definitively in the intractability business.
[13:19]  scuzzi Jetcity: yep loise
[13:19]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: there are some amazing uses of this space for disability and support groups
[13:19]  Rhiannon Chatnoir waves to Louise
[13:19]  Prokofy Neva: The woman who had the idea of SL as a place to navigate safe from gangs, that's interesting, although SL itself is a grand incubator of gang like criminal activity too, so again, it's a question of how to organize and control the environment, but that sounds like a promising idea to try.
[13:19]  scuzzi Jetcity: tbh, i got one leg and inSL i can dance
[13:20]  Jin Cyberschreiber: re: safe spaces for kids - does anyone know how/if SL can be used for therapeutic groups?
[13:20]  Rik Riel: of the other virtual worls outside of SL that you have seen, which one interests you the most?
[13:20]  Prokofy Neva: Jin, there used to be the woman who ran the activities for stroke victims, she died, and I'm not sure her work was continued at that level it was once but she ran it for years very successfully
[13:20]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: if you want to chat on an interesting project ask Louise Later about the Virtual Guide dog and using it as a open source tool to help visually imparied and blind peopel experience SL which is to most a mostly visual medium
[13:20]  Prokofy Neva: Her name was The Sojourner
[13:21]  Joyce Firehawk: Hey everyone - I need to take off. Thanks for the opportuniity.
[13:21]  See Haiku: I really loved Whyreef actually.
[13:21]  scuzzi Jetcity: let the kids build a world in sl that makes them feel safe?
[13:21]  Jin Cyberschreiber: bye joyce
[13:21]  Prokofy Neva: if you go searching thruogh events and groups you will find many support groups for all kinds of things but it's sort of happenstance and amateur, although a few formal NGos have come in
[13:21]  See Haiku: Metaplace seemed interesting too.
[13:21]  Prokofy Neva: I like Metaplace but it doesn't have the capacity for easily generating user content that SL does, oddly as that may seem given that it is easier to use in some respects
[13:21]  Rik Riel: heres the link to Whyreef: http://208.85.242.184:8070
[13:21]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: yes, The Sojourner was the cornerstone person who really helped kick off a lot of the support and disability groups in SL, and even after her passing there is a thriving community as well as others that have sprung from it or inspired by it
[13:21]  Rik Riel: sorry this link: http://www.whyville.net/smmk/top/gates?source=reef
[13:21]  Ninlil Xeltentat: Louise, I always use the Virtual Guide Dog as a selling point for why SL is worth it.
[13:22]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: do you have a link Louise on info on te Guide Dog
[13:23]  Prokofy Neva: Ninlil, I'll have to be harsh here: if the only way you can sell a visual, 3-D, dynamically updating virtual world is that the blind can use it with AI dogs, you haven't sold the world -- the world has to be sold for maintream use too or it is doomed as an oddity, and why would you bother then? thre are cheaper technologies to use
[13:23]  See Haiku: I think this map site has some interesting uses of SL : http://www.davidrumsey.com/
[13:23]  Rik Riel: BTW, if you haven't seen, there are a couple of billboards in here that give links to the websites of the respective organizations who are here
[13:23]  See Haiku: I bet this might be interesting to the Planetarium in fact!
[13:23]  Ninlil Xeltentat: Prok, I didn't say it was the only way, just mentioned it as an example I frequently utilize.
[13:24]  Rik Riel: See, those maps are ridiculously amazing
[13:24]  Prokofy Neva: I totally understand, my point is that if that's the example you always use, it will not be seen as compelling for everyone, for any NGO, for all kinds of causes
[13:24]  See Haiku: I know ... you can walk into globes and see the maps from all sorts of angles. Really interesting.
[13:24]  Jin Cyberschreiber: wow
[13:25]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: well for general use cases, things like Relay for Life using it as an outreach, support and succesful fundraising tool is probably a better mainstream example
[13:25]  Rik Riel: thanks!, I have the best dance moves that money can buy
[13:25]  Ninlil Xeltentat: well, Prok, perhaps I can get your business card and have you do the sales pitch for me from In World.
[13:25]  Prokofy Neva: Rhiannon, as I always say about RLF, you could raise more in the barber shop in Kenosha, Wisconsis, again, it's not a compelling example which is why after years of SL, we aren't seeing an outpouring of use. It's not there yet, because the use cases aren't being compelling
[13:26]  Rik Riel: I forget. IM me and I can give you the link
[13:26]  scuzzi Jetcity: As a NGO i chose simply to build my own site,its an awareness thing really
[13:26]  Prokofy Neva: Ninlil, the sales pitch for what?
[13:26]  Rik Riel: we're at our time, so I want to release our speakers, who are all quite busy I'm sure!
[13:26]  Gus Plisskin: Prok: I thought RFL collection over $100K in donations one year. That'd be tough to do in a barber shop.
[13:26]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: for SL use cases maybe
[13:26]  Gus Plisskin: *collected
[13:26]  Prokofy Neva: Actually, they pull in that much in some towns in RL by running it out of the barbershop, Gus, and you know that
[13:27]  Rik Riel: but please thank them again, and be in touch with us for future evetns and conversations like this!
[13:27]  Jin Cyberschreiber: thanks again to GK
[13:27]  Gatz Morang: if all the people who hosted RFL events, donating their time and energies for a local fundraiser is raise much more
[13:27]  Prokofy Neva: You have to answer the question: why is SL better than a barber shop in Kenosha, Wisconsin?
[13:27]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: I think this last year's total for Relay for Life donations that were done here within SL with virtual fundraising was a bit over $270,000
[13:27]  See Haiku: Yes, I need to go too but I wnated to thank Amira and Rik. THis was fun.
[13:27]  See Haiku: And very educational.
[13:27]  Jin Cyberschreiber: ditto
[13:27]  See Haiku: I hope you don't hurt yourself Rik, although you seem to be doing okay! :)
[13:27]  Rik Riel: seriously we thought all our groups involved were great!
[13:27]  Rik Riel: and we learned a lot too!
[13:28]  scuzzi Jetcity: keep up the good work Jin
[13:28]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: so yes, maybe for American Cancer Society that isnt a big lump, but for a more grassroots org that they too could have potential for something like that, it is appealing, granted yes takes a huge community buy in
[13:28]  Rik Riel: always fun showing othes how much potential there are in these spaces
[13:28]  Katy Wetherby: Thanks to MacArthur and Global Kids!!
[13:28]  Craig MacFound: Thanks everyone for a great event!
[13:28]  See Haiku: Thanks everyone.
[13:28]  Ninlil Xeltentat: thank you everyone! this was fantastic!
[13:28]  Prokofy Neva: I dont' thikn you can use SL for fund-raising because it is not mass media, unless you get the Lindens to adverties on the MOTD, which of course RLF does
[13:28]  Prokofy Neva: it's an interesting one-off prototype
[13:28]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: nod
[13:28]  Prokofy Neva: but what can a more ordinary thing without the MOTD do even to raise $5000? it's a hard way to try to do that becaues it's not mass media
[13:29]  Katy Wetherby: Thanks to everyone that came today!
[13:29]  Ninlil Xeltentat: I think the whole point of SL is that it can be used for anything if you find the right strategies to accomplish your goals.
[13:29]  Prokofy Neva: I raised let's see...I raised about $4.27 US this week for the independent media struggling in Belarus!
[13:29]  Prokofy Neva: I would have raised more, but my chickens were killed by griefers
[13:29]  scuzzi Jetcity: ~laughs~
[13:29]  scuzzi Jetcity: prof
[13:29]  Ninlil Xeltentat: agreed, Louise
[13:29]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: granted yes.. not something that speaks use case though
[13:29]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: but it beats a barbershop in Kenosha because we simply would never meet in that Barber shop under normal circumstances, it breaks down geography so that connections like other online spaces are not based on it, and that with the extra sense of presence
[13:30]  Rik Riel: thanks Rhiannon for your support, as always
[13:30]  Ninlil Xeltentat: I like SL because people's true personalities shine through, even those that try to hide it. There are so many things that people do and say here that they wouldn't do and say IRL. I sometimes think of SL as a community of Freud's "ids" running around.
[13:31]  Prokofy Neva: yes well I'm all for replicting barbershops online, whether as versimilitude or as alternate realities and putting out tip jars, I have a barber shop in Iris if you want to come and leave a tip for example
[13:31]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: your welcome Rik
[13:31]  any1 Gynoid shouts: in SL we meet each other that the level of fantasy
[13:32]  Prokofy Neva: Actually , SL is just a continuum of RL, Ninlil, it's not some "autonomous zone" or "third place" even, I wuold talk to you exactly the same way if I met you in a cafe in NYC as I would here, it's not like there are really "magical" capacities here.
[13:32]  Rik Riel: that's because you are you, prok
[13:32]  Rik Riel: not everyone is so uninhibited
[13:32]  Gatz Morang: as much as I admire you, Prok...I would never hold you up as an example of the typical =)
[13:33]  Rik Riel: or even free to speak freely in RL
[13:33]  Prokofy Neva: well, life is short, then you die, Rik
[13:33]  Prokofy Neva: no need for pretenses, the grant money will run out, and you will have to get a new grant, so it has to be good
[13:33]  Rik Riel: indeed
[13:33]  Rik Riel: good, and visibly good
[13:33]  Gatz Morang: that's what I come to these discussions to hear - and never do...how could you make a business case for SL?
[13:34]  Rik Riel: a for profit business?
[13:34]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: yes, I am more akin to you Prok in I am me across all spheres, but as Rik mentions, most come here and with that sense of community and presence regardless of geography paired with anonymity if they so choose, it can often be a place to experiment, play, learn and reach beyond wht they might be able to in RL
[13:34]  Prokofy Neva: yes Rhiannon, that's all true
[13:34]  Alexjo Magic: thats so true
[13:34]  Gatz Morang: for-profit/non-profit...doesn't matter. Everything you could do in SL could be done in a more effective way using other tools
[13:35]  Ninlil Xeltentat: Prok, I'm the exact same person IRL as I am in SL, minus a few fancy glowie accesories. but for those that i have met on here, there are a lot of people that are shy IRL that just blossom here, and I think that it is beautiful.
[13:35]  Rik Riel: I don't agree gatz.
[13:35]  Prokofy Neva: Foundations want to show impact, they are more and more becoming like businesses and demanding grantees be like little entrepreneurs and prepare 90 day impact studies and behave as if they are in a harsh darwinistic market, and that's good as far as it goes, I guess but philanthrophy itself needs to be revisited.
[13:35]  Rik Riel: Mixed reality events are qualitatively different and sometimes better than real world events for example
[13:36]  Rik Riel: machinima is a cheaper and more engaging way of making films than using RL tools
[13:36]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: I agre Ninlil, or people who may have limited RL capabilities due to disabilities, etc who can live out pieces of themselves more fully too.. that is also beautiful
[13:36]  Rik Riel: VWs taht bring together various technologies aren't like anything else out there
[13:37]  Gatz Morang: maybe that's the sticking point...I don't know what the VW part of the equation really adds
[13:37]  Rik Riel: that's why we use them wiht our kids at Global Kids, along with many other media

[13:37]  Ninlil Xeltentat: Gatz, it is the fact that we can all sit here and be presented to, instead of doing video conferencing and having to click on links and read documents, etc.
[13:37]  Rik Riel: trust me, you can't get our teens to be interested in paleontology, evolution and biology using traditional methods.
[13:37]  Gatz Morang: this conference would have gone more smoothly and taken less time if it were a plain old voice or video conference
[13:37]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: my best random SL beautifulo moment was helping a random newbie at the SL educators expo LL put on several months back when she was looking for someone from the Virtual Ability Group and I directed her to a few group resources.. to then find out she was accessing SL with a mouth pen and was quadrepalegic and was obviously excited to be able to interact fully
[13:38]  Prokofy Neva: actually, no Gatz. I am in those telephone and video conferences all the time, they glitch up, people fall asleep, etc
[13:38]  Prokofy Neva: they are just as technically distracting
[13:39]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: possibly Gatz, but the point is that they are exploring this medium and what could be done with it and then yes they could report back in a skype call, but to have them share their thoughts in midst of one of the mediums makes it a bit richer
[13:39]  Rik Riel: I ned to get back to my other Global Kids responsibilities
[13:39]  Ninlil Xeltentat: but Gatz, would we be having this conversation right now if we just did it the normal way? I think that by now we would have hung up the phone or turned off the video and sat there laughing about someone chewing loudly through the speaker during the meeting.
[13:39]  Gatz Morang: okay, okay...several people surrounding me here are asleep, btw =)
[13:39]  Rik Riel: But I apprecaite everyones insights and honesty
[13:39]  Rik Riel: this is why GK keeps coming back to SL
[13:39]  Gatz Morang: that is a valid point, Nin...this type post-event chat might be exactly the value
[13:39]  Gus Plisskin: Ninlil: yes, we'd all be wondering which os us had been eating the popcorn :)
[13:39]  Prokofy Neva: Gatz, some people just don't avatarize, they hate investing their consciousness in a character they see as a puppet. And they don't like the sense of a loss of control in a platform where not geeks control it by making people queue up to them, or by running everything, but ordinary people access the tools and build and put out scripts and such. So it's not for everybody. The question is to take those who did adapt to it and see: can they make anything useful for the real world with it or not? If not, keep it as an exotic toy and develop it, if so, then extend that out
[13:39]  Gus Plisskin: *of us
[13:40]  Rik Riel: take care all!
[13:40]  Prokofy Neva: the reality is, there are 50 million people or more world wide in virtual worlds some of them as many as 50 hours a week, in World of Warcraft, in Habbo, in those kinds of spaces, and in SL, even 1.5 million uniques. So what will happe to those people? Will they become a civil society or a decivilizing force on the planet? It's about big questions like that.
[13:40]  Gus Plisskin: Rik: cheers :)
[13:41]  Rik Riel: last one out, turn out the lights!
[13:41]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: take care Rik :)
[13:41]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: lol
[13:41]  Gatz Morang: thanks for the event, Rik...keep up the good work!
[13:41]  Prokofy Neva: Right now, the sherpas are in the way of getting at the larger philosophical questions because they are gatekeepers, the Solutions Providers have an enormous amount invested financially and it's hard to get around their culture and their take on this. But that will change.
[13:41]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: yes as always this after chat is a good part of the event
[13:41]  Gus Plisskin: bye all. great meeting Rhiannon.
[13:41]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: thanks :)
[13:41]  Prokofy Neva: I have to go wait on a customer. Thanks for the show, Rhiannon!
[13:41]  Prokofy Neva: bye Rik
[13:41]  Rhiannon Chatnoir: take care
[13:41]  Rik Riel: bye prok!

- Instant message logging enabled --
Gus Plisskin: I know that? wow, I'm usually impressed with your telepathic ability, but this time you might have it wrong.
Prokofy Neva: Oh, no, not at all. You guys are lame trotting out that very worn chesnut of RLF each time someone needs a reason "why SL for my nonprofit" it's stupid
Prokofy Neva: I can find 50 examples of RL towns that raise these large amounts in ways that are more meaningful than having you and your Linden friends run a bunch of SL events
Prokofy Neva: it's great you do it; it's not a recipe for anyone but you, so you should stop being misleading
Prokofy Neva: in part, you dine out on old media covering you doing this
Gus Plisskin: I don't recall ever mentioning RFL to a client. Define meaningful and to whom. Accusing me or my company of misleading people. Do you ever fact check?
Gus Plisskin: and, I've yet to dine out on any media coverage's nickel
Prokofy Neva: oh stop being such a pompous ass
Prokofy Neva: you are defending RFL NOW in this conversation DUH
Prokofy Neva: you are misleading people IN THIS CHAT by making thees claims about RFL
Prokofy Neva: so stop it
Prokofy Neva: you and your vaunted clients, you are such a pretentious ass Gus, stop it
Gus Plisskin: And you, Madam, are a liar and self-appointed, self-important jerk who bitches about everything in sight.
Prokofy Neva: Um, I haven't lied about anything, dearie. You are misleading people if you claim that this pumped up Linden-supported FIC concoction every year called RLF is something that will work for any nonprofit, it will NOT.

Comments

[Anon]

(1) Hindsight is 20/20
(2) Anyone who did it your way (spend months hammering out these details) would have lost to the one in a hundred competitors who by sheer chance would have gotten it right.

[Prokofy Neva]

You need a valid first and last SL or RL name here to post, you can't post anonymously.
Um, what competitors? Where? You mean, um, there.com? Multiverse.com? Croquet? Where? What?

There weren't any; there aren't any. And...what is this *for* anyway? Just to make a toy for a company? Or to make a viable utility?

You wouldn't lay a railroad this way. Why lay a virtual world this way?

[Corsi Mousehold]

Hindsight is 20/20, because that can't be said enough.

The other thing I get from this is that you think design should be a civil process in order to work. Can you show the transcripts where Sea wouldn't engage you civilly, before you started insulting her?

[Prokofy Neva]

Um, let's start by having you show me the transcript where you falsely abuse-report me to the Lindens and get me booted from Concierge, and then brag about it to your little e-friends, Mousie.

[Desmond Shang]

There are only two places a virtual world is going to come from:

a) hobbyists, people who just love it for the sake of it, opensource guys, &c. Cool as this is, the last 20 years is solid proof that no virtual world gains acceptance by the masses this way. Opensourcers are busy modding Second Life and other game engines that were made by...

b) Investors with an eye for making money. Via corporations.

So, why would any company make a virtual world.

There's only one reason. Virtual worlds monetise users like almost nothing else out there.

People spend money like water in them. It's not farmville. Yes, it's 'reasonable' to a lot of people, to spend 100+ USD/month on their virtual world experience.

So, ok fine, the company does it for the money.

Business plan time: who are your customers, really, and what do they want?

Whatever it is, it's going to have to cost the end users a fair bit of money, on average. As the providing corporation won't go forward on hopes and dreams alone. And with that fair bit of money, will come a fair bit of expectations.

* * * * *

There's no starting over.

Even a company completely and utterly independent of Linden Research would have to deal with SL's past, its conventions and biases. Like it or not. Because that's what people know and will compare it to.

Like the Latin language, the main grid is a very significant predecessor to all that will come later. It's not the first, but it's the one that matters. Even if you have never personally experienced the main grid, its primacy will act as a baseline, and its early adopters will quickly spread into future worlds. And frame the discussion for the 'untouched users' for decades to come.

As such, civilisation has to begin here and now.

You can't expect a functional, just society to simply spring into being, magically, when online culture has been defined by 'clans' and 'tribes' for about as long as anyone can remember. And it's not completely the technology's fault; that's a red herring and usually a flimsy excuse to avoid tackling the hard questions.

[cube3]

one day i may really tell what the late 80s early 90s was like trying to first show the future of virtuality--worlds style- to the gangs of ny...;)

against the waves of jaron and his mattel hacked data gloves and love machines of then, some of us who had no particualr investment in anyones particualr techn/ technical solutions... did try to make it- humans first.

we lost
we continue to loose.
now all you get to repeat that loss ..but as you aid onece before Prok. does it get better?..

well this time, you HAD the "how do we make this tech work for us? disccusion is a virtual dam lodge , rather than one fo the first coffee houses with a net connection in NYCs lower east side.;) or even a bit earlier in my apartment on the upper east side somewhere.

and desmons.. at one time its the humans faults.. but technoogy becomes a media, and ina sence a child. and eventually the child IS responsable for burying the parent.

later. i gott go celebrate the networking of two humans on their 50th ann.

[Darien Caldwell]

"In other words, instead of doing everything ass-backwards, I would first make the rules of the world, then make the world fit them -- after all, it is a virtual world, and you should be able to do that!!!"

That's correct. I work in technical design field. If I or anyone were to start designing, say, a microprocessor without first having laid out a plan (rules) for what we were designing, we would be given the boot out the door.

Of course, that doesn't mean plans can't change. But sometimes you either have to say no to changes, or start over. It's a judgement call.

Over the years, I can see that LL's biggest issue is the fact they simply can't decide what they want SL to be. They constantly lay down design, then turn around and rip it back up, laying kludge over kludge, adding features, removing features, doing 180 degree policy turns, all the while getting nowhere.

Until LL can settle on a goal, and set a course for that goal with determination and focus, they will continue flailing around impotently, and we will continue to suffer for it.

[brinda Allen]

Maybe it's important to think about we as customers (or residents if you like), are a moving target.
Personally in any situation a lot of what I desire from anyone or any company is what I perceive they can provide... and the more a company gives the more I ask/want.
I would agree with you Prok, and Desmond, a plan is necessary.

I believe Phillip had a dream and dreamers don't necessarily make great plans... particulary when they don't know where the dream will head. (Hmm...20/20 hindssight?)

[Ann Otoole InSL]

If we could start over? If I could go back 30 years and not made a key decision. And then 25 years ago when I made another stupid decision. And then 4 years ago when I made another stupid decision. And then the decision to log into SL? Had I never made that decision I would still have a good job and not be unemployable.

So yes if we could go back and change the time line and everyone not be making stupid decisions based on emotion and dreams then everyone would be better off right?

[Desmond Shang]

A plan is necessary.

But it will be a business plan.

At least until a large, organised group of people are willing to foot the bill for platform development. Which I don't see happening for a long, long time.

[Darien Caldwell]

"Maybe it's important to think about we as customers (or residents if you like), are a moving target. "

People are a pretty predictable target, if they can be called one. All people have basic wants and needs, and as long as you satisfy some of those, you're golden.

Especially in LL's case, we constantly lay at their feet precisely what we want, and what we need. And yet, they always head in the opposite direction.

I've honestly never seen a company so adept at satisfying *none* of their key segments. I keep trying to figure out why they seek to do this, as it just *can't* be by accident. Even the worst company succeeds in pleasing someone, sometimes.

[Desmond Shang]

>>"I've honestly never seen a company so adept at satisfying *none* of their key segments. I keep trying to figure out why they seek to do this, as it just *can't* be by accident."

The answer is in your question.

"We" can't be the key segments.

They need a breakout success. A ridiculous amount of money was put into this company, in pre~recession times. Dating back to the dot com era, originally.

As cool as the tech is, and as much as it was "nice" for these big investors to lay their money on the line... it's to be expected that they are looking for returns. It's a company, not a charity.

There are no phenomenally big returns to be had, from the present customer base. Oh, it's a fairly solid business, even now, but nobody dumps that kind of money into a project for "meh" returns.

It's kind of like the big city boy in a small town. "Why can't you just be happy being our hardware store owner, why do you have to try to be Home Depot? That's not making any of your customers happy!"

And yet... someone is gonna end up being the national superstore chain, as the alternative is searching for Uncle Fred's lawnmower parts on aisle four, every Saturday. And going to the Town Hall meeting about the parking situation on Main Street, rather than going to the board meeting to crush competitors on Wall Street.

This is on a bigger scale than most people bother to think about. It's about big money and big investments and size as a strategy, and generally not a strategy of expansion, from small town Mayberry to small town Mayberry, one small store at a time.

Is this the right approach? Is it too late? Is the timing (during a recession) just wrong? I won't bother to get into all that.

But if you are wondering about strategy, that's what I see going on. This is on a level that's above virtual world enthusiasts, coder geeks, management or even the board. It's about leveraging, and breakout success.

And it still could happen. Hey, look what Steve Jobs did for tablet computers, a decades long technology backwater that was essential to no one, until it became 'cool.'

[Erin Lubitsch]

Reading the comments on your blog on political, social, and cultural issues in Second Life, I notice most of your material reflects an underlying belief that somehow things were better once and that with just a little effort we could set them right again. You are looking for solutions, and rooting for particular results, and I think that necessarily limits the tone and substance of what you say. Your messages are lost in an avalanche of poorly chosen words arranged in to misdirected thoughts.

Furthermore, this manifestation that Linden Labs takes concern to your clarification on frivolous issues is inane. Linden Labs' burden is to be remunerative to their parent company not to appease the gauche blogger.

How does LL continue to be profitable?

1. Keep their product available (Grid up time)
2. Reducing their operating costs

Your band-aids to decay and disintegration of this digital culture are astonishingly amusing. What may sound to some like anger is really nothing more than sympathetic contempt towards you. I view your blog with a combination of wonder and pity, and I root for its destruction.

P.S. Least you wonder if I read the entire blog entry. No, I did not. I dropped off to sleep before the end....

[Extropia DaSilva]

>I mean *not* having the technology drive the virtual world at all.<

Reminds me of something a spokesperson for IBM said to Tim Guest (author of 'Second Lives'):

"I think a lot of the complexity in IT is because systems and apps have really grown from the machine up. We do our machines, we do middleware, we do apps, then we put in a thin layer of human interface...If we don't worry about managing the complexity, we may have all this technology that frustrates people".

[Aven Yfokorp]

On Twitter just now

"Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing" ~ Shakespeare from that Scottish play, personally I'm certain he wrote it only about @Prokofy

[Sportsbook Writer]

Honestly, you need to sart over in both RL and SL Prokofy. Here are a few idea that may help you become acceptable:

1. Stop being a BITCH!
2. Stop being anoying!
3. Stop talking over people!
4. Start listening more!
5. Start acting like a human!
6. Start being nice!

See you in Boston!

[Maggie Darwin (@MaggieL)]

"They weren't tekkies or geeks. They were just the sort of liberal or progressive types you'd expect to be fetched up in a MacArthur program."

Indeed. Or something Soros-funded.

Seems Prok dreams of a world where the Levers of Power are constructed first, so The Collective (as ably represented by Her Nibs) has them firmly in control before the workers...excuse me, the nasty unwashed commmie hippie geeks who actually build things but Don't Know Their Proper Place as Mechanics of Prok's World) come in to be told what things to build.

At this stage at least, VWs don't fit a Marxist model where the means of production can be seized on behalf of The People. Unfortunately or not it's a more Randian world where we discover John Galt is also The Little Red Hen.

So we did.

[Darien Caldwell]

""We" can't be the key segments.
They need a breakout success."

If that's true, LL is being incredibly short sighted. The big dogs in the Social Media industry deal with 'us small fry' users all the time, to the count of 400-600 million.

If LL made us small frys their priority and pleased us, they could have 400-600 million of us too.

Instead they keep waiting for Some Demigod to fall into their laps, bringing with it unlimited profits, while another 11,000 small frys slip through their fingers every day...

They really can't be that short sighted, can they?

[Axiomatic Clarity]

The vast majority of SL users are deeply dependent from the platform on a psychological level... so much they sport a blurred vision of LL as a charismatic entity and not as a company. If these customers were indeed true customers and not dependents on dope to this otherwise mediocre and in many ways obsolete product... if they were... SL would be now perhaps a better place.

[Prokofy Neva]

Yeah, I can see the usual suspects from the geek tribe howling here because I have the temerity to suggest that they and their hacker culture is not the basis for a world society, but only one aspect of it. No surprise there!

That awful little mangina thug Maggie is first of all, trying to bully by invoking real-life information. Um, #fail.

Then, he imagines that my idea works just like his idea of the world. He wants an insular and unaccountable tribe of coders to run the world, so if anyone objects to that, he projects upon them a notion that they are merely *another* tribe of unaccountable power-mongers, only this time, the Soros-funded NGOs of the world who influence politics.

Well, that's stupid, because I don't represent them, and am among their major critics, if anyone bothers to read my other blogs or knows me at conferences in RL, which of course, they don't, and that's fine, who needs stalkers.

My proposal isn't about rounding up NGOs from liberal foundations and running things in the usual "progressive" socialist-style "planning committee. No thank you. Not interest.

In fact, precisely because those types of people in fact gravitate towards accepting the premise of the wikitarian tekkie unchallenged that I wouldn't be for setting them up as the wise council to rule the world.

I think it's pretty clear from my notions expressed here that I'm trying to find not one group of people, or even, as I clearly noted, in precisely the same vein as Maggie would (if he were in good will, but of course, he isn't), that fake "all walks of life" that the liberal produces, and then produces people from "all walks of life" only that suit their ideologies.

Rather, I'm trying to find principles that could be constructed that might satisfy multiple competing constituencies, you know, like in a real democracy?

I don't suggest any levers of control be first seized; I suggest they first be taken away from those who seize them and more democratically placed. And Desmond has very pragmatically indicated who could do this, realistically: those with the money to bother with starting a virtual world from scratch. I don't imagine there are many takers. Perhaps, some smaller world, with a smaller less ambitious company, however, that is more interested in getting governance right ("the JIRA" or "the forums") than this or that scrum cult dogma.

I'm not intrested in Randian cultism, either, which, of course Maggie attributes to anyone who criticizes the Marxism of the singularist tech cults and the software cults themselves that run our lives with the amalgam of anarcho-communism and collectivist libertarianism, if you can imagine such a thing, and indeed, that's what Linden Lab is often like in its ideological decision. And of course, Maggie would rather have people like that from his tribe, even if he would be critical of Marxism, and there's no guarantee he would be, just out of spite.

And in fact, by never really critiquing Marxism and collectivist tribal tekkie dogma, and in fact always pointing to its opposite as "only" possible from Randian quarters, Maggie does more to seal in the tekkie Real Politik than they could ever do themselves.

He's also fucking *stupid*, which is what happens when in fact bile and spite blind you -- which is why people accuse me of being blinded by bile and spite -- that being a description of their own state.

I'm describing a group of people who got together because they were paid to do so in a grant. I'm not advocating such grant-giving and foundation-rule as a basis for society -- I don't think it is. I'm describing *what is*. And how these people, contrary to tekkies who approach the problem of "how can I build shiny?", look at the proposition.

But, oh, well, some of my blogs just go over people's heads.

[cube3]

the major dilemna is that the "atart overs" are now so entrenched in global corporate media --now that the tech banker billions(the social network) are cool-- is that Google/Verizon and others will make sure the future virtual networked globe will not foster any civic democracy.

SL want the first virtual world by any means, but the ill it does, will be the model for the larger offerings to come.

Strangely today I received an email from Kaneva...talkign about-- somthing...anyone remeber them..? blah blah.. and i asli noticed shile now back from an unplugged weekend tha GAME changer- dusans MYWORLD has had its developement team laid off before I guess ,we the world, ever got..er changed..lol

and so it goes.
i guess it took centuries to get a american democracy, and since geek/machine /money culture has no past, we can forget it all and just let the reinvented wheels of digital media, take us through the dark ages and such all over again.