More Search Wrongly than Rightly at Kitely

So, continuing on in my alternative virtual worlds adventures.

As Kitely developer Ilan told me -- or rather admitted in a roundabout way after he was drilled on this -- Imprudence isn't recommended for Kitely (despite being recommended by one of his top sim designers!) because *the search doesn't work*.

Here's what he said in response to my complaint:

As stated previously, please stop evaluating Kitely using old viewers. Use Firestorm, Catznip, Dolphin, Exodus, Kokua, Nirans, RLV, Teapot, or even a relatively modern version of Imprudence (1.4 b2). Insisting on using an old v1 viewer that has problems loading the world map or doing searches on OpenSim-based grids says nothing about the quality of those grids. Evaluate us using Firestorm (which is currently the most popular viewer in SL) then judge.

OK, as I said, I refuse to load anything made by Emerald/Phoenix/Firestorm on to my computer -- ever -- and only reluctantly use these other ones, but you have to use the TPVs, now that SL does not work on alternative worlds anymore since August 2012 when the Lindens closed them off for various reasons.

In fact, I had the latest Imprudence download that I went to get after the Heresy dev said to use that for seeing her world on Kitely (she also has some other interesting worlds).

Since Kokua is merely an offshot of Imprudence, and since Teapot, which has a cute name, does not have a clear download link (its wonkly page at that link has lots of other downloads and remarks but does not have a clear download link *for the viewer on Windows -- oh, unless it's only for Linux), I went to the first one on the list, Catznip, although the loathsome Trinity Dejavu was involved with it.

So Catznip is basically just the viewer 3 from Linden Lab -- same interface, same stuff.

So I load up the search -- which has the Second Life Destinations in it which of course won't work -- thinking -- because Ilan said so -- I'd at least get it to search Kitely.

It doesn't.

It gives you Second Life locations. For example, if you search "starship" you will find C3 -- but in SL, not on the Kitely grid.

So I tried plugging in the exact name of a sim I knew to be only in Kitely and not SL -- Heresy of Intimacy -- and it wasn't there.

As for people searches, I got this strange "Unknown grey person" result. I IM'd it -- thinking maybe Cube3 inside Kitely might get it. But these dopplegangers are odd -- somebody's going to have to get them sorted out.

It really seems inconsiderate and stupid to have your search load up with SL Destinations and other SL stuff -- and not work with the world you're in.

I visited the lovely Myst-like world Eoliah mindful that I was going to turn into a pumpkin any minute -- I should have a pumpkin head on this grid as my minutes run out.

This world loaded lots, lots more slower than worlds did on Imprudence. It wasn't just this sim -- which, like all Kitely worlds I've seen now didn't use a fraction of its prims. It was the viewer. I tried visiting several islands, they all loaded grey and you had to wait. I really don't mind. But I see now why the Heresy designer recommended Imprudence.

Lovely world of Eoliah, after viewer loaded for five minutes.

Search is a mess -- it's giving me Second Life's search. How can it even draw that data from SL servers, I wonder?! I mean, it's a separate grid, no? I don't get this...

I'll say this about Catznip -- it's showing worlds on the grid -- a string of them -- that Imprudence didn't show at the full zoom out. BUT that may only be a function of the location of Eoliah on the grid -- as distinct from the other related worlds or as distinct from C3's starship world where there may have been no nearby sims.

Island hopping is not for the faint-hearted -- most of them say "You are not allowed" or "Invalid". I finally  to a place called Fantasy OAR. Now that's a lovely poetic name for a world, eh? Fantasy OAR. No boats included LOL. Here's the SLURL I grabbed from this world.  Oops, that probably can't work. Because a SL obviously goes to SL, right! So that automatic URL grab isn't from Kitely. That's how all these viewers mislead you, I've discovered, all over the Knock-Off-Verse -- they all load up stuff from SL that isn't "there". Geeks tune this out as noise as they develop their nerdy stuff. But it's a huge obstacle for ordinary people.

Heresy, which exists only in Kitely, isn't there. CATZNIP SEARCH DOESN'T WORK IN KITELY.

So Ilan is incorrect. Search doesn't work on the first viewer on the list he said it would work in. I think he means it only works with Firestorm because he likes that best and a lot of customers already have it from Second Life viewing. If so, he should say so and stop misleading customers.

I don't know if this grey stand-in for cube is cube in SL or cube in Kitely? I wonder where/if/when he will get my message?

Lovely Fantasy OAR build...but to be honest? I don't know how to get you back there as the SLURL is a SLURL and not a KURL.

So let me go back to that lovely Public Worlds search page at Kitely *cough*.

Hard to tell which one is Fantasy OAR because there are a number with the same name, but it's this one by Atlanta Campese I recall the name. Put pictures on your public worlds, people! Or you won't get as much traffic!

She even has a Facebook profile. If I "like" her world on her page, it shows up in my Facebook stream.

You also want to be careful in Kitely landmarking, it landmarks things generically as they are all named, oddly, YOUR PARCEL. Maybe they will take you back to where you were with the coordinates, but good luck finding it again by name. It's like Object being named Object in your inventory. You have to manually rename it.

 

There's a lot to wrestle with at Kitely. Even so, the performance of the sims is good, better than the half dozen other worlds I've been to lately. It's like SL, so the transition isn't so hard. The price is right. But how I would find interesting content, friends, and most importantly, customers -- well, that's a crap shoot.

 

 

Comments

[c3]

i use both impudence and now --even with the checked past.. firestorm... which i like since it allows shadows, movies textures to play, and even meshes..

the reality is that none of these viewers in made by kitely, so therefore this is all about "patchwork quilting" and who does the actual work....

i dont expect kitely to be a " turn key product" like the one SL eveolved/devoloved..lol. into years ago.

it is a 2 man shop...

my isp has been a 2 man shop too for the last 15 years/.

if i ever get the time /resourses to truly build out a OS based C3 Starship Universe.... i really dont want to be "connected" to any other "sims/islands/shops" etc....

connection should be about agreements, meeting of minds,, not apis written one weekend in a college code lab hackathon, and released uncaged into the ether.

one day more will see what i say as "true".. and stop listening to metapundits who seem ever day to make bank like Lance Armstrong did.
narratives are for pussies.

[Ilan Tochner]

Hi Prok,

As I did state in my previous replies to you (should I quote them here? :-)) some viewers are hard coded to go to SL for various things. I guess Catznip falls under that category. Honstly, I haven't checked it more than to verify that our plugin can correctly load it if it detects that you have it installed and don't have Firestorm installed as well.

Firestorm, which is by far the most popular viewer in SL and Kitely, works just fine with Kitely. Your mileage may vary if you use something else.

Imprudence renders certain things faster than Firestorm while it is unable to render other things that Firestorm can render without a problem. It's your choice what viewer you use but we recommend you use Firesotrm and that is the viewer we provide new users that don't have any of the viewers that the Kitely Plugin supports already installed.

You might not be able to use the world map to easily finds worlds for which you have access but searching the Public Worlds page can help you find new places to visit.

I completely agree with your recommendation for people to add a good inworld image to their world pages. I also suggest that world managers provide a good description for what their worlds contain so that our search engine will be able to return their worlds when people search for related things.

Contacting other Kitely users can be done by visiting world pages and sending world managers whose worlds you liked an IM (you can easily send IMs to world managers from the Kitely site by clicking their name under the World Manager section of a world page).

You can find other active Kitely users who you aren't connected to yet on Kitely's Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/Kitely.Virtual.Worlds

On our support forums: https://getsatisfaction.com/kitely

And on the user-managed user forums: http://kiteflying.vanillaforums.com

As for customers, if you add a good world description and image to your world then you'll get some traffic without marketing offsite. There are some world managers who are "making tier" this way. However, the best way is to use third-party blogs, sites and social media channels to promote your worlds, goods and services.

[Prokofy Neva]

c3, I don't need shadows. In fact, whenever I have to put on shadows to get a good picture and forget to turn them off, they creep me out. I don't want shadows. Why should ideal virtuality have shadows? It's an affectation and for me it diminishes performance.

As for "allowing movie textures to play" -- oh dear, are you saying that without Firestorm, there are no movies off the land in Kitely?

Of course, I don't think there's group land in Kitely (I'll have to check, Open Sim was very slow with this I recall), and that means rentals of the kind I do of small parcels become impossible to do, i.e. with group-set prims, non-group return, and deeding media.

But with media-on-a-prim, can't we just put the media on a prim, not have it moved through the land menu? or?

While you come to my blog every day and you are generally supportive except when you have some spasm (like the time you insulted me because I...left you a tip when you seemed to be going through difficulties), you are objectively speaking, the enemy. That is, it's not personal, but as a craftsman sort of prosumer developer, you are closer to the class of grid developers than not, and they are a big problem for consumers.

We have yet to get our Microsoft of virtual worlds. When we have Worlds for Windows, we will have a better Metaverse. But that may never happen.

So we get what we get. And I totally get it that Ilan is not as culty and clutchy as some, and has a minimum of drama in his shop. And given that the sims are high-prim and high performance, it's a great place to flee SL for.

But he isn't trying to serve as the place to land after the Great Exodus from SL. He's just a garage -- and a garage band. And his literalism and geeky superiority on display here are the same hobble as they are everywhere -- maybe he has a little bit more willing to listen and incorporate valid experience of users, but it's minimal.

Of course, he doesn't need to do that if all he does is just lay out a bunch of sims. But I think there's everything to gain from debating hard the whole "on demand" model -- and I will do more of that, because we never get criticism, only tech sales promotion from Maria Korolov's Hypergrid stuff.

And if search doesn't work, how will you sell your starships? Maybe that isn't your goal now.

When I say "you're the enemy," I mean that your class or guild interest is to have free tools and not have the grid owner get in your face. And frankly, if that means offsetting the cost of visitation to the user or oligarchs, you could care less, as a class interest. I get that. How and who pays for your visitors is immaterial.

But given that the use-case of migration from another virtual world is going to entail LOTS of look-see visits, I have to think hard about that impediment.

I still don't understand after all these years what your beef is. That the grid owners don't let you cost-free sell your creations, but demand tier or commissions or fealty in some other way? Ok, but who pays then?

[c3]

1. i never insulted you for giving me a tip.. i thanked you. and i beleive it was a pity fee for realife stuff.. thats ok to. i bought some food for that day with it.

2. i despise "free tools" and only desire "fairly priced tools" and "no hidden "drama" agendas.. and spoke and wrote about the failures to come for many from digital tools becoming services models/mediums over 20 years ago.

3. i have no "beef" about grid owners. i have no beef against Wendys either... but both enterprises have had there share of crappy "franchise leaders"

4. my "goals" for virtual worlds has been the same since 1992. The fact that for 20 years i need to cycle through "new kids and new truths" that always seem to end the same... AKA Zynga and Bigpoints announcements today..and SL from 06-09,
is sad. and pathetic.

5. anyhow. Im always right on this stuff..

[cube3]

was my last post(reply) axed?. please double check.

2nd one in 2 days....

[Prokofy Neva]

I don't see any other posts

Of course you insulted me, cube, by leering that I must be giving a tip for the "adult porn" or some stupid-ass comment like that. I realize that you're kind of dysfunctional and things like that are a kind of nervous tic. But it's stupid when all I've done is given you a tip, not out of pity, but because it seemed I owed you one, given all your helpful work on CCC and all your comments here. That's all.

I guess the reason that geeks had to make digital tools like Maya or even Second Life so expensive because they have to keep their clan in power and ensure a revenue stream. Software by its nature is copyiable and hackable. So that's what they do.

I think there could be a debate about what is a tool and what is a platform. Linden Lab in fact has its suite of tools reasonably priced -- they're free! You can come inworld and build anything in a sandbox. They make the minimal land you need very low cost -- and of course you can go on the Marketplace for commissions only.

What they do charge for is the creation of a sense of place; serendipity; customers; search, etc. That is a lot. But it seems fair to me.

I'm sure you are right about many things. I just wish you were more coherent.

[c3]

the post did make it through.. but only after the following one asking about it. your comments are directed to that "missing" post... so

1. porn? i have no idea what youre talking about. i wish i had porn to sell via paypal.

2. "free" is not a price. it only extorts one. Why software tools are the priced the way they are is a long discussion. And so is the real semantics of "tools" vs "mediums" and what is the affect of both.

3. my coherence online comes at and with a cost.

[Prokofy Neva]

Here's what you wrote:

http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2012/05/sunglass-is-a-second-life-killer.html

"maybe i should have done cam porn for old ladies...;) but cie la vie"

And then a second time again somewhere else.

Gosh, I never heard of incoherence as a loss-leader, but makes sense I guess!